It's funny how people rationalize the simple fact of being born in a particular location equates to automatic entitlement to so many basic and fundamental human rights, and because we draw lines on the ground and say this is ours and theirs, it dis-allows others to have the same. Where is people's sense of humanity - seriously? Do you really feel that because your ancestry or family situated in a nation it gives you the entitlement to display outcry when people are merely trying to live normal, just lives? At what point do we all just look in the mirror and acknowledge that because we as a society expect things, it affords us the entitlement to disallow others those same basic freedoms? And just to be clear, the vast majority of the people we're discussing aren't criminals or similar, it's merely workers seeking to support their families.. nothing more. We expect others to treat our nation with respect or dignity and values, yet we do not show do that... it's pathetic and hypocritical to say the least.
Exactly! In all of this discussion about immigration & immigrants, we completely fail to acknowedge that the way of life we think we, above others, are entitled to is created BY OUR EXPLOITATION of other peoples. WE are a huge part of the reason so many in this world are so impoverished that they feel the need to come here just to survive. How dare we even suggest that we are somehow more entitled to a basic standard of living than they are! I say, if we want to close our borders completely to immigration because we don't like what immigrants our doing to our country, that's fine with me as long as we repeal NAFTA & close our borders also to our multinational corporations, who should also not be allowed to go out into the world & fuck up other people's societies.
As far as our entitlement goes, I heard a great quote yesterday about human rights: "If access to healthcare [or anything else] is considered a human right, who is considered human enough to have that right?" -Paul Farmer, MD
No, access to medical care is not a right. It isn't. It isn't in our bill of rights, it isn't anywhere. It might be something that would be good for everyone, but it isn't a right.
On topic, no one is saying don't come here... they are saying come here legally please
so they should tighten up the borders
racial profiling and arresting people that don't have "documentation" in their pockets is just down-right unamerican... but then again so is torture (i.e water-boarding) and a lot of people think that is ok too....
i guess if they are not "really" american then the "all men are created equal" bullshit really IS just bullshit (as we know it kind of is anyway... right?)
The right to medical care being a core value is a separate discussion.
But can you list some legitimate reasons why anyone would and should go through the immigration process which benefits them in the long term? Not a very difficult question, but when you ask it, you slowly realize it's not a practical, inclusive or beneficial resolve to this problem. Just put yourself in the shoes of one of these people and you clearly understand why this issue is really not black and white.
No, access to medical care is not a right. It isn't. It isn't in our bill of rights, it isn't anywhere. It might be something that would be good for everyone, but it isn't a right.
On topic, no one is saying don't come here... they are saying come here legally please
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
I don't understand, what hand outs?
Have you even taken the time to read through this thread? Have you looked at the facts? Have you looked at the statements people have made? You post your email, with out going through the debate taking place on this thread....
Really???
What handouts?
Health care for one. Illegal immigrants can present at a hospital and be taken care of and who pays for it? who gets that bill? All of us do. It has to stop. I don't even want to pay for someone else's health care who is here legally, I sure as hell don't want to do it for someone who is not.
And don't tell me they pay taxes and that bull shit because not all of them do. The fact is that if they make as little as people claim then they in fact pay NO income taxes like about 47% of this country. So let's quit talking about how much they contribute as far as taxes go. Social security, sure, medicaid, sure, but they don't use MA when going to the hospital because they cannot apply for it because they have no legal status. They just show up. It is a huge cost burden, even at my clinic which is tiny in scope compared to most.
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
What handouts?
Health care for one. Illegal immigrants can present at a hospital and be taken care of and who pays for it? who gets that bill? All of us do. It has to stop. I don't even want to pay for someone else's health care who is here legally, I sure as hell don't want to do it for someone who is not.
And don't tell me they pay taxes and that bull shit because not all of them do. The fact is that if they make as little as people claim then they in fact pay NO income taxes like about 47% of this country. So let's quit talking about how much they contribute as far as taxes go. Social security, sure, medicaid, sure, but they don't use MA when going to the hospital because they cannot apply for it because they have no legal status. They just show up. It is a huge cost burden, even at my clinic which is tiny in scope compared to most.
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
one world ?
one people ?
your thoughts are very nice, try taking your ideas to another country and see how far it gets you
We take the one world idea to other countries all the time! And it's gotten us far. We're all in support of one world, globalization, etc. when it serves our interests and allows us to exploit others. It's fucking hypocritcal to try to act like this is a bad idea only when it doesn't benefit us.
wake up sunshine it will NEVER HAPPEN there is way too much power in the hands of way too many people !
dream on.
I don't even want to pay for someone else's health care who is here legally, I sure as hell don't want to do it for someone who is not. .
here's my question for all of those that are against paying for helathcare for the millions of children that don't have any... do you oppose paying for their education? do you not think education should be mandatory? if it's mandatory and paid for out of our tax dollars is it a socialist program? what the hell good is mandatory school if we don't even give a shit about keeping the little buggers alive and well?
Not to be rude, but what the hell are you talking about? Enslavement of who and by whom exactly? And at what point in US history have we "taken care of the world" exactly?
I saw your point when first reading this email, they are not countries I want to be likened to either. The author though has made his point on how our country and its working class are being taken advantage of. While showing the hard line strength of other countries to protect their own people.
The free meal ticket stops here. We no longer can afford to take care of the world. Our country is in ruin. Our children's children will be enslaved to pay for the mistakes being made now.
Of course, this could quite possibly be the plan. Enslavement. When a people needs their government power to take care of them they have lost their freedom.
I just do not understand the gripes so many have made. AZ made a choice. Their choice. It is not wrong or right, but a choice. It seems to me that when emotions get involved, the ego isn't far behind and everything gets blown up and nasty. If....and it is a big if, if we are able to look at the bottom line here, what is it that irritates at the core level. Money? Human Rights? Job Security? Just what has everyone so inflamed. History has shown, countless times those who have less want what those who have more of. Yet, it has also been heard that with the accumulation of "Stuff" whether it be $, Belongings, Power, what-not it made the person wish they had less. I just think AZ is trying a new angle to see how it fares. Nothing more, nothing less. As I read posts I am continually assualted with us vs them and that entire scenario. Who is us, and who are "them". I look at politics like a bunch of ticks, those little blood sucking creatures, and there are many of those in this country telling everyone what to do and how to be. If I mind my own business, guess what, I seem to be immune to most things. Sure I get ushered aside at the airport more than most. Sure when I walk into the bank and the teller says, "you must have a wonderful boss to trust you with "x" amount of cash" but it is just people being people. I could come up with fifty reasons to boycott all fifty states. Granted Minnesota would be a challenge, but I could do it.
I happen to be extremely bored at the office today and have been reading posts all AM. If you find what wrote off topic, boring, not worthy of comments, good.....
Welcome- the discussion- "Choice" is always good- the main reason of this thread was to boycott AZ- for its bad choice.
its a bad choice because it does nothing to solve the problem, it only promotes/creates hate.
70% of Arizonans supported this bill, 53% of those who supported it believed it would violate civil rights.... Why support this bill if it will create civil rights issues(more specifically Hispanics)? Making us second class citizens.
The bill was created by people involved with white supremacist groups- 1 million dollars have been donated by white supremacist groups to this cause.
But really how does the bill differ from the law of the land? Well it just gives more powers to police officers to basically promise not to harass people based on race - They are to simply use there best judgment- when going after undocumented people. They do not have to proper training - The Governor said it herself- that Police officers will begin training on this.....
