George Floyd Protests

static111 said:

mace1229 said:

static111 said:

mickeyrat said:

more the story.

system failures left and right..

https://news.yahoo.com/makhia-bryants-journey-foster-care-150429468.html

COLUMBUS, Ohio — The voice on the 911 call is a teenage girl’s, and it is quavering, as if she has been crying. “I want to leave this foster home,” she tells t...

I hope everyone that jumped all over themselves to justify the cop killing a kid reads this.  Turns out girl in pink and several other adults were all going after two kids that already had a tough life. Society fails family, society places girl in system, system fails girl, system kills girl, system blames girl...what a shithole country.

What does this have to do with the shooting? Is an officer supposed to do a background check when seeing someone lunge with a knife? I don’t see how this changes how the cop responded, what happened in the months prior doesn’t change what happens in that moment.
It might change how we view foster care and how we can better support those kids. Might also impact the others involved in the fight and what role they played leading up to her death. But how does that change the justification when a cop has a split second to decide how to respond to a person lunging with a knife? Unfortunately he only has a couple tenths of a second to decide what to do and not weeks to read up on the background of everyone at the scene.
It seems like you’re criticizing the cop and everyone who isn’t against him for not considering information that didn’t come out until weeks later, when the other girl would have been dead in seconds.

That information was readily available as soon as this event occurred.  The only difference I have seen is that the girls sister was the one who made the 911 call and not Makhia herself. My point is we should hold cops to a higher standard and the go to move should not be rolling out of your car guns blazing. I’m not even saying no deaths by cops
would be justified.  It’s just interesting that some that should maybe get a use of force like those that commit mass shootings or white people that run down cops with their cars seem to be able to be disarmed and taken into custody after a “hard” day, but a Black child defending herself from a group of adults has no chance and the first and most justified option seems to be multiple gunshots. As for if the “woman in pink” would or would not have been killed if the cop had not shot a child, we will never know. What we do know is that a group o do 20 year olds has no business threatening and intimidating children and had a bully taken a cut or something when threatening and intimidating a child, I would say that would have been much more justified than a police officer killing a child that was trying to defend herself and younger sister from several adults.

i hope this doesn’t come off as too morally superior to anyone.

It doesn’t come off that way.
But still the point remains, we can’t expect cops to know the background when they have a split second to potentially save a life. In that moment it doesn’t matter who called, their age, their GPA (as was often reported by the media) or if they are in foster care. All that information is irrelevant when justifying the shooting or not.
It does show the systems needs improvement and possibly holding the aggressors accountable for her death, if their actions lead to her getting the knife that got her killed.

static111 said:

mace1229 said:

static111 said:

mace1229 said:

static111 said:

mickeyrat said:

more the story.

system failures left and right..

https://news.yahoo.com/makhia-bryants-journey-foster-care-150429468.html

COLUMBUS, Ohio — The voice on the 911 call is a teenage girl’s, and it is quavering, as if she has been crying. “I want to leave this foster home,” she tells t...

I hope everyone that jumped all over themselves to justify the cop killing a kid reads this.  Turns out girl in pink and several other adults were all going after two kids that already had a tough life. Society fails family, society places girl in system, system fails girl, system kills girl, system blames girl...what a shithole country.

What does this have to do with the shooting? Is an officer supposed to do a background check when seeing someone lunge with a knife? I don’t see how this changes how the cop responded, what happened in the months prior doesn’t change what happens in that moment.
It might change how we view foster care and how we can better support those kids. Might also impact the others involved in the fight and what role they played leading up to her death. But how does that change the justification when a cop has a split second to decide how to respond to a person lunging with a knife? Unfortunately he only has a couple tenths of a second to decide what to do and not weeks to read up on the background of everyone at the scene.
It seems like you’re criticizing the cop and everyone who isn’t against him for not considering information that didn’t come out until weeks later, when the other girl would have been dead in seconds.

That information was readily available as soon as this event occurred.  The only difference I have seen is that the girls sister was the one who made the 911 call and not Makhia herself. My point is we should hold cops to a higher standard and the go to move should not be rolling out of your car guns blazing. I’m not even saying no deaths by cops
would be justified.  It’s just interesting that some that should maybe get a use of force like those that commit mass shootings or white people that run down cops with their cars seem to be able to be disarmed and taken into custody after a “hard” day, but a Black child defending herself from a group of adults has no chance and the first and most justified option seems to be multiple gunshots. As for if the “woman in pink” would or would not have been killed if the cop had not shot a child, we will never know. What we do know is that a group o do 20 year olds has no business threatening and intimidating children and had a bully taken a cut or something when threatening and intimidating a child, I would say that would have been much more justified than a police officer killing a child that was trying to defend herself and younger sister from several adults.

i hope this doesn’t come off as too morally superior to anyone.

It doesn’t come off that way.
But still the point remains, we can’t expect cops to know the background when they have a split second to potentially save a life. In that moment it doesn’t matter who called, their age, their GPA (as was often reported by the media) or if they are in foster care. All that information is irrelevant when justifying the shooting or not.
It does show the systems needs improvement and possibly holding the aggressors accountable for her death, if their actions lead to her getting the knife that got her killed.

I think it is pretty clear that the adults attacking children should absolutely be held accountable for this.  The officer should pay some consequences as well.

When that starts to change I would expect every cop to show up and just watch the carnage unfold then react after everyone is done going after each other.

JeBurkhardt said:

static111 said:

mace1229 said:

static111 said:

mace1229 said:

static111 said:

mickeyrat said:

more the story.

system failures left and right..

https://news.yahoo.com/makhia-bryants-journey-foster-care-150429468.html

COLUMBUS, Ohio — The voice on the 911 call is a teenage girl’s, and it is quavering, as if she has been crying. “I want to leave this foster home,” she tells t...

I hope everyone that jumped all over themselves to justify the cop killing a kid reads this.  Turns out girl in pink and several other adults were all going after two kids that already had a tough life. Society fails family, society places girl in system, system fails girl, system kills girl, system blames girl...what a shithole country.

What does this have to do with the shooting? Is an officer supposed to do a background check when seeing someone lunge with a knife? I don’t see how this changes how the cop responded, what happened in the months prior doesn’t change what happens in that moment.
It might change how we view foster care and how we can better support those kids. Might also impact the others involved in the fight and what role they played leading up to her death. But how does that change the justification when a cop has a split second to decide how to respond to a person lunging with a knife? Unfortunately he only has a couple tenths of a second to decide what to do and not weeks to read up on the background of everyone at the scene.
It seems like you’re criticizing the cop and everyone who isn’t against him for not considering information that didn’t come out until weeks later, when the other girl would have been dead in seconds.

That information was readily available as soon as this event occurred.  The only difference I have seen is that the girls sister was the one who made the 911 call and not Makhia herself. My point is we should hold cops to a higher standard and the go to move should not be rolling out of your car guns blazing. I’m not even saying no deaths by cops
would be justified.  It’s just interesting that some that should maybe get a use of force like those that commit mass shootings or white people that run down cops with their cars seem to be able to be disarmed and taken into custody after a “hard” day, but a Black child defending herself from a group of adults has no chance and the first and most justified option seems to be multiple gunshots. As for if the “woman in pink” would or would not have been killed if the cop had not shot a child, we will never know. What we do know is that a group o do 20 year olds has no business threatening and intimidating children and had a bully taken a cut or something when threatening and intimidating a child, I would say that would have been much more justified than a police officer killing a child that was trying to defend herself and younger sister from several adults.

i hope this doesn’t come off as too morally superior to anyone.

It doesn’t come off that way.
But still the point remains, we can’t expect cops to know the background when they have a split second to potentially save a life. In that moment it doesn’t matter who called, their age, their GPA (as was often reported by the media) or if they are in foster care. All that information is irrelevant when justifying the shooting or not.
It does show the systems needs improvement and possibly holding the aggressors accountable for her death, if their actions lead to her getting the knife that got her killed.

I think it is pretty clear that the adults attacking children should absolutely be held accountable for this.  The officer should pay some consequences as well.

