Boycott Anything Involving AZ

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mikepegg44 wrote:

tonifig8 wrote:

dpmay wrote:

should i skip the rockies/diamondbacks game tomorrow? haha.

It might be a joke to you, but for many of us who weren't born with white skin - it's definitely not funny. This is a stressful time for many of us American's who weren't fortunate enough to be born with white skin....

this post in itself implies that white people are doing it.

How do you figure? I don't see that at all in this post.

mikepegg44

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

so how does pointing out the shortcomings and the warts of your country make you hate your country or dislike living there? are you suggesting we can not be critical of our country? if that is what your are suggesting that is a very childish stance to take and would explain why we are so stupid and short sighted as a population. can you refute any of the things this country has done? or is it easier to ignore them and act as if they did not happen to perpetuate the illusion that our country is so perfect....

it isn't about refuting anything the country has done, I understand we have done terrible things, but ALL countries have done terrible things. and like I said, it is fine that someone be critical of the US, hell you can protest here freely, one of the great things about our country. But he/she in particular seems to be living in a country he has deemed not only terrible and racist, but apparently he is afraid every day for what might happen. I am not standing up for anything we have done, I was talking to one person specifically about living in the US when it seemed as though he did not like it here, history or the present. Do not take something and turn it into what it wasn't. No country is perfect, but you cannot say how imperfect we are and then ignore that our checks and balances will no doubt strike this law down.

mikepegg44

scb wrote:

How do you figure? I don't see that at all in this post.

I am not surprised you would not see it, this is a prime example of what I was talking about earlier. Many people can take an internet post many ways. But I see this, and many of his posts, as that implying white privilege.

Boxes&Books

We are an advanced civilization, yet we can't get pass our differences

No it isn't, it isn't a black white brown yellow issue. It is a criminal issue. It is ILLEGAL. It isn't based on hate of the mexican immigrant, it is based on the hate of people illegally coming to the country and our federal government seemingly unable to do anything to stop them.

The issue is that I am an American and I do pay my taxes ...and all the things that the average American does, only problem is that my skin is brown. Now I have to take other precautions because of the color of my skin.

My friend and coaching buddy just got sent back to .... CANADA because his work visa expired and he needed to go back and fill out paper work to get back here. Huh, pretty damn racist to me. Sent him back based on his skin col....oh wait they sent him back because if he had stayed here and worked without his work visa he would be here ILLEGALLY...

They send back thousands of people all the time bases on those simple facts- Only difference now is that you would have probably been fined or harassed for not reporting your friend as an illegal alien... Guilt by association!

and no I am not suggesting that you cannot be critical of our country, I was saying that to ONE person on this forum who seemed to me to not just be critical but be afraid for everyday of his life here and seemed to hate the US with passion. that is my impression of him. that is why in my very first post I said it is hard to have a discussion rationally about such a passionate and personal topic because people tend to do things like you are doing now. Take a sentence that was one piece of a much smaller post, change the angle from which it was delivered and then attack it.
He can be critical of this country all day long, but living in constant fear must suck, which is why I told him he can leave and go to a place where he doesn't have to..

I might be giving hypothetical examples of what might happen to me, but the fact is that it is possible and legal.
I am trying to be fare and answer direct comments, IN HOPE THAT WE CAN FIND A BETTER SOLUTION AND WORK TOGETHER ON A GOOD CAUSE
I am afraid of being deported because of the color of my skin, I don't think I could go to a different country because America is all I really know..... it does suck for me, and it's saddening that some people can't be sympathetic and use reason/logic to find a better solution to the problems of our nation

mikepegg44

tonifig8 wrote:

We try and spread democracy by exploiting other races, we try to spread Christianity by destroying other beliefs, we try to make our race superior to all other races, and if you really analyze history it has always been about protecting America's interest (regardless if we are in the right or wrong).

this is either a misunderstanding of what race or again he is implying white v. dark skinned. Am I the only person who has gotten this impression? if so then I must be way off and I apologize

Boxes&Books

mikepegg44 wrote:

tonifig8 wrote:

dpmay wrote:

should i skip the rockies/diamondbacks game tomorrow? haha.