Police officers cannot deport anyone, they can only hand them over to the FEDS- the FEDS are already overwhelmed with serious crimes....
This is going to cause more divide and more money because Citizens will not be calling police every time they see someone who they believe is an undocumented immigrant, and police will have to be addressing those calls. IT's going to nastier then it is now..... A lot of RACIAL tensions ..........
Hope this kind of sums it up for you.........
The right to medical care being a core value is a separate discussion.
But can you list some legitimate reasons why anyone would and should go through the immigration process which benefits them in the long term? Not a very difficult question, but when you ask it, you slowly realize it's not a practical, inclusive or beneficial resolve to this problem. Just put yourself in the shoes of one of these people and you clearly understand why this issue is really not black and white.
No, access to medical care is not a right. It isn't. It isn't in our bill of rights, it isn't anywhere. It might be something that would be good for everyone, but it isn't a right.
On topic, no one is saying don't come here... they are saying come here legally please
What you get from following the law, immunity to things like this law in Arizona for one. You get the right to vote, you get the right to work without fear of immigration coming and knocking at your door. Basically you get to be here and get afforded all the rights all of us get. Seems simple enough.
That is really a disturbing question that you asked, as if it is justified in breaking the laws of this country because they aren't the easy way of doing things. If you respect the laws, the country will respect you and give you all the rights and privileges everyone here thinks they deserve. does it take awhile, yes, but do you honestly think that you and I would have the same quality of life that we have now if we just opened our borders to everyone?
Let's forget about the people who hate us, but solely focus on those who just want to come here to better their life. If it was free and easy to come here, how many people in the world would come? I a conservative estimate is 5%. That is 5% of the 6.8 billion people in the world, that is 340,000,000 more people in the country. Do you honestly think we can sustain that? The same people who are complaining because the government isn't creating more jobs are the same ones wanting the god damn borders to be open and free. When you look at it that way it seems pretty simple to me.
and another thing, we, unlike most EU countries that so many want to emmulate, still have birth right citizenship for christ's sake. It is unsustainable.
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
America has not really been in any war or military engagement with altruistic measures since WW2 and even that can be debated. Being a world power or even super power doesn't mean we're doing things for others benefit in any manner.
Not to be rude, but what the hell are you talking about? Enslavement of who and by whom exactly? And at what point in US history have we "taken care of the world" exactly?
I saw your point when first reading this email, they are not countries I want to be likened to either. The author though has made his point on how our country and its working class are being taken advantage of. While showing the hard line strength of other countries to protect their own people.
The free meal ticket stops here. We no longer can afford to take care of the world. Our country is in ruin. Our children's children will be enslaved to pay for the mistakes being made now.
Of course, this could quite possibly be the plan. Enslavement. When a people needs their government power to take care of them they have lost their freedom.
from WWI and on probably.
Godfather.
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
I don't understand, what hand outs?
Have you even taken the time to read through this thread? Have you looked at the facts? Have you looked at the statements people have made? You post your email, with out going through the debate taking place on this thread....
Really???
What handouts?
Health care for one. Illegal immigrants can present at a hospital and be taken care of and who pays for it? who gets that bill? All of us do. It has to stop. I don't even want to pay for someone else's health care who is here legally, I sure as hell don't want to do it for someone who is not.
And don't tell me they pay taxes and that bull shit because not all of them do. The fact is that if they make as little as people claim then they in fact pay NO income taxes like about 47% of this country. So let's quit talking about how much they contribute as far as taxes go. Social security, sure, medicaid, sure, but they don't use MA when going to the hospital because they cannot apply for it because they have no legal status. They just show up. It is a huge cost burden, even at my clinic which is tiny in scope compared to most.
If you don't want to consider the financial benefits illegals immigrants contribute to our nation, then I cannot win on this debate. That's like saying 20 million people come here and just sit on there ASS and collect from US citizen
They just show up. It is a huge cost burden, even at my clinic
I really hope your not a nurse or someone who is suppose to be worried about saving life's; Instead of worrying about how much this is costing your clinic....Hopefully your an administrative person, because it's sad to think that you are more worried about a person ability to pay instead of trying to preserve life.
I don't think anyone is asking that all these people get a "free pass", but more directly saying the system and processes that we have in place are not only failing all parties involved, but there's no substantive or practical reasons for it to be inclusionary in its current form. For the same reason you sit here and complain that others ought to go through processes that don't benefit them, you ignore the fact that we actually need these people a lot more than most care to admit. So you can attempt to paint the discussion and issue in terms of black and white (illegal = breaking law, so leave), but in reality it's an extremely grey issue and discussion with tons of repercussions for all involved. And notice how not one person has even discussed the fact of security or even the many ways in which our government and business's have enabled this mess, yet all the talk is simply about the people trying to merely work? And the mention of "unsustainable" is merely an argument of entitlement...the simple notion that people feel they are due something in life when this is merely a hope, not guaranteed. Unsustainable can be applied to any area of focus in politics or life, but I hardly say you'd agree with the laundry list of items ranging from completely getting rid of all US debt which is beyond comprehension or something like population control. It all effects us in the same manner. So if what's sustainable is truly the heart and crux of the discussion, let's discuss it fully and openly, not merely apply it to one area where it doesn't really belong.
But can you list some legitimate reasons why anyone would and should go through the immigration process which benefits them in the long term? Not a very difficult question, but when you ask it, you slowly realize it's not a practical, inclusive or beneficial resolve to this problem. Just put yourself in the shoes of one of these people and you clearly understand why this issue is really not black and white.
What you get from following the law, immunity to things like this law in Arizona for one. You get the right to vote, you get the right to work without fear of immigration coming and knocking at your door. Basically you get to be here and get afforded all the rights all of us get. Seems simple enough.
That is really a disturbing question that you asked, as if it is justified in breaking the laws of this country because they aren't the easy way of doing things. If you respect the laws, the country will respect you and give you all the rights and privileges everyone here thinks they deserve. does it take awhile, yes, but do you honestly think that you and I would have the same quality of life that we have now if we just opened our borders to everyone?
Let's forget about the people who hate us, but solely focus on those who just want to come here to better their life. If it was free and easy to come here, how many people in the world would come? I a conservative estimate is 5%. That is 5% of the 6.8 billion people in the world, that is 340,000,000 more people in the country. Do you honestly think we can sustain that? The same people who are complaining because the government isn't creating more jobs are the same ones wanting the god damn borders to be open and free. When you look at it that way it seems pretty simple to me.
and another thing, we, unlike most EU countries that so many want to emmulate, still have birth right citizenship for christ's sake. It is unsustainable.
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
I don't even want to pay for someone else's health care who is here legally, I sure as hell don't want to do it for someone who is not. .
here's my question for all of those that are against paying for helathcare for the millions of children that don't have any... do you oppose paying for their education? do you not think education should be mandatory? if it's mandatory and paid for out of our tax dollars is it a socialist program? what the hell good is mandatory school if we don't even give a shit about keeping the little buggers alive and well?
It is a huge cost burden, even at my clinic which is tiny in scope compared to most.
sounds like you are burnt out and a clinic is probably no longer best suited to you at this point in time....
