The Democratic Presidential Debates

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Comments

  • pjl44
    pjl44 Posts: 10,525
    Nevermind the fact that they're not sitting on vaults of cash like Scrooge McDuck. Much of that wealth is their businesses and other investments. You're not going to liquidate half of Amazon and pay for someone's bloated tuition. 
  • mrussel1
    mrussel1 Posts: 30,879
    ecdanc said:
    mrussel1 said:
    ecdanc said:
    PJPOWER said:
    PJPOWER said:
    If someone wants to live under a communist state, there are opportunities out there.  If you are waiting around for the US to fulfill your communist dreams, you are either ignorant or insincere about your commy desire, otherwise you would have moved to a communist state already...
    and fuck Communism 
    People being trigged by someone mentioning the word "communism"

    That 1950s McCarthyism to 1980s action movie indoctrination never fully goes away, does it.


    That’s a bit pretentious, but nothing new.
    It's pretentious to point out that the Cold War shaped entire generations' (distorted) views of communism? If ignorance is the alternative to pretension, I'll take the latter. 
    No, the economic failure shaped the view.  Communism had its chance.  It failed.  It subjected its people to abject poverty, oppression and murder.  The historical record is clear.  You are the ignorant one, pretending it didn't happen.  If it was so successful, why is it dead?  
    You should realize we don't disagree on a vital point here: capitalism HAS been "successful." I'm claiming that its "success" is predicated on horrible things happening to large numbers of people. Bubonic plague was pretty successful in the Middle Ages, but that doesn't mean I'm going to celebrate it. 
    Every single economic system has had substantial collateral damage to humans.  Communism, with the consolidation of power into a few, has shown itself to be both brutal AND ineffective.  
  • ecdanc
    ecdanc Posts: 1,814
    pjl44 said:
    ecdanc said:
    ecdanc said:
    ecdanc said:
    ecdanc said:
    ecdanc said:
    all you trying to nail down what’s enough and what’s ok for someone based on a number. You have no idea how anyone got there. It’s ducking sickening. 
    Don’t care how you got there. 
    I know. It’s weird what people care about. You just want to do whatever you want and take what you need from others to make up for your inabilities.
    No one needs 150k a year. Don’t be so selfish. 
    Selfish. That’s nice. I forgot though you are the communist that just wants other to pay for your everything. So it’s not a surprise. 

    Bet you bitch about Pearl Jam ticket prices too don’t you?
    Me and others—that’s how it works. 
    So how much $ are you contributing to society at the moment?  How much in taxes?  Donations? No bullshit. 
    Less than I should (definitely on the tax side of things). If you think "you're not perfect" is a winning comeback to "things should be different," this conversation isn't going to go anywhere.  
    No I just think a bullshit statement saying how much anyone should make is just that, bullshit.  And usually made by those that do a lot less.
    So you're ok with Jeff Bezos being worth over 100 billion dollars?
    I am. Even if you completely liquidated him tomorrow every American would get $286. People like to get all red-assed over millionaires and billionaires but the scale is such that looting them isn't really going to make a dent in anything. 
    You might want to do some basic research on the US wealth gap. 
  • ecdanc
    ecdanc Posts: 1,814
    PJPOWER said:
    ecdanc said:
    PJPOWER said:
    ecdanc said:
    PJPOWER said:
    PJPOWER said:
    If someone wants to live under a communist state, there are opportunities out there.  If you are waiting around for the US to fulfill your communist dreams, you are either ignorant or insincere about your commy desire, otherwise you would have moved to a communist state already...
    and fuck Communism 
    People being trigged by someone mentioning the word "communism"

    That 1950s McCarthyism to 1980s action movie indoctrination never fully goes away, does it.


    That’s a bit pretentious, but nothing new.
    It's pretentious to point out that the Cold War shaped entire generations' (distorted) views of communism? If ignorance is the alternative to pretension, I'll take the latter. 
    You seem to have plenty of both.
    Apologies, I'll strive for the educated and appropriately humble approach you deploy: fuck capitalism. Better? 
    Much.  You can say “fuck whatever” all you want and not upset me in the least professor.  It’s just when you pretentiously act like you know what you are talking about that irritates me and others around here.
    The internet: where simultaneously no one is an expert and everyone is an expert. 
  • ecdanc
    ecdanc Posts: 1,814
    pjl44 said:
    Nevermind the fact that they're not sitting on vaults of cash like Scrooge McDuck. Much of that wealth is their businesses and other investments. You're not going to liquidate half of Amazon and pay for someone's bloated tuition. 
    Watch me try. 
  • Spiritual_Chaos
    Spiritual_Chaos Posts: 31,465
    edited January 2020
    mrussel1 said:
    Regarding your point, I think communism, as it were, could probably be fine in a small group of people.  But in a nation state, it has utterly failed.  
    With communism there would not be a "state". So that is a contradiction on your part, or what you are talking about is not the ideology of communism.

    Post edited by Spiritual_Chaos on
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • ecdanc
    ecdanc Posts: 1,814
    mrussel1 said:
    ecdanc said:
    mrussel1 said:
    ecdanc said:
    PJPOWER said:
    PJPOWER said:
    If someone wants to live under a communist state, there are opportunities out there.  If you are waiting around for the US to fulfill your communist dreams, you are either ignorant or insincere about your commy desire, otherwise you would have moved to a communist state already...
    and fuck Communism 
    People being trigged by someone mentioning the word "communism"

    That 1950s McCarthyism to 1980s action movie indoctrination never fully goes away, does it.


    That’s a bit pretentious, but nothing new.
    It's pretentious to point out that the Cold War shaped entire generations' (distorted) views of communism? If ignorance is the alternative to pretension, I'll take the latter. 
    No, the economic failure shaped the view.  Communism had its chance.  It failed.  It subjected its people to abject poverty, oppression and murder.  The historical record is clear.  You are the ignorant one, pretending it didn't happen.  If it was so successful, why is it dead?  
    You should realize we don't disagree on a vital point here: capitalism HAS been "successful." I'm claiming that its "success" is predicated on horrible things happening to large numbers of people. Bubonic plague was pretty successful in the Middle Ages, but that doesn't mean I'm going to celebrate it. 
    Every single economic system has had substantial collateral damage to humans.  Communism, with the consolidation of power into a few, has shown itself to be both brutal AND ineffective.  
    Capitalism's effects are not "collateral damage"--its destructiveness is its very essence. 
  • mrussel1
    mrussel1 Posts: 30,879
    mrussel1 said:
    Regarding your point, I think communism, as it were, could probably be fine in a small group of people.  But in a nation state, it has utterly failed.  
    With communism there would not be a "state". So that is a contradiction on your part, or what you are talking about is not the idea of communism.
    Again, the Soviet Union tried that.  It didn't work.  The planning came from Moscow and they treated the true Russians very differently than the Ukrainians, the Poles, etc.  So the scourge of nationalism and ethnicity continued to drive Moscow.  
  • mrussel1
    mrussel1 Posts: 30,879
    ecdanc said:
    mrussel1 said:
    ecdanc said:
    mrussel1 said:
    ecdanc said:
    PJPOWER said:
    PJPOWER said:
    If someone wants to live under a communist state, there are opportunities out there.  If you are waiting around for the US to fulfill your communist dreams, you are either ignorant or insincere about your commy desire, otherwise you would have moved to a communist state already...
    and fuck Communism 
    People being trigged by someone mentioning the word "communism"

    That 1950s McCarthyism to 1980s action movie indoctrination never fully goes away, does it.


    That’s a bit pretentious, but nothing new.
    It's pretentious to point out that the Cold War shaped entire generations' (distorted) views of communism? If ignorance is the alternative to pretension, I'll take the latter. 
    No, the economic failure shaped the view.  Communism had its chance.  It failed.  It subjected its people to abject poverty, oppression and murder.  The historical record is clear.  You are the ignorant one, pretending it didn't happen.  If it was so successful, why is it dead?  
    You should realize we don't disagree on a vital point here: capitalism HAS been "successful." I'm claiming that its "success" is predicated on horrible things happening to large numbers of people. Bubonic plague was pretty successful in the Middle Ages, but that doesn't mean I'm going to celebrate it. 
    Every single economic system has had substantial collateral damage to humans.  Communism, with the consolidation of power into a few, has shown itself to be both brutal AND ineffective.  
    Capitalism's effects are not "collateral damage"--its destructiveness is its very essence. 
    Destruction of what?  Do you think the act of exploiting the resources of the weaker developed during the 17th century when market economies began?  I'm pretty sure the Romans, Greeks, Persions, Carthaginians, Egyptians and plenty of others ended up in the same place.  
  • pjl44
    pjl44 Posts: 10,525
    ecdanc said:
    pjl44 said:
    Nevermind the fact that they're not sitting on vaults of cash like Scrooge McDuck. Much of that wealth is their businesses and other investments. You're not going to liquidate half of Amazon and pay for someone's bloated tuition. 
    Watch me try. 

