The Democratic Presidential Debates

mrussel1 · January 2020

ecdanc said:

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mrussel1 said:

ecdanc said:

mrussel1 said:

ecdanc said:

mrussel1 said:

ecdanc said:

mrussel1 said:

ecdanc said:

mrussel1 said:

ecdanc said:

mrussel1 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mrussel1 said:
Regarding your point, I think communism, as it were, could probably be fine in a small group of people. But in a nation state, it has utterly failed.

With communism there would not be a "state". So that is a contradiction on your part, or what you are talking about is not the idea of communism.

Again, the Soviet Union tried that. It didn't work. The planning came from Moscow and they treated the true Russians very differently than the Ukrainians, the Poles, etc. So the scourge of nationalism and ethnicity continued to drive Moscow.

You're not even correct at the most basic level, man. There are variants of communism. Some actually have a very strong, centralized state (e.g., the USSR); others do not (e.g., anarcho-communism).

No shit, but we're talking about Communism as practiced which is essentially Leninism. I've already said that as a philosophy Communism is interesting, but in practice, human nature corrupts it. You said "there's no such thing as human nature", and I said "fine then Communism is corrupt" because I'm not arguing dumb points. We have real live evidence of Communism in practice. We don't have to read books to see how it will go. The same is true for capitalism. On paper, laissez-faire capitalism looks all well and good, but it had serious flaws. This is how we've evolved to a market based economy, with certain government controls (read: regulations) with sprinkles of socialism (social security, medicare, medicaid, etc.).

I really don't think you know much about Soviet history....

I'll give it to you, your take on human nature makes me chuckle. I was just typing up some notes for my graduate students about the myth of human nature and how, in my class, they don't get to disagree with that position.

If anything, you've shown you are not open to disagreement, so I'm sure that extends to your classroom. It must be a very robust academic environment. You truly are tailored made for a communist state.

Are you the guy who thinks flat earthers should be treated respectfully in science classes?

Yet another ridiculous comparison. I'm not getting back into your belief that philosophical concepts are unassailable. That is just arrogance.

Is it more arrogant for me to say "the discipline in which I'm an expert has epistemological foundations (i.e., what counts as knowledge) just like science does?" Or for you to say "no it doesn't?"

1) Your refusal to be open to competing philosophical arguments is the arrogance. A satellite image of Earth is pretty unassailable.

2) You still have not provided a persuasive argument that Communism has succeeded for a nation.

1) You're really embracing the dismissal of entire academic disciplines. I'm used to it, but you don't get the high ground on accusations of arrogance if you're going to do that.

2) I haven't tried to.

Once more, you totally misrepresent a position. No one dismissed your position, nor did I say that there is absolutely human nature. You are the one that is dismissive of counter-arguments, going so far as doing so in your classroom. You are projecting your issues on us.

Because my discipline has rejected the notion of human nature. It wasn't my decision, no more than current scientists decided the earth is round. What's complicated about that?

I mean, you seem to imagine higher education as a space where all ideas (no matter how inane) should be treated equally.

So you're saying that the debate that has gone on for centuries is now solved and no longer open for discussion. You're saying that I could not find one academic who thinks that either there is human nature, or that is still a debatable topic, is that correct? Just want to be sure before I do a little digging on the topic.
Now, I know I can't find one true astrologist or geologist that argues the Earth is flat, so using your comparison as the jumping off point, I should not be able to find an humanities/philosophy academic that disagrees with your unassailable statement.

ecdanc · January 2020

mrussel1 said:

show previous quotes

ecdanc said:

mrussel1 said:

ecdanc said:

mrussel1 said:

ecdanc said:

mrussel1 said:

ecdanc said:

mrussel1 said:

ecdanc said:

mrussel1 said:

ecdanc said:

mrussel1 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mrussel1 said:
Regarding your point, I think communism, as it were, could probably be fine in a small group of people. But in a nation state, it has utterly failed.

With communism there would not be a "state". So that is a contradiction on your part, or what you are talking about is not the idea of communism.

Again, the Soviet Union tried that. It didn't work. The planning came from Moscow and they treated the true Russians very differently than the Ukrainians, the Poles, etc. So the scourge of nationalism and ethnicity continued to drive Moscow.

You're not even correct at the most basic level, man. There are variants of communism. Some actually have a very strong, centralized state (e.g., the USSR); others do not (e.g., anarcho-communism).

No shit, but we're talking about Communism as practiced which is essentially Leninism. I've already said that as a philosophy Communism is interesting, but in practice, human nature corrupts it. You said "there's no such thing as human nature", and I said "fine then Communism is corrupt" because I'm not arguing dumb points. We have real live evidence of Communism in practice. We don't have to read books to see how it will go. The same is true for capitalism. On paper, laissez-faire capitalism looks all well and good, but it had serious flaws. This is how we've evolved to a market based economy, with certain government controls (read: regulations) with sprinkles of socialism (social security, medicare, medicaid, etc.).

I really don't think you know much about Soviet history....

I'll give it to you, your take on human nature makes me chuckle. I was just typing up some notes for my graduate students about the myth of human nature and how, in my class, they don't get to disagree with that position.

If anything, you've shown you are not open to disagreement, so I'm sure that extends to your classroom. It must be a very robust academic environment. You truly are tailored made for a communist state.

Are you the guy who thinks flat earthers should be treated respectfully in science classes?

Yet another ridiculous comparison. I'm not getting back into your belief that philosophical concepts are unassailable. That is just arrogance.

Is it more arrogant for me to say "the discipline in which I'm an expert has epistemological foundations (i.e., what counts as knowledge) just like science does?" Or for you to say "no it doesn't?"

1) Your refusal to be open to competing philosophical arguments is the arrogance. A satellite image of Earth is pretty unassailable.

2) You still have not provided a persuasive argument that Communism has succeeded for a nation.

1) You're really embracing the dismissal of entire academic disciplines. I'm used to it, but you don't get the high ground on accusations of arrogance if you're going to do that.