It might be a joke to you, but for many of us who weren't born with white skin - it's definitely not funny. This is a stressful time for many of us American's who weren't fortunate enough to be born with white skin....

this post in itself implies that white people are doing it.

White people are doing what? Let me clarify it- Just ask me directly and we can move towards solving the problem.....

The fact that I was not born with white skin makes me a target - Its simple
Illegal immigrants who are white in skin color have a better chance of not being harassed because of the color of there skin. In the case of living in AZ you are fortune to have white skin because you don't have to deal with the harassment. This law targets people who do not appear to be legal citizens based on there appearance.

Boxes&Books

mikepegg44 wrote:

tonifig8 wrote:

We try and spread democracy by exploiting other races, we try to spread Christianity by destroying other beliefs, we try to make our race superior to all other races, and if you really analyze history it has always been about protecting America's interest (regardless if we are in the right or wrong).

this is either a misunderstanding of what race or again he is implying white v. dark skinned. Am I the only person who has gotten this impression? if so then I must be way off and I apologize

My apologies, my comment about "our race superior to all other races" is intended to be "America as a race" or America's way of life is to be the superior way of life - hope you can understand my grammar stinks!

I am not speaking specifically about white people being racist- the point of this post is the issue in AZ- I don't mean to draw away from that discussion.

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mikepegg44 wrote:

scb wrote:

How do you figure? I don't see that at all in this post.

I am not surprised you would not see it,

:? :?

mikepegg44 wrote:

this is a prime example of what I was talking about earlier. Many people can take an internet post many ways. But I see this, and many of his posts, as that implying white privilege.

Well, yeah, I think it implies white privilege. (Do you think white privilege doesn't exist?) But that's not the same as "white people are doing it".

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mikepegg44 wrote:

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

so how does pointing out the shortcomings and the warts of your country make you hate your country or dislike living there? are you suggesting we can not be critical of our country? if that is what your are suggesting that is a very childish stance to take and would explain why we are so stupid and short sighted as a population. can you refute any of the things this country has done? or is it easier to ignore them and act as if they did not happen to perpetuate the illusion that our country is so perfect....

it isn't about refuting anything the country has done, I understand we have done terrible things, but ALL countries have done terrible things. and like I said, it is fine that someone be critical of the US, hell you can protest here freely, one of the great things about our country. But he/she in particular seems to be living in a country he has deemed not only terrible and racist, but apparently he is afraid every day for what might happen. I am not standing up for anything we have done, I was talking to one person specifically about living in the US when it seemed as though he did not like it here, history or the present. Do not take something and turn it into what it wasn't. No country is perfect, but you cannot say how imperfect we are and then ignore that our checks and balances will no doubt strike this law down.

What, may I ask, is your race? (Or if you wouldn't categorize yourself into any race, what race do others see when they look at you?)

mikepegg44

tonifig8 wrote:

We are an advanced civilization, yet we can't get pass our differences

No it isn't, it isn't a black white brown yellow issue. It is a criminal issue. It is ILLEGAL. It isn't based on hate of the mexican immigrant, it is based on the hate of people illegally coming to the country and our federal government seemingly unable to do anything to stop them.

The issue is that I am an American and I do pay my taxes ...and all the things that the average American does, only problem is that my skin is brown. Now I have to take other precautions because of the color of my skin.

My friend and coaching buddy just got sent back to .... CANADA because his work visa expired and he needed to go back and fill out paper work to get back here. Huh, pretty damn racist to me. Sent him back based on his skin col....oh wait they sent him back because if he had stayed here and worked without his work visa he would be here ILLEGALLY...

They send back thousands of people all the time bases on those simple facts- Only difference now is that you would have probably been fined or harassed for not reporting your friend as an illegal alien... Guilt by association!

and no I am not suggesting that you cannot be critical of our country, I was saying that to ONE person on this forum who seemed to me to not just be critical but be afraid for everyday of his life here and seemed to hate the US with passion. that is my impression of him. that is why in my very first post I said it is hard to have a discussion rationally about such a passionate and personal topic because people tend to do things like you are doing now. Take a sentence that was one piece of a much smaller post, change the angle from which it was delivered and then attack it.
He can be critical of this country all day long, but living in constant fear must suck, which is why I told him he can leave and go to a place where he doesn't have to..

I might be giving hypothetical examples of what might happen to me, but the fact is that it is possible and legal.
I am trying to be fare and answer direct comments, IN HOPE THAT WE CAN FIND A BETTER SOLUTION AND WORK TOGETHER ON A GOOD CAUSE
I am afraid of being deported because of the color of my skin, I don't think I could go to a different country because America is all I really know..... it does suck for me, and it's saddening that some people can't be sympathetic and use reason/logic to find a better solution to the problems of our nation

you will only be deported if you are not a citizen, don't worry about it. You will not be deported. But lets drop this side of the issue because it seems to be getting us off track.

so instead of worrying about what might happen, why don't you rejoice in the fact that you live in a country that will more than likely strike this law down as a violation of the people's civil rights. That is the most likely "what if" in all of these scenarios.
This law is extreme and will be shot down, but I think it speaks to a much bigger issue in that many people will start supporting more and more outrageous laws if nothing is down to solve the issue.

It is a lot like a hockey game. Those who play can attest to the fact that if a referee lets a lot of penalties and cheap shots go, the game because very violent very fast. It escalates incredibly fast and someone eventually gets needlessly hurt by it. In this scenario, the US government is the ref, and they have been letting people break the rules for way too long and now someone is going to get hurt because of it. Something needs to be done, and a law like this getting support only proves that matter. But in practice this law will never be, I have enough confidence in the branches of our government and things like judicial review to know that this law will not be held constitutional. But it screams that something needs to be done NOW

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tonifig8 wrote:

I am afraid of being deported because of the color of my skin, I don't think I could go to a different country because America is all I really know.....

Are you really afraid of being DEPORTED?? Or just harassed?

mikepegg44

scb wrote:

mikepegg44 wrote:

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

so how does pointing out the shortcomings and the warts of your country make you hate your country or dislike living there? are you suggesting we can not be critical of our country? if that is what your are suggesting that is a very childish stance to take and would explain why we are so stupid and short sighted as a population. can you refute any of the things this country has done? or is it easier to ignore them and act as if they did not happen to perpetuate the illusion that our country is so perfect....

it isn't about refuting anything the country has done, I understand we have done terrible things, but ALL countries have done terrible things. and like I said, it is fine that someone be critical of the US, hell you can protest here freely, one of the great things about our country. But he/she in particular seems to be living in a country he has deemed not only terrible and racist, but apparently he is afraid every day for what might happen. I am not standing up for anything we have done, I was talking to one person specifically about living in the US when it seemed as though he did not like it here, history or the present. Do not take something and turn it into what it wasn't. No country is perfect, but you cannot say how imperfect we are and then ignore that our checks and balances will no doubt strike this law down.

What, may I ask, is your race? (Or if you wouldn't categorize yourself into any race, what race do others see when they look at you?)

I am white. I do categorize myself as white, (irish/english). I have had to work extremely hard to make something of myself and I believe that everyone here can do the same. I was a sociology major for my first ba and have been working in healthcare while attending nursing school. I minored in philosophy as well. It just seems to me that too many people on this forum especially look at life through the lens of a conflict theorist and do not see the pragmatism involved. I see each person as a person unto themselves. They are all equal in my book, right up until I meet them and find out what they are about. Working in a public health clinic has definitely taught me that. Anything else you would like to know about me? Since we are getting to know each other finally after a few forum battles, what is your race? what is your background?

Boxes&Books

scb wrote:

tonifig8 wrote:

I am afraid of being deported because of the color of my skin, I don't think I could go to a different country because America is all I really know.....

Are you really afraid of being DEPORTED?? Or just harassed?

Personally I am not really afraid, but I fear for those who might be. Fear of the harassment fear of the deportation. I am very sympathetic because I have lived the race divisions. Personally if I were stopped I wouldn't show documentation or even speak English just to stand/suffer hand in hand with human beings.