  • ecdanc
    ecdanc Posts: 1,814
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    Regarding your point, I think communism, as it were, could probably be fine in a small group of people.  But in a nation state, it has utterly failed.  
    With communism there would not be a "state". So that is a contradiction on your part, or what you are talking about is not the idea of communism.
    Again, the Soviet Union tried that.  It didn't work.  The planning came from Moscow and they treated the true Russians very differently than the Ukrainians, the Poles, etc.  So the scourge of nationalism and ethnicity continued to drive Moscow.  
    You're not even correct at the most basic level, man. There are variants of communism. Some actually have a very strong, centralized state (e.g., the USSR); others do not (e.g., anarcho-communism). 
  • PJPOWER
    PJPOWER Posts: 6,499
    ecdanc said:
    PJPOWER said:
    ecdanc said:
    PJPOWER said:
    ecdanc said:
    PJPOWER said:
    PJPOWER said:
    If someone wants to live under a communist state, there are opportunities out there.  If you are waiting around for the US to fulfill your communist dreams, you are either ignorant or insincere about your commy desire, otherwise you would have moved to a communist state already...
    and fuck Communism 
    People being trigged by someone mentioning the word "communism"

    That 1950s McCarthyism to 1980s action movie indoctrination never fully goes away, does it.


    That’s a bit pretentious, but nothing new.
    It's pretentious to point out that the Cold War shaped entire generations' (distorted) views of communism? If ignorance is the alternative to pretension, I'll take the latter. 
    You seem to have plenty of both.
    Apologies, I'll strive for the educated and appropriately humble approach you deploy: fuck capitalism. Better? 
    Much.  You can say “fuck whatever” all you want and not upset me in the least professor.  It’s just when you pretentiously act like you know what you are talking about that irritates me and others around here.
    The internet: where simultaneously no one is an expert and everyone is an expert. 
    You seem to like definitive words (no one, everyone).  Unusual for someone that claims to have philosophy knowledge. I usually avoid them, but that’s just me.
  • Lerxst1992
    Lerxst1992 Posts: 7,852
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    Regarding your point, I think communism, as it were, could probably be fine in a small group of people.  But in a nation state, it has utterly failed.  
    With communism there would not be a "state". So that is a contradiction on your part, or what you are talking about is not the idea of communism.
    Again, the Soviet Union tried that.  It didn't work.  The planning came from Moscow and they treated the true Russians very differently than the Ukrainians, the Poles, etc.  So the scourge of nationalism and ethnicity continued to drive Moscow.  

    Then why does it's current version basically run America if it didn't work?
  • Spiritual_Chaos
    Spiritual_Chaos Posts: 31,465
    edited January 2020
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    Regarding your point, I think communism, as it were, could probably be fine in a small group of people.  But in a nation state, it has utterly failed.  
    With communism there would not be a "state". So that is a contradiction on your part, or what you are talking about is not the idea of communism.
    Again, the Soviet Union tried that.  It didn't work.  The planning came from Moscow and they treated the true Russians very differently than the Ukrainians, the Poles, etc.  So the scourge of nationalism and ethnicity continued to drive Moscow.  
    When did Soviet Union try that?

    Labeling your dictatorship communist =/= the ideology of communism

    I would also argue your "HISTORY HAS PROVEN" is wrong, because you do not have enough cases to draw shit from. A handful of vile dictatorships during a very tiny window in history labeling themselves an ideology isn't proof of anything.

    And with that, i think you should engage in a discussion with ecdanc about ideas instead of having the closedminded Rocky 4-goggles on.
    Post edited by Spiritual_Chaos on
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • PJPOWER
    PJPOWER Posts: 6,499
    mrussel1 said:
    Regarding your point, I think communism, as it were, could probably be fine in a small group of people.  But in a nation state, it has utterly failed.  
    With communism there would not be a "state". So that is a contradiction on your part, or what you are talking about is not the ideology of communism.

    Maybe you should google “communist state”...
  • ecdanc
    ecdanc Posts: 1,814
    PJPOWER said:
    ecdanc said:
    PJPOWER said:
    ecdanc said:
    PJPOWER said:
    ecdanc said:
    PJPOWER said:
    PJPOWER said:
    If someone wants to live under a communist state, there are opportunities out there.  If you are waiting around for the US to fulfill your communist dreams, you are either ignorant or insincere about your commy desire, otherwise you would have moved to a communist state already...
    and fuck Communism 
    People being trigged by someone mentioning the word "communism"

    That 1950s McCarthyism to 1980s action movie indoctrination never fully goes away, does it.