2) I haven't tried to.

Once more, you totally misrepresent a position. No one dismissed your position, nor did I say that there is absolutely human nature. You are the one that is dismissive of counter-arguments, going so far as doing so in your classroom. You are projecting your issues on us.

Because my discipline has rejected the notion of human nature. It wasn't my decision, no more than current scientists decided the earth is round. What's complicated about that?

I mean, you seem to imagine higher education as a space where all ideas (no matter how inane) should be treated equally.

So you're saying that the debate that has gone on for centuries is now solved and no longer open for discussion. You're saying that I could not find one academic who thinks that either there is human nature, or that is still a debatable topic, is that correct? Just want to be sure before I do a little digging on the topic.
Now, I know I can't find one true astrologist or geologist that argues the Earth is flat, so using your comparison as the jumping off point, I should not be able to find an humanities/philosophy academic that disagrees with your unassailable statement.

I'll return to your actual point in a moment, but your reading comprehension is just infuriating sometimes. You still don't seem to know what my discipline is (even though you've responded to almost every post I've made for days).

Spiritual_Chaos · January 2020

Anyone wanna talk about Yang?

mrussel1 · January 2020

ecdanc said:

show previous quotes

mrussel1 said:

ecdanc said:

mrussel1 said:

ecdanc said:

mrussel1 said:

ecdanc said:

mrussel1 said:

ecdanc said:

mrussel1 said:

ecdanc said:

mrussel1 said:

ecdanc said:

mrussel1 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mrussel1 said:
Regarding your point, I think communism, as it were, could probably be fine in a small group of people. But in a nation state, it has utterly failed.

With communism there would not be a "state". So that is a contradiction on your part, or what you are talking about is not the idea of communism.

Again, the Soviet Union tried that. It didn't work. The planning came from Moscow and they treated the true Russians very differently than the Ukrainians, the Poles, etc. So the scourge of nationalism and ethnicity continued to drive Moscow.

You're not even correct at the most basic level, man. There are variants of communism. Some actually have a very strong, centralized state (e.g., the USSR); others do not (e.g., anarcho-communism).

No shit, but we're talking about Communism as practiced which is essentially Leninism. I've already said that as a philosophy Communism is interesting, but in practice, human nature corrupts it. You said "there's no such thing as human nature", and I said "fine then Communism is corrupt" because I'm not arguing dumb points. We have real live evidence of Communism in practice. We don't have to read books to see how it will go. The same is true for capitalism. On paper, laissez-faire capitalism looks all well and good, but it had serious flaws. This is how we've evolved to a market based economy, with certain government controls (read: regulations) with sprinkles of socialism (social security, medicare, medicaid, etc.).

I really don't think you know much about Soviet history....

I'll give it to you, your take on human nature makes me chuckle. I was just typing up some notes for my graduate students about the myth of human nature and how, in my class, they don't get to disagree with that position.

If anything, you've shown you are not open to disagreement, so I'm sure that extends to your classroom. It must be a very robust academic environment. You truly are tailored made for a communist state.

Are you the guy who thinks flat earthers should be treated respectfully in science classes?

Yet another ridiculous comparison. I'm not getting back into your belief that philosophical concepts are unassailable. That is just arrogance.

Is it more arrogant for me to say "the discipline in which I'm an expert has epistemological foundations (i.e., what counts as knowledge) just like science does?" Or for you to say "no it doesn't?"

1) Your refusal to be open to competing philosophical arguments is the arrogance. A satellite image of Earth is pretty unassailable.

2) You still have not provided a persuasive argument that Communism has succeeded for a nation.

1) You're really embracing the dismissal of entire academic disciplines. I'm used to it, but you don't get the high ground on accusations of arrogance if you're going to do that.

2) I haven't tried to.

Once more, you totally misrepresent a position. No one dismissed your position, nor did I say that there is absolutely human nature. You are the one that is dismissive of counter-arguments, going so far as doing so in your classroom. You are projecting your issues on us.

Because my discipline has rejected the notion of human nature. It wasn't my decision, no more than current scientists decided the earth is round. What's complicated about that?

I mean, you seem to imagine higher education as a space where all ideas (no matter how inane) should be treated equally.

So you're saying that the debate that has gone on for centuries is now solved and no longer open for discussion. You're saying that I could not find one academic who thinks that either there is human nature, or that is still a debatable topic, is that correct? Just want to be sure before I do a little digging on the topic.
Now, I know I can't find one true astrologist or geologist that argues the Earth is flat, so using your comparison as the jumping off point, I should not be able to find an humanities/philosophy academic that disagrees with your unassailable statement.

I'll return to your actual point in a moment, but your reading comprehension is just infuriating sometimes. You still don't seem to know what my discipline is (even though you've responded to almost every post I've made for days).

I really don't care enough to remember, but this is philosophical question. At the end of the day, now it seems that you're arguing that maybe philosophers have a different take than you, but your argument is the right one? Am I reading that right? How about not being cagey and answering the question. If it's unassailable, it should cross disciplines.

ecdanc · January 2020

mrussel1 said:

show previous quotes

ecdanc said:

mrussel1 said:

ecdanc said:

mrussel1 said:

ecdanc said:

mrussel1 said:

ecdanc said:

mrussel1 said:

ecdanc said:

mrussel1 said:

ecdanc said:

mrussel1 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mrussel1 said:
Regarding your point, I think communism, as it were, could probably be fine in a small group of people. But in a nation state, it has utterly failed.

With communism there would not be a "state". So that is a contradiction on your part, or what you are talking about is not the idea of communism.

Again, the Soviet Union tried that. It didn't work. The planning came from Moscow and they treated the true Russians very differently than the Ukrainians, the Poles, etc. So the scourge of nationalism and ethnicity continued to drive Moscow.

You're not even correct at the most basic level, man. There are variants of communism. Some actually have a very strong, centralized state (e.g., the USSR); others do not (e.g., anarcho-communism).

No shit, but we're talking about Communism as practiced which is essentially Leninism. I've already said that as a philosophy Communism is interesting, but in practice, human nature corrupts it. You said "there's no such thing as human nature", and I said "fine then Communism is corrupt" because I'm not arguing dumb points. We have real live evidence of Communism in practice. We don't have to read books to see how it will go. The same is true for capitalism. On paper, laissez-faire capitalism looks all well and good, but it had serious flaws. This is how we've evolved to a market based economy, with certain government controls (read: regulations) with sprinkles of socialism (social security, medicare, medicaid, etc.).

I really don't think you know much about Soviet history....

I'll give it to you, your take on human nature makes me chuckle. I was just typing up some notes for my graduate students about the myth of human nature and how, in my class, they don't get to disagree with that position.

If anything, you've shown you are not open to disagreement, so I'm sure that extends to your classroom. It must be a very robust academic environment. You truly are tailored made for a communist state.

Are you the guy who thinks flat earthers should be treated respectfully in science classes?

Yet another ridiculous comparison. I'm not getting back into your belief that philosophical concepts are unassailable. That is just arrogance.

Is it more arrogant for me to say "the discipline in which I'm an expert has epistemological foundations (i.e., what counts as knowledge) just like science does?" Or for you to say "no it doesn't?"

1) Your refusal to be open to competing philosophical arguments is the arrogance. A satellite image of Earth is pretty unassailable.

2) You still have not provided a persuasive argument that Communism has succeeded for a nation.

1) You're really embracing the dismissal of entire academic disciplines. I'm used to it, but you don't get the high ground on accusations of arrogance if you're going to do that.

2) I haven't tried to.

Once more, you totally misrepresent a position. No one dismissed your position, nor did I say that there is absolutely human nature. You are the one that is dismissive of counter-arguments, going so far as doing so in your classroom. You are projecting your issues on us.

Because my discipline has rejected the notion of human nature. It wasn't my decision, no more than current scientists decided the earth is round. What's complicated about that?

I mean, you seem to imagine higher education as a space where all ideas (no matter how inane) should be treated equally.

So you're saying that the debate that has gone on for centuries is now solved and no longer open for discussion. You're saying that I could not find one academic who thinks that either there is human nature, or that is still a debatable topic, is that correct? Just want to be sure before I do a little digging on the topic.
Now, I know I can't find one true astrologist or geologist that argues the Earth is flat, so using your comparison as the jumping off point, I should not be able to find an humanities/philosophy academic that disagrees with your unassailable statement.

Not that you care, but here is a small portion of what I tell my students:

"...when you write your own work, you need to keep in mind that your goal is to learn--and to stay within--our current epistemological boundaries. I'm going to put this as directly as I possibly can: [our text] outlines five foundational assumptions . . . . These are not something with which you get to disagree. Sure, you can personally disagree with them; but as a student in this discipline, you must accept them in order to produce any work that will count as knowledge. Just like current scientists have rejected much of 1950s science, current . . . . scholars have rejected [certain ideas]."

ecdanc · January 2020

mrussel1 said:

show previous quotes

ecdanc said:

mrussel1 said:

ecdanc said:

mrussel1 said:

ecdanc said:

mrussel1 said:

ecdanc said:

mrussel1 said:

ecdanc said:

mrussel1 said:

ecdanc said:

mrussel1 said:

ecdanc said:

mrussel1 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mrussel1 said:
Regarding your point, I think communism, as it were, could probably be fine in a small group of people. But in a nation state, it has utterly failed.

With communism there would not be a "state". So that is a contradiction on your part, or what you are talking about is not the idea of communism.

Again, the Soviet Union tried that. It didn't work. The planning came from Moscow and they treated the true Russians very differently than the Ukrainians, the Poles, etc. So the scourge of nationalism and ethnicity continued to drive Moscow.

You're not even correct at the most basic level, man. There are variants of communism. Some actually have a very strong, centralized state (e.g., the USSR); others do not (e.g., anarcho-communism).

No shit, but we're talking about Communism as practiced which is essentially Leninism. I've already said that as a philosophy Communism is interesting, but in practice, human nature corrupts it. You said "there's no such thing as human nature", and I said "fine then Communism is corrupt" because I'm not arguing dumb points. We have real live evidence of Communism in practice. We don't have to read books to see how it will go. The same is true for capitalism. On paper, laissez-faire capitalism looks all well and good, but it had serious flaws. This is how we've evolved to a market based economy, with certain government controls (read: regulations) with sprinkles of socialism (social security, medicare, medicaid, etc.).

I really don't think you know much about Soviet history....

I'll give it to you, your take on human nature makes me chuckle. I was just typing up some notes for my graduate students about the myth of human nature and how, in my class, they don't get to disagree with that position.

If anything, you've shown you are not open to disagreement, so I'm sure that extends to your classroom. It must be a very robust academic environment. You truly are tailored made for a communist state.

Are you the guy who thinks flat earthers should be treated respectfully in science classes?

Yet another ridiculous comparison. I'm not getting back into your belief that philosophical concepts are unassailable. That is just arrogance.

Is it more arrogant for me to say "the discipline in which I'm an expert has epistemological foundations (i.e., what counts as knowledge) just like science does?" Or for you to say "no it doesn't?"

1) Your refusal to be open to competing philosophical arguments is the arrogance. A satellite image of Earth is pretty unassailable.

2) You still have not provided a persuasive argument that Communism has succeeded for a nation.

1) You're really embracing the dismissal of entire academic disciplines. I'm used to it, but you don't get the high ground on accusations of arrogance if you're going to do that.

2) I haven't tried to.

Once more, you totally misrepresent a position. No one dismissed your position, nor did I say that there is absolutely human nature. You are the one that is dismissive of counter-arguments, going so far as doing so in your classroom. You are projecting your issues on us.

Because my discipline has rejected the notion of human nature. It wasn't my decision, no more than current scientists decided the earth is round. What's complicated about that?

I mean, you seem to imagine higher education as a space where all ideas (no matter how inane) should be treated equally.

So you're saying that the debate that has gone on for centuries is now solved and no longer open for discussion. You're saying that I could not find one academic who thinks that either there is human nature, or that is still a debatable topic, is that correct? Just want to be sure before I do a little digging on the topic.
Now, I know I can't find one true astrologist or geologist that argues the Earth is flat, so using your comparison as the jumping off point, I should not be able to find an humanities/philosophy academic that disagrees with your unassailable statement.

I'll return to your actual point in a moment, but your reading comprehension is just infuriating sometimes. You still don't seem to know what my discipline is (even though you've responded to almost every post I've made for days).

I really don't care enough to remember, but this is philosophical question. At the end of the day, now it seems that you're arguing that maybe philosophers have a different take than you, but your argument is the right one? Am I reading that right? How about not being cagey and answering the question. If it's unassailable, it should cross disciplines.

You clearly don't know how academic disciplines work.

mrussel1 · January 2020

ecdanc said:

show previous quotes

mrussel1 said:

ecdanc said:

mrussel1 said:

ecdanc said:

mrussel1 said:

ecdanc said:

mrussel1 said:

ecdanc said:

mrussel1 said:

ecdanc said:

mrussel1 said:

ecdanc said:

mrussel1 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mrussel1 said:
Regarding your point, I think communism, as it were, could probably be fine in a small group of people. But in a nation state, it has utterly failed.

With communism there would not be a "state". So that is a contradiction on your part, or what you are talking about is not the idea of communism.

Again, the Soviet Union tried that. It didn't work. The planning came from Moscow and they treated the true Russians very differently than the Ukrainians, the Poles, etc. So the scourge of nationalism and ethnicity continued to drive Moscow.

You're not even correct at the most basic level, man. There are variants of communism. Some actually have a very strong, centralized state (e.g., the USSR); others do not (e.g., anarcho-communism).

No shit, but we're talking about Communism as practiced which is essentially Leninism. I've already said that as a philosophy Communism is interesting, but in practice, human nature corrupts it. You said "there's no such thing as human nature", and I said "fine then Communism is corrupt" because I'm not arguing dumb points. We have real live evidence of Communism in practice. We don't have to read books to see how it will go. The same is true for capitalism. On paper, laissez-faire capitalism looks all well and good, but it had serious flaws. This is how we've evolved to a market based economy, with certain government controls (read: regulations) with sprinkles of socialism (social security, medicare, medicaid, etc.).

I really don't think you know much about Soviet history....

I'll give it to you, your take on human nature makes me chuckle. I was just typing up some notes for my graduate students about the myth of human nature and how, in my class, they don't get to disagree with that position.

If anything, you've shown you are not open to disagreement, so I'm sure that extends to your classroom. It must be a very robust academic environment. You truly are tailored made for a communist state.

Are you the guy who thinks flat earthers should be treated respectfully in science classes?

Yet another ridiculous comparison. I'm not getting back into your belief that philosophical concepts are unassailable. That is just arrogance.

Is it more arrogant for me to say "the discipline in which I'm an expert has epistemological foundations (i.e., what counts as knowledge) just like science does?" Or for you to say "no it doesn't?"

1) Your refusal to be open to competing philosophical arguments is the arrogance. A satellite image of Earth is pretty unassailable.

2) You still have not provided a persuasive argument that Communism has succeeded for a nation.

1) You're really embracing the dismissal of entire academic disciplines. I'm used to it, but you don't get the high ground on accusations of arrogance if you're going to do that.

2) I haven't tried to.

Once more, you totally misrepresent a position. No one dismissed your position, nor did I say that there is absolutely human nature. You are the one that is dismissive of counter-arguments, going so far as doing so in your classroom. You are projecting your issues on us.

Because my discipline has rejected the notion of human nature. It wasn't my decision, no more than current scientists decided the earth is round. What's complicated about that?

I mean, you seem to imagine higher education as a space where all ideas (no matter how inane) should be treated equally.

So you're saying that the debate that has gone on for centuries is now solved and no longer open for discussion. You're saying that I could not find one academic who thinks that either there is human nature, or that is still a debatable topic, is that correct? Just want to be sure before I do a little digging on the topic.
Now, I know I can't find one true astrologist or geologist that argues the Earth is flat, so using your comparison as the jumping off point, I should not be able to find an humanities/philosophy academic that disagrees with your unassailable statement.

Not that you care, but here is a small portion of what I tell my students:

"...when you write your own work, you need to keep in mind that your goal is to learn--and to stay within--our current epistemological boundaries. I'm going to put this as directly as I possibly can: [our text] outlines five foundational assumptions . . . . These are not something with which you get to disagree. Sure, you can personally disagree with them; but as a student in this discipline, you must accept them in order to produce any work that will count as knowledge. Just like current scientists have rejected much of 1950s science, current . . . . scholars have rejected [certain ideas]."

The boundaries of this discussion are not your discipline. No one cares what academics in your field set forth as truth. That's not the real world, that's your world. And if that's what you're doing, then this is why you can't identify with counter arguments nor convince anyone of your arguments. You've created your own mental box.

ecdanc · January 2020

mrussel1 said:

show previous quotes

ecdanc said:

mrussel1 said:

ecdanc said:

mrussel1 said:

ecdanc said:

mrussel1 said:

ecdanc said:

mrussel1 said:

ecdanc said:

mrussel1 said:

ecdanc said:

mrussel1 said:

ecdanc said:

mrussel1 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mrussel1 said:
Regarding your point, I think communism, as it were, could probably be fine in a small group of people. But in a nation state, it has utterly failed.

With communism there would not be a "state". So that is a contradiction on your part, or what you are talking about is not the idea of communism.