I work at a correctional facility, and even though I am not an officer, we learn about the legal justifications for the use of force in a situation. One justification for use is the imminent threat to a person's life. Makhia was in the act of stabbing another person. The action of the officer, while tragic, was justified. The officer was protecting the life of the person who was about to be stabbed. The background situation or who was at fault initially doesn't factor into it. The officer arrived, saw an imminent threat ( Makhia in the action of stabbing someone) and reacted accordingly.     

bingo. 

mace1229 said:

tempo_n_groove said:

static111 said:

mace1229 said:

static111 said:

mace1229 said:

static111 said:

mickeyrat said:

more the story.

system failures left and right..

https://news.yahoo.com/makhia-bryants-journey-foster-care-150429468.html

COLUMBUS, Ohio — The voice on the 911 call is a teenage girl’s, and it is quavering, as if she has been crying. “I want to leave this foster home,” she tells t...

I hope everyone that jumped all over themselves to justify the cop killing a kid reads this.  Turns out girl in pink and several other adults were all going after two kids that already had a tough life. Society fails family, society places girl in system, system fails girl, system kills girl, system blames girl...what a shithole country.

What does this have to do with the shooting? Is an officer supposed to do a background check when seeing someone lunge with a knife? I don’t see how this changes how the cop responded, what happened in the months prior doesn’t change what happens in that moment.
It might change how we view foster care and how we can better support those kids. Might also impact the others involved in the fight and what role they played leading up to her death. But how does that change the justification when a cop has a split second to decide how to respond to a person lunging with a knife? Unfortunately he only has a couple tenths of a second to decide what to do and not weeks to read up on the background of everyone at the scene.
It seems like you’re criticizing the cop and everyone who isn’t against him for not considering information that didn’t come out until weeks later, when the other girl would have been dead in seconds.

That information was readily available as soon as this event occurred.  The only difference I have seen is that the girls sister was the one who made the 911 call and not Makhia herself. My point is we should hold cops to a higher standard and the go to move should not be rolling out of your car guns blazing. I’m not even saying no deaths by cops
would be justified.  It’s just interesting that some that should maybe get a use of force like those that commit mass shootings or white people that run down cops with their cars seem to be able to be disarmed and taken into custody after a “hard” day, but a Black child defending herself from a group of adults has no chance and the first and most justified option seems to be multiple gunshots. As for if the “woman in pink” would or would not have been killed if the cop had not shot a child, we will never know. What we do know is that a group o do 20 year olds has no business threatening and intimidating children and had a bully taken a cut or something when threatening and intimidating a child, I would say that would have been much more justified than a police officer killing a child that was trying to defend herself and younger sister from several adults.

i hope this doesn’t come off as too morally superior to anyone.

It doesn’t come off that way.
But still the point remains, we can’t expect cops to know the background when they have a split second to potentially save a life. In that moment it doesn’t matter who called, their age, their GPA (as was often reported by the media) or if they are in foster care. All that information is irrelevant when justifying the shooting or not.
It does show the systems needs improvement and possibly holding the aggressors accountable for her death, if their actions lead to her getting the knife that got her killed.

I think it is pretty clear that the adults attacking children should absolutely be held accountable for this.  The officer should pay some consequences as well.

When that starts to change I would expect every cop to show up and just watch the carnage unfold then react after everyone is done going after each other.

But then that cop will probably get sued and receive death threats for just letting someone get stabbed. Its a lose-lose nowadays.  

Exactly.

You can't have it both ways.

mickeyrat said:

static111 said:

mickeyrat said:

more the story.

system failures left and right..

https://news.yahoo.com/makhia-bryants-journey-foster-care-150429468.html

COLUMBUS, Ohio — The voice on the 911 call is a teenage girl’s, and it is quavering, as if she has been crying. “I want to leave this foster home,” she tells t...

