The difference between the death penalty and abortion

mikepegg44

Dirtie_Frank wrote:

SCB,

So with your argument it is the woman's body then there should be no laws regaurding drugs then. It is my body let me do what I please.

that is exactly right...A person should be able to do drugs. Why is it my right to tell someone they cannot do heroin, cocaine, marijuana, any of that? they can do whatever they want...it doesn't hurt me

CJMST3K

scb wrote:

CJMST3K wrote:

unsung wrote:

scb, when does that thing growing inside of the woman actually become a living human in your eyes?

scb made it clear. Based on its first breath and seeing light and being able to interact. In that one-second, it becomes a person, and literally not a second earlier.

...that's a completely arbitrary way of determining if it's a "person" if you ask me.

And yet you haven't answered my question about when, and by what less arbitrary standard, you think a fertilized egg becomes a person.

I don't recall you asking that question. Can you repost the question, just so I know where I missed it?

And to (try) to answer the questions, I'd say a fertilized egg becomes a "person" once brain activity begins, which is certainly less arbitrary.

Dirtie_Frank

SCB earlier you said that a child is not a consequence. I agree, but if people have sex and produce a child it is their responsability to bring the child up. Having an abortion for no other reason is bullshit. The only way, in my opinion, that would be resonable is if there is rape, incest, or risk of death to the mom. That too should only be done within the first trimester.

Jason P

The following link to the Mayo Clinic breaks down infant development. I learned some things (such as the egg isn't fertilized until 3 weeks after conception). Check it out http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/prenatal-care/PR00112

Other highlights


Week 5 – The embryonic period begins

Week 8 - Movement begins

Week 14 – Baby’s sex becomes apparent

Week 16 – Facial expressions are possible

Week 18 – Baby begins to hear

Week 21 – Baby can swallow

Week 24 – Real hair grows (and w/ intensive medical care, some babies born this week may be able to survive

Week 28 – Baby’s eyes open

Week 32 – Baby practices breathing

Week 33 – Baby detects light

Week 37 – Baby is full-term

Week 40 – Oven timer goes off.

JonnyPistachio

"Unborn babies at 20 weeks development actually feel pain more intensely than adults. This is a "uniquely vulnerable time, since the pain system is fully established, yet the higher level pain-modifying system has barely begun to develop," according to Dr. Paul Ranalli.
http://www.gargaro.com/fetalpain.html

"Having administered anesthesia for fetal surgery, I know that on occasion we need to administer anesthesia directly to the fetus, because even at these early gestational ages the fetus moves away from the pain of the stimulation," stated David Birnbach, M.D., president of the Society for Obstetric Anesthesia and Perinatology and self-described as "pro-choice," in testimony before the U.S. Congress.

scb wrote:

2. A fetus does not have a conscious will to live.

The death penalty, on the other hand, kills a person against his/her will.

So, if a fetus is able to feel pain and have the reaction to move away from it, does it not have the will to survive? under this logic, I think it is killing a fetus against his/her will.

I'm sorry but I am much more prone to kill a convicted murderer (and i am against the DP) than an innocent unborn child that can feel pain.

know1

scb wrote:

know1 wrote:

scb wrote:

I'm starting this thread so the death penalty thread doesn't get hijacked talking about abortion.

Two of the primary differences between the death penalty and abortion are:

1. A fetus is not a person.

2. A fetus does not have a conscious will to live.

The death penalty, on the other hand, kills a person against his/her will.

What's scary is both points you mentioned are not based in fact and they are opinion only.

Therefore, people are willing to potentially murder based upon opinion.

Sad.

I will agree that the death penalty and abortion are two completely different things and do not merit comparisons. I find them equally repulsive and pathetic, however.

So you think fertilized egg is an actively thinking, self-aware, person? Really?? You think a "person" can possess conscious self-awareness and will without a brain? Because I'm pretty sure scientific fact tells us they can't.

Did I say that's what I thought? You're projecting more into my statement or questions than I stated. Take it at face value.

know1

scb wrote:

know1 wrote:

The whole pro-choice/anti-abortion, etc., argument is just semantics designed to make people feel better about their own opinions.

The argument...and the ONLY argument is about what defines a person/human/life. This is what needs to be determined.

For example, to the so-called "pro-choice" people, all you have to do is ask what choice does the baby have. As soon as you do, they say they do not believe it is a person yet. See - the issue is not about choice. It's about the definition of a person.

I completely disagree. It's a lot more complicated than you want to make it out to be, and obviously you haven't been listening when people have explained their position to you. If you disagree, fine. But don't misrepresent the position of others.