Again, the Soviet Union tried that. It didn't work. The planning came from Moscow and they treated the true Russians very differently than the Ukrainians, the Poles, etc. So the scourge of nationalism and ethnicity continued to drive Moscow.

You're not even correct at the most basic level, man. There are variants of communism. Some actually have a very strong, centralized state (e.g., the USSR); others do not (e.g., anarcho-communism).

No shit, but we're talking about Communism as practiced which is essentially Leninism. I've already said that as a philosophy Communism is interesting, but in practice, human nature corrupts it. You said "there's no such thing as human nature", and I said "fine then Communism is corrupt" because I'm not arguing dumb points. We have real live evidence of Communism in practice. We don't have to read books to see how it will go. The same is true for capitalism. On paper, laissez-faire capitalism looks all well and good, but it had serious flaws. This is how we've evolved to a market based economy, with certain government controls (read: regulations) with sprinkles of socialism (social security, medicare, medicaid, etc.).

I really don't think you know much about Soviet history....

I'll give it to you, your take on human nature makes me chuckle. I was just typing up some notes for my graduate students about the myth of human nature and how, in my class, they don't get to disagree with that position.

If anything, you've shown you are not open to disagreement, so I'm sure that extends to your classroom. It must be a very robust academic environment. You truly are tailored made for a communist state.

Are you the guy who thinks flat earthers should be treated respectfully in science classes?

Yet another ridiculous comparison. I'm not getting back into your belief that philosophical concepts are unassailable. That is just arrogance.

Is it more arrogant for me to say "the discipline in which I'm an expert has epistemological foundations (i.e., what counts as knowledge) just like science does?" Or for you to say "no it doesn't?"

1) Your refusal to be open to competing philosophical arguments is the arrogance. A satellite image of Earth is pretty unassailable.

2) You still have not provided a persuasive argument that Communism has succeeded for a nation.

1) You're really embracing the dismissal of entire academic disciplines. I'm used to it, but you don't get the high ground on accusations of arrogance if you're going to do that.

2) I haven't tried to.

Once more, you totally misrepresent a position. No one dismissed your position, nor did I say that there is absolutely human nature. You are the one that is dismissive of counter-arguments, going so far as doing so in your classroom. You are projecting your issues on us.

Because my discipline has rejected the notion of human nature. It wasn't my decision, no more than current scientists decided the earth is round. What's complicated about that?

I mean, you seem to imagine higher education as a space where all ideas (no matter how inane) should be treated equally.

So you're saying that the debate that has gone on for centuries is now solved and no longer open for discussion. You're saying that I could not find one academic who thinks that either there is human nature, or that is still a debatable topic, is that correct? Just want to be sure before I do a little digging on the topic.
Now, I know I can't find one true astrologist or geologist that argues the Earth is flat, so using your comparison as the jumping off point, I should not be able to find an humanities/philosophy academic that disagrees with your unassailable statement.

Not that you care, but here is a small portion of what I tell my students:

"...when you write your own work, you need to keep in mind that your goal is to learn--and to stay within--our current epistemological boundaries. I'm going to put this as directly as I possibly can: [our text] outlines five foundational assumptions . . . . These are not something with which you get to disagree. Sure, you can personally disagree with them; but as a student in this discipline, you must accept them in order to produce any work that will count as knowledge. Just like current scientists have rejected much of 1950s science, current . . . . scholars have rejected [certain ideas]."

The boundaries of this discussion are not your discipline. No one cares what academics in your field set forth as truth. That's not the real world, that's your world. And if that's what you're doing, then this is why you can't identify with counter arguments nor convince anyone of your arguments. You've created your own mental box.

Except that's literally the subject of our current conversation.

But, to perhaps move us forward, do you have a list of the academic disciplines that get to have epistemologies and which ones don't? Put differently, what are the areas in which you would actually admit that someone can be an "expert?" And in what areas could you never make such an admission?

Spiritual_Chaos · January 2020

Haha. Biden.

https://twitter.com/BoKnowsNews/status/1223050275688271875?s=20

ecdanc · January 2020

Spiritual_Chaos said:

Haha. Biden.

https://twitter.com/BoKnowsNews/status/1223050275688271875?s=20

https://politics.theonion.com/you-re-a-piece-of-shit-and-i-hope-everyone-like-you-di-1841363666

mrussel1 · January 2020

ecdanc said:

show previous quotes

mrussel1 said:

ecdanc said:

mrussel1 said:

ecdanc said:

mrussel1 said:

ecdanc said:

mrussel1 said:

ecdanc said:

mrussel1 said:

ecdanc said:

mrussel1 said:

ecdanc said:

mrussel1 said:

ecdanc said:

mrussel1 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mrussel1 said:
Regarding your point, I think communism, as it were, could probably be fine in a small group of people. But in a nation state, it has utterly failed.

With communism there would not be a "state". So that is a contradiction on your part, or what you are talking about is not the idea of communism.

Again, the Soviet Union tried that. It didn't work. The planning came from Moscow and they treated the true Russians very differently than the Ukrainians, the Poles, etc. So the scourge of nationalism and ethnicity continued to drive Moscow.

You're not even correct at the most basic level, man. There are variants of communism. Some actually have a very strong, centralized state (e.g., the USSR); others do not (e.g., anarcho-communism).

No shit, but we're talking about Communism as practiced which is essentially Leninism. I've already said that as a philosophy Communism is interesting, but in practice, human nature corrupts it. You said "there's no such thing as human nature", and I said "fine then Communism is corrupt" because I'm not arguing dumb points. We have real live evidence of Communism in practice. We don't have to read books to see how it will go. The same is true for capitalism. On paper, laissez-faire capitalism looks all well and good, but it had serious flaws. This is how we've evolved to a market based economy, with certain government controls (read: regulations) with sprinkles of socialism (social security, medicare, medicaid, etc.).

I really don't think you know much about Soviet history....

I'll give it to you, your take on human nature makes me chuckle. I was just typing up some notes for my graduate students about the myth of human nature and how, in my class, they don't get to disagree with that position.

If anything, you've shown you are not open to disagreement, so I'm sure that extends to your classroom. It must be a very robust academic environment. You truly are tailored made for a communist state.

Are you the guy who thinks flat earthers should be treated respectfully in science classes?

Yet another ridiculous comparison. I'm not getting back into your belief that philosophical concepts are unassailable. That is just arrogance.

Is it more arrogant for me to say "the discipline in which I'm an expert has epistemological foundations (i.e., what counts as knowledge) just like science does?" Or for you to say "no it doesn't?"

1) Your refusal to be open to competing philosophical arguments is the arrogance. A satellite image of Earth is pretty unassailable.

2) You still have not provided a persuasive argument that Communism has succeeded for a nation.

1) You're really embracing the dismissal of entire academic disciplines. I'm used to it, but you don't get the high ground on accusations of arrogance if you're going to do that.

2) I haven't tried to.

Once more, you totally misrepresent a position. No one dismissed your position, nor did I say that there is absolutely human nature. You are the one that is dismissive of counter-arguments, going so far as doing so in your classroom. You are projecting your issues on us.

Because my discipline has rejected the notion of human nature. It wasn't my decision, no more than current scientists decided the earth is round. What's complicated about that?

I mean, you seem to imagine higher education as a space where all ideas (no matter how inane) should be treated equally.

So you're saying that the debate that has gone on for centuries is now solved and no longer open for discussion. You're saying that I could not find one academic who thinks that either there is human nature, or that is still a debatable topic, is that correct? Just want to be sure before I do a little digging on the topic.
Now, I know I can't find one true astrologist or geologist that argues the Earth is flat, so using your comparison as the jumping off point, I should not be able to find an humanities/philosophy academic that disagrees with your unassailable statement.

Not that you care, but here is a small portion of what I tell my students:

"...when you write your own work, you need to keep in mind that your goal is to learn--and to stay within--our current epistemological boundaries. I'm going to put this as directly as I possibly can: [our text] outlines five foundational assumptions . . . . These are not something with which you get to disagree. Sure, you can personally disagree with them; but as a student in this discipline, you must accept them in order to produce any work that will count as knowledge. Just like current scientists have rejected much of 1950s science, current . . . . scholars have rejected [certain ideas]."

The boundaries of this discussion are not your discipline. No one cares what academics in your field set forth as truth. That's not the real world, that's your world. And if that's what you're doing, then this is why you can't identify with counter arguments nor convince anyone of your arguments. You've created your own mental box.

Except that's literally the subject of our current conversation.

But, to perhaps move us forward, do you have a list of the academic disciplines that get to have epistemologies and which ones don't? Put differently, what are the areas in which you would actually admit that someone can be an "expert?" And in what areas could you never make such an admission?

I don't shun expertise, I shun unassailable statements based on empirically un-provable issues. And it isn't literally the conversation...

Spiritual_Chaos · January 2020

Maybe a separate thread should be started for you two?

This has nothing to do with Andrew Yangs path to victory

mrussel1 · January 2020

Spiritual_Chaos said:

Maybe a seperate thread should be started for you two?

This has nothing to do with Andrew yangs surge.

Is Yang really surging?

mcgruff10 · January 2020

Spiritual_Chaos said:

Maybe a separate thread should be started for you two?

This has nothing to do with Andrew Yangs path to victory

Tell me about Yang Mr. Stockholm. I m genuinely intrigued.

ecdanc · January 2020

mrussel1 said:

show previous quotes

ecdanc said:

mrussel1 said:

ecdanc said:

mrussel1 said:

ecdanc said:

mrussel1 said:

ecdanc said:

mrussel1 said:

ecdanc said:

mrussel1 said:

ecdanc said:

mrussel1 said:

ecdanc said:

mrussel1 said:

ecdanc said:

mrussel1 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mrussel1 said:
Regarding your point, I think communism, as it were, could probably be fine in a small group of people. But in a nation state, it has utterly failed.

With communism there would not be a "state". So that is a contradiction on your part, or what you are talking about is not the idea of communism.

Again, the Soviet Union tried that. It didn't work. The planning came from Moscow and they treated the true Russians very differently than the Ukrainians, the Poles, etc. So the scourge of nationalism and ethnicity continued to drive Moscow.

You're not even correct at the most basic level, man. There are variants of communism. Some actually have a very strong, centralized state (e.g., the USSR); others do not (e.g., anarcho-communism).

No shit, but we're talking about Communism as practiced which is essentially Leninism. I've already said that as a philosophy Communism is interesting, but in practice, human nature corrupts it. You said "there's no such thing as human nature", and I said "fine then Communism is corrupt" because I'm not arguing dumb points. We have real live evidence of Communism in practice. We don't have to read books to see how it will go. The same is true for capitalism. On paper, laissez-faire capitalism looks all well and good, but it had serious flaws. This is how we've evolved to a market based economy, with certain government controls (read: regulations) with sprinkles of socialism (social security, medicare, medicaid, etc.).

I really don't think you know much about Soviet history....

I'll give it to you, your take on human nature makes me chuckle. I was just typing up some notes for my graduate students about the myth of human nature and how, in my class, they don't get to disagree with that position.

If anything, you've shown you are not open to disagreement, so I'm sure that extends to your classroom. It must be a very robust academic environment. You truly are tailored made for a communist state.

Are you the guy who thinks flat earthers should be treated respectfully in science classes?

Yet another ridiculous comparison. I'm not getting back into your belief that philosophical concepts are unassailable. That is just arrogance.

Is it more arrogant for me to say "the discipline in which I'm an expert has epistemological foundations (i.e., what counts as knowledge) just like science does?" Or for you to say "no it doesn't?"

1) Your refusal to be open to competing philosophical arguments is the arrogance. A satellite image of Earth is pretty unassailable.

2) You still have not provided a persuasive argument that Communism has succeeded for a nation.

1) You're really embracing the dismissal of entire academic disciplines. I'm used to it, but you don't get the high ground on accusations of arrogance if you're going to do that.

2) I haven't tried to.

Once more, you totally misrepresent a position. No one dismissed your position, nor did I say that there is absolutely human nature. You are the one that is dismissive of counter-arguments, going so far as doing so in your classroom. You are projecting your issues on us.

Because my discipline has rejected the notion of human nature. It wasn't my decision, no more than current scientists decided the earth is round. What's complicated about that?

I mean, you seem to imagine higher education as a space where all ideas (no matter how inane) should be treated equally.

So you're saying that the debate that has gone on for centuries is now solved and no longer open for discussion. You're saying that I could not find one academic who thinks that either there is human nature, or that is still a debatable topic, is that correct? Just want to be sure before I do a little digging on the topic.
Now, I know I can't find one true astrologist or geologist that argues the Earth is flat, so using your comparison as the jumping off point, I should not be able to find an humanities/philosophy academic that disagrees with your unassailable statement.

Not that you care, but here is a small portion of what I tell my students:

"...when you write your own work, you need to keep in mind that your goal is to learn--and to stay within--our current epistemological boundaries. I'm going to put this as directly as I possibly can: [our text] outlines five foundational assumptions . . . . These are not something with which you get to disagree. Sure, you can personally disagree with them; but as a student in this discipline, you must accept them in order to produce any work that will count as knowledge. Just like current scientists have rejected much of 1950s science, current . . . . scholars have rejected [certain ideas]."

The boundaries of this discussion are not your discipline. No one cares what academics in your field set forth as truth. That's not the real world, that's your world. And if that's what you're doing, then this is why you can't identify with counter arguments nor convince anyone of your arguments. You've created your own mental box.

Except that's literally the subject of our current conversation.

But, to perhaps move us forward, do you have a list of the academic disciplines that get to have epistemologies and which ones don't? Put differently, what are the areas in which you would actually admit that someone can be an "expert?" And in what areas could you never make such an admission?

I don't shun expertise, I shun unassailable statements based on empirically un-provable issues. And it isn't literally the conversation...

The statements aren't unassailable, but there are rules for how to....assail them. Rule 1) if you don't know why and how the statement has become accepted in a discipline, you don't get to assail it.

Spiritual_Chaos · January 2020

mrussel1 said:

show previous quotes

Spiritual_Chaos said:

Maybe a seperate thread should be started for you two?

This has nothing to do with Andrew yangs surge.

Is Yang really surging?

with your quoting me before my edits

cincybearcat · January 2020

mrussel1 said:

show previous quotes

ecdanc said:

mrussel1 said:

ecdanc said:

mrussel1 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mrussel1 said:
Regarding your point, I think communism, as it were, could probably be fine in a small group of people. But in a nation state, it has utterly failed.

With communism there would not be a "state". So that is a contradiction on your part, or what you are talking about is not the idea of communism.

Again, the Soviet Union tried that. It didn't work. The planning came from Moscow and they treated the true Russians very differently than the Ukrainians, the Poles, etc. So the scourge of nationalism and ethnicity continued to drive Moscow.

You're not even correct at the most basic level, man. There are variants of communism. Some actually have a very strong, centralized state (e.g., the USSR); others do not (e.g., anarcho-communism).

No shit, but we're talking about Communism as practiced which is essentially Leninism. I've already said that as a philosophy Communism is interesting, but in practice, human nature corrupts it. You said "there's no such thing as human nature", and I said "fine then Communism is corrupt" because I'm not arguing dumb points. We have real live evidence of Communism in practice. We don't have to read books to see how it will go. The same is true for capitalism. On paper, laissez-faire capitalism looks all well and good, but it had serious flaws. This is how we've evolved to a market based economy, with certain government controls (read: regulations) with sprinkles of socialism (social security, medicare, medicaid, etc.).

I really don't think you know much about Soviet history....

I'll give it to you, your take on human nature makes me chuckle. I was just typing up some notes for my graduate students about the myth of human nature and how, in my class, they don't get to disagree with that position.

If anything, you've shown you are not open to disagreement, so I'm sure that extends to your classroom. It must be a very robust academic environment. You truly are tailored made for a communist state.

Only if he is making the decisions. Which seems to be the case for most people that want a communist state.

mrussel1 · January 2020

ecdanc said:

show previous quotes

mrussel1 said:

ecdanc said:

mrussel1 said:

ecdanc said:

mrussel1 said:

ecdanc said:

mrussel1 said:

ecdanc said:

mrussel1 said:

ecdanc said:

mrussel1 said:

ecdanc said:

mrussel1 said:

ecdanc said:

mrussel1 said:

ecdanc said:

mrussel1 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mrussel1 said:
Regarding your point, I think communism, as it were, could probably be fine in a small group of people. But in a nation state, it has utterly failed.

With communism there would not be a "state". So that is a contradiction on your part, or what you are talking about is not the idea of communism.

Again, the Soviet Union tried that. It didn't work. The planning came from Moscow and they treated the true Russians very differently than the Ukrainians, the Poles, etc. So the scourge of nationalism and ethnicity continued to drive Moscow.

You're not even correct at the most basic level, man. There are variants of communism. Some actually have a very strong, centralized state (e.g., the USSR); others do not (e.g., anarcho-communism).

No shit, but we're talking about Communism as practiced which is essentially Leninism. I've already said that as a philosophy Communism is interesting, but in practice, human nature corrupts it. You said "there's no such thing as human nature", and I said "fine then Communism is corrupt" because I'm not arguing dumb points. We have real live evidence of Communism in practice. We don't have to read books to see how it will go. The same is true for capitalism. On paper, laissez-faire capitalism looks all well and good, but it had serious flaws. This is how we've evolved to a market based economy, with certain government controls (read: regulations) with sprinkles of socialism (social security, medicare, medicaid, etc.).

I really don't think you know much about Soviet history....

I'll give it to you, your take on human nature makes me chuckle. I was just typing up some notes for my graduate students about the myth of human nature and how, in my class, they don't get to disagree with that position.

If anything, you've shown you are not open to disagreement, so I'm sure that extends to your classroom. It must be a very robust academic environment. You truly are tailored made for a communist state.

Are you the guy who thinks flat earthers should be treated respectfully in science classes?

Yet another ridiculous comparison. I'm not getting back into your belief that philosophical concepts are unassailable. That is just arrogance.

Is it more arrogant for me to say "the discipline in which I'm an expert has epistemological foundations (i.e., what counts as knowledge) just like science does?" Or for you to say "no it doesn't?"

1) Your refusal to be open to competing philosophical arguments is the arrogance. A satellite image of Earth is pretty unassailable.

2) You still have not provided a persuasive argument that Communism has succeeded for a nation.

1) You're really embracing the dismissal of entire academic disciplines. I'm used to it, but you don't get the high ground on accusations of arrogance if you're going to do that.

2) I haven't tried to.

Once more, you totally misrepresent a position. No one dismissed your position, nor did I say that there is absolutely human nature. You are the one that is dismissive of counter-arguments, going so far as doing so in your classroom. You are projecting your issues on us.

Because my discipline has rejected the notion of human nature. It wasn't my decision, no more than current scientists decided the earth is round. What's complicated about that?

I mean, you seem to imagine higher education as a space where all ideas (no matter how inane) should be treated equally.

So you're saying that the debate that has gone on for centuries is now solved and no longer open for discussion. You're saying that I could not find one academic who thinks that either there is human nature, or that is still a debatable topic, is that correct? Just want to be sure before I do a little digging on the topic.
Now, I know I can't find one true astrologist or geologist that argues the Earth is flat, so using your comparison as the jumping off point, I should not be able to find an humanities/philosophy academic that disagrees with your unassailable statement.

Not that you care, but here is a small portion of what I tell my students:

"...when you write your own work, you need to keep in mind that your goal is to learn--and to stay within--our current epistemological boundaries. I'm going to put this as directly as I possibly can: [our text] outlines five foundational assumptions . . . . These are not something with which you get to disagree. Sure, you can personally disagree with them; but as a student in this discipline, you must accept them in order to produce any work that will count as knowledge. Just like current scientists have rejected much of 1950s science, current . . . . scholars have rejected [certain ideas]."

The boundaries of this discussion are not your discipline. No one cares what academics in your field set forth as truth. That's not the real world, that's your world. And if that's what you're doing, then this is why you can't identify with counter arguments nor convince anyone of your arguments. You've created your own mental box.

Except that's literally the subject of our current conversation.

But, to perhaps move us forward, do you have a list of the academic disciplines that get to have epistemologies and which ones don't? Put differently, what are the areas in which you would actually admit that someone can be an "expert?" And in what areas could you never make such an admission?

I don't shun expertise, I shun unassailable statements based on empirically un-provable issues. And it isn't literally the conversation...

The statements aren't unassailable, but there are rules for how to....assail them. Rule 1) if you don't know why and how the statement has become accepted in a discipline, you don't get to assail it.

So again, you are saying that I cannot find one philosopher who disagrees with your statement that human nature is a myth? It's a simple question.

Spiritual_Chaos · January 2020

So George Michael is a liar?

ecdanc · January 2020

cincybearcat said:

show previous quotes

mrussel1 said:

ecdanc said:

mrussel1 said:

ecdanc said:

mrussel1 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mrussel1 said:
Regarding your point, I think communism, as it were, could probably be fine in a small group of people. But in a nation state, it has utterly failed.

With communism there would not be a "state". So that is a contradiction on your part, or what you are talking about is not the idea of communism.

Again, the Soviet Union tried that. It didn't work. The planning came from Moscow and they treated the true Russians very differently than the Ukrainians, the Poles, etc. So the scourge of nationalism and ethnicity continued to drive Moscow.

You're not even correct at the most basic level, man. There are variants of communism. Some actually have a very strong, centralized state (e.g., the USSR); others do not (e.g., anarcho-communism).

No shit, but we're talking about Communism as practiced which is essentially Leninism. I've already said that as a philosophy Communism is interesting, but in practice, human nature corrupts it. You said "there's no such thing as human nature", and I said "fine then Communism is corrupt" because I'm not arguing dumb points. We have real live evidence of Communism in practice. We don't have to read books to see how it will go. The same is true for capitalism. On paper, laissez-faire capitalism looks all well and good, but it had serious flaws. This is how we've evolved to a market based economy, with certain government controls (read: regulations) with sprinkles of socialism (social security, medicare, medicaid, etc.).

I really don't think you know much about Soviet history....

I'll give it to you, your take on human nature makes me chuckle. I was just typing up some notes for my graduate students about the myth of human nature and how, in my class, they don't get to disagree with that position.

If anything, you've shown you are not open to disagreement, so I'm sure that extends to your classroom. It must be a very robust academic environment. You truly are tailored made for a communist state.

Only if he is making the decisions. Which seems to be the case for most people that want a communist state.

I wouldn't be the one making the decisions under communism:

"Since Marxism, the science of the proletarian revolution, is itself the supreme creation of middle-class intellectuals, and every Marxist party has had its quota of militants drawn from the radical intelligentsia, a Marxist party can, least of all political organizations, ignore the role that intellectuals may play in the struggle of the working class for emancipation. But the relationship between the radical intellectuals and the revolutionary workers’ party must be correctly understood. Although individual intellectuals may take a place in the leadership of the party by their talents, energy and devotion, intellectuals are generally an auxiliary force of the party with their own special talents to contribute to its work. There is a place for intellectuals inside the party, in the mass organizations it supports, and in many party activities. But the main body of the party must be recruited from, and rest squarely upon, the vanguard of the working class. The party and its leadership must have a solidly proletarian core."

https://www.marxists.org/archive/novack/1935/12/x01.htm

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