The federal government has no costitutional authority to pay for public education. That is a local and state government issue and should be treated as one. And to answer your question, no I don't think education should be mandatory. And yes, I do think it is a socialistic program. It is the government taking resources and providing benefits to their people. Which is really the definition of socialism. I am not saying I am against public education, but I do think it has multitudes of issues that need to be addressed before it all falls apart, at least in MN.
And do not, under any circumstances try to give someone you don't know advice about where they work based on an internet post. That is ridiculous. I love my job, and I want to keep it, which is why health care COSTS need to be handled much more than just giving everyone health INSURANCE. I understand the need for public health, immunization programs, std and hiv control and testing, TB, etc. But I certainly don't think it is the responsibility of the people of the United states to pay for someone from ANOTHER COUNTRIES health care. That has nothing to do with being burnt out at my job asshole, it has to do with being realistic and thining our limited resources are better served when given to the people of this country. Sorry if that conflicts with the ridiculous view that everyone should get everything paid for by people who have been successful in life.
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
Again, entitlement because you or your ancestors were born here.. you equate this too "success in life"? Really?
Maybe we should deport deadbeats who don't pay their debts or homeless people who eat up public funds as well? Where does the entitlement exactly stop? Say when...
And do not, under any circumstances try to give someone you don't know advice about where they work based on an internet post. That is ridiculous. I love my job, and I want to keep it, which is why health care COSTS need to be handled much more than just giving everyone health INSURANCE. I understand the need for public health, immunization programs, std and hiv control and testing, TB, etc. But I certainly don't think it is the responsibility of the people of the United states to pay for someone from ANOTHER COUNTRIES health care. That has nothing to do with being burnt out at my job asshole, it has to do with being realistic and thining our limited resources are better served when given to the people of this country. Sorry if that conflicts with the ridiculous view that everyone should get everything paid for by people who have been successful in life.
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
what would make you happy ? how can this law be changed to make you happy and be fair for both
sides of this debate, I would really like to read this.
Godfather.
Haven't you been reading my post? Or do you just post nonsense with out even thinking about anything? Because I have called you out directly many times and I have also stated my position.
What I don't understand is this- How can any American with common sense support this bill based on these facts:
53% of the 70% who voted for the bill feel this bill will violate peoples civil rights (mainly Hispanics civil rights) - why vote for it if you feel American's will have there civil rights abused?
-the bill was introduced/created by white supremacist groups- FACT
- 1 million dollars have been accepted by white supremacist groups to help fund this bill- FACT (yet you don't care)
- The hidden agenda is to affect minority groups- FACT!! Police officers cannot deport people This is only going to tie up resources - police officers will now be addressing hundreds of calls daily, by residence who believe they see illegal immigrants. See the problem with that? Does anyone really know who an undocumented person is, based on how they look? Do you see the problem? Do you see the profiling? Do you see the waste of time? The Feds are limited in time because they are dealing with more serious crimes.
How is this bill different from federal law? It enforces these powers on Police officers to take more control of the law, however they have not received the proper training on this type of stuff, at least that's what the Governor of AZ stated, good news is that tax payers will have to pay more money for them to receive the training ....... Which at the end of the day, Police will still not be able to deport anyone!
What's the fix? well, that for sure we do not agree on....and would probably be another debate, but this is definitely not helping anyone, it only targets certain people....cost tons of money...... causes more divide .... and promotes hate.
Just an FYI- a drivers license isn't valid proof of citizenship - If it really comes down to it, a person would have to show there birth certificate, a pass port, or other federal approved documents. If I am out for a jog I will have to carry these items, because I could be profiled and then detained.
Answer me directly, stop with your dodging my direct questions .... how does this improve anything?
I had to ad to this post:
I have never said anything on this board that I am against the Federal Governments actions of deporting people daily! I am not asking them to stop that part of there operation.
This thread, this debate is about the Bill in Arizona. Which is driven by racism
I don't understand, what hand outs?
Have you even taken the time to read through this thread? Have you looked at the facts? Have you looked at the statements people have made? You post your email, with out going through the debate taking place on this thread....
Really???
What handouts?
Health care for one. Illegal immigrants can present at a hospital and be taken care of and who pays for it? who gets that bill? All of us do. It has to stop. I don't even want to pay for someone else's health care who is here legally, I sure as hell don't want to do it for someone who is not.
And don't tell me they pay taxes and that bull shit because not all of them do. The fact is that if they make as little as people claim then they in fact pay NO income taxes like about 47% of this country. So let's quit talking about how much they contribute as far as taxes go. Social security, sure, medicaid, sure, but they don't use MA when going to the hospital because they cannot apply for it because they have no legal status. They just show up. It is a huge cost burden, even at my clinic which is tiny in scope compared to most.
If you don't want to consider the financial benefits illegals immigrants contribute to our nation, then I cannot win on this debate. That's like saying 20 million people come here and just sit on there ASS and collect from US citizen
They just show up. It is a huge cost burden, even at my clinic
I find there to be financial benefits of illegal immigrants sure, but if you are going to tell me they pay income taxes I am going to say that if most are coming here and working for minimum wage and for cheap like most claim they do not pay income taxes like almost half of the country. I never said a thing about them all comin here and being lazy. But if you aren't going to try and understand the cost of illegal immigrants I cannot win on this debate. It goes both ways.
I really hope your not a nurse or someone who is suppose to be worried about saving life's; Instead of worrying about how much this is costing your clinic....Hopefully your an administrative person, because it's sad to think that you are more worried about a person ability to pay instead of trying to preserve life.
I intially typed something that I will not lower myself to, so I will apologze to you even though you didn't read it. But if you think for one second that anyone who works in a hospital does not have to worry about the costs of operating that hospital than you are insane. This isn't fucking Scrubs, it isn't the people who treat versus the mean old bastards who say no to treatments. Grow up. HCMC is as close to closing its doors as it has ever been, one of the reasons, and probably the biggest reason is people not paying their god damn bills. They lay people off consistently, which means more people without work. Sorry if I care more about my co-workers and their lively hood, and our ability to care for CITIZENS of this country than I do about paying for someone who didn't think enough of our country to follow the laws about getting here.
Feel free to volunteer at a hospital if you would like to see one from the inside. otherwise don't assume a god damn thing about me, just ask me and I will be glad to tell you.
people who go to hosiptals, get services, and then don't pay would be akin to going into a grocery store, grabbing all the food you could hold, waking out and saying, I am sure someone in here is richer than me, make them pay for it.
I hope you aren't in an administrative job as you would run a business into the fucking ground if you never worried about your costs. See, it goes BOTH ways.
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
what would make you happy ? how can this law be changed to make you happy and be fair for both
sides of this debate, I would really like to read this.
Godfather.
Haven't you been reading my post? Or do you just post nonsense with out even thinking about anything? Because I have called you out directly many times and I have also stated my position.
What I don't understand is this- How can any American with common sense support this bill based on these facts:
53% of the 70% who voted for the bill feel this bill will violate peoples civil rights (mainly Hispanics civil rights) - why vote for it if you feel American's will have there civil rights abused?
-the bill was introduced/created by white supremacist groups- FACT
- 1 million dollars have been accepted by white supremacist groups to help fund this bill- FACT (yet you don't care)
- The hidden agenda is to affect minority groups- FACT!! Police officers cannot deport people This is only going to tie up resources - police officers will now be addressing hundreds of calls daily, by residence who believe they see illegal immigrants. See the problem with that? Does anyone really know who an undocumented person is, based on how they look? Do you see the problem? Do you see the profiling? Do you see the waste of time? The Feds are limited in time because they are dealing with more serious crimes.