A fetus is not a person and is not capable of having a conscious will to live or not live. So your question about the fetus's choice is completely irrelevent. You can't fault pro-choice people for your irrelevant, nonsensical question.

The definition of personhood shows us that fetuses are not analagous to people on death row and they are not capable of making a choice. But it's not all about the definition of personhood. It's a LOT more complicated than that. It's amazing to me that you can't understand that.

As it is amazing to me that you don't see that it's all a question of when life begins and we wouldn't be having this debate if that starting point was a given. Therefore, in the absence of certainty, why take the chance of murder?

Jason P

scb wrote:

Of course I can't speak for the entire left & wouldn't want to try. But, theoretically, I'd say we should leave it up to the mother bird. I think we need to respect that the eggs aren't ours, just as we need to respect that other people's fetuses & bodies aren't ours.

Let me ask you a question: You're at a fertility clinic with hundreds of fertilized eggs and a fire breaks out. There's a baby there. You can save 100 embryos or 1 baby. Who do you save?

Truth be told, I would probably pull a Costanza.

murphyJammer

It's simple, if you are anti abortion, don't get one. Easy as that. I don't presume to tell others what medical treatments others can have. Why do others?

know1

murphyJammer wrote:

It's simple, if you are anti abortion, don't get one. Easy as that. I don't presume to tell others what medical treatments others can have. Why do others?

You're right, that is a very simplistic view of it....and not grounded in reality. Again, it's all about when we believe life begins because at some point the mother is violating the rights of a person. I'm not saying it's at the minute of conception, but at some point she is doing that. It's not like she's chopping off her foot.

It's pretty similar to saying that if you're against murder or stealing, don't do them....but don't think you can tell others not to do them.

CJMST3K

murphyJammer wrote:

It's simple, if you are anti abortion, don't get one. Easy as that. I don't presume to tell others what medical treatments others can have. Why do others?

I feel the same way about the death penalty for murderers. What I mean is if someone doesn't want to be put to death, don't murder anyone. Its a matter of choice on both subjects.

Jason P

When I first brought this topic up, I was really trying to figure out why the left and right follow the company line on each issue. For conservatives, I think it is easier to justify because they can tie their beliefs to a religious foundation. But for liberals, who are noted for defending social and human rights, I find it perplexing that not only don't they defend an unborn child's right, they simply dismiss it altogether.

I don't think many people out there are looking at issues and forming their own opinions. They are just regurgitating political ideologies that are being fed to them. Otherwise opinions on both abortion and the death penalty should be split more within each group.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

if this is true, it's disgusting and vile, and I change my stance on the issue.

JonnyPistachio wrote:

It has been proven that a fetus at 20 weeks can feel pain and does react to it.

Here are some common procedures for abortion:
Partial-birth abortion - The unborn baby is delivered feet first, except for the head, which is punctured at the base of the skull with a sharp object. The brain is then suctioned out, killing the child. (This method was outlawed in the United States in 2007.)

Dilation and Evacuation - Sharp-edged instruments are used to grasp, twist and tear the baby’s body into pieces, which are then removed from the womb.

Saline abortion - Salt water is injected into the womb through the mother’s abdomen. The unborn baby swallows this fluid, is poisoned and dies in a process that sometimes takes 24 hours. The toxic saline solution causes severe burns over the unborn child’s entire body.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

scb wrote:

2. A fetus does not have a conscious will to live.

neither does someone's pet dog, but I'm pretty sure it's illegal and immoral to suck his brain out and toss it in the garbage.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

I am against the death penalty. Vehemetly. I have also always been pro-choice. Never would want my woman to have an abortion, but support a woman's right to do so.

I'm slowly reconsidering after reading through this thread. I guess I was sort of always on the fence about it, as I personally can NOT imagine not having my two beautiful daughters who make me laugh/cry/mad/dileriously happy day in and day out around because I decided I wasn't ready to be a dad or whatever.

However, a previous girlfriend got preggers and had a miscarriage, and as awful as this may sound, I'm SO GLAD we didn't have that baby because I could never imagine having to deal with that bitch the rest of my life.

So I'm not sure where I stand.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

.........and reading through the stages of fetal development, I can't help but admit that it seems to me life begins way before birth.

CJMST3K

Jason P wrote:

When I first brought this topic up, I was really trying to figure out why the left and right follow the company line on each issue. For conservatives, I think it is easier to justify because they can tie their beliefs to a religious foundation. But for liberals, who are noted for defending social and human rights, I find it perplexing that not only don't they defend an unborn child's right, they simply dismiss it altogether.

I don't think many people out there are looking at issues and forming their own opinions. They are just regurgitating political ideologies that are being fed to them. Otherwise opinions on both abortion and the death penalty should be split more within each group.