I hope everyone that jumped all over themselves to justify the cop killing a kid reads this.  Turns out girl in pink and several other adults were all going after two kids that already had a tough life. Society fails family, society places girl in system, system fails girl, system kills girl, system blames girl...what a shithole country.

turns out he says . cop didn't have that time sort out out who is who, who made the call.

dispatched on a attempted stabbing. pulls on scene. sees an attempted stabbing in progress, knife raised.

so tell me expert cop trainer, what were his actions supposed to be in this specific situation? in that second or 2 from exiting his cruiser and maybe taking 3 or so steps?

Isn’t this what tasers are for, or do those only get used as an excuse for when a cop gets confused.  Also I don’t understand the reason for multiple shots if the only option was a gun, one shot wouldn’t do? The girl could still be alive in this situation.  This is definitely a situation that shows me it would be justified to cut a police budget and invest that money in better family services and access to needy families.  

static111 said:

mickeyrat said:

static111 said:

mickeyrat said:

more the story.

system failures left and right..

https://news.yahoo.com/makhia-bryants-journey-foster-care-150429468.html

COLUMBUS, Ohio — The voice on the 911 call is a teenage girl’s, and it is quavering, as if she has been crying. “I want to leave this foster home,” she tells t...

I hope everyone that jumped all over themselves to justify the cop killing a kid reads this.  Turns out girl in pink and several other adults were all going after two kids that already had a tough life. Society fails family, society places girl in system, system fails girl, system kills girl, system blames girl...what a shithole country.

turns out he says . cop didn't have that time sort out out who is who, who made the call.

dispatched on a attempted stabbing. pulls on scene. sees an attempted stabbing in progress, knife raised.

so tell me expert cop trainer, what were his actions supposed to be in this specific situation? in that second or 2 from exiting his cruiser and maybe taking 3 or so steps?

Isn’t this what tasers are for, or do those only get used as an excuse for when a cop gets confused.  Also I don’t understand the reason for multiple shots if the only option was a gun, one shot wouldn’t do? The girl could still be alive in this situation.  This is definitely a situation that shows me it would be justified to cut a police budget and invest that money in better family services and access to needy families.  

Maybe the fault isn’t with this individual officer, it is likely that our flawed policing system is to blame here.  How many other countries does this stuff happen in.

at the end of the day I don’t want to see people normalize cops killing kids.

I shared an article a few weeks ago when this question was being asked. Tasers are not as effective as they advertise. They are far less likely to stop an individual who is about to kill someone. 
A cop arrives on scene. He sees someone with a deadly weapon, who appears to be attempting to use it on someone else. At that moment the back history of the individuals doesn't matter, it would be his duty to protect the victim. And regardless of the circumstances, the girl being lunged at with a knife, at that moment, is the victim. 

I understand the argument and I think it does come down to re-training cops, but the current response to a life threatening incident is to stop the threat. You aren't trained to count your shots or shoot just once; it's stop the threat. I don't know if this is still the case, but you are taught to shoot until there is not a threat and then stop and re-asses while you maintain a ready position. You also don't aim to injure because that isn't usually effective if your trying to stop a threat. Could these be potential changes in how police respond, yeah, of course, but then people would have to be willing to accept the alternate reality of what that means as well; more possible victims from failed attempts not to use lethal force to stop the threat, but maybe less police shootings(?).

I don't claim to have the answer, but I do think certain situations could be handled differently. The one garnering all of the discussion here is a hard one for me to see an alternative option. Yes, a taser could be used, but the time and effort it takes to determine if that worked would most likely result in a severe injury, if not death. Under normal circumstances, one cop would have less than lethal and the other would have lethal in the event the less than lethal is not effective. You would usually see that in a situation involving a suspect with a knife who is far enough away and not actively trying to stab anyone. You won't ever see a cop by themself pull a taser to meet the threat of a person with a deadly weapon. They have to survive the encounter or protect the person being threatened, but multiple officers have more flexibility in how they de-escalate. Training teaches you to exceed the level of threat being presented by one step.

I think this chart is a good example of how most police are trained to handle the use of force continuum.

tempo_n_groove said:

static111 said:

mickeyrat said:

static111 said:

mickeyrat said:

more the story.

system failures left and right..

https://news.yahoo.com/makhia-bryants-journey-foster-care-150429468.html

COLUMBUS, Ohio — The voice on the 911 call is a teenage girl’s, and it is quavering, as if she has been crying. “I want to leave this foster home,” she tells t...

