Viruses / Vaccines
Comments
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I interacted with a lot of folks who were so begrudged by lockdowns etc. Some via text and some on social media. A cousin of mine who owns a restaurant lost his mind on the internet about the lockdowns... which was understandable in terms of his bitterness.HughFreakingDillon said:I love when people use the economy as an excuse, like it's better that people died rather than losing money.
Then he took it to the next level and started going on about mortality rates and how it didn't make sense to close down because according to him, only a small number would die. And I asked a simple question of him: "So you would consider losing your father forever to keep your restaurant open?" Got a lot of push back, but of course not an answer to that very simple question.
My best friend was working in San Diego during all of this, and when California basically started opening everything, Ontario was closing everything. He sent us a message almost bragging about his situation and how pissed we must be at our government.
I immediately looked at the California death numbers compared to Ontario's per capita and I simply responded: "Do you measure the success of a pandemic response on how quickly you get to go golfing and drinking? Or do you base it on how many people lost life and how many families were torn apart?" I'm happy to say it did give him some pause. Ultimately I think if you go down the rabbit hole of society everyone would say the same thing: Yes, we want freedom, yes we want to go to concerts, yes we want to get back to normal. But no one, not one person would be willing to sacrifice a loved one to get it. And if I met that person who maybe did suggest they would be willing to sacrifice their father for example, I would then want to ask the father.Toronto 2000
Buffalo, Phoenix, Toronto 2003
Boston I&II 2004
Kitchener, Hamilton, London, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto 2005
Toronto I&II, Las Vegas 2006
Chicago Lollapalooza 2007
Toronto, Seattle I&II, Vancouver, Philly I,II,III,IV 2009
Cleveland, Buffalo 2010
Toronto I&II 2011
Buffalo 2013
Toronto I&II 2016
10C: 220xxx0 -
What was swedens compared to other countries.mrussel1 said:What is the death to GDP ratio that you find acceptable?
I actually also meant to ask were they better off, worse off, or the same?
I do not not if they were.
Canada's official death toll is around 26 000, but some say it's double that?
Canada’s COVID-19 death toll may be double the official count: Report (citynews.ca)
There may be no way of knowing what worked best.
Give Peas A Chance…0 -
Err...I'll repost what I posted above. You don't think there's a fair way to evaluate what worked best?Meltdown99 said:What was swedens compared to other countries.
I actually also meant to ask were they better off, worse off, or the same?
I do not not if they were.
Canada's official death toll is around 26 000, but some say it's double that?
Canada’s COVID-19 death toll may be double the official count: Report (citynews.ca)
There may be no way of knowing what worked best.
The Swedish numbers were terrible compared the surrounding Norse countries. They only looked good compared to the US and other poorly managed countries.
Cases per 100k:
Sweden - 10k
Finland - 1900
Norway - 2589
Deaths per 100k:
Sweden - 143
Finland - 18
Norway - 15
Not a success story.
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@Meltdown99 and Sweden had the largest decrease in GDP... so... lose/lose
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1201536/gdp-rate-forecasts-in-the-nordics/
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most of them turn it into a "I'm fine, protect the elderly and the compromised, let the rest of society move on". like locking up the elderly and the compromised indefinitely would be a great solution.Parksy said:I interacted with a lot of folks who were so begrudged by lockdowns etc. Some via text and some on social media. A cousin of mine who owns a restaurant lost his mind on the internet about the lockdowns... which was understandable in terms of his bitterness.
Then he took it to the next level and started going on about mortality rates and how it didn't make sense to close down because according to him, only a small number would die. And I asked a simple question of him: "So you would consider losing your father forever to keep your restaurant open?" Got a lot of push back, but of course not an answer to that very simple question.
My best friend was working in San Diego during all of this, and when California basically started opening everything, Ontario was closing everything. He sent us a message almost bragging about his situation and how pissed we must be at our government.
I immediately looked at the California death numbers compared to Ontario's per capita and I simply responded: "Do you measure the success of a pandemic response on how quickly you get to go golfing and drinking? Or do you base it on how many people lost life and how many families were torn apart?" I'm happy to say it did give him some pause. Ultimately I think if you go down the rabbit hole of society everyone would say the same thing: Yes, we want freedom, yes we want to go to concerts, yes we want to get back to normal. But no one, not one person would be willing to sacrifice a loved one to get it. And if I met that person who maybe did suggest they would be willing to sacrifice their father for example, I would then want to ask the father.
it really speaks to a bigger societal problem where a LOT of people consider their right to go a movie more important than someone else's right to be alive.By The Time They Figure Out What Went Wrong, We'll Be Sitting On A Beach, Earning Twenty Percent.0 -
So my question then would be what did the other two countries do? I also would still like to hear from the guy from Sweden on their response as well as their neighbors.mrussel1 said:The Swedish numbers were terrible compared the surrounding Norse countries. They only looked good compared to the US and other poorly managed countries.
Cases per 100k:
Sweden - 10k
Finland - 1900
Norway - 2589
Deaths per 100k:
Sweden - 143
Finland - 18
Norway - 15
Not a success story.