I agree, though "tying beliefs to a religious foundation" can be silly, like being against condoms AND against the pill AND against abortion. ...if you're against the first two, you get the third at some point.

I also agree about your comment about liberals too.

I'm probably one of the most independent people on this board (I'm an ethical vegetarian who believes in the death penalty - try to find someone like me!) so while people of religion (which I am not) may be swayed by the popular conviction of their peers, a number of people actually make rational and well thought out reasons for their point of view.

cincybearcat

Jason P wrote:

When I first brought this topic up, I was really trying to figure out why the left and right follow the company line on each issue. For conservatives, I think it is easier to justify because they can tie their beliefs to a religious foundation. But for liberals, who are noted for defending social and human rights, I find it perplexing that not only don't they defend an unborn child's right, they simply dismiss it altogether.

I don't think many people out there are looking at issues and forming their own opinions. They are just regurgitating political ideologies that are being fed to them. Otherwise opinions on both abortion and the death penalty should be split more within each group.

Don't forget though that people were drawn to parties because of shared beliefs. So it shouldn't be entirely surprising when looking at only 2 issues that someone may fall right in line with a major party. I'm currently pro-death penalty and anti-abortion. But then again, I'm also Pro-gay rights and anti-gun.......so while it can appear that someone is just talking the party line, they just might be doing so because it's actually what they believe.

CJMST3K

cincybearcat wrote:

Jason P wrote:

When I first brought this topic up, I was really trying to figure out why the left and right follow the company line on each issue. For conservatives, I think it is easier to justify because they can tie their beliefs to a religious foundation. But for liberals, who are noted for defending social and human rights, I find it perplexing that not only don't they defend an unborn child's right, they simply dismiss it altogether.

I don't think many people out there are looking at issues and forming their own opinions. They are just regurgitating political ideologies that are being fed to them. Otherwise opinions on both abortion and the death penalty should be split more within each group.

Don't forget though that people were drawn to parties because of shared beliefs. So it shouldn't be entirely surprising when looking at only 2 issues that someone may fall right in line with a major party. I'm currently pro-death penalty and anti-abortion. But then again, I'm also Pro-gay rights and anti-gun.......so while it can appear that someone is just talking the party line, they just might be doing so because it's actually what they believe.

...I should add to my post above you that I'm a vegetarian who is for the death-penalty, for gun rights and for gay rights. No party will have me.

unsung

scb wrote:

CJMST3K wrote:

unsung wrote:

scb, when does that thing growing inside of the woman actually become a living human in your eyes?

scb made it clear. Based on its first breath and seeing light and being able to interact. In that one-second, it becomes a person, and literally not a second earlier.

...that's a completely arbitrary way of determining if it's a "person" if you ask me.

And yet you haven't answered my question about when, and by what less arbitrary standard, you think a fertilized egg becomes a person.

I apologize, I missed your question. IMO it is life when cells begin to divide and a person when it could survive being born.

_

JonnyPistachio wrote:

Actually I meant a pregnancy that has progressed for 3 months. So, 6 months premature. They can live.

Please provide some evidence that this is possible and statistics indicating what the chances are.

_

HeidiJam wrote:

why even argue when it is considered a person... If there is one fact, it is that it will be a person, it just takes some time to develope.

The only reason I'm discussing whether or not it's a person is because the initial question that someone asked was how someone can be pro-choice and oppose the death penalty. Seems relevant to that question.

_

JonnyPistachio wrote:

It has been proven that a fetus at 20 weeks can feel pain and does react to it.

Here are some common procedures for abortion:
Partial-birth abortion - The unborn baby is delivered feet first, except for the head, which is punctured at the base of the skull with a sharp object. The brain is then suctioned out, killing the child. (This method was outlawed in the United States in 2007.)

Dilation and Evacuation - Sharp-edged instruments are used to grasp, twist and tear the baby’s body into pieces, which are then removed from the womb.

Saline abortion - Salt water is injected into the womb through the mother’s abdomen. The unborn baby swallows this fluid, is poisoned and dies in a process that sometimes takes 24 hours. The toxic saline solution causes severe burns over the unborn child’s entire body.

Please show me where there is scientific consensus that a fetus can feel pain at 20 weeks.

And those are common procedures? Really?? How common? And how do you know?

_

CJMST3K wrote:

scb wrote:

CJMST3K wrote:

scb made it clear. Based on its first breath and seeing light and being able to interact. In that one-second, it becomes a person, and literally not a second earlier.

...that's a completely arbitrary way of determining if it's a "person" if you ask me.

And yet you haven't answered my question about when, and by what less arbitrary standard, you think a fertilized egg becomes a person.

I don't recall you asking that question. Can you repost the question, just so I know where I missed it?

