The Democratic Presidential Debates
Comments
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But Brian, I seem to recall you being against a minimum wage of $15 per hour because your business couldn't support it. These workers are above that number.brianlux said:ecdanc said:
They don't need to do that- they get plenty fucked already by low wages and poor working conditions. And they and most of us pay all the taxes while Bezos pays none and buys his islands!0 -
mrussel1 said:
But Brian, I seem to recall you being against a minimum wage of $15 per hour because your business couldn't support it. These workers are above that number.brianlux said:ecdanc said:
They don't need to do that- they get plenty fucked already by low wages and poor working conditions. And they and most of us pay all the taxes while Bezos pays none and buys his islands!I'm like a Republican that way- I'm only against something except for when I'm not. LOL Let me explain:I am the sole employee of my small part-time book and vinyl business which nets me less than minimum wage but I enjoy it and, because I have no pension or any other form of retirement income except social security, it helps. So what I'm saying here will relate to the bookstore business my wife and her business partner own and for which I help out part-time at a little over minimum wage:I am in favor of a living wage for workers who rely on their work related income. In other words- a working person who relies on their paycheck to support themselves and/or a family, that person should earn at least a minimum wage in order to do so. But many small businesses- my wife's is a good example- rely on part-time help to stay afloat. The bookstore has had a number of employees who work their either to supplement their income post retirement (people who only get social security and need a little extra to get by) or students who want a little extra income before they go off into the world of full-time work. I think there should be an exception to minimum wage for businesses that hire part-time help for those folks. Some small businesses- used bookstores are an excellent example- run on a thin margin. Some years it gets really close to the wire trying to stay afloat. If the minimum wage right now were $15 for all employees- we would have to let someone go- not so that we could live the Bezos life- but so that we could keep the business going. And that store is a big asset to our community. I cannot tell you how many times I've head customers say, "I hope you never close, that would be terrible." I'm sure there are other small businesses like that. I can think of several used bookstores and record stores that have gone out of business due to high cost of running a small business that I sorely miss. To name a few:Chimeras Book, Palo AltoWessex Used Books, Menlo ParkSunset Books, San FranciscoThe Beat (record and CD store in Sacramento)Cody's Books, BerkeleyThe Book Worm, FolsomKepler's Books (actually still in business but only due to a very large donation)
"It's a sad and beautiful world"-Roberto Benigni0 -
How does the media fall for his bullshit every time?
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While I understand your situation, and you may be altruistic in nature, the reality is that such an economic scale would create a situation where employers are incentivized to hire part time workers only. And why wouldn't they? If I could hire 1.5 people at $10 per hour vs 1 at $15, my employee expense is 30% less. It it wouldn't be Amazon that does this, it would be small and medium businesses where people expenses eats up a higher % of revenue. This was the danger of Obamacare and it absolutely has played out. In fact, the accounting firm that my wife works for has that exact policy. 30 hours max. Now it's great for us because we don't want her to work more than 30, but she couldn't work there if she wanted more.brianlux said:mrussel1 said:
But Brian, I seem to recall you being against a minimum wage of $15 per hour because your business couldn't support it. These workers are above that number.brianlux said:ecdanc said:
They don't need to do that- they get plenty fucked already by low wages and poor working conditions. And they and most of us pay all the taxes while Bezos pays none and buys his islands!I'm like a Republican that way- I'm only against something except for when I'm not. LOL Let me explain:I am the sole employee of my small part-time book and vinyl business which nets me less than minimum wage but I enjoy it and, because I have no pension or any other form of retirement income except social security, it helps. So what I'm saying here will relate to the bookstore business my wife and her business partner own and for which I help out part-time at a little over minimum wage:I am in favor of a living wage for workers who rely on their work related income. In other words- a working person who relies on their paycheck to support themselves and/or a family, that person should earn at least a minimum wage in order to do so. But many small businesses- my wife's is a good example- rely on part-time help to stay afloat. The bookstore has had a number of employees who work their either to supplement their income post retirement (people who only get social security and need a little