All things Transgender related

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  • PJPOWERPJPOWER In Yo FacePosts: 5,368
    edited January 27
    I’m a lizard...just haven’t transitioned yet.  Anyone who calls me a human is a bigot that doesn’t understand shit.
    "At least I'm housebroken"
  • ecdancecdanc Posts: 1,557
    ecdanc said:
    I have a cousin who son has transitioned into a female...I was at a funeral and I thought she was his daughter...he has a daughter and son...now 2 daughters.  Al I can say is she was quite stunning.  No one would ever know she used to be a he...
    She is his daughter. 
    Dude you continue to go around and try to find fault with others.  Read it again.  He called her his daughter.  His first statement was going from the standpoint of what he knew before that...that the guy had a daughter and a son. 

    "now 2 daughters".... he was respectful.  No need to go around and try to catch people making small errors, especially when it's not even true.
    I don't know what to say to this other than...words matter. Privileging his former perspective over her current identity is a microaggression. No, it's not a hugely offensive statement, but it's not ideal either. His last sentence, on the other hand, is a little more problematic. 
    Pudding in and pudding in--don't feel like methadone. 
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 15,661
    edited January 27
    Woke gone wild... Save your ammo for aggression, not micro ones. 
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 13,448
    ecdanc said:
    ecdanc said:
    I have a cousin who son has transitioned into a female...I was at a funeral and I thought she was his daughter...he has a daughter and son...now 2 daughters.  Al I can say is she was quite stunning.  No one would ever know she used to be a he...
    She is his daughter. 
    Dude you continue to go around and try to find fault with others.  Read it again.  He called her his daughter.  His first statement was going from the standpoint of what he knew before that...that the guy had a daughter and a son. 

    "now 2 daughters".... he was respectful.  No need to go around and try to catch people making small errors, especially when it's not even true.
    I don't know what to say to this other than...words matter. Privileging his former perspective over her current identity is a microaggression. No, it's not a hugely offensive statement, but it's not ideal either. His last sentence, on the other hand, is a little more problematic. 
    Right and I'm saying read the words, cause you were so ready to blast someone for not using the right word you didn't bother to see he already did. And you didn't stop to see what he was saying in the context he was saying it.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin LouisPosts: 16,668
    PC Principal is going to stifle discussion on this topic, so i'm out.
    "There is nothing to writing. All you do is sit down at a typewriter and bleed."- Hemingway

    "i'm not here to start the fire. i am here to fan the flames..."