A quick search of Finland brings up this article from November 19, 2020. https://www.dw.com/en/coronavirus-finland-sweden-role-model/a-55664117Why is Finland coping so well with the coronavirus crisis?
1. Finland reacted swiftly
Back in Spring, as the number of infections skyrocketed around the world, the Finnish government reacted promptly and imposed a two-month long lockdown. Travel to and from Helsinki and the surrounding areas was banned. Schools and other institutions were closed, quickly followed by restaurants.
Now, if you google "Finland Covid" and look at the graph, at the time this probably looked like a good idea. Look at the spikes after this article was written and the 7 day average is trending toward the highest number since it began over a year ago. They are showing around 35% fully vaccinated. The deaths have been virtually non-existent.
When I google "Norway Covid" the graphs are similar. Around the same vaccination rate and deaths are non existent.
Sweden is actually higher vaccinated (around 40%) with way more cases than the other two, however their deaths have virtually disappeared as well.
Can anyone give me an explanation for this? One thing that caught my eye is the amount of testing we are doing here compared to those three. The highest 7 day averages for each of those countries looks like this, with the US in there as well.
Sweden - 51,085 (May 9, 2021)
Finland - 21,794 (March 19, 2021)
Norway - 29,204 (March 27, 2021)
US - 1,910,000 (November 2020) and the last time the US's 7 day average was lower than Sweden's highest was around March of 2020.
Is it possible that we are testing too much?!
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100%. Beyond the governments failures.. to which there are many in many jurisdictions... This pandemic showed me a lot of people's true colours. Within discussions about freedoms and economy etc. there seemed to be this weird inability for a lot of people to consider the human life element of this. Regarding your comment.. I heard a lot of that too. "only affects the elderly and the high risk." It's like "OK, so....... we just stop caring about them?" "We sacrifice them?" And for what? Money? Travel? So many opinions and comments that seemed completely devoid of humanity and dignity. Complete lack of empathy. And it always seemed stupid to me as well because no one would actually want to risk themselves or a loved one in the same case. It's like that D-Bag from the movie Titanic who when he learned half of the people on the ship would die he's like "meh, not the better half." Apparently there are a lot more of those types than I originally thought.HughFreakingDillon said:most of them turn it into a "I'm fine, protect the elderly and the compromised, let the rest of society move on". like locking up the elderly and the compromised indefinitely would be a great solution.
it really speaks to a bigger societal problem where a LOT of people consider their right to go a movie more important than someone else's right to be alive.
I often had to say to people.. even in my family... "Grandpa fought WWII for freedom, yes. But it wasn't for your freedom to go get a professional haircut, and if you think it was.... you really really really need to read a history book."Toronto 2000
Buffalo, Phoenix, Toronto 2003
Boston I&II 2004
Kitchener, Hamilton, London, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto 2005
Toronto I&II, Las Vegas 2006
Chicago Lollapalooza 2007
Toronto, Seattle I&II, Vancouver, Philly I,II,III,IV 2009
Cleveland, Buffalo 2010
Toronto I&II 2011
Buffalo 2013
Toronto I&II 2016
10C: 220xxx0 -
really? the testing too much nonsense again? stop looking at numbers, since they aren't comparable between nations that have wildly different populations sizes. look at test positivity rate.gvn2fly1421 said:So my question then would be what did the other two countries do? I also would still like to hear from the guy from Sweden on their response as well as their neighbors.
A quick search of Finland brings up this article from November 19, 2020. https://www.dw.com/en/coronavirus-finland-sweden-role-model/a-55664117Why is Finland coping so well with the coronavirus crisis?
1. Finland reacted swiftly
Back in Spring, as the number of infections skyrocketed around the world, the Finnish government reacted promptly and imposed a two-month long lockdown. Travel to and from Helsinki and the surrounding areas was banned. Schools and other institutions were closed, quickly followed by restaurants.
Now, if you google "Finland Covid" and look at the graph, at the time this probably looked like a good idea. Look at the spikes after this article was written and the 7 day average is trending toward the highest number since it began over a year ago. They are showing around 35% fully vaccinated. The deaths have been virtually non-existent.
When I google "Norway Covid" the graphs are similar. Around the same vaccination rate and deaths are non existent.
Sweden is actually higher vaccinated (around 40%) with way more cases than the other two, however their deaths have virtually disappeared as well.
Can anyone give me an explanation for this? One thing that caught my eye is the amount of testing we are doing here compared to those three. The highest 7 day averages for each of those countries looks like this, with the US in there as well.
Sweden - 51,085 (May 9, 2021)
Finland - 21,794 (March 19, 2021)
Norway - 29,204 (March 27, 2021)
US - 1,910,000 (November 2020) and the last time the US's 7 day average was lower than Sweden's highest was around March of 2020.
Is it possible that we are testing too much?!
By The Time They Figure Out What Went Wrong, We'll Be Sitting On A Beach, Earning Twenty Percent.0 -
The data has to be normalized for population. You can't evaluate it in raw numbers.0
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Yes. You are right.mrussel1 said:The data has to be normalized for population. You can't evaluate it in raw numbers.
But what got me into this discussion is that we were told 70% fully all restrictions removed, now it's 90% You don't think this causes vaccine hesitancy? And people are really doubtful restrictions get lifted then. our provincial government is convinced that they solely vaccinate our way out of this.Give Peas A Chance…0 -
Good point.mrussel1 said:The data has to be normalized for population. You can't evaluate it in raw numbers.0 -
Let's first define the "we" doing "too much" testing: It's generally people who feel ill, particularly with Covid symptoms.
So, no, we're not testing too much. Probably too little from what I've observed anecdotally in a mostly Covid-conscious state.
I SAW PEARL JAM0 -
More not great news.Preliminary lab results suggest that the lambda variant may be more infectious and at least somewhat resistant to neutralizing antibodies from the vaccines.https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/delta-infections-among-vaccinated-likely-contagious-lambda-variant-shows-vaccine-2021-08-02/
If/when we do face a variant that escapes protection offered by the current vaccines, I think there is a high likelihood that the mRNA vaccines can be tweaked to be more specifically targeted, but this means getting back into waiting for vaccine production and roll out.my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf0 -
I haven't seen those numbers. 70% is the common number used for herd immunity, but haven't heard 90%. The good news is I bet before Delta is done, we'll have 80+% immune either through the vax or recovery.Meltdown99 said:Yes. You are right.
But what got me into this discussion is that we were told 70% fully all restrictions removed, now it's 90% You don't think this causes vaccine hesitancy? And people are really doubtful restrictions get lifted then. our provincial government is convinced that they solely vaccinate our way out of this.0 -
I totally disagree with this statement. All of these mandates are coming out and you have to show proof of vaccination to enter or.... a negative test! If you get contact traced from school or work, you have to wait 14 days or show.... a negative test!dankind said:Let's first define the "we" doing "too much" testing: It's generally people who feel ill, particularly with Covid symptoms.
So, no, we're not testing too much. Probably too little from what I've observed anecdotally in a mostly Covid-conscious state.
Why are we doing these things if there are no signs or symptoms? Since I have been down this road, I know the responses are going to come back to asymptomatic spread, which has since been proven to not be a thing.
Related, and this is something I have not looked into, but someone is getting really, really rich on testing in the US. Anyone know who?0 -
Also since that original number is the prevalence of a variant with 1,000 the viral load of the prior ones, and a proven ability to spread from vaccinated to either vaccinated or unvaccinated individuals (albeit at a greatly reduced proportion of the original exposures). When facts change, plans should too.Meltdown99 said:Yes. You are right.
But what got me into this discussion is that we were told 70% fully all restrictions removed, now it's 90% You don't think this causes vaccine hesitancy? And people are really doubtful restrictions get lifted then. our provincial government is convinced that they solely vaccinate our way out of this.
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
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That couldn’t be more wrong. Leave the US?, get a test…come back to the US…get a test….someone at work positive…get a test….you were within 6 feet of someone….get a test…..your kids school had a positive result….get them a test….the list goes on and on and on and on and on…..dankind said:Let's first define the "we" doing "too much" testing: It's generally people who feel ill, particularly with Covid symptoms.
So, no, we're not testing too much. Probably too little from what I've observed anecdotally in a mostly Covid-conscious state.0 -
Someone got really rich off the statin I take. Therefore I'm not taking it anymore. That'll show 'em.gvn2fly1421 said:I totally disagree with this statement. All of these mandates are coming out and you have to show proof of vaccination to enter or.... a negative test! If you get contact traced from school or work, you have to wait 14 days or show.... a negative test!
Why are we doing these things if there are no signs or symptoms? Since I have been down this road, I know the responses are going to come back to asymptomatic spread, which has since been proven to not be a thing.
Related, and this is something I have not looked into, but someone is getting really, really rich on testing in the US. Anyone know who?0 -
I said "generally."mrussel1 said:Someone got really rich off the statin I take. Therefore I'm not taking it anymore. That'll show 'em.
But reactionaries gonna reactionary (*and of course, spread a little misinformation while they're at it).
Post edited by dankind onI SAW PEARL JAM0 -
show me your data that suggests asymptomatic spread is not a thing.gvn2fly1421 said:I totally disagree with this statement. All of these mandates are coming out and you have to show proof of vaccination to enter or.... a negative test! If you get contact traced from school or work, you have to wait 14 days or show.... a negative test!
Why are we doing these things if there are no signs or symptoms? Since I have been down this road, I know the responses are going to come back to asymptomatic spread, which has since been proven to not be a thing.
Related, and this is something I have not looked into, but someone is getting really, really rich on testing in the US. Anyone know who?
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanepe/article/PIIS2666-7762(21)00059-4/fulltext
https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210110/59-percent-of-covid-cases-stem-from-asymptomatic-spread
https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4851
By The Time They Figure Out What Went Wrong, We'll Be Sitting On A Beach, Earning Twenty Percent.0
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