extra to get by) or students who want a little extra income before they go off into the world of full-time work. I think there should be an exception to minimum wage for businesses that hire part-time help for those folks. Some small businesses- used bookstores are an excellent example- run on a thin margin. Some years it gets really close to the wire trying to stay afloat. If the minimum wage right now were $15 for all employees- we would have to let someone go- not so that we could live the Bezos life- but so that we could keep the business going. And that store is a big asset to our community. I cannot tell you how many times I've head customers say, "I hope you never close, that would be terrible." I'm sure there are other small businesses like that. I can think of several used bookstores and record stores that have gone out of business due to high cost of running a small business that I sorely miss. To name a few:Chimeras Book, Palo AltoWessex Used Books, Menlo ParkSunset Books, San FranciscoThe Beat (record and CD store in Sacramento)Cody's Books, BerkeleyThe Book Worm, FolsomKepler's Books (actually still in business but only due to a very large donation)0 -
mrussel1 said:
While I understand your situation, and you may be altruistic in nature, the reality is that such an economic scale would create a situation where employers are incentivized to hire part time workers only. And why wouldn't they? If I could hire 1.5 people at $10 per hour vs 1 at $15, my employee expense is 30% less. It it wouldn't be Amazon that does this, it would be small and medium businesses where people expenses eats up a higher % of revenue. This was the danger of Obamacare and it absolutely has played out. In fact, the accounting firm that my wife works for has that exact policy. 30 hours max. Now it's great for us because we don't want her to work more than 30, but she couldn't work there if she wanted more.brianlux said:mrussel1 said:
But Brian, I seem to recall you being against a minimum wage of $15 per hour because your business couldn't support it. These workers are above that number.brianlux said:ecdanc said:
They don't need to do that- they get plenty fucked already by low wages and poor working conditions. And they and most of us pay all the taxes while Bezos pays none and buys his islands!I'm like a Republican that way- I'm only against something except for when I'm not. LOL Let me explain:I am the sole employee of my small part-time book and vinyl business which nets me less than minimum wage but I enjoy it and, because I have no pension or any other form of retirement income except social security, it helps. So what I'm saying here will relate to the bookstore business my wife and her business partner own and for which I help out part-time at a little over minimum wage:I am in favor of a living wage for workers who rely on their work related income. In other words- a working person who relies on their paycheck to support themselves and/or a family, that person should earn at least a minimum wage in order to do so. But many small businesses- my wife's is a good example- rely on part-time help to stay afloat. The bookstore has had a number of employees who work their either to supplement their income post retirement (people who only get social security and need a little extra to get by) or students who want a little extra income before they go off into the world of full-time work. I think there should be an exception to minimum wage for businesses that hire part-time help for those folks. Some small businesses- used bookstores are an excellent example- run on a thin margin. Some years it gets really close to the wire trying to stay afloat. If the minimum wage right now were $15 for all employees- we would have to let someone go- not so that we could live the Bezos life- but so that we could keep the business going. And that store is a big asset to our community. I cannot tell you how many times I've head customers say, "I hope you never close, that would be terrible." I'm sure there are other small businesses like that. I can think of several used bookstores and record stores that have gone out of business due to high cost of running a small business that I sorely miss. To name a few:Chimeras Book, Palo AltoWessex Used Books, Menlo ParkSunset Books, San FranciscoThe Beat (record and CD store in Sacramento)Cody's Books, BerkeleyThe Book Worm, FolsomKepler's Books (actually still in business but only due to a very large donation)
You make some good points and yes, there would have to be some way of preventing abuse of my proposed system. I'm honestly not sure how that would work. Maybe I'm looking at it backwards. Maybe there needs to be some way to protect small businesses from being run out of business by people like Bezos. I say this because I know from experience that small businesses add a lot of social and cultural value to small towns (e.g. The Bookery/ Placerville) and neighborhood in cities (e.g. Dog Eared Books in the Mission District of San Francisco). When those small businesses are unable to stay afloat, the community or neighborhood loses some of its quality as a place to live.
"It's a sad and beautiful world"-Roberto Benigni0 -
Shit is getting tense
Edit: Looks like Kerry deleted this tweet I tried to link to.
Post edited by pjl44 on0 -
I agree with protecting or otherwise supporting small business owners. I don't have the solution, although I'm against breaking up Amazon. I think that's bad for consumers, to be honest. They also aren't a monopoly by any current law, so there's no basis for it either. That being said, finding a way so consumers are incentivized to buy local would be great, and I'm be very supportive of programs that do that.brianlux said:mrussel1 said:
While I understand your situation, and you may be altruistic in nature, the reality is that such an economic scale would create a situation where employers are incentivized to hire part time workers only. And why wouldn't they? If I could hire 1.5 people at $10 per hour vs 1 at $15, my employee expense is 30% less. It it wouldn't be Amazon that does this, it would be small and medium businesses where people expenses eats up a higher % of revenue. This was the danger of Obamacare and it absolutely has played out. In fact, the accounting firm that my wife works for has that exact policy. 30 hours max. Now it's great for us because we don't want her to work more than 30, but she couldn't work there if she wanted more.brianlux said:mrussel1 said:
But Brian, I seem to recall you being against a minimum wage of $15 per hour because your business couldn't support it. These workers are above that number.brianlux said:ecdanc said:
They don't need to do that- they get plenty fucked already by low wages and poor working conditions. And they and most of us pay all the taxes while Bezos pays none and buys his islands!I'm like a Republican that way- I'm only against something except for when I'm not. LOL Let me explain:I am the sole employee of my small part-time book and vinyl business which nets me less than minimum wage but I enjoy it and, because I have no pension or any other form of retirement income except social security, it helps. So what I'm saying here will relate to the bookstore business my wife and her business partner own and for which I help out part-time at a little over minimum wage:I am in favor of a living wage for workers who rely on their work related income. In other words- a working person who relies on their paycheck to support themselves and/or a family, that person should earn at least a minimum wage in order to do so. But many small businesses- my wife's is a good example- rely on part-time help to stay afloat. The bookstore has had a number of employees who work their either to supplement their income post retirement (people who only get social security and need a little extra to get by) or students who want a little extra income before they go off into the world of full-time work. I think there should be an exception to minimum wage for businesses that hire part-time help for those folks. Some small businesses- used bookstores are an excellent example- run on a thin margin. Some years it gets really close to the wire trying to stay afloat. If the minimum wage right now were $15 for all employees- we would have to let someone go- not so that we could live the Bezos life- but so that we could keep the business going. And that store is a big asset to our community. I cannot tell you how many times I've head customers say, "I hope you never close, that would be terrible." I'm sure there are other small businesses like that. I can think of several used bookstores and record stores that have gone out of business due to high cost of running a small business that I sorely miss. To name a few:Chimeras Book, Palo AltoWessex Used Books, Menlo ParkSunset Books, San FranciscoThe Beat (record and CD store in Sacramento)Cody's Books, BerkeleyThe Book Worm, FolsomKepler's Books (actually still in business but only due to a very large donation)
You make some good points and yes, there would have to be some way of preventing abuse of my proposed system. I'm honestly not sure how that would work. Maybe I'm looking at it backwards. Maybe there needs to be some way to protect small businesses from being run out of business by people like Bezos. I say this because I know from experience that small businesses add a lot of social and cultural value to small towns (e.g. The Bookery/ Placerville) and neighborhood in cities (e.g. Dog Eared Books in the Mission District of San Francisco). When those small businesses are unable to stay afloat, the community or neighborhood loses some of its quality as a place to live.0 -
Biden is going to have to wait for a lifetime. To spend his days in the sunshine.pjl44 said:Shit is getting tense
Edit: Looks like Kerry deleted this tweet I tried to link to."Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"0 -
"Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"0
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"Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"0
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Right. Mahar said that, I forgot. I saw an ad of his earlier about the environment and thought about Mahers comment, but he did mention guns.pjl44 said:
I thought his SB ad is supposed to be about gun controlmrussel1 said:
He has money to burn so no... but I think a health care ad would be better. Did you hear that was the target of his SB ad?Lerxst1992 said:mrussel1 said:
So white collar upwardly mobile jobs are labor. Good luck convincing them on your revolution. I won't plan on liquidating my assets into cash to hide anytime soon. So we'll leave it there and let the thread get back to reality based discussions, like the Dem candidates.ecdanc said:
Yes.mrussel1 said:
C'mon, you know what people do for a living in this country. People who labor? Do people on the phones in customer service labor? Bank tellers? Shift supervisors on the Amazon waterhouse floor?ecdanc said:
I did just say "it's complicated," but roughly it would be those who must labor.mrussel1 said:
Fine, then define the proletariat in America today. Who are they?ecdanc said:
"Fanciful" is the honest billionaire.mrussel1 said:
Yes, but your idea relies on the notion that the proletariat will rise up around the world, successfully overturn its governments, and then form a worldwide economic system controlled by... no one? It's fanciful, at best. And the world moves further from Marx's vision every single day. It was simple when Marx wrote his book. You had workers and capital. Now, those lines are blurred.ecdanc said:
Well, if you're only going to talk about nations, it's gonna be a bit difficult to have an exchange with a non-statist communist.mrussel1 said:
Fair enough, but there hasn't been an example of communism (I'm not talking about communes, I'm talking about nations) where the country has not become statist. It is fundamentally Marxism in practice.ecdanc said:
Not entirely sure what you're trying to say with this response, but you said "the wealth goes to the statist government." I'm not a statist communist.mrussel1 said:
I don't struggle at all. You don't recall me writing about Leninism, Stalinism, or talking about how pieces of communism, as articulated by Marx are already in place in our society? You must not be an attentive reader. Go back a few pages. I've also pointed out multiple times that we aren't capitalist, that we are mixed. And some of that mix are Marxist ideas.ecdanc said:
You really struggle with the fact that there are different variants of communism. Here's a fun quiz for you that might help: https://www.gotoquiz.com/which_type_of_socialist_are_you?fbclid=IwAR2YbD2HSVj736vKPbuU_LiF8vyXNNdJ84Tq06j3qbHcVC7pkm1wwSVyeJQmrussel1 said:
Oh right, you're a real communist. Okay, so the wealth goes to the statist government and then is redistributed to the robots who did all the work. Got it. I love a great 18th century agrarian economic philosophy at work in the modern age.ecdanc said:
Who said anything about wages?mrussel1 said:
What's the proper wage rate for a robot?ecdanc said:All wealth belongs properly to labor. The accumulation of capital relies fundamentally upon exploitation (Buffett is actually a great example: his “honest” fortune derives almost entirely from “investment”).
What is the customer service manager at Bank of America, who gets paid 75k a year, and stock grants that vest over three year schedules? Are they proletariat or bourgeois? Are the white collar workers on the phone that get paid less, but are promoted to supervisors or managers at a 15% per year rate really proletariat?
Yes, it's complicated. Lots of difficult things are worth doing.Is Bloomberg foolish for running ads based on climate change? Will that be his super bowl ad?
whose vote is he winning with that topic?
since Bloomberg has money to burn, why wouldn’t he focus group swing states before running ads? I can’t imagine gun regulation and climate change will change minds over there.0 -
I'll ride the wave where it takes me......0
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The whole Iowa thing is just odd to me. It's really just a perception thing. Super Tuesday just seems so much more important.0
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mrussel1 said:
I agree with protecting or otherwise supporting small business owners. I don't have the solution, although I'm against breaking up Amazon. I think that's bad for consumers, to be honest. They also aren't a monopoly by any current law, so there's no basis for it either. That being said, finding a way so consumers are incentivized to buy local would be great, and I'm be very supportive of programs that do that.brianlux said:mrussel1 said:
While I understand your situation, and you may be altruistic in nature, the reality is that such an economic scale would create a situation where employers are incentivized to hire part time workers only. And why wouldn't they? If I could hire 1.5 people at $10 per hour vs 1 at $15, my employee expense is 30% less. It it wouldn't be Amazon that does this, it would be small and medium businesses where people expenses eats up a higher % of revenue. This was the danger of Obamacare and it absolutely has played out. In fact, the accounting firm that my wife works for has that exact policy. 30 hours max. Now it's great for us because we don't want her to work more than 30, but she couldn't work there if she wanted more.brianlux said:mrussel1 said:
But Brian, I seem to recall you being against a minimum wage of $15 per hour because your business couldn't support it. These workers are above that number.brianlux said:ecdanc said:
They don't need to do that- they get plenty fucked already by low wages and poor working conditions. And they and most of us pay all the taxes while Bezos pays none and buys his islands!I'm like a Republican that way- I'm only against something except for when I'm not. LOL Let me explain:I am the sole employee of my small part-time book and vinyl business which nets me less than minimum wage but I enjoy it and, because I have no pension or any other form of retirement income except social security, it helps. So what I'm saying here will relate to the bookstore business my wife and her business partner own and for which I help out part-time at a little over minimum wage:I am in favor of a living wage for workers who rely on their work related income. In other words- a working person who relies on their paycheck to support themselves and/or a family, that person should earn at least a minimum wage in order to do so. But many small businesses- my wife's is a good example- rely on part-time help to stay afloat. The bookstore has had a number of employees who work their either to supplement their income post retirement (people who only get social security and need a little extra to get by) or students who want a little extra income before they go off into the world of full-time work. I think there should be an exception to minimum wage for businesses that hire part-time help for those folks. Some small businesses- used bookstores are an excellent example- run on a thin margin. Some years it gets really close to the wire trying to stay afloat. If the minimum wage right now were $15 for all employees- we would have to let someone go- not so that we could live the Bezos life- but so that we could keep the business going. And that store is a big asset to our community. I cannot tell you how many times I've head customers say, "I hope you never close, that would be terrible." I'm sure there are other small businesses like that. I can think of several used bookstores and record stores that have gone out of business due to high cost of running a small business that I sorely miss. To name a few:Chimeras Book, Palo AltoWessex Used Books, Menlo ParkSunset Books, San FranciscoThe Beat (record and CD store in Sacramento)Cody's Books, BerkeleyThe Book Worm, FolsomKepler's Books (actually still in business but only due to a very large donation)
You make some good points and yes, there would have to be some way of preventing abuse of my proposed system. I'm honestly not sure how that would work. Maybe I'm looking at it backwards. Maybe there needs to be some way to protect small businesses from being run out of business by people like Bezos. I say this because I know from experience that small businesses add a lot of social and cultural value to small towns (e.g. The Bookery/ Placerville) and neighborhood in cities (e.g. Dog Eared Books in the Mission District of San Francisco). When those small businesses are unable to stay afloat, the community or neighborhood loses some of its quality as a place to live.
I'm very much down on Amazon for two reasons: Bezos' ambition to drive small businesses out of business, and Amazon paying zero taxes. It amazes me that more people are not outraged by that later point. I just don't get it. But I don't hate the idea of Amazon altogether. I'm not at all against on-line shopping. Were it not for on-line sources, much of the music I enjoy would not be available to me in my preferred format- vinyl. But I do strongly think Amazon should pay taxes, not make it a priority to close down small independent retailers, pay their employees a living wage, and improve their working conditions.
"It's a sad and beautiful world"-Roberto Benigni0 -
That should absolutely pay more taxes. But there's a hundred companies that fall into that same bucket. Jeff Bezos is a minority shareholder in Amazon. He only owns 4%. So imagine if he put up a measure to the board and shareholders (me, and probably lots of people on this board, through their retirement) to pay some amount of taxes not required by law. It would fail. It's not his call and I can guarantee you no shareholder majority would go for it. The problem is the tax code, not Amazon.brianlux said:mrussel1 said:
I agree with protecting or otherwise supporting small business owners. I don't have the solution, although I'm against breaking up Amazon. I think that's bad for consumers, to be honest. They also aren't a monopoly by any current law, so there's no basis for it either. That being said, finding a way so consumers are incentivized to buy local would be great, and I'm be very supportive of programs that do that.brianlux said:mrussel1 said:
While I understand your situation, and you may be altruistic in nature, the reality is that such an economic scale would create a situation where employers are incentivized to hire part time workers only. And why wouldn't they? If I could hire 1.5 people at $10 per hour vs 1 at $15, my employee expense is 30% less. It it wouldn't be Amazon that does this, it would be small and medium businesses where people expenses eats up a higher % of revenue. This was the danger of Obamacare and it absolutely has played out. In fact, the accounting firm that my wife works for has that exact policy. 30 hours max. Now it's great for us because we don't want her to work more than 30, but she couldn't work there if she wanted more.brianlux said:mrussel1 said:
But Brian, I seem to recall you being against a minimum wage of $15 per hour because your business couldn't support it. These workers are above that number.brianlux said:ecdanc said:
They don't need to do that- they get plenty fucked already by low wages and poor working conditions. And they and most of us pay all the taxes while Bezos pays none and buys his islands!I'm like a Republican that way- I'm only against something except for when I'm not. LOL Let me explain:I am the sole employee of my small part-time book and vinyl business which nets me less than minimum wage but I enjoy it and, because I have no pension or any other form of retirement income except social security, it helps. So what I'm saying here will relate to the bookstore business my wife and her business partner own and for which I help out part-time at a little over minimum wage:I am in favor of a living wage for workers who rely on their work related income. In other words- a working person who relies on their paycheck to support themselves and/or a family, that person should earn at least a minimum wage in order to do so. But many small businesses- my wife's is a good example- rely on part-time help to stay afloat. The bookstore has had a number of employees who work their either to supplement their income post retirement (people who only get social security and need a little extra to get by) or students who want a little extra income before they go off into the world of full-time work. I think there should be an exception to minimum wage for businesses that hire part-time help for those folks. Some small businesses- used bookstores are an excellent example- run on a thin margin. Some years it gets really close to the wire trying to stay afloat. If the minimum wage right now were $15 for all employees- we would have to let someone go- not so that we could live the Bezos life- but so that we could keep the business going. And that store is a big asset to our community. I cannot tell you how many times I've head customers say, "I hope you never close, that would be terrible." I'm sure there are other small businesses like that. I can think of several used bookstores and record stores that have gone out of business due to high cost of running a small business that I sorely miss. To name a few:Chimeras Book, Palo AltoWessex Used Books, Menlo ParkSunset Books, San FranciscoThe Beat (record and CD store in Sacramento)Cody's Books, BerkeleyThe Book Worm, FolsomKepler's Books (actually still in business but only due to a very large donation)
You make some good points and yes, there would have to be some way of preventing abuse of my proposed system. I'm honestly not sure how that would work. Maybe I'm looking at it backwards. Maybe there needs to be some way to protect small businesses from being run out of business by people like Bezos. I say this because I know from experience that small businesses add a lot of social and cultural value to small towns (e.g. The Bookery/ Placerville) and neighborhood in cities (e.g. Dog Eared Books in the Mission District of San Francisco). When those small businesses are unable to stay afloat, the community or neighborhood loses some of its quality as a place to live.
I'm very much down on Amazon for two reasons: Bezos' ambition to drive small businesses out of business, and Amazon paying zero taxes. It amazes me that more people are not outraged by that later point. I just don't get it. But I don't hate the idea of Amazon altogether. I'm not at all against on-line shopping. Were it not for on-line sources, much of the music I enjoy would not be available to me in my preferred format- vinyl. But I do strongly think Amazon should pay taxes, not make it a priority to close down small independent retailers, pay their employees a living wage, and improve their working conditions.0 -
I don't know why every state doesn't hold their primary/caucus on the same day. Or why this winds up being an almost 2 year process. Want to get money out of politics? Start by drastically slimming down the unnecessary pageantry.mrussel1 said:The whole Iowa thing is just odd to me. It's really just a perception thing. Super Tuesday just seems so much more important.0 -
Agreed! Problem is no state party apparatus wants to give up their leverage.pjl44 said:
I don't know why every state doesn't hold their primary/caucus on the same day. Or why this winds up being an almost 2 year process. Want to get money out of politics? Start by drastically slimming down the unnecessary pageantry.mrussel1 said:The whole Iowa thing is just odd to me. It's really just a perception thing. Super Tuesday just seems so much more important.0 -
Or all the sweet, sweet jobs that suck up all of those campaign funds. People should remember this when they whine about the wealthy having undue influence over the process. Maybe it's because these campaigns desperately need to raise hundreds of millions of dollars to keep the train chugging along for 2 years.mrussel1 said:
Agreed! Problem is no state party apparatus wants to give up their leverage.pjl44 said:
I don't know why every state doesn't hold their primary/caucus on the same day. Or why this winds up being an almost 2 year process. Want to get money out of politics? Start by drastically slimming down the unnecessary pageantry.mrussel1 said:The whole Iowa thing is just odd to me. It's really just a perception thing. Super Tuesday just seems so much more important.0 -
I just did.ecdanc said:
That would be weird. Let me know if you see a professor doing that.cincybearcat said:
It seems weird for a professor to minimize intellectual property/effort. Isn’t that what teaching is? I for one think that has value.mrussel1 said:
You put zero value in the idea and the work that went into starting the factory. If one received zero for such things, what's the point of having an idea, and how do humans advance? Again, you can look at Soviet era technological advancements compared to the US. We don't need theories when we have results.ecdanc said:hippiemom = goodness0
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