    If you have never failed, you have never lived.
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 13,448
    PC Principal is going to stifle discussion on this topic, so i'm out.
    Honestly I would love to have some open discussions on this.  I feel like a supporter, but I know there are parts of the issue I do not understand and likely do not talk about correctly.  I always find it disheartening when people trying to get people to understand thinks they already should understand 100%.  
    hippiemom = goodness
  • ecdancecdanc Posts: 1,557
    PC Principal is going to stifle discussion on this topic, so i'm out.
    Honestly I would love to have some open discussions on this.  I feel like a supporter, but I know there are parts of the issue I do not understand and likely do not talk about correctly.  I always find it disheartening when people trying to get people to understand thinks they already should understand 100%.  
    Do you really want to understand? I literally JUST explained to you why his comments troubled me. I did not blast him at all; I corrected him. I'm happy to explain in more detail why what he said is problematic, but I don't think you want to hear. 
    Pudding in and pudding in--don't feel like methadone. 
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 13,448
    ecdanc said:
    PC Principal is going to stifle discussion on this topic, so i'm out.
    Honestly I would love to have some open discussions on this.  I feel like a supporter, but I know there are parts of the issue I do not understand and likely do not talk about correctly.  I always find it disheartening when people trying to get people to understand thinks they already should understand 100%.  
    Do you really want to understand? I literally JUST explained to you why his comments troubled me. I did not blast him at all; I corrected him. I'm happy to explain in more detail why what he said is problematic, but I don't think you want to hear. 
    I don't need you to help me on that one I got it.  He called the women his daughter.  You nitpicked a sentence where he wasn't saying what you think he was saying.  You aren't a help in this discussion it seems.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • ecdancecdanc Posts: 1,557
    ecdanc said:
    PC Principal is going to stifle discussion on this topic, so i'm out.
    Honestly I would love to have some open discussions on this.  I feel like a supporter, but I know there are parts of the issue I do not understand and likely do not talk about correctly.  I always find it disheartening when people trying to get people to understand thinks they already should understand 100%.  
    Do you really want to understand? I literally JUST explained to you why his comments troubled me. I did not blast him at all; I corrected him. I'm happy to explain in more detail why what he said is problematic, but I don't think you want to hear. 
    I don't need you to help me on that one I got it.  He called the women his daughter.  You nitpicked a sentence where he wasn't saying what you think he was saying.  You aren't a help in this discussion it seems.
    See, this is the thing: your default position is "I already know this." That's not the sign of someone who wants to learn. 
    Pudding in and pudding in--don't feel like methadone. 
  • ecdancecdanc Posts: 1,557
    ecdanc said:
    ecdanc said:
    PC Principal is going to stifle discussion on this topic, so i'm out.
    Honestly I would love to have some open discussions on this.  I feel like a supporter, but I know there are parts of the issue I do not understand and likely do not talk about correctly.  I always find it disheartening when people trying to get people to understand thinks they already should understand 100%.  
    Do you really want to understand? I literally JUST explained to you why his comments troubled me. I did not blast him at all; I corrected him. I'm happy to explain in more detail why what he said is problematic, but I don't think you want to hear. 
    I don't need you to help me on that one I got it.  He called the women his daughter.  You nitpicked a sentence where he wasn't saying what you think he was saying.  You aren't a help in this discussion it seems.
    See, this is the thing: your default position is "I already know this." That's not the sign of someone who wants to learn. 
    At the risk of beating a dead horse (a VERY dead horse at this point), "open discussions" are very difficult to have until we can at very least stop framing things in ways that--unintentional as it may be--belittle the marginalized group under discussion. Without reaching that point, we're asking the marginalized group to perpetually "be the bigger person," as they try to educate others about things that are often academic exercises to the purported learners, while being daily struggles for the teachers. 
    Pudding in and pudding in--don't feel like methadone. 
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon In My PlacePosts: 20,681
    ecdanc said:
    ecdanc said:
    ecdanc said:
    PC Principal is going to stifle discussion on this topic, so i'm out.
    Honestly I would love to have some open discussions on this.  I feel like a supporter, but I know there are parts of the issue I do not understand and likely do not talk about correctly.  I always find it disheartening when people trying to get people to understand thinks they already should understand 100%.  
    Do you really want to understand? I literally JUST explained to you why his comments troubled me. I did not blast him at all; I corrected him. I'm happy to explain in more detail why what he said is problematic, but I don't think you want to hear. 
    I don't need you to help me on that one I got it.  He called the women his daughter.  You nitpicked a sentence where he wasn't saying what you think he was saying.  You aren't a help in this discussion it seems.
    See, this is the thing: your default position is "I already know this." That's not the sign of someone who wants to learn. 
    At the risk of beating a dead horse (a VERY dead horse at this point), "open discussions" are very difficult to have until we can at very least stop framing things in ways that--unintentional as it may be--belittle the marginalized group under discussion. Without reaching that point, we're asking the marginalized group to perpetually "be the bigger person," as they try to educate others about things that are often academic exercises to the purported learners, while being daily struggles for the teachers. 
    unfortunately until we know the ins and outs, we are not always cognizant that we are belittling anything. I personally don't like teachers that are this arrogant. I like people to just say "you know, that's not the preferred term, this is and here's why", instead of "stop saying that, BIGOT". 
    1993 - Gimli, MB (Sun/Mudfest)
    2003 - Fargo, ND
    2005 - Winnipeg, MB
    2011 - Minneapolis, MN (EV)
    2011 - Winnipeg, MB
    2014 - St. Paul, MN
    2020 - Ottawa, ON
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon In My PlacePosts: 20,681
    this reminds me a lot of having an honest conversation with someone who is a devout christian. many times, you ask a simple question, they get all offended thinking you are making fun of them, when all you want is a straight answer. it's irritating and turns people off from wanting to be an ally or even just understanding their position. 
    1993 - Gimli, MB (Sun/Mudfest)
    2003 - Fargo, ND
    2005 - Winnipeg, MB
    2011 - Minneapolis, MN (EV)
    2011 - Winnipeg, MB
    2014 - St. Paul, MN
    2020 - Ottawa, ON
  • ecdancecdanc Posts: 1,557
    ecdanc said:
    ecdanc said:
    ecdanc said:
    PC Principal is going to stifle discussion on this topic, so i'm out.
    Honestly I would love to have some open discussions on this.  I feel like a supporter, but I know there are parts of the issue I do not understand and likely do not talk about correctly.  I always find it disheartening when people trying to get people to understand thinks they already should understand 100%.  
    Do you really want to understand? I literally JUST explained to you why his comments troubled me. I did not blast him at all; I corrected him. I'm happy to explain in more detail why what he said is problematic, but I don't think you want to hear. 
    I don't need you to help me on that one I got it.  He called the women his daughter.  You nitpicked a sentence where he wasn't saying what you think he was saying.  You aren't a help in this discussion it seems.
    See, this is the thing: your default position is "I already know this." That's not the sign of someone who wants to learn. 
    At the risk of beating a dead horse (a VERY dead horse at this point), "open discussions" are very difficult to have until we can at very least stop framing things in ways that--unintentional as it may be--belittle the marginalized group under discussion. Without reaching that point, we're asking the marginalized group to perpetually "be the bigger person," as they try to educate others about things that are often academic exercises to the purported learners, while being daily struggles for the teachers. 
    unfortunately until we know the ins and outs, we are not always cognizant that we are belittling anything. I personally don't like teachers that are this arrogant. I like people to just say "you know, that's not the preferred term, this is and here's why", instead of "stop saying that, BIGOT". 
    The only time I called someone a bigot (for which I apologized), is when the person was being intentionally provocative. 
    Pudding in and pudding in--don't feel like methadone. 
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon In My PlacePosts: 20,681
    ecdanc said:
    ecdanc said:
    ecdanc said:
    ecdanc said:
    PC Principal is going to stifle discussion on this topic, so i'm out.
    Honestly I would love to have some open discussions on this.  I feel like a supporter, but I know there are parts of the issue I do not understand and likely do not talk about correctly.  I always find it disheartening when people trying to get people to understand thinks they already should understand 100%.  
    Do you really want to understand? I literally JUST explained to you why his comments troubled me. I did not blast him at all; I corrected him. I'm happy to explain in more detail why what he said is problematic, but I don't think you want to hear. 
    I don't need you to help me on that one I got it.  He called the women his daughter.  You nitpicked a sentence where he wasn't saying what you think he was saying.  You aren't a help in this discussion it seems.
    See, this is the thing: your default position is "I already know this." That's not the sign of someone who wants to learn. 
    At the risk of beating a dead horse (a VERY dead horse at this point), "open discussions" are very difficult to have until we can at very least stop framing things in ways that--unintentional as it may be--belittle the marginalized group under discussion. Without reaching that point, we're asking the marginalized group to perpetually "be the bigger person," as they try to educate others about things that are often academic exercises to the purported learners, while being daily struggles for the teachers. 
    unfortunately until we know the ins and outs, we are not always cognizant that we are belittling anything. I personally don't like teachers that are this arrogant. I like people to just say "you know, that's not the preferred term, this is and here's why", instead of "stop saying that, BIGOT". 
    The only time I called someone a bigot (for which I apologized), is when the person was being intentionally provocative. 
    fair enough, maybe not that harsh, but you come off quite abrasively even when people are trying to be respectful. I saw nothing wrong with how meltdown said it. if it is wrong, fine, respectfully correct. 
    1993 - Gimli, MB (Sun/Mudfest)
    2003 - Fargo, ND
    2005 - Winnipeg, MB
    2011 - Minneapolis, MN (EV)
    2011 - Winnipeg, MB
    2014 - St. Paul, MN
    2020 - Ottawa, ON
  • ecdancecdanc Posts: 1,557
    this reminds me a lot of having an honest conversation with someone who is a devout christian. many times, you ask a simple question, they get all offended thinking you are making fun of them, when all you want is a straight answer. it's irritating and turns people off from wanting to be an ally or even just understanding their position. 
    See, the framing here is a little worrisome to me. The only thing to "understand" about transgender people/identity/rights is how not to dehumanize them, how to ensure their rights, how to support them. Anything beyond that is not a genuine effort to understand--it's an entree to judge and diminish. This isn't some anthropological exercise; it's real people facing real shit. So, frankly, being irritated and turned off probably says more about the learner than the teacher (in those instances). 
    Pudding in and pudding in--don't feel like methadone. 
  • ecdancecdanc Posts: 1,557
    ecdanc said:
    ecdanc said:
    ecdanc said:
    ecdanc said:
    PC Principal is going to stifle discussion on this topic, so i'm out.
    Honestly I would love to have some open discussions on this.  I feel like a supporter, but I know there are parts of the issue I do not understand and likely do not talk about correctly.  I always find it disheartening when people trying to get people to understand thinks they already should understand 100%.  
    Do you really want to understand? I literally JUST explained to you why his comments troubled me. I did not blast him at all; I corrected him. I'm happy to explain in more detail why what he said is problematic, but I don't think you want to hear. 
    I don't need you to help me on that one I got it.  He called the women his daughter.  You nitpicked a sentence where he wasn't saying what you think he was saying.  You aren't a help in this discussion it seems.
    See, this is the thing: your default position is "I already know this." That's not the sign of someone who wants to learn. 
    At the risk of beating a dead horse (a VERY dead horse at this point), "open discussions" are very difficult to have until we can at very least stop framing things in ways that--unintentional as it may be--belittle the marginalized group under discussion. Without reaching that point, we're asking the marginalized group to perpetually "be the bigger person," as they try to educate others about things that are often academic exercises to the purported learners, while being daily struggles for the teachers. 
    unfortunately until we know the ins and outs, we are not always cognizant that we are belittling anything. I personally don't like teachers that are this arrogant. I like people to just say "you know, that's not the preferred term, this is and here's why", instead of "stop saying that, BIGOT". 
    The only time I called someone a bigot (for which I apologized), is when the person was being intentionally provocative. 
    fair enough, maybe not that harsh, but you come off quite abrasively even when people are trying to be respectful. I saw nothing wrong with how meltdown said it. if it is wrong, fine, respectfully correct. 
    I get that. I am working on tone. 
    Pudding in and pudding in--don't feel like methadone. 
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon In My PlacePosts: 20,681
    ecdanc said:
    this reminds me a lot of having an honest conversation with someone who is a devout christian. many times, you ask a simple question, they get all offended thinking you are making fun of them, when all you want is a straight answer. it's irritating and turns people off from wanting to be an ally or even just understanding their position. 
    See, the framing here is a little worrisome to me. The only thing to "understand" about transgender people/identity/rights is how not to dehumanize them, how to ensure their rights, how to support them. Anything beyond that is not a genuine effort to understand--it's an entree to judge and diminish. This isn't some anthropological exercise; it's real people facing real shit. So, frankly, being irritated and turned off probably says more about the learner than the teacher (in those instances). 
    yes, but as someone who isn't trans, I don't personally know that saying they "were a man" or "used to be a woman" is in any way dehumanizing. seriously, coming from an ignorant place, how the fuck would anyone know that's dehumanizing until we're told? it sounds factual to me. now, if someone were to tell me, "trans people don't identify is being a woman in a prior life because they always felt like a man inside", then I'm "oh, ok, I didn't realize that, I wont' say that again". 

