Ukraine

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  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 9,697
    edited February 2022
    If that comes across to you as indifferent, your mental gymnastics are impressive AF. 
    He literally says what do Americans have to gain with a war from Russia. You don’t need any mental gymnastics to conclude Tucker only wants to act if it benefits America/him. Just need to read or listen to what he says.
    He only cares about America and himself, not Russia or Ukraine. No kind of gymnastics, physical or mental, required.
    Post edited by mace1229 on
  • mace1229 said:
    He literally says what do Americans have to gain with a war from Russia. You don’t need any mental gymnastics to conclude Tucker only wants to act if it benefits America/him. Just need to read or listen to what he says.
    He only cares about America and himself, not Russia or Ukraine. No kind of gymnastics, physical or mental, required.
    You believe Tucker Carlson cares about America? 

    That's precious. 
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon Winnipeg Posts: 39,106
    tucker isn't pro russian. he's anti-democrat. if biden said he was going to let ukraine deal with its own problems, his segment would have been the opposite, that we need to be the american beacon of hope our forefathers envisioned, where we helped our neighbours in trouble, stood up to bullies, etc, etc. 
    "every society honours its live conformists and its dead troublemakers"




  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 16,741
    I'm concerned re:Putin cause I really wonder if anything matters other than force to him.

    And it concerns me what this sets up China to do.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • RoleModelsinBlood31RoleModelsinBlood31 Austin TX Posts: 6,227
    The only good thing I see in any of this concerning China is that they’re up to their balls in omicron from the virus they themselves created right now, so the timing isn’t ideal for them to invade Taiwan.  I don’t think that means they won’t, but maybe it hampers their plans a bit?
    I'm like an opening band for your mom.
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon Winnipeg Posts: 39,106
    the virus they created. ugh. 
    "every society honours its live conformists and its dead troublemakers"




  • Jearlpam0925Jearlpam0925 Deep South Philly Posts: 17,436
    edited February 2022
    Fuck me, the way these fucking threads pivot and turn into trash is ridiculous. And we wonder why Asian Americans in this country are getting assaulted on the street.
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 30,591
    mace1229 said:
    He literally says what do Americans have to gain with a war from Russia. You don’t need any mental gymnastics to conclude Tucker only wants to act if it benefits America/him. Just need to read or listen to what he says.
    He only cares about America and himself, not Russia or Ukraine. No kind of gymnastics, physical or mental, required.
    It clearly benefits America to assist Ukraine.  One would have to completely misunderstand the power America wields and the power of liberal democracies in order to argue it does not benefit the US.  So arguing that the US should roll over for Putin is precisely the same as supporting Russia, particularly when aping Putin's arguments.  

    Also, don't fall into the trap of saying "Americans have to gain with a war from Russia".  We aren't going to a hot war with Russia.  Our strategy would be no different than when the Soviets assisted the Vietcong and we assisted the Afghans.  So again, Tucker is creating a straw man, using Kremlin talking points, to argue that it's not our problem.  It is our problem.  Democracy is our problem.  European borders are our problem.  Potential for Putin to try to re-create the Soviet Empire is our problem. 
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 23,426
    mace1229 said:
    He literally says what do Americans have to gain with a war from Russia. You don’t need any mental gymnastics to conclude Tucker only wants to act if it benefits America/him. Just need to read or listen to what he says.
    He only cares about America and himself, not Russia or Ukraine. No kind of gymnastics, physical or mental, required.
    name 3 things tucker has been right about, ever.

    he is a talking head on a known biased network. he is a contrarian. all of them. glen beck, tucker, ingraham. judge pirro, all of them are contrarians and have the same schtick. ask questions and then try to answer them with some skewed version of reality. if things were flipped their position would be the exact opposite of what they are now. if a democrat is in office, they side with russia. if a republican is in office they pull the patriotism card and call those that are opposed to war the real enemy. it is propaganda and it is as old as time. they do not give the viewer facts, they try to persuade the viewer that their views are the truth.

    but seriously though. name three things tucker has been right about. i would have asked you to name one, but anybody, including tucker, can get one right over the course of an entire career.
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 9,697
    You believe Tucker Carlson cares about America? 

    That's precious. 
    I said America/himself. He cares what’s good for him but plays it off as what’s good for America.
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 9,697
    edited February 2022
    mrussel1 said:
    It clearly benefits America to assist Ukraine.  One would have to completely misunderstand the power America wields and the power of liberal democracies in order to argue it does not benefit the US.  So arguing that the US should roll over for Putin is precisely the same as supporting Russia, particularly when aping Putin's arguments.  

    Also, don't fall into the trap of saying "Americans have to gain with a war from Russia".  We aren't going to a hot war with Russia.  Our strategy would be no different than when the Soviets assisted the Vietcong and we assisted the Afghans.  So again, Tucker is creating a straw man, using Kremlin talking points, to argue that it's not our problem.  It is our problem.  Democracy is our problem.  European borders are our problem.  Potential for Putin to try to re-create the Soviet Empire is our problem. 
    I agree with that second paragraph (and most of the first). I wasn’t defending anything Tucker said, just pointing it out.
    Post edited by mace1229 on
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 30,591
    mace1229 said:
    I agree with that second paragraph (and most of the first). I wasn’t defending anything Tucker said, just pointing it out.
    I understand,  and I understand that you're not in the Tucker camp.  I just think you are minimizing the effect of his words.  The goal doesn't have to be to cheer Putin.  Simply providing rationalization for the aggression while simultaneously saying we need to stay out, has the exact effect as cheerleading.
  • mace1229 said:
    I said America/himself. He cares what’s good for him but plays it off as what’s good for America.

    At the risk of repeating myself, your mental gymnastics are impressive AF. 
  • Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 31,271
    edited February 2022


    This is slowly starting to reach the level of the Pearl Jam Mötley Crüe feud.
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • The only good thing I see in any of this concerning China is that they’re up to their balls in omicron from the virus they themselves created right now, so the timing isn’t ideal for them to invade Taiwan.  I don’t think that means they won’t, but maybe it hampers their plans a bit?
    Yikes for the second time in 24h
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • BentleyspopBentleyspop Craft Beer Brewery, Colorado Posts: 11,208
    mace1229 said:
    He literally says what do Americans have to gain with a war from Russia. You don’t need any mental gymnastics to conclude Tucker only wants to act if it benefits America/him. Just need to read or listen to what he says.
    He only cares about America and himself, not Russia or Ukraine. No kind of gymnastics, physical or mental, required.
    He cares not one bit about America.
    He only cares about things that benefit him and his orange hued savior 
    And any autocratic dictators that his orange hued savior supports.

  • dignindignin Posts: 9,478
    What Tucker and others do is not benign. 


    Republicans view Putin more favorably than they do leading Democrats
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 9,697

    At the risk of repeating myself, your mental gymnastics are impressive AF. 
    Is that not what I said? How is pointing out exactly the words I used gymnastics?
    I’m flattered you’re impressed though.
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 9,697
    He cares not one bit about America.
    He only cares about things that benefit him and his orange hued savior 
    And any autocratic dictators that his orange hued savior supports.

    Yes. I clarified that he cares about what only impacts him.
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 30,591
    Goddamit. 
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon Winnipeg Posts: 39,106
    after two years of a pandemic, a global conflict is just what the doctor ordered. 
    "every society honours its live conformists and its dead troublemakers"




  • Jearlpam0925Jearlpam0925 Deep South Philly Posts: 17,436
    edited February 2022
    Yeah so full-on invasion isn't going to be about sanctions at that point. Russian military is about to get smoked, and then unfortunately an entire country is going to pay for it with the largest migration of refugees that modern Europe has seen since WW2. And regardless Putin will get the division he wants. This sucks.

    Gonna be a looooonnng road back for Russia to operate with other countries ever again.
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 30,591
    Yeah so full-on invasion isn't going to be about sanctions at that point. Russian military is about to get smoked, and then unfortunately an entire country is going to pay for it with the largest migration of refugees that modern Europe has seen since WW2. And regardless Putin will get the division he wants. This sucks.

    Gonna be a looooonnng road back for Russia to operate with other countries ever again.
    Yes,  right on.  Poland will see a huge refugee population.  The war will be bloody.  Nothing good will come from this 
  • Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 31,271
    edited February 2022
    I would imagine, like with Syria Germany, Sweden and the UK will take a huge responsibility with refugees and other countries will just sit on their hands. 

    And then Trump will mock the countries helping out, while at the same time saying the war is the US fault.
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • RoleModelsinBlood31RoleModelsinBlood31 Austin TX Posts: 6,227
    Yikes for the second time in 24h
    Yikes, sorry I agree with the majority of Americans. You do know that most Americans believe that it leaked from a lab right? Count me in with the rest of them. 


    But for thread integrity, i just watched the tucker thing you guys are talking about, and he’s not siding with Putin, he’s just anti democrat/Biden the whole time.

     “If you’ve been watching the news, you know that Putin is having a border dispute with a nation called Ukraine. Now, the main thing to know about Ukraine for our purposes is that its leaders once sent millions of dollars to Biden’s family. Not surprisingly, Ukraine is now one of Biden’s favorite countries. Biden has pledged to defend Ukraine’s borders even as he opens our borders to the world. That’s how it works. Invading America is called equity. Invading Ukraine is a war crime.”

    He’s saying the narrative that we need to protect Ukraine because Ukraine is a democracy isnt true, as the Ukrainian president has a habit of arresting his political opponents and shutting down news outlets that are critical of him. By all accounts, Ukraine is a tyrannical state, but because Biden is linked with them, the narrative is that they need protection.


    IMO, he’s saying it might be good for Biden but bad for Americans, and while Biden has admitted this fact, we’re being told that denying Putin Ukraine on moral grounds is the greater victory:

     Energy prices in the United States are about to go way up, and that means that everything you buy will become much more expensive, from the food you eat to the car you drive to the tickets you need to take your family on vacation this summer, assuming you can still afford a vacation by then. You’re about to become measurably poorer. That’s not a guess. Joe Biden has admitted this. 

    On the other hand, you’re going to win an important moral victory against dastardly old Vladimir Putin, who is much, much worse than Justin Trudeau. Just so you know. So you can feel good about that because…because…let’s see, come to think of it, why would you feel good about that? It seems like a pretty terrible deal for you and for the United States. Hunter Biden gets a million dollars a year from Ukraine, but you can no longer afford to go out to dinner. That’s not a bargain.”





    I'm like an opening band for your mom.
  • Jearlpam0925Jearlpam0925 Deep South Philly Posts: 17,436
    I would imagine, like with Syria Germany, Sweden and the UK will take a huge responsibility with refugees and other countries will just sit on their hands. 

    And then Trump will mock the countries helping out, while at the same time saying the war is the US fault.
    I hear you. Because if anything - given what NATO is and how beneficial it's to the US - then they/we/the US better fucking pour in with aid like crazy. That is when the dipshits in this country will lose their collective shit.
  • The JugglerThe Juggler Posts: 49,577
    The fact that Trump and all his followers support Russia over the Ukraine and also the United States should be a surprise to absolutely nobody who has paid attention to anything the last 6 years. 
    www.myspace.com
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 30,591
    Yikes, sorry I agree with the majority of Americans. You do know that most Americans believe that it leaked from a lab right? Count me in with the rest of them. 


    But for thread integrity, i just watched the tucker thing you guys are talking about, and he’s not siding with Putin, he’s just anti democrat/Biden the whole time.

     “If you’ve been watching the news, you know that Putin is having a border dispute with a nation called Ukraine. Now, the main thing to know about Ukraine for our purposes is that its leaders once sent millions of dollars to Biden’s family. Not surprisingly, Ukraine is now one of Biden’s favorite countries. Biden has pledged to defend Ukraine’s borders even as he opens our borders to the world. That’s how it works. Invading America is called equity. Invading Ukraine is a war crime.”

    He’s saying the narrative that we need to protect Ukraine because Ukraine is a democracy isnt true, as the Ukrainian president has a habit of arresting his political opponents and shutting down news outlets that are critical of him. By all accounts, Ukraine is a tyrannical state, but because Biden is linked with them, the narrative is that they need protection.


    IMO, he’s saying it might be good for Biden but bad for Americans, and while Biden has admitted this fact, we’re being told that denying Putin Ukraine on moral grounds is the greater victory:

     Energy prices in the United States are about to go way up, and that means that everything you buy will become much more expensive, from the food you eat to the car you drive to the tickets you need to take your family on vacation this summer, assuming you can still afford a vacation by then. You’re about to become measurably poorer. That’s not a guess. Joe Biden has admitted this. 

    On the other hand, you’re going to win an important moral victory against dastardly old Vladimir Putin, who is much, much worse than Justin Trudeau. Just so you know. So you can feel good about that because…because…let’s see, come to think of it, why would you feel good about that? It seems like a pretty terrible deal for you and for the United States. Hunter Biden gets a million dollars a year from Ukraine, but you can no longer afford to go out to dinner. That’s not a bargain.”





    See this is why you should not listen to Tucker.  He is full into the Russia propaganda.  Zelensky signed a decree early this month shutting down three pro Russia televisions stations.  Do you think for one minute that the US would have allowed pro German and pro Japanese radio and television stations operate during the War?  Not a chance.  Did that make the US and anti-democratic nation?  

    Of course Tucker doesn't tell you that.  He makes you think it was just a normal political party opposition that he shut down.  Not the case.  The rest of this is bullshit as well, particularly saying Justin Trudeau is worse that Putin.  Last time I checked JT didn't invade Georgia and Chechnya, killing and displacing hundreds of thousands of civilians.  Putin did.  

    He lies to you.  Lies to you every single day on that television.  
  • The JugglerThe Juggler Posts: 49,577
    The brainwashing continues


    https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/02/23/republicans-view-putin-more-favorably-than-they-do-leading-democrats/

    Republicans view Putin more favorably than they do leading Democrats


    President Biden meets with Russian President Vladimir Putin in Geneva on June 16, 2021. (Denis Balibouse/AFP/Getty Images)
    National correspondent
    Today at 10:01 a.m. EST

    Russian President Vladimir Putin operates within a well-established political framework. He is an autocrat with near-unilateral control over his country. Russia has elections, but no one is under the impression that the results will be allowed to pose a threat to Putin’s power. Personal freedoms are constrained significantly; opponents of Putin’s regime have a habit of succumbing to sudden illness and accidents.

    Yet American Republicans view him slightly more positively than they do leading Democratic officials. Between Putin and President Biden, it’s a toss-up that leans in Putin’s favor.

    Polling from YouGov conducted for the Economist in January provides an apples-to-apples comparison between Putin and various American leaders. Overall, Putin is much less positively viewed than Biden, Vice President Harris or House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D- Calif.), for example. Those officials and the parties are all viewed with some favorability by about a third of the public, as is former president Donald Trump. Only Barack Obama stands out from the crowd here, with a third of Americans viewing him very favorably.


    I added a dashed line there to indicate where Putin’s approval stands with the group.

    That’s a more useful indicator when we look at the views held by Republicans. With Republicans, Putin is viewed far less positively than is Trump — but more positively than sitting Democratic leaders. Interestingly, only Obama matches Putin’s favorability among Republicans, certainly in part a function of his being out of office.


    When we see poll results like this, the appropriate question is whether the difference between Biden and Putin is significant. In other words, the difference between the two presidents might simply be an artifact of the margins of uncertainty built into the poll. But it’s very clear that Republicans aren’t significantly more likely to approve of Biden. It’s just a question of whether they’re significantly more likely to approve of Putin.

    One area in which there’s no statistical question: Republicans are far less likely to say they view Putin very unfavorably than they are to say the same of Biden or other leading Democrats.


    Among Democrats, incidentally, approval of Putin, Trump and the Republican Party are essentially indistinguishable. About two-thirds of Democrats view Putin very unfavorably, about the same as they view the Republican Party. Four in five view Trump very unfavorably.


    In the same poll, YouGov asked respondents whether they thought that Putin and Biden were strong leaders. Overall, Americans were twice as likely to say that Putin was a very or somewhat strong leader as they were to say the same of Biden. Among Democrats, both Putin and Biden were seen equivalently. Republicans were 10 times as likely to describe Putin as strong as they were Biden.


    This appreciation of Putin’s strong-arm leadership certainly helps moderate Republican views of him. Trump’s own description of Putin as “savvy” and as purportedly being emboldened by Biden’s weakness is rooted in his long-demonstrated appreciation of Putin’s perceived strength.

    It’s the sort of strength that probably seems more appealing from afar.

    www.myspace.com
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