Cosmo

IF... Illegal Immigration is so serious a problem in America, as to draft such aggressive legislation against those immigrants... how about some common sense root cause analysis to come up with a lasting solution?
Why do people come here illegally?
Because it is restrictive for many to gain legal access through proper channels.
Because they can earn more wages here, than their homeland. Many are unskilled, untrained, uneducated and poor from rural regions. It doesn't require a lot of skills or education to man a leaf blower, hang drywall or bust out a concrete driveway with a sledge hammer.
Because there is work here.
...
I say, if you remove the reasons WHY people come here... they would not come here.
If we are going to aggressively persue the immigrants... how about applying that same aggressive persuit on the Americans that hire them? How come everyone isn't up in arm and going after the heads of the American restaurant owners, farmers, ranchers, landscaping contractors or building contractors? Aren't THEY part of the problem? Why doesn't the law target them as well. Hefty fines, seized assets, jail time for Americans that hire Illegal Immigrants would be a way to restrict the flow across the borders. Put the business owners that hire illegal immigrants out of business and in prison... if you are going to draft legislation such as this. Those American business owners are CRIMINALS and shoulsd be treated as such. From the largest farmer to the individual American citizen who hires one worker for one day to clear brush off his property. Jailtime and heavy penalties.
...
I think a better method would be to reform the immigration process to make it easier to gain access here for unskilled workers. I think we need the work they are offering for the pay they are receiving. Work out some sort of work visa or permit process with Mexico, Guatemala, etc... where laborers could come here for work, retain their Mexican citizenship and Mexico is billed for any unpaid health care costs, criminal proceedings and any other costs that are incured outside their work here. That is something the Federal Government needs to do with foriegn governments.
As for taking American jobs... would you want to swing a sledge hammer on 3 inches of steel reinforced concrete for 40 bucks? Fuck no. How about bussing tables at he Denny's for less than minimum wage? Picking onions from dawn til dusk in Bakersfield in June? You want those jobs for you or your kids.. you can have them.
I think if we, at bare minimum, tried to see things through the immigrants eyes... we would have some compassion for their plight and treat them as humans. They are humans... how about we start looking at them as humans?

mikepegg44

cosmo wrote:

If we are going to aggressively persue the immigrants... how about applying that same aggressive persuit on the Americans that hire them? How come everyone isn't up in arm and going after the heads of the American restaurant owners, farmers, ranchers, landscaping contractors or building contractors? Aren't THEY part of the problem?

abso-freaking-lutely. Well said. Would be a lot easier to do so if the government would quit the silly war on drugs that is causing a lot of the violence on the border and and put those resources to finding companies that do this and make examples of them. Immigration needs reformation. no doubt about it

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mikepegg44 wrote:

scb wrote:

mikepegg44 wrote:

But he/she in particular seems to be living in a country he has deemed not only terrible and racist, but apparently he is afraid every day for what might happen.

What, may I ask, is your race? (Or if you wouldn't categorize yourself into any race, what race do others see when they look at you?)

I am white. I do categorize myself as white, (irish/english). I have had to work extremely hard to make something of myself and I believe that everyone here can do the same. I was a sociology major for my first ba and have been working in healthcare while attending nursing school. I minored in philosophy as well. It just seems to me that too many people on this forum especially look at life through the lens of a conflict theorist and do not see the pragmatism involved. I see each person as a person unto themselves. They are all equal in my book, right up until I meet them and find out what they are about. Working in a public health clinic has definitely taught me that. Anything else you would like to know about me? Since we are getting to know each other finally after a few forum battles, what is your race? what is your background?

I'm as white as they come. That's me and my twin sister in my avatar. Mostly of Swedish, Finnish, and Scots-Irish descent. I'm from the south but have lived in the southwest since high school. I've lived primarily in places, including the Navajo Reservation in AZ, where white people are the minority. My BA is in women studies, with a minor in American studies, though I was a philosophy major for a long time. Now I'm working on a masters in public health, and have worked at a medical school / teaching hospital for the past 7 years.

I've had to work extremely hard to make something of myself, too, and also believe that everyone here has the potential to do the same. But I also believe in white privilege and think that, though everyone has the potential to make something of themselves, some face much greater disadvantages than others. I, too, see each person as a person unto themselves and they are equal in my book. But I know not everyone views people in that way, and I don't think our social structure is set up that way.

I asked your race because the sentence I quoted above seems typical to me of how white people and people of color might view this country differently, through their different lenses of experience.

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tonifig8 wrote:

scb wrote:

tonifig8 wrote:

I am afraid of being deported because of the color of my skin, I don't think I could go to a different country because America is all I really know.....

Are you really afraid of being DEPORTED?? Or just harassed?

Personally I am not really afraid, but I fear for those who might be. Fear of the harassment fear of the deportation. I am very sympathetic because I have lived the race divisions. Personally if I were stopped I wouldn't show documentation or even speak English just to stand/suffer hand in hand with human beings.

Though this law encourages harassment, it also actually precludes the deportation of anyone who is here legally, ya know.

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Cosmo wrote:

I think if we, at bare minimum, tried to see things through the immigrants eyes... we would have some compassion for their plight and treat them as humans. They are humans... how about we start looking at them as humans?

Boxes&Books

Personally I am not really afraid, but I fear for those who might be. Fear of the harassment fear of the deportation. I am very sympathetic because I have lived the race divisions. Personally if I were stopped I wouldn't show documentation or even speak English just to stand/suffer hand in hand with human beings.

Though this law encourages harassment, it also actually precludes the deportation of anyone who is here legally, ya know.

Completely understand- However it angers me that people will be detained on the terms of suspicion and detained for whatever amount of time until your legal status is proven. I am sure if a cop wants to be a total Awhole about it he/she can put you on the bus that is heading back to Mexico, and the legal part of this being lost in the screwed up court system.
Image going through this crap... its sad and full of hate....

mikepegg44

scb wrote:

I'm as white as they come. That's me and my twin sister in my avatar. Mostly of Swedish, Finnish, and Scots-Irish descent. I'm from the south but have lived in the southwest since high school. I've lived primarily in places, including the Navajo Reservation in AZ, where white people are the minority. My BA is in women studies, with a minor in American studies, though I was a philosophy major for a long time. Now I'm working on a masters in public health, and have worked at a medical school / teaching hospital for the past 7 years.

I've had to work extremely hard to make something of myself, too, and also believe that everyone here has the potential to do the same. But I also believe in white privilege and think that, though everyone has the potential to make something of themselves, some face much greater disadvantages than others. I, too, see each person as a person unto themselves and they are equal in my book. But I know not everyone views people in that way, and I don't think our social structure is set up that way.

I asked your race because the sentence I quoted above seems typical to me of how white people and people of color might view this country differently, through their different lenses of experience.

good luck on the masters, I know it is a shit load of work. It is where I am going next after my R.N is done. I think eventually we need to have a serious discussion as a country as to what is happening with race. it is so hard to talk about it without being seen as a racist no matter what side you are on. I think too often it clouds peoples minds needlessly. Too many people benefit from the ongoing racial divide
A lot of people quote a stat like there are a significantly higher proportion of black men in prison, and say our justice system is racist instead of looking at it and saying, now are these black people who are innocent? should we just arrest more white people to average it out? They separate it into race and say our criminal justice system is the problem instead of wondering why so many black men 18-34 are committing crimes. Is it because they have no opportunity? is it because they are more likely to grow up around it? what is the self perpetuating cycle? I know for a fact that black people as a group are not criminals, so why is it that our jails are so misrepresented...it cannot all be racism, can it? I mean, when people think of racist states Iowa is very far from the top on the list, but they have the most racially skewed prison system, at least as of 2007 they did.
I know I am going to get pounded for saying this as a racist but I am more of a pragmatist by nature. It doesn't make sense to me that racism can be the only reason behind this. But, when having a discussion about it, it always seems to break down to calling the justice system and the cops racists.
I don't know, maybe I am just naive. But I just don't think race and racism cause all the problems and are the motivation for a lot of behaviors.