    is it really that difficult to have that type of conversation instead of coming from a place of moral superiority?
    1993 - Gimli, MB (Sun/Mudfest)
    2003 - Fargo, ND
    2005 - Winnipeg, MB
    2011 - Minneapolis, MN (EV)
    2011 - Winnipeg, MB
    2014 - St. Paul, MN
    2020 - Ottawa, ON
  • ecdancecdanc Posts: 1,557
    ecdanc said:
    this reminds me a lot of having an honest conversation with someone who is a devout christian. many times, you ask a simple question, they get all offended thinking you are making fun of them, when all you want is a straight answer. it's irritating and turns people off from wanting to be an ally or even just understanding their position. 
    See, the framing here is a little worrisome to me. The only thing to "understand" about transgender people/identity/rights is how not to dehumanize them, how to ensure their rights, how to support them. Anything beyond that is not a genuine effort to understand--it's an entree to judge and diminish. This isn't some anthropological exercise; it's real people facing real shit. So, frankly, being irritated and turned off probably says more about the learner than the teacher (in those instances). 
    yes, but as someone who isn't trans, I don't personally know that saying they "were a man" or "used to be a woman" is in any way dehumanizing. seriously, coming from an ignorant place, how the fuck would anyone know that's dehumanizing until we're told? it sounds factual to me. now, if someone were to tell me, "trans people don't identify is being a woman in a prior life because they always felt like a man inside", then I'm "oh, ok, I didn't realize that, I wont' say that again". 

    is it really that difficult to have that type of conversation instead of coming from a place of moral superiority?
    I get where you're coming from and, again...my tone isn't always great...but what you're describing is ignorance. I don't mean that in an insulting way, but in the literal dictionary definition. Basically all marginalized people bear the brunt of others' lack of knowledge all the damn time. So, it's a tricky thing: whose responsibility is it to educate others about trans people? 
    Pudding in and pudding in--don't feel like methadone. 
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 15,661
    ecdanc said:
    this reminds me a lot of having an honest conversation with someone who is a devout christian. many times, you ask a simple question, they get all offended thinking you are making fun of them, when all you want is a straight answer. it's irritating and turns people off from wanting to be an ally or even just understanding their position. 
    See, the framing here is a little worrisome to me. The only thing to "understand" about transgender people/identity/rights is how not to dehumanize them, how to ensure their rights, how to support them. Anything beyond that is not a genuine effort to understand--it's an entree to judge and diminish. This isn't some anthropological exercise; it's real people facing real shit. So, frankly, being irritated and turned off probably says more about the learner than the teacher (in those instances). 
    yes, but as someone who isn't trans, I don't personally know that saying they "were a man" or "used to be a woman" is in any way dehumanizing. seriously, coming from an ignorant place, how the fuck would anyone know that's dehumanizing until we're told? it sounds factual to me. now, if someone were to tell me, "trans people don't identify is being a woman in a prior life because they always felt like a man inside", then I'm "oh, ok, I didn't realize that, I wont' say that again". 

    is it really that difficult to have that type of conversation instead of coming from a place of moral superiority?
    Here's the other thing.. most of us don't interact with trans people regularly. We don't know the appropriate language because it's just not something that we've encountered regularly.  I've known exactly one person.  She was on one of my teams back in 2001.  Only on there for a year.  I saw somewhere that the population is less than 1%.  That's very different than gay and lesbian who most of us have interacted with for years, consistently.  And understanding things from their view was probably a journey over time as well, not something where we knew the appropriate vs inappropriate language day one.  
  • ecdancecdanc Posts: 1,557
    ecdanc said:
    ecdanc said:
    this reminds me a lot of having an honest conversation with someone who is a devout christian. many times, you ask a simple question, they get all offended thinking you are making fun of them, when all you want is a straight answer. it's irritating and turns people off from wanting to be an ally or even just understanding their position. 
    See, the framing here is a little worrisome to me. The only thing to "understand" about transgender people/identity/rights is how not to dehumanize them, how to ensure their rights, how to support them. Anything beyond that is not a genuine effort to understand--it's an entree to judge and diminish. This isn't some anthropological exercise; it's real people facing real shit. So, frankly, being irritated and turned off probably says more about the learner than the teacher (in those instances). 
    yes, but as someone who isn't trans, I don't personally know that saying they "were a man" or "used to be a woman" is in any way dehumanizing. seriously, coming from an ignorant place, how the fuck would anyone know that's dehumanizing until we're told? it sounds factual to me. now, if someone were to tell me, "trans people don't identify is being a woman in a prior life because they always felt like a man inside", then I'm "oh, ok, I didn't realize that, I wont' say that again". 

    is it really that difficult to have that type of conversation instead of coming from a place of moral superiority?
    I get where you're coming from and, again...my tone isn't always great...but what you're describing is ignorance. I don't mean that in an insulting way, but in the literal dictionary definition. Basically all marginalized people bear the brunt of others' lack of knowledge all the damn time. So, it's a tricky thing: whose responsibility is it to educate others about trans people? 
    I should add that I, personally, tend to fall on the side of self-education: it's each person's responsibility to inform themselves so they're not unwittingly demeaning others. I know not everyone will do that, but that's my dream world. 

    If you're serious in your curiosity, here's a source for some initial reading: https://www.glaad.org/reference
    Pudding in and pudding in--don't feel like methadone. 
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon In My PlacePosts: 20,681
    ecdanc said:
    ecdanc said:
    this reminds me a lot of having an honest conversation with someone who is a devout christian. many times, you ask a simple question, they get all offended thinking you are making fun of them, when all you want is a straight answer. it's irritating and turns people off from wanting to be an ally or even just understanding their position. 
    See, the framing here is a little worrisome to me. The only thing to "understand" about transgender people/identity/rights is how not to dehumanize them, how to ensure their rights, how to support them. Anything beyond that is not a genuine effort to understand--it's an entree to judge and diminish. This isn't some anthropological exercise; it's real people facing real shit. So, frankly, being irritated and turned off probably says more about the learner than the teacher (in those instances). 
    yes, but as someone who isn't trans, I don't personally know that saying they "were a man" or "used to be a woman" is in any way dehumanizing. seriously, coming from an ignorant place, how the fuck would anyone know that's dehumanizing until we're told? it sounds factual to me. now, if someone were to tell me, "trans people don't identify is being a woman in a prior life because they always felt like a man inside", then I'm "oh, ok, I didn't realize that, I wont' say that again". 

    is it really that difficult to have that type of conversation instead of coming from a place of moral superiority?
    I get where you're coming from and, again...my tone isn't always great...but what you're describing is ignorance. I don't mean that in an insulting way, but in the literal dictionary definition. Basically all marginalized people bear the brunt of others' lack of knowledge all the damn time. So, it's a tricky thing: whose responsibility is it to educate others about trans people? 
    I didn't just describe it as ignorance. I damn well said the word. I fully acknowledge when I'm ignorant on a subject, and this is one of those subjects. 

    it's the trans community's responsibility to educate others. and if you wish to present yourself as an advocate, also yours.

    it's my responsibility as a decent person to listen. 
    1993 - Gimli, MB (Sun/Mudfest)
    2003 - Fargo, ND
    2005 - Winnipeg, MB
    2011 - Minneapolis, MN (EV)
    2011 - Winnipeg, MB
    2014 - St. Paul, MN
    2020 - Ottawa, ON
  • ecdancecdanc Posts: 1,557
    ecdanc said:
    ecdanc said:
    this reminds me a lot of having an honest conversation with someone who is a devout christian. many times, you ask a simple question, they get all offended thinking you are making fun of them, when all you want is a straight answer. it's irritating and turns people off from wanting to be an ally or even just understanding their position. 
    See, the framing here is a little worrisome to me. The only thing to "understand" about transgender people/identity/rights is how not to dehumanize them, how to ensure their rights, how to support them. Anything beyond that is not a genuine effort to understand--it's an entree to judge and diminish. This isn't some anthropological exercise; it's real people facing real shit. So, frankly, being irritated and turned off probably says more about the learner than the teacher (in those instances). 
    yes, but as someone who isn't trans, I don't personally know that saying they "were a man" or "used to be a woman" is in any way dehumanizing. seriously, coming from an ignorant place, how the fuck would anyone know that's dehumanizing until we're told? it sounds factual to me. now, if someone were to tell me, "trans people don't identify is being a woman in a prior life because they always felt like a man inside", then I'm "oh, ok, I didn't realize that, I wont' say that again". 

    is it really that difficult to have that type of conversation instead of coming from a place of moral superiority?
    I get where you're coming from and, again...my tone isn't always great...but what you're describing is ignorance. I don't mean that in an insulting way, but in the literal dictionary definition. Basically all marginalized people bear the brunt of others' lack of knowledge all the damn time. So, it's a tricky thing: whose responsibility is it to educate others about trans people? 
    I didn't just describe it as ignorance. I damn well said the word. I fully acknowledge when I'm ignorant on a subject, and this is one of those subjects. 

    it's the trans community's responsibility to educate others. and if you wish to present yourself as an advocate, also yours.

    it's my responsibility as a decent person to listen. 
    See, this is where we disagree. Why do you think it is their responsibility to correct your ignorance?
    Pudding in and pudding in--don't feel like methadone. 
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon In My PlacePosts: 20,681
    ecdanc said:
    ecdanc said:
    ecdanc said:
    this reminds me a lot of having an honest conversation with someone who is a devout christian. many times, you ask a simple question, they get all offended thinking you are making fun of them, when all you want is a straight answer. it's irritating and turns people off from wanting to be an ally or even just understanding their position. 
    See, the framing here is a little worrisome to me. The only thing to "understand" about transgender people/identity/rights is how not to dehumanize them, how to ensure their rights, how to support them. Anything beyond that is not a genuine effort to understand--it's an entree to judge and diminish. This isn't some anthropological exercise; it's real people facing real shit. So, frankly, being irritated and turned off probably says more about the learner than the teacher (in those instances). 
    yes, but as someone who isn't trans, I don't personally know that saying they "were a man" or "used to be a woman" is in any way dehumanizing. seriously, coming from an ignorant place, how the fuck would anyone know that's dehumanizing until we're told? it sounds factual to me. now, if someone were to tell me, "trans people don't identify is being a woman in a prior life because they always felt like a man inside", then I'm "oh, ok, I didn't realize that, I wont' say that again". 

    is it really that difficult to have that type of conversation instead of coming from a place of moral superiority?
    I get where you're coming from and, again...my tone isn't always great...but what you're describing is ignorance. I don't mean that in an insulting way, but in the literal dictionary definition. Basically all marginalized people bear the brunt of others' lack of knowledge all the damn time. So, it's a tricky thing: whose responsibility is it to educate others about trans people? 
    I didn't just describe it as ignorance. I damn well said the word. I fully acknowledge when I'm ignorant on a subject, and this is one of those subjects. 

    it's the trans community's responsibility to educate others. and if you wish to present yourself as an advocate, also yours.

    it's my responsibility as a decent person to listen. 
    See, this is where we disagree. Why do you think it is their responsibility to correct your ignorance?
    if it is your expectation that people will research on their own a lifestyle that doesn't affect them personally, you are going to be woefully disappointed in the result. 
    1993 - Gimli, MB (Sun/Mudfest)
    2003 - Fargo, ND
    2005 - Winnipeg, MB
    2011 - Minneapolis, MN (EV)
    2011 - Winnipeg, MB
    2014 - St. Paul, MN
    2020 - Ottawa, ON
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 15,661
    ecdanc said:
    ecdanc said:
    ecdanc said:
    this reminds me a lot of having an honest conversation with someone who is a devout christian. many times, you ask a simple question, they get all offended thinking you are making fun of them, when all you want is a straight answer. it's irritating and turns people off from wanting to be an ally or even just understanding their position. 
    See, the framing here is a little worrisome to me. The only thing to "understand" about transgender people/identity/rights is how not to dehumanize them, how to ensure their rights, how to support them. Anything beyond that is not a genuine effort to understand--it's an entree to judge and diminish. This isn't some anthropological exercise; it's real people facing real shit. So, frankly, being irritated and turned off probably says more about the learner than the teacher (in those instances). 
    yes, but as someone who isn't trans, I don't personally know that saying they "were a man" or "used to be a woman" is in any way dehumanizing. seriously, coming from an ignorant place, how the fuck would anyone know that's dehumanizing until we're told? it sounds factual to me. now, if someone were to tell me, "trans people don't identify is being a woman in a prior life because they always felt like a man inside", then I'm "oh, ok, I didn't realize that, I wont' say that again". 

    is it really that difficult to have that type of conversation instead of coming from a place of moral superiority?
    I get where you're coming from and, again...my tone isn't always great...but what you're describing is ignorance. I don't mean that in an insulting way, but in the literal dictionary definition. Basically all marginalized people bear the brunt of others' lack of knowledge all the damn time. So, it's a tricky thing: whose responsibility is it to educate others about trans people? 
    I didn't just describe it as ignorance. I damn well said the word. I fully acknowledge when I'm ignorant on a subject, and this is one of those subjects. 

    it's the trans community's responsibility to educate others. and if you wish to present yourself as an advocate, also yours.

    it's my responsibility as a decent person to listen. 
    See, this is where we disagree. Why do you think it is their responsibility to correct your ignorance?
    Because they represent .6% of the population, so most of us have little to no interaction.  How are we to learn?
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 16,935
    Who here is trans?
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • ecdancecdanc Posts: 1,557
    mrