All things Transgender related

mickeyrat
mickeyrat Posts: 45,305
in A Moving Train
seems to be a topic that deserves its own discussion.

Here ya go......
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Comments

  • ecdanc
    ecdanc Posts: 1,814
    An interesting read about the perhaps surprising source of anti-trans ideas:

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/identities/2019/9/5/20840101/terfs-radical-feminists-gender-critical
  • mrussel1
    mrussel1 Posts: 30,989
    It seems to me that anti trans feelings existed before feminists. 
  • ecdanc
    ecdanc Posts: 1,814
    mrussel1 said:
    It seems to me that anti trans feelings existed before feminists. 
    I should have included the word “recent” in that sentence. 
  • ecdanc
    ecdanc Posts: 1,814
    mrussel1 said:
    It seems to me that anti trans feelings existed before feminists. 
    You do (perhaps unintentionally) raise an interesting point. Michel Foucault argued that homosexual (as an identity category--as opposed to homosexuality as a category of activity) didn't come into existence until the Victorian period. So, in essence, he claims there was no such thing as "a homosexual" before that time. I wonder if anyone has done a similar discursive archaeology of "transgender" (i.e., transgender man or transgender woman)? From a certain perspective, anti-trans feelings cannot predate the appearance of "transgender ____" as an identity category. Thus, the gap toward which you gesture may be shorter than you think. 
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,804
    edited January 2020
    .
    Post edited by brianlux on
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • mrussel1
    mrussel1 Posts: 30,989
    ecdanc said:
    mrussel1 said:
    It seems to me that anti trans feelings existed before feminists. 
    You do (perhaps unintentionally) raise an interesting point. Michel Foucault argued that homosexual (as an identity category--as opposed to homosexuality as a category of activity) didn't come into existence until the Victorian period. So, in essence, he claims there was no such thing as "a homosexual" before that time. I wonder if anyone has done a similar discursive archaeology of "transgender" (i.e., transgender man or transgender woman)? From a certain perspective, anti-trans feelings cannot predate the appearance of "transgender ____" as an identity category. Thus, the gap toward which you gesture may be shorter than you think. 
    That may be.. perhaps because the activity was condemned in the Old Testament and punishable by death in many cultures, so I doubt many people were eager to attach that word to themselves, same with Trans which would be even more damning.  I'v never studied the etymology of the word myself.  
  • ecdanc
    ecdanc Posts: 1,814
    brianlux said:
    Two minutes into a new thread and it goes negative.  Hmmm.  I guess some people just need to be negative, negative, negative.

    Personally, I don't care what people want to be- straight, gay, bi, tri, transgender- whatever.  It's your body, nobody should have the right to say what you do with it.  What I don't understand is why people would go through medical procedures to alter their body- removing something, adding something.  Not that I don't think people should have the choice to do that- I just don't get it.  I guess it has something so do with me being a natural man.  I think being homosexual is natural.  I don't think having a penisectomy is.
    Who got negative? I mean, the end of your post is pretty offensive, but I didn’t see anything before that. 
  • ecdanc
    ecdanc Posts: 1,814
    mrussel1 said:
    ecdanc said:
    mrussel1 said:
    It seems to me that anti trans feelings existed before feminists. 
    You do (perhaps unintentionally) raise an interesting point. Michel Foucault argued that homosexual (as an identity category--as opposed to homosexuality as a category of activity) didn't come into existence until the Victorian period. So, in essence, he claims there was no such thing as "a homosexual" before that time. I wonder if anyone has done a similar discursive archaeology of "transgender" (i.e., transgender man or transgender woman)? From a certain perspective, anti-trans feelings cannot predate the appearance of "transgender ____" as an identity category. Thus, the gap toward which you gesture may be shorter than you think. 
    That may be.. perhaps because the activity was condemned in the Old Testament and punishable by death in many cultures, so I doubt many people were eager to attach that word to themselves, same with Trans which would be even more damning.  I'v never studied the etymology of the word myself.  
    I think it’s a little more than that. It was quite literally unthinkable to conceive of one’s self as as possessing these identities before the discourse produced them. 
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,804
    edited January 2020
    .
    Post edited by brianlux on
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • ecdanc
    ecdanc Posts: 1,814
    brianlux said:
    ecdanc said:
    brianlux said:
    Two minutes into a new thread and it goes negative.  Hmmm.  I guess some people just need to be negative, negative, negative.

    Personally, I don't care what people want to be- straight, gay, bi, tri, transgender- whatever.  It's your body, nobody should have the right to say what you do with it.  What I don't understand is why people would go through medical procedures to alter their body- removing something, adding something.  Not that I don't think people should have the choice to do that- I just don't get it.  I guess it has something so do with me being a natural man.  I think being homosexual is natural.  I don't think having a penisectomy is.
    Who got negative? I mean, the end of your post is pretty offensive, but I didn’t see anything before that. 

    Why do you categorize my personal feelings as offensive when all I said was how I personally see something?  I didn't say anything should be prohibited.  I have two friends who are transgender and going through physical changes.  I care a lot for these people and would stand up for them 100%.  I just don't understand what they are doing.  Sorry you're offended.
    Because of your use of the word “natural.”
  • hedonist
    hedonist Posts: 24,524
    Ah, so NOW it turned negative. Really, in reading through the first posts, all seemed fine. 

    Oh well. Looking forward to reading more of this thread...I guess ;)
  • ecdanc
    ecdanc Posts: 1,814
    hedonist said:
    Ah, so NOW it turned negative. Really, in reading through the first posts, all seemed fine. 

    Oh well. Looking forward to reading more of this thread...I guess ;)
    I know, right? First page and someone already implying that transitioning trans people are “unnatural.” Sheesh. 
  • hedonist
    hedonist Posts: 24,524
    Well, my feelings on that may differ from yours but I sure as shit won’t vilify you for them. 
  • hedonist
    hedonist Posts: 24,524
    Gah! My bottom line is typically: your life, your choices, your feelings...just leave the innocents, children and animals alone!

    I can adapt. 
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,804
    edited January 2020
    .
    Post edited by brianlux on
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • hedonist
    hedonist Posts: 24,524
    brianlux said:
    ^^^  Nobody vilified anyone... except maybe you as per the usual.
    Really? That’s unnecessary (to me, anyway). 

    Well, a happy Sunday to you. 
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,804
    edited January 2020
    .
    Post edited by brianlux on
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • gimmesometruth27
    gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 24,952
    read Laura Jane Grace's book. she goes in-depth about gender dysphoria and her transition. good read.
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • ecdanc
    ecdanc Posts: 1,814
    brianlux said:
    ecdanc said:
    brianlux said:
    ecdanc said:
    brianlux said:
    Two minutes into a new thread and it goes negative.  Hmmm.  I guess some people just need to be negative, negative, negative.

    Personally, I don't care what people want to be- straight, gay, bi, tri, transgender- whatever.  It's your body, nobody should have the right to say what you do with it.  What I don't understand is why people would go through medical procedures to alter their body- removing something, adding something.  Not that I don't think people should have the choice to do that- I just don't get it.  I guess it has something so do with me being a natural man.  I think being homosexual is natural.  I don't think having a penisectomy is.
    Who got negative? I mean, the end of your post is pretty offensive, but I didn’t see anything before that. 

    Why do you categorize my personal feelings as offensive when all I said was how I personally see something?  I didn't say anything should be prohibited.  I have two friends who are transgender and going through physical changes.  I care a lot for these people and would stand up for them 100%.  I just don't understand what they are doing.  Sorry you're offended.
    Because of your use of the word “natural.”

    Like I said, I think homosexuality is natural.  And it is.  But unless you are a wild animal with it's leg caught in a trap, removing a part of one's body is not natural.  That's just simple fact.  Can you deal with that?  Why would that be deemed offensive?
    Repeating yourself doesn’t make it less offensive. 
  • ecdanc
    ecdanc Posts: 1,814
    hedonist said:
    Well, my feelings on that may differ from yours but I sure as shit won’t vilify you for them. 
    Am I the vilifier or the vilified here?

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