    That’s a bit pretentious, but nothing new.
    It's pretentious to point out that the Cold War shaped entire generations' (distorted) views of communism? If ignorance is the alternative to pretension, I'll take the latter. 
    You seem to have plenty of both.
    Apologies, I'll strive for the educated and appropriately humble approach you deploy: fuck capitalism. Better? 
    Much.  You can say “fuck whatever” all you want and not upset me in the least professor.  It’s just when you pretentiously act like you know what you are talking about that irritates me and others around here.
    The internet: where simultaneously no one is an expert and everyone is an expert. 
    You seem to like definitive words (no one, everyone).  Unusual for someone that claims to have philosophy knowledge. I usually avoid them, but that’s just me.
    You seem to struggle with reading. 
  • mrussel1
    mrussel1 Posts: 30,879
    ecdanc said:
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    Regarding your point, I think communism, as it were, could probably be fine in a small group of people.  But in a nation state, it has utterly failed.  
    With communism there would not be a "state". So that is a contradiction on your part, or what you are talking about is not the idea of communism.
    Again, the Soviet Union tried that.  It didn't work.  The planning came from Moscow and they treated the true Russians very differently than the Ukrainians, the Poles, etc.  So the scourge of nationalism and ethnicity continued to drive Moscow.  
    You're not even correct at the most basic level, man. There are variants of communism. Some actually have a very strong, centralized state (e.g., the USSR); others do not (e.g., anarcho-communism). 
    No shit, but we're talking about Communism as practiced which is essentially Leninism.  I've already said that as a philosophy Communism is interesting, but in practice, human nature corrupts it.  You said "there's no such thing as human nature", and I said "fine then Communism is corrupt" because I'm not arguing dumb points.  We have real live evidence of Communism in practice.  We don't have to read books to see how it will go.  The same is true for capitalism.  On paper, laissez-faire capitalism looks all well and good, but it had serious flaws.  This is how we've evolved to a market based economy, with certain government controls (read: regulations) with sprinkles of socialism (social security, medicare, medicaid, etc.).
  • mrussel1
    mrussel1 Posts: 30,879
    And my point on capitalism is why I'm dead set against Objectivism, which is essentially on the other end of the spectrum from Communism/Leninism.  
  • ecdanc
    ecdanc Posts: 1,814
    mrussel1 said:
    ecdanc said:
    mrussel1 said:
    ecdanc said:
    mrussel1 said:
    ecdanc said:
    PJPOWER said:
    PJPOWER said:
    If someone wants to live under a communist state, there are opportunities out there.  If you are waiting around for the US to fulfill your communist dreams, you are either ignorant or insincere about your commy desire, otherwise you would have moved to a communist state already...
    and fuck Communism 
    People being trigged by someone mentioning the word "communism"

    That 1950s McCarthyism to 1980s action movie indoctrination never fully goes away, does it.


    That’s a bit pretentious, but nothing new.
    It's pretentious to point out that the Cold War shaped entire generations' (distorted) views of communism? If ignorance is the alternative to pretension, I'll take the latter. 
    No, the economic failure shaped the view.  Communism had its chance.  It failed.  It subjected its people to abject poverty, oppression and murder.  The historical record is clear.  You are the ignorant one, pretending it didn't happen.  If it was so successful, why is it dead?  
    You should realize we don't disagree on a vital point here: capitalism HAS been "successful." I'm claiming that its "success" is predicated on horrible things happening to large numbers of people. Bubonic plague was pretty successful in the Middle Ages, but that doesn't mean I'm going to celebrate it. 
    Every single economic system has had substantial collateral damage to humans.  Communism, with the consolidation of power into a few, has shown itself to be both brutal AND ineffective.  
    Capitalism's effects are not "collateral damage"--its destructiveness is its very essence. 
    Destruction of what?  Do you think the act of exploiting the resources of the weaker developed during the 17th century when market economies began?  I'm pretty sure the Romans, Greeks, Persions, Carthaginians, Egyptians and plenty of others ended up in the same place.  
    People. 

    Also "other things are bad" does not refute the claim "this is bad." 
  • PJPOWER
    PJPOWER Posts: 6,499
    edited January 2020
    ecdanc said:
    PJPOWER said:
    ecdanc said:
    PJPOWER said:
    ecdanc said:
    PJPOWER said:
    ecdanc said:
    PJPOWER said:
    PJPOWER said:
    If someone wants to live under a communist state, there are opportunities out there.  If you are waiting around for the US to fulfill your communist dreams, you are either ignorant or insincere about your commy desire, otherwise you would have moved to a communist state already...
    and fuck Communism 
    People being trigged by someone mentioning the word "communism"

    That 1950s McCarthyism to 1980s action movie indoctrination never fully goes away, does it.


    That’s a bit pretentious, but nothing new.
    It's pretentious to point out that the Cold War shaped entire generations' (distorted) views of communism? If ignorance is the alternative to pretension, I'll take the latter. 
    You seem to have plenty of both.
    Apologies, I'll strive for the educated and appropriately humble approach you deploy: fuck capitalism. Better? 
    Much.  You can say “fuck whatever” all you want and not upset me in the least professor.  It’s just when you pretentiously act like you know what you are talking about that irritates me and others around here.
    The internet: where simultaneously no one is an expert and everyone is an expert. 
    You seem to like definitive words (no one, everyone).  Unusual for someone that claims to have philosophy knowledge. I usually avoid them, but that’s just me.
    You seem to struggle with reading. 
    Care to offer an example where that is the case?  You seem to struggle with logic and reasoning...and reality.
This discussion has been closed.