I hope everyone that jumped all over themselves to justify the cop killing a kid reads this.  Turns out girl in pink and several other adults were all going after two kids that already had a tough life. Society fails family, society places girl in system, system fails girl, system kills girl, system blames girl...what a shithole country.

turns out he says . cop didn't have that time sort out out who is who, who made the call.

dispatched on a attempted stabbing. pulls on scene. sees an attempted stabbing in progress, knife raised.

so tell me expert cop trainer, what were his actions supposed to be in this specific situation? in that second or 2 from exiting his cruiser and maybe taking 3 or so steps?

Isn’t this what tasers are for, or do those only get used as an excuse for when a cop gets confused.  Also I don’t understand the reason for multiple shots if the only option was a gun, one shot wouldn’t do? The girl could still be alive in this situation.  This is definitely a situation that shows me it would be justified to cut a police budget and invest that money in better family services and access to needy families.  

Maybe the fault isn’t with this individual officer, it is likely that our flawed policing system is to blame here.  How many other countries does this stuff happen in.

at the end of the day I don’t want to see people normalize cops killing kids.

Highlighted the above. You seem to be missing a huge point.  Cop had no idea how old that person was w the knife upon arriving to the scene.

No one in "normalizing" killing kids.  That is what you choose to see and no matter what anyone says you still can't see what everyone else is saying.

You have never had gun training and I can understand that.  When you train you are taught to shoot multipole times as a bullet has certain "stopping power" and depending on what you are using one shot may not do it or your shot might be slightly off.

Before I grew a brain (living in rural Michigan) I was an NRA member and hunter, during this time I took several gun safety courses.  I guess the problem is that none of those courses were about how to kill a person, so I guess though I did receive gun training I didn’t get the right kind to empathize with killing of humans.

tbergs said:

static111 said:

tempo_n_groove said:

static111 said:

mickeyrat said:

static111 said:

mickeyrat said:

more the story.

system failures left and right..

https://news.yahoo.com/makhia-bryants-journey-foster-care-150429468.html

COLUMBUS, Ohio — The voice on the 911 call is a teenage girl’s, and it is quavering, as if she has been crying. “I want to leave this foster home,” she tells t...

I hope everyone that jumped all over themselves to justify the cop killing a kid reads this.  Turns out girl in pink and several other adults were all going after two kids that already had a tough life. Society fails family, society places girl in system, system fails girl, system kills girl, system blames girl...what a shithole country.

turns out he says . cop didn't have that time sort out out who is who, who made the call.

dispatched on a attempted stabbing. pulls on scene. sees an attempted stabbing in progress, knife raised.

so tell me expert cop trainer, what were his actions supposed to be in this specific situation? in that second or 2 from exiting his cruiser and maybe taking 3 or so steps?

Isn’t this what tasers are for, or do those only get used as an excuse for when a cop gets confused.  Also I don’t understand the reason for multiple shots if the only option was a gun, one shot wouldn’t do? The girl could still be alive in this situation.  This is definitely a situation that shows me it would be justified to cut a police budget and invest that money in better family services and access to needy families.  

Maybe the fault isn’t with this individual officer, it is likely that our flawed policing system is to blame here.  How many other countries does this stuff happen in.

at the end of the day I don’t want to see people normalize cops killing kids.

Highlighted the above. You seem to be missing a huge point.  Cop had no idea how old that person was w the knife upon arriving to the scene.

No one in "normalizing" killing kids.  That is what you choose to see and no matter what anyone says you still can't see what everyone else is saying.

You have never had gun training and I can understand that.  When you train you are taught to shoot multipole times as a bullet has certain "stopping power" and depending on what you are using one shot may not do it or your shot might be slightly off.

Before I grew a brain (living in rural Michigan) I was an NRA member and hunter, during this time I took several gun safety courses.  I guess the problem is that none of those courses were about how to kill a person, so I guess though I did receive gun training I didn’t get the right kind to empathize with killing of humans.