And to (try) to answer the questions, I'd say a fertilized egg becomes a "person" once brain activity begins, which is certainly less arbitrary.

http://forums.pearljam.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=135746&start=45#p3062904

What kind of brain activity (just randomly firing neurons or the ability for thought?) and when does it begin?

_

JonnyPistachio wrote:

"Unborn babies at 20 weeks development actually feel pain more intensely than adults. This is a "uniquely vulnerable time, since the pain system is fully established, yet the higher level pain-modifying system has barely begun to develop," according to Dr. Paul Ranalli.
http://www.gargaro.com/fetalpain.html

"Having administered anesthesia for fetal surgery, I know that on occasion we need to administer anesthesia directly to the fetus, because even at these early gestational ages the fetus moves away from the pain of the stimulation," stated David Birnbach, M.D., president of the Society for Obstetric Anesthesia and Perinatology and self-described as "pro-choice," in testimony before the U.S. Congress.

scb wrote:

2. A fetus does not have a conscious will to live.

The death penalty, on the other hand, kills a person against his/her will.

So, if a fetus is able to feel pain and have the reaction to move away from it, does it not have the will to survive? under this logic, I think it is killing a fetus against his/her will.

I'm sorry but I am much more prone to kill a convicted murderer (and i am against the DP) than an innocent unborn child that can feel pain.

I don't have time to check out the link right now; I'll have to check it out later.

_

know1 wrote:

scb wrote:

know1 wrote:

What's scary is both points you mentioned are not based in fact and they are opinion only.

Therefore, people are willing to potentially murder based upon opinion.

Sad.

I will agree that the death penalty and abortion are two completely different things and do not merit comparisons. I find them equally repulsive and pathetic, however.

So you think fertilized egg is an actively thinking, self-aware, person? Really?? You think a "person" can possess conscious self-awareness and will without a brain? Because I'm pretty sure scientific fact tells us they can't.

Did I say that's what I thought? You're projecting more into my statement or questions than I stated. Take it at face value.

I was talking about the abortions that actually occur, which are really early, and you said my statement was absolutely unfactual. I am merely pointing out that it's not.

So do you think a fertilized egg is an actively thinking, self-aware person? And do you think a person can possess conscious self-awareness without a brain? Or do you recognize that it is a scientific fact that these things aren't possible?

_

Billy Pumpkin wrote:

if this is true, it's disgusting and vile, and I change my stance on the issue.

JonnyPistachio wrote:

It has been proven that a fetus at 20 weeks can feel pain and does react to it.

Here are some common procedures for abortion:
Partial-birth abortion - The unborn baby is delivered feet first, except for the head, which is punctured at the base of the skull with a sharp object. The brain is then suctioned out, killing the child. (This method was outlawed in the United States in 2007.)

Dilation and Evacuation - Sharp-edged instruments are used to grasp, twist and tear the baby’s body into pieces, which are then removed from the womb.

Saline abortion - Salt water is injected into the womb through the mother’s abdomen. The unborn baby swallows this fluid, is poisoned and dies in a process that sometimes takes 24 hours. The toxic saline solution causes severe burns over the unborn child’s entire body.

It's not true.

_

Billy Pumpkin wrote:

scb wrote:

2. A fetus does not have a conscious will to live.

neither does someone's pet dog, but I'm pretty sure it's illegal and immoral to suck his brain out and toss it in the garbage.

I don't know about your dog, but my cats have conscious wills to live.

_

Billy Pumpkin wrote:

I am against the death penalty. Vehemetly. I have also always been pro-choice. Never would want my woman to have an abortion, but support a woman's right to do so.

I'm slowly reconsidering after reading through this thread. I guess I was sort of always on the fence about it, as I personally can NOT imagine not having my two beautiful daughters who make me laugh/cry/mad/dileriously happy day in and day out around because I decided I wasn't ready to be a dad or whatever.

However, a previous girlfriend got preggers and had a miscarriage, and as awful as this may sound, I'm SO GLAD we didn't have that baby because I could never imagine having to deal with that bitch the rest of my life.

So I'm not sure where I stand.

Take whatever position you want, but please be sure that it's based on factual information.

catefrances

scb wrote:

JonnyPistachio wrote:

Actually I meant a pregnancy that has progressed for 3 months. So, 6 months premature. They can live.

Please provide some evidence that this is possible and statistics indicating what the chances are.

its an absurd statement. at 3 months the embryo has just begun its foetal stage. its barely more than 2 and a 1/2 inches in length(at the high end of the spectrum) and its sex has just been decided(though this is irrelevant re: survival). at this stage if you took it from its mothers womb it would die. it is too under developed.