How is this bill different from federal law? It enforces these powers on Police officers to take more control of the law, however they have not received the proper training on this type of stuff, at least that's what the Governor of AZ stated, good news is that tax payers will have to pay more money for them to receive the training ....... Which at the end of the day, Police will still not be able to deport anyone!
What's the fix? well, that for sure we do not agree on....and would probably be another debate, but this is definitely not helping anyone, it only targets certain people....cost tons of money...... causes more divide .... and promotes hate.
Just an FYI- a drivers license isn't valid proof of citizenship - If it really comes down to it, a person would have to show there birth certificate, a pass port, or other federal approved documents. If I am out for a jog I will have to carry these items, because I could be profiled and then detained.
Answer me directly, stop with your dodging my direct questions .... how does this improve anything?
minimising the number of Illegle people in the US,it could also keep other crimes off the streets and no I'm not saying only brown people are criminals.
what would make you happy ? how can this law be changed to make you happy and be fair for both
sides of this debate, I would really like to read this.
Godfather.
Haven't you been reading my post? Or do you just post nonsense with out even thinking about anything? Because I have called you out directly many times and I have also stated my position.
What I don't understand is this- How can any American with common sense support this bill based on these facts:
53% of the 70% who voted for the bill feel this bill will violate peoples civil rights (mainly Hispanics civil rights) - why vote for it if you feel American's will have there civil rights abused?
-the bill was introduced/created by white supremacist groups- FACT
- 1 million dollars have been accepted by white supremacist groups to help fund this bill- FACT (yet you don't care)
- The hidden agenda is to affect minority groups- FACT!! Police officers cannot deport people This is only going to tie up resources - police officers will now be addressing hundreds of calls daily, by residence who believe they see illegal immigrants. See the problem with that? Does anyone really know who an undocumented person is, based on how they look? Do you see the problem? Do you see the profiling? Do you see the waste of time? The Feds are limited in time because they are dealing with more serious crimes.
How is this bill different from federal law? It enforces these powers on Police officers to take more control of the law, however they have not received the proper training on this type of stuff, at least that's what the Governor of AZ stated, good news is that tax payers will have to pay more money for them to receive the training ....... Which at the end of the day, Police will still not be able to deport anyone!
What's the fix? well, that for sure we do not agree on....and would probably be another debate, but this is definitely not helping anyone, it only targets certain people....cost tons of money...... causes more divide .... and promotes hate.
Just an FYI- a drivers license isn't valid proof of citizenship - If it really comes down to it, a person would have to show there birth certificate, a pass port, or other federal approved documents. If I am out for a jog I will have to carry these items, because I could be profiled and then detained.
Answer me directly, stop with your dodging my direct questions .... how does this improve anything?
minimising the number of Illegle people in the US,it could also keep other crimes off the streets and no I'm not saying only brown people are criminals.
Godfather.
You fail to address the bill- and my direct question to you...... How can 53% OF people support this when they believe it will violate the civil rights of a selected few, how can you support this based on the fact that the bill was introduced by people affiliated by white supremacist groups... you claim that you are not a racist, but you wont denounce this.
This bill does nothing, but give police officers more authority to arrest people bases on profiling or lack of paper work, but yet they still can't deport anyone..... The Feds are the only ones.... it creates divide, more spending, and doesn't really do anything that the Feds aren't doing already......
The Feds deport people everyday, I am not against that....I am against this bill...
How do you still support the bill? I'm not talking about illegal immigrants.... I am talking about the bill.....
I haven't said one word about how much we "need" them. If a business wants to hire them, go right ahead. I have already laid out what I think should happen as far as immigraton goes. I am all for migrant worker programs and letting anyone who wants to come here to try and get a job. Just come through the front door. I went into greater detail in some other posts so I am not going to repeat myself, but tell me, what about the numbers I showed you seems sustainable? What would unemployment look like if 340,000,000 more people were allowed to come on in. I can tell you that there would be a lot more people standing in line for gov't cheese.
And you are right, I feel that all entitlement programs are unsustainable. Look at social security. It is spending itself dry. I think sustainability is a great point when talking about politics, I think it needs to be brought up more. You cannot just say that something being unsustainable should not be allowed in discussion. Being able to pay for things as a country, and being able to continue programs and fund them properly is a HUGE issue. An sorry if you think I am focusing simply on the people, they are the ones who are breaking the law. Not me. If I have to pay a higher price for an orange to be able to have a border that is secure and safe for all those involved in, than by all means, gouge me.
So I listed benefits of coming here legally, Can you list the benefits to the American people and to the immigrants when they are allowed to come here illegally? And before you talk about cheap labor and blah blah blah, answer me this, how many times in your life and on this board have you talked about the US and exploitation?
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
what would make you happy ? how can this law be changed to make you happy and be fair for both
sides of this debate, I would really like to read this.
Godfather.
Just an FYI- a drivers license isn't valid proof of citizenship - If it really comes down to it, a person would have to show there birth certificate, a pass port, or other federal approved documents. If I am out for a jog I will have to carry these items, because I could be profiled and then detained.
Just an fyi- this is the most misleading and wrong thing that the lefties keep talking about. No one is going to stop someone on a jog and ask for identification. They are going to ask for ID when they stop you for another CRIME or TRAFFIC violation, which they do every day!!! So unless you are Punch Jogging you should be fine
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
Again, entitlement because you or your ancestors were born here.. you equate this too "success in life"? Really?
Maybe we should deport deadbeats who don't pay their debts or homeless people who eat up public funds as well? Where does the entitlement exactly stop? Say when...
And do not, under any circumstances try to give someone you don't know advice about where they work based on an internet post. That is ridiculous. I love my job, and I want to keep it, which is why health care COSTS need to be handled much more than just giving everyone health INSURANCE. I understand the need for public health, immunization programs, std and hiv control and testing, TB, etc. But I certainly don't think it is the responsibility of the people of the United states to pay for someone from ANOTHER COUNTRIES health care. That has nothing to do with being burnt out at my job asshole, it has to do with being realistic and thining our limited resources are better served when given to the people of this country. Sorry if that conflicts with the ridiculous view that everyone should get everything paid for by people who have been successful in life.
I have already answered this in another post, but why on earth are you focusing on small parts of larger posts and then talking about entitlements? I cannot tell if you are for those types of programs or are against them. Please explain in more detail. Because they way it sounds to me is that you think rich people were all given things and everyone else has been unlucky
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
what would make you happy ? how can this law be changed to make you happy and be fair for both
sides of this debate, I would really like to read this.
Godfather.
Just an FYI- a drivers license isn't valid proof of citizenship - If it really comes down to it, a person would have to show there birth certificate, a pass port, or other federal approved documents. If I am out for a jog I will have to carry these items, because I could be profiled and then detained.
Just an fyi- this is the most misleading and wrong thing that the lefties keep talking about. No one is going to stop someone on a jog and ask for identification. They are going to ask for ID when they stop you for another CRIME or TRAFFIC violation, which they do every day!!! So unless you are Punch Jogging you should be fine
When you travel abroad and then return why aren't you allow to reenter the country with simply your drivers license?
Do you not understand that if a police officer feels he needs proof of your citizenship he will need more then your driver licenses. Federal Government describes these as - a Birth certificate, pass port, etc..etc.. not a drivers license.
A conservative talk show that I was listening to on tuesday said that if your in a car with more then 6 brown people in it, then that should be seen as suspicious, and should be reason enough to question these people. That is what the right is promoting. I do not have anything against the Feds deporting people, but I do have a problem with this bill and I think I have laid out plenty of facts to support my position and to support the racism in this bill.
I don't think the bill has anything to do with racism,it's targeting a specific problem, take for instance the rico act,if you are a known friend of mine and I commit a crime you could be charged with the same crime
if the feds can prove you have knoledge of the crime or are a person in my circle and all that could be proven with a photograph of you and I having lunch before the crime was commited.
not saying I am agreeing with any civil rights violations but there is a thin line drawn between your civil rights and those who's civil rights could be violated by the crimes another person commits,in short what about the civil rights of the people that live and work pay tax's and contribute to the economy that don't think it's fair to
have their tax dollars spent on people that are not citizens of this country. it's a thin line and this issue has been pushed to this point.
IF YOU CROSS THE NORTH KOREAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU GET 12 YEARS HARD LABOR.
IF YOU CROSS THE IRANIAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU ARE DETAINED INDEFINITELY.
IF YOU CROSS THE AFGHAN BORDER ILLEGALLY, YOU GET SHOT.
IF YOU CROSS THE SAUDI ARABIAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU WILL BE JAILED.
IF YOU CROSS THE CHINESE BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU MAY NEVER BE HEARD FROM AGAIN.
IF YOU CROSS THE VENEZUELAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU WILL BE BRANDED A SPY AND YOUR FATE WILL BE SEALED.
IF YOU CROSS THE CUBAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU WILL BE THROWN INTO POLITICAL PRISON TO ROT.
IF YOU CROSS THE U.S. BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU GET
1 - A JOB,
2 - A DRIVERS LICENSE,
3 - SOCIAL SECURITY CARD,
4 - WELFARE,
5 - FOOD STAMPS,
6 - CREDIT CARDS,
7 - SUBSIDIZED RENT OR A LOAN TO BUY A HOUSE,
8 - FREE EDUCATION,
9 - FREE HEALTH CARE,
10 - A LOBBYIST IN WASHINGTON
11 - BILLIONS OF DOLLARS WORTH OF PUBLIC DOCUMENTS PRINTED IN YOUR LANGUAGE
12 - AND THE RIGHT TO CARRY YOUR COUNTRY'S FLAG WHILE YOU PROTEST THAT YOU DON'T GET ENOUGH RESPECT
I JUST WANTED TO MAKE SURE I HAD A FIRM GRASP ON THE SITUATION.
Got this emailed to me this am from a friend. She and I have never talked politics, 35 years, my better half of the Buzz twins. It shocks me how this is hitting everyone, one side or the other. Its time something is done.
Its a complicated situation, we would love to have open arms, it's what our country is based on but we are in trouble. We are over taxed and under represented. Some of us think its even too late(me) but something must be done to stop this. We can not (sheer numbers tell us this) sustain illegal immigrants any longer. So Mr. President "What do you say... Calling out"
stop the free hand outs, what is your plan?
...
Explain...
Is the point of the E-Mail one that says we should be more like North Korea, Iran, China, Venezuela, Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia?
And as a fact check:
1 - A JOB, No true. You are NOT given a job. An American business man hires you for sub-standard wages so he does not have to pay taxes on you, provide a safe workplace, hold any liability for any injuries or illnesses you contract while on hie time... so he can have more money for himself.
2 - A DRIVERS LICENSE, False. You do not get a drivers license. You can buy a forged drivers license, more than likely, from an American Citizen who uses illegal immigrants to solicit business from othere illegal immigrants.
3 - SOCIAL SECURITY CARD, False. See above.
4 - WELFARE, False. Maybe Food Stamps on the black market or you can try your luck with forged documents, but you can't just get Welfare by asking for it. Prove me wrong by trying to get on Welfare yourself.
5 - FOOD STAMPS, See above.
6 - CREDIT CARDS, Who's to blame for that? Shuodln't the institutions handing OUT the credit cards have some responsibility? I mean, they are the ones who will lose in this proposition.
7 - SUBSIDIZED RENT OR A LOAN TO BUY A HOUSE, Explanation or Proof need fror this. I'm calling bullshit on this one.
8 - FREE EDUCATION, Again, who's fault is this. I thought you had to register your kids in schools.
9 - FREE HEALTH CARE, I have heard the stories... go in for care... don't pay the bills. Maybe our current Health Care system needs some REFORM???
10 - A LOBBYIST IN WASHINGTON Who?
11 - BILLIONS OF DOLLARS WORTH OF PUBLIC DOCUMENTS PRINTED IN YOUR LANGUAGE And the language of naturalized American Citizens.
12 - AND THE RIGHT TO CARRY YOUR COUNTRY'S FLAG WHILE YOU PROTEST THAT YOU DON'T GET ENOUGH RESPECT - Because this is STILL America and we do not force people to wave our flag.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
When you travel abroad and then return why aren't you allow to reenter the country with simply your drivers license?
Do you not understand that if a police officer feels he needs proof of your citizenship he will need more then your driver licenses. Federal Government describes these as - a Birth certificate, pass port, etc..etc.. not a drivers license.
A conservative talk show that I was listening to on tuesday said that if your in a car with more then 6 brown people in it, then that should be seen as suspicious, and should be reason enough to question these people. That is what the right is promoting. I do not have anything against the Feds deporting people, but I do have a problem with this bill and I think I have laid out plenty of facts to support my position and to support the racism in this bill.
You are right, I am required to show a passport. What is wrong with that? Also, I was able to do it from costa rica a few years back, that is enter the US with just a driver's license.
What you see as racism I see as something different. But we just have to agree to disagree. If there is racism and racial profiling in this law, than it will be struck down by the supreme court of either Arizona or the United States. Simple as that. if it isn't, than people need to shut up about the racism, because at that point a bunch of the brightest legal minds in the country will have reviewed it and weighed it against the constitution(s) and given it the go ahead. Seems simple to me, and at the very least this law povokes the US government into doing something because the status quo isn't working.
you might find this interesting for what it's worth
Kind of a interesting video if anyone has the whole hearing I would love to see it all.
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
When you travel abroad and then return why aren't you allow to reenter the country with simply your drivers license?
Do you not understand that if a police officer feels he needs proof of your citizenship he will need more then your driver licenses. Federal Government describes these as - a Birth certificate, pass port, etc..etc.. not a drivers license.
A conservative talk show that I was listening to on tuesday said that if your in a car with more then 6 brown people in it, then that should be seen as suspicious, and should be reason enough to question these people. That is what the right is promoting. I do not have anything against the Feds deporting people, but I do have a problem with this bill and I think I have laid out plenty of facts to support my position and to support the racism in this bill.
You are right, I am required to show a passport. What is wrong with that? Also, I was able to do it from costa rica a few years back, that is enter the US with just a driver's license.
What you see as racism I see as something different. But we just have to agree to disagree. If there is racism and racial profiling in this law, than it will be struck down by the supreme court of either Arizona or the United States. Simple as that. if it isn't, than people need to shut up about the racism, because at that point a bunch of the brightest legal minds in the country will have reviewed it and weighed it against the constitution(s) and given it the go ahead. Seems simple to me, and at the very least this law povokes the US government into doing something because the status quo isn't working.
you might find this interesting for what it's worth
Kind of a interesting video if anyone has the whole hearing I would love to see it all.
Everyone is required to show there passport when entering the country - "EVERYONE", is the key.
that's when entering the country, now in the case of AZ i would be required to show that type of proof because now police officers are targeting people who they believe might be illegal immigrants..... Police officers have not received any type of specific training on how to target illegal immigrants... They would have to use there judgment...... The Governor of AZ state that they will begin to receive training.... costing more money, when in the end they still cannot deport anyone!!! They still need to turn them into the Feds....where is your common sense?
The fact that the bill was created by people associated with white supremacists groups means nothing, right? The fact that this bill received 1 million dollars from white supremacist groups means nothing, right??
The fact that 53% of the people who voted for this bill believe this bill will violate civil rights issues means nothing, right???
I'm done with you, like you are done with me... I have laid out the facts...this is a waste of money and was generated by hate, yet it still doesn't solve anything....just divides people.... but if you rather the bill be shut down by the courts then, lets just continue to look beyond the truth..... HATE
I don't think the bill has anything to do with racism,it's targeting a specific problem, take for instance the rico act,if you are a known friend of mine and I commit a crime you could be charged with the same crime
if the feds can prove you have knoledge of the crime or are a person in my circle and all that could be proven with a photograph of you and I having lunch before the crime was commited.
not saying I am agreeing with any civil rights violations but there is a thin line drawn between your civil rights and those who's civil rights could be violated by the crimes another person commits,in short what about the civil rights of the people that live and work pay tax's and contribute to the economy that don't think it's fair to
have their tax dollars spent on people that are not citizens of this country. it's a thin line and this issue has been pushed to this point.
dose this answer your question to me ?
Godfather.
So because some civil rights are currently being violated, which would affect both you and i (as tax payers), we can now justify violating other civil rights???? So now I will be violated double the amount.... ........ Where is your commonsense?
No you did not answer my direct question- You still support this bill even though it doesn't do anything but create divide... The bill was created by people associated with white supremacist groups - there agenda is clear..... and you still support it...
I support the Feds doing there day to day job, which does mean deporting people.. I don't support this bill because of the agenda and the fact that it really doesn't change anything other then giving untrained people the ability to harass other people based on the color of there skin or there appearance...
I'm done with you, as you are done with me.
When you travel abroad and then return why aren't you allow to reenter the country with simply your drivers license?
Do you not understand that if a police officer feels he needs proof of your citizenship he will need more then your driver licenses. Federal Government describes these as - a Birth certificate, pass port, etc..etc.. not a drivers license.
A conservative talk show that I was listening to on tuesday said that if your in a car with more then 6 brown people in it, then that should be seen as suspicious, and should be reason enough to question these people. That is what the right is promoting. I do not have anything against the Feds deporting people, but I do have a problem with this bill and I think I have laid out plenty of facts to support my position and to support the racism in this bill.
You are right, I am required to show a passport. What is wrong with that? Also, I was able to do it from costa rica a few years back, that is enter the US with just a driver's license.
What you see as racism I see as something different. But we just have to agree to disagree. If there is racism and racial profiling in this law, than it will be struck down by the supreme court of either Arizona or the United States. Simple as that. if it isn't, than people need to shut up about the racism, because at that point a bunch of the brightest legal minds in the country will have reviewed it and weighed it against the constitution(s) and given it the go ahead. Seems simple to me, and at the very least this law povokes the US government into doing something because the status quo isn't working.
you might find this interesting for what it's worth
Kind of a interesting video if anyone has the whole hearing I would love to see it all.
Everyone is required to show there passport when entering the country - "EVERYONE", is the key.
that's when entering the country, now in the case of AZ i would be required to show that type of proof because now police officers are targeting people who they believe might be illegal immigrants..... Police officers have not received any type of specific training on how to target illegal immigrants... They would have to use there judgment...... The Governor of AZ state that they will begin to receive training.... costing more money, when in the end they still cannot deport anyone!!! They still need to turn them into the Feds....where is your common sense?
The fact that the bill was created by people associated with white supremacists groups means nothing, right? The fact that this bill received 1 million dollars from white supremacist groups means nothing, right??
The fact that 53% of the people who voted for this bill believe this bill will violate civil rights issues means nothing, right???
I'm done with you, like you are done with me... I have laid out the facts...this is a waste of money and was generated by hate, yet it still doesn't solve anything....just divides people.... but if you rather the bill be shut down by the courts then, lets just continue to look beyond the truth..... HATE
why so angry, I really have been pretty respectful during all of our back and forths, I never said I was done with you, I just said I don't see the racism you see. Senator Byrd was a leader of the KKK, he is still in the senate. Are you protesting him? Do you work to get him kicked out of the senate? Being passionate about what ifs seems like a waste of energy.
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
I think I found what you were reffering too and despite the clear bias he writes with I think it is interesting. I don't think anyone in politics is "clean". And I really don't think this law is in place to keep minorities from voting. I think if any of the "charges" were true they would be investigated by the current administration. I don't understand the idea that Karl Rove is somehow this puppet master.
Quite frankly, I thought the article was written with way too much personal slant. He seems to come from the Michael Moore school of journalism. It clouds the charges in the article in my opinion. Look, there are ways to get your birth certificate. We have a staff dedicated at HCMC to preparing and handing out birth certificates. Ignorance is no excuse in not having one. Being poor isn't an excuse. You can still get your birth certificate.
But I will say, that if republicans are guilty of voter fraud so are democrats. Interesting that he only thinks republicans are guilty of it.
Too much conspiracy not enough proof as far as I am concerned. But it was definitely a good opinion piece.
how about you polaris?
Post edited by mikepegg44 on
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
Comments
so they should tighten up the borders
racial profiling and arresting people that don't have "documentation" in their pockets is just down-right unamerican... but then again so is torture (i.e water-boarding) and a lot of people think that is ok too....
i guess if they are not "really" american then the "all men are created equal" bullshit really IS just bullshit (as we know it kind of is anyway... right?)
But can you list some legitimate reasons why anyone would and should go through the immigration process which benefits them in the long term? Not a very difficult question, but when you ask it, you slowly realize it's not a practical, inclusive or beneficial resolve to this problem. Just put yourself in the shoes of one of these people and you clearly understand why this issue is really not black and white.
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
What handouts?
Health care for one. Illegal immigrants can present at a hospital and be taken care of and who pays for it? who gets that bill? All of us do. It has to stop. I don't even want to pay for someone else's health care who is here legally, I sure as hell don't want to do it for someone who is not.
And don't tell me they pay taxes and that bull shit because not all of them do. The fact is that if they make as little as people claim then they in fact pay NO income taxes like about 47% of this country. So let's quit talking about how much they contribute as far as taxes go. Social security, sure, medicaid, sure, but they don't use MA when going to the hospital because they cannot apply for it because they have no legal status. They just show up. It is a huge cost burden, even at my clinic which is tiny in scope compared to most.
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
wake up sunshine it will NEVER HAPPEN there is way too much power in the hands of way too many people !
dream on.
Godfather.
here's my question for all of those that are against paying for helathcare for the millions of children that don't have any... do you oppose paying for their education? do you not think education should be mandatory? if it's mandatory and paid for out of our tax dollars is it a socialist program? what the hell good is mandatory school if we don't even give a shit about keeping the little buggers alive and well?
sounds like you are burnt out and a clinic is probably no longer best suited to you at this point in time....
from WWI and on probably.