As a hunter though, you were trained to shoot prey in the most likely place to inflict a fatal wound and that's was so it wouldn't suffer or escape. Very rarely do humans kill animals based on threat, but when they do it's more often than not a self-created threat because they did not keep their distance or caused the encounter to occur. When that happens, they then shoot to kill because injury doesn't guarantee survival by the potential victim. The same rules apply when a human encounters a human in the act of a direct deadly threat. Now, could there there be an alternative option like the tranquilizers used on big game to track and study them, maybe, but it would require an immediate sedation response upon contact to prevent further violence.

That actually seems like a good idea, though admittedly I know nothing about the speed at which tranquilizers become effective.  

mace1229 said:

static111 said:

tbergs said:

static111 said:

tempo_n_groove said:

static111 said:

mickeyrat said:

static111 said:

mickeyrat said:

more the story.

system failures left and right..

https://news.yahoo.com/makhia-bryants-journey-foster-care-150429468.html

COLUMBUS, Ohio — The voice on the 911 call is a teenage girl’s, and it is quavering, as if she has been crying. “I want to leave this foster home,” she tells t...

I hope everyone that jumped all over themselves to justify the cop killing a kid reads this.  Turns out girl in pink and several other adults were all going after two kids that already had a tough life. Society fails family, society places girl in system, system fails girl, system kills girl, system blames girl...what a shithole country.

turns out he says . cop didn't have that time sort out out who is who, who made the call.

dispatched on a attempted stabbing. pulls on scene. sees an attempted stabbing in progress, knife raised.

so tell me expert cop trainer, what were his actions supposed to be in this specific situation? in that second or 2 from exiting his cruiser and maybe taking 3 or so steps?

Isn’t this what tasers are for, or do those only get used as an excuse for when a cop gets confused.  Also I don’t understand the reason for multiple shots if the only option was a gun, one shot wouldn’t do? The girl could still be alive in this situation.  This is definitely a situation that shows me it would be justified to cut a police budget and invest that money in better family services and access to needy families.  

Maybe the fault isn’t with this individual officer, it is likely that our flawed policing system is to blame here.  How many other countries does this stuff happen in.

at the end of the day I don’t want to see people normalize cops killing kids.

Highlighted the above. You seem to be missing a huge point.  Cop had no idea how old that person was w the knife upon arriving to the scene.

No one in "normalizing" killing kids.  That is what you choose to see and no matter what anyone says you still can't see what everyone else is saying.

You have never had gun training and I can understand that.  When you train you are taught to shoot multipole times as a bullet has certain "stopping power" and depending on what you are using one shot may not do it or your shot might be slightly off.

Before I grew a brain (living in rural Michigan) I was an NRA member and hunter, during this time I took several gun safety courses.  I guess the problem is that none of those courses were about how to kill a person, so I guess though I did receive gun training I didn’t get the right kind to empathize with killing of humans.

As a hunter though, you were trained to shoot prey in the most likely place to inflict a fatal wound and that's was so it wouldn't suffer or escape. Very rarely do humans kill animals based on threat, but when they do it's more often than not a self-created threat because they did not keep their distance or caused the encounter to occur. When that happens, they then shoot to kill because injury doesn't guarantee survival by the potential victim. The same rules apply when a human encounters a human in the act of a direct deadly threat. Now, could there there be an alternative option like the tranquilizers used on big game to track and study them, maybe, but it would require an immediate sedation response upon contact to prevent further violence.

That actually seems like a good idea, though admittedly I know nothing about the speed at which tranquilizers become effective.  

That sounds like a terrible idea. They aren't instant, so it won't stop an immediate threat of someone lunging with a knife or pulling a gun. And you have to estimate weight. You can't expect a cop to estimate weight in a lethal situation, enter the correct dose, and fire a tranquilizer hoping they hit with their one shot using a correct dose and that the subject gives up during the time it takes to take effect. 
Elijah McCain was killed because the paramedics overestimated his weight when trying to subdue him and he died several days later.

*Well I guess deadly force is the only possible option at all times then*