Godfather.
Welcome- the discussion- "Choice" is always good- the main reason of this thread was to boycott AZ- for its bad choice.
its a bad choice because it does nothing to solve the problem, it only promotes/creates hate.
70% of Arizonans supported this bill, 53% of those who supported it believed it would violate civil rights.... Why support this bill if it will create civil rights issues(more specifically Hispanics)? Making us second class citizens.
The bill was created by people involved with white supremacist groups- 1 million dollars have been donated by white supremacist groups to this cause.
But really how does the bill differ from the law of the land? Well it just gives more powers to police officers to basically promise not to harass people based on race - They are to simply use there best judgment- when going after undocumented people. They do not have to proper training - The Governor said it herself- that Police officers will begin training on this.....
Police officers cannot deport anyone, they can only hand them over to the FEDS- the FEDS are already overwhelmed with serious crimes....
This is going to cause more divide and more money because Citizens will not be calling police every time they see someone who they believe is an undocumented immigrant, and police will have to be addressing those calls. IT's going to nastier then it is now..... A lot of RACIAL tensions ..........
Hope this kind of sums it up for you.........
What you get from following the law, immunity to things like this law in Arizona for one. You get the right to vote, you get the right to work without fear of immigration coming and knocking at your door. Basically you get to be here and get afforded all the rights all of us get. Seems simple enough.
That is really a disturbing question that you asked, as if it is justified in breaking the laws of this country because they aren't the easy way of doing things. If you respect the laws, the country will respect you and give you all the rights and privileges everyone here thinks they deserve. does it take awhile, yes, but do you honestly think that you and I would have the same quality of life that we have now if we just opened our borders to everyone?
Let's forget about the people who hate us, but solely focus on those who just want to come here to better their life. If it was free and easy to come here, how many people in the world would come? I a conservative estimate is 5%. That is 5% of the 6.8 billion people in the world, that is 340,000,000 more people in the country. Do you honestly think we can sustain that? The same people who are complaining because the government isn't creating more jobs are the same ones wanting the god damn borders to be open and free. When you look at it that way it seems pretty simple to me.
and another thing, we, unlike most EU countries that so many want to emmulate, still have birth right citizenship for christ's sake. It is unsustainable.
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
If you don't want to consider the financial benefits illegals immigrants contribute to our nation, then I cannot win on this debate. That's like saying 20 million people come here and just sit on there ASS and collect from US citizen
I really hope your not a nurse or someone who is suppose to be worried about saving life's; Instead of worrying about how much this is costing your clinic....Hopefully your an administrative person, because it's sad to think that you are more worried about a person ability to pay instead of trying to preserve life.
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
The federal government has no costitutional authority to pay for public education. That is a local and state government issue and should be treated as one. And to answer your question, no I don't think education should be mandatory. And yes, I do think it is a socialistic program. It is the government taking resources and providing benefits to their people. Which is really the definition of socialism. I am not saying I am against public education, but I do think it has multitudes of issues that need to be addressed before it all falls apart, at least in MN.
And do not, under any circumstances try to give someone you don't know advice about where they work based on an internet post. That is ridiculous. I love my job, and I want to keep it, which is why health care COSTS need to be handled much more than just giving everyone health INSURANCE. I understand the need for public health, immunization programs, std and hiv control and testing, TB, etc. But I certainly don't think it is the responsibility of the people of the United states to pay for someone from ANOTHER COUNTRIES health care. That has nothing to do with being burnt out at my job asshole, it has to do with being realistic and thining our limited resources are better served when given to the people of this country. Sorry if that conflicts with the ridiculous view that everyone should get everything paid for by people who have been successful in life.
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
Maybe we should deport deadbeats who don't pay their debts or homeless people who eat up public funds as well? Where does the entitlement exactly stop? Say when...
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
Haven't you been reading my post? Or do you just post nonsense with out even thinking about anything? Because I have called you out directly many times and I have also stated my position.
What I don't understand is this- How can any American with common sense support this bill based on these facts:
53% of the 70% who voted for the bill feel this bill will violate peoples civil rights (mainly Hispanics civil rights) - why vote for it if you feel American's will have there civil rights abused?
-the bill was introduced/created by white supremacist groups- FACT
- 1 million dollars have been accepted by white supremacist groups to help fund this bill- FACT (yet you don't care)
- The hidden agenda is to affect minority groups- FACT!! Police officers cannot deport people This is only going to tie up resources - police officers will now be addressing hundreds of calls daily, by residence who believe they see illegal immigrants. See the problem with that? Does anyone really know who an undocumented person is, based on how they look? Do you see the problem? Do you see the profiling? Do you see the waste of time? The Feds are limited in time because they are dealing with more serious crimes.
How is this bill different from federal law? It enforces these powers on Police officers to take more control of the law, however they have not received the proper training on this type of stuff, at least that's what the Governor of AZ stated, good news is that tax payers will have to pay more money for them to receive the training ....... Which at the end of the day, Police will still not be able to deport anyone!
What's the fix? well, that for sure we do not agree on....and would probably be another debate, but this is definitely not helping anyone, it only targets certain people....cost tons of money...... causes more divide .... and promotes hate.
Just an FYI- a drivers license isn't valid proof of citizenship - If it really comes down to it, a person would have to show there birth certificate, a pass port, or other federal approved documents. If I am out for a jog I will have to carry these items, because I could be profiled and then detained.
Answer me directly, stop with your dodging my direct questions .... how does this improve anything?
I had to ad to this post:
I have never said anything on this board that I am against the Federal Governments actions of deporting people daily! I am not asking them to stop that part of there operation.
This thread, this debate is about the Bill in Arizona. Which is driven by racism
I find there to be financial benefits of illegal immigrants sure, but if you are going to tell me they pay income taxes I am going to say that if most are coming here and working for minimum wage and for cheap like most claim they do not pay income taxes like almost half of the country. I never said a thing about them all comin here and being lazy. But if you aren't going to try and understand the cost of illegal immigrants I cannot win on this debate. It goes both ways.
I intially typed something that I will not lower myself to, so I will apologze to you even though you didn't read it. But if you think for one second that anyone who works in a hospital does not have to worry about the costs of operating that hospital than you are insane. This isn't fucking Scrubs, it isn't the people who treat versus the mean old bastards who say no to treatments. Grow up. HCMC is as close to closing its doors as it has ever been, one of the reasons, and probably the biggest reason is people not paying their god damn bills. They lay people off consistently, which means more people without work. Sorry if I care more about my co-workers and their lively hood, and our ability to care for CITIZENS of this country than I do about paying for someone who didn't think enough of our country to follow the laws about getting here.
Feel free to volunteer at a hospital if you would like to see one from the inside. otherwise don't assume a god damn thing about me, just ask me and I will be glad to tell you.
people who go to hosiptals, get services, and then don't pay would be akin to going into a grocery store, grabbing all the food you could hold, waking out and saying, I am sure someone in here is richer than me, make them pay for it.
I hope you aren't in an administrative job as you would run a business into the fucking ground if you never worried about your costs. See, it goes BOTH ways.
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
minimising the number of Illegle people in the US,it could also keep other crimes off the streets and no I'm not saying only brown people are criminals.
Godfather.
You fail to address the bill- and my direct question to you...... How can 53% OF people support this when they believe it will violate the civil rights of a selected few, how can you support this based on the fact that the bill was introduced by people affiliated by white supremacist groups... you claim that you are not a racist, but you wont denounce this.
This bill does nothing, but give police officers more authority to arrest people bases on profiling or lack of paper work, but yet they still can't deport anyone..... The Feds are the only ones.... it creates divide, more spending, and doesn't really do anything that the Feds aren't doing already......
The Feds deport people everyday, I am not against that....I am against this bill...
How do you still support the bill? I'm not talking about illegal immigrants.... I am talking about the bill.....
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
Just an fyi- this is the most misleading and wrong thing that the lefties keep talking about. No one is going to stop someone on a jog and ask for identification. They are going to ask for ID when they stop you for another CRIME or TRAFFIC violation, which they do every day!!! So unless you are Punch Jogging you should be fine
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
I have already answered this in another post, but why on earth are you focusing on small parts of larger posts and then talking about entitlements? I cannot tell if you are for those types of programs or are against them. Please explain in more detail. Because they way it sounds to me is that you think rich people were all given things and everyone else has been unlucky
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
When you travel abroad and then return why aren't you allow to reenter the country with simply your drivers license?
Do you not understand that if a police officer feels he needs proof of your citizenship he will need more then your driver licenses. Federal Government describes these as - a Birth certificate, pass port, etc..etc.. not a drivers license.
A conservative talk show that I was listening to on tuesday said that if your in a car with more then 6 brown people in it, then that should be seen as suspicious, and should be reason enough to question these people. That is what the right is promoting. I do not have anything against the Feds deporting people, but I do have a problem with this bill and I think I have laid out plenty of facts to support my position and to support the racism in this bill.
if the feds can prove you have knoledge of the crime or are a person in my circle and all that could be proven with a photograph of you and I having lunch before the crime was commited.
not saying I am agreeing with any civil rights violations but there is a thin line drawn between your civil rights and those who's civil rights could be violated by the crimes another person commits,in short what about the civil rights of the people that live and work pay tax's and contribute to the economy that don't think it's fair to
have their tax dollars spent on people that are not citizens of this country. it's a thin line and this issue has been pushed to this point.
dose this answer your question to me ?
Godfather.
Explain...
Is the point of the E-Mail one that says we should be more like North Korea, Iran, China, Venezuela, Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia?
And as a fact check:
1 - A JOB, No true. You are NOT given a job. An American business man hires you for sub-standard wages so he does not have to pay taxes on you, provide a safe workplace, hold any liability for any injuries or illnesses you contract while on hie time... so he can have more money for himself.
2 - A DRIVERS LICENSE, False. You do not get a drivers license. You can buy a forged drivers license, more than likely, from an American Citizen who uses illegal immigrants to solicit business from othere illegal immigrants.
3 - SOCIAL SECURITY CARD, False. See above.
4 - WELFARE, False. Maybe Food Stamps on the black market or you can try your luck with forged documents, but you can't just get Welfare by asking for it. Prove me wrong by trying to get on Welfare yourself.
5 - FOOD STAMPS, See above.
6 - CREDIT CARDS, Who's to blame for that? Shuodln't the institutions handing OUT the credit cards have some responsibility? I mean, they are the ones who will lose in this proposition.
7 - SUBSIDIZED RENT OR A LOAN TO BUY A HOUSE, Explanation or Proof need fror this. I'm calling bullshit on this one.
8 - FREE EDUCATION, Again, who's fault is this. I thought you had to register your kids in schools.
9 - FREE HEALTH CARE, I have heard the stories... go in for care... don't pay the bills. Maybe our current Health Care system needs some REFORM???
10 - A LOBBYIST IN WASHINGTON Who?
11 - BILLIONS OF DOLLARS WORTH OF PUBLIC DOCUMENTS PRINTED IN YOUR LANGUAGE And the language of naturalized American Citizens.
12 - AND THE RIGHT TO CARRY YOUR COUNTRY'S FLAG WHILE YOU PROTEST THAT YOU DON'T GET ENOUGH RESPECT - Because this is STILL America and we do not force people to wave our flag.
Hail, Hail!!!
What you see as racism I see as something different. But we just have to agree to disagree. If there is racism and racial profiling in this law, than it will be struck down by the supreme court of either Arizona or the United States. Simple as that. if it isn't, than people need to shut up about the racism, because at that point a bunch of the brightest legal minds in the country will have reviewed it and weighed it against the constitution(s) and given it the go ahead. Seems simple to me, and at the very least this law povokes the US government into doing something because the status quo isn't working.
you might find this interesting for what it's worth
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/ ... _been.html
Kind of a interesting video if anyone has the whole hearing I would love to see it all.
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
Everyone is required to show there passport when entering the country - "EVERYONE", is the key.
that's when entering the country, now in the case of AZ i would be required to show that type of proof because now police officers are targeting people who they believe might be illegal immigrants..... Police officers have not received any type of specific training on how to target illegal immigrants... They would have to use there judgment...... The Governor of AZ state that they will begin to receive training.... costing more money, when in the end they still cannot deport anyone!!! They still need to turn them into the Feds....where is your common sense?
The fact that the bill was created by people associated with white supremacists groups means nothing, right? The fact that this bill received 1 million dollars from white supremacist groups means nothing, right??
The fact that 53% of the people who voted for this bill believe this bill will violate civil rights issues means nothing, right???
I'm done with you, like you are done with me... I have laid out the facts...this is a waste of money and was generated by hate, yet it still doesn't solve anything....just divides people.... but if you rather the bill be shut down by the courts then, lets just continue to look beyond the truth..... HATE
So because some civil rights are currently being violated, which would affect both you and i (as tax payers), we can now justify violating other civil rights???? So now I will be violated double the amount....
No you did not answer my direct question- You still support this bill even though it doesn't do anything but create divide... The bill was created by people associated with white supremacist groups - there agenda is clear..... and you still support it...
I support the Feds doing there day to day job, which does mean deporting people.. I don't support this bill because of the agenda and the fact that it really doesn't change anything other then giving untrained people the ability to harass other people based on the color of there skin or there appearance...
I'm done with you, as you are done with me.
why so angry, I really have been pretty respectful during all of our back and forths, I never said I was done with you, I just said I don't see the racism you see. Senator Byrd was a leader of the KKK, he is still in the senate. Are you protesting him? Do you work to get him kicked out of the senate? Being passionate about what ifs seems like a waste of energy.
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
didn't read it, I will find out and edit this when I do.
http://www.gregpalast.com/behind-the-ar ... -election/
I think I found what you were reffering too and despite the clear bias he writes with I think it is interesting. I don't think anyone in politics is "clean". And I really don't think this law is in place to keep minorities from voting. I think if any of the "charges" were true they would be investigated by the current administration. I don't understand the idea that Karl Rove is somehow this puppet master.
Quite frankly, I thought the article was written with way too much personal slant. He seems to come from the Michael Moore school of journalism. It clouds the charges in the article in my opinion. Look, there are ways to get your birth certificate. We have a staff dedicated at HCMC to preparing and handing out birth certificates. Ignorance is no excuse in not having one. Being poor isn't an excuse. You can still get your birth certificate.
But I will say, that if republicans are guilty of voter fraud so are democrats. Interesting that he only thinks republicans are guilty of it.
Too much conspiracy not enough proof as far as I am concerned. But it was definitely a good opinion piece.
how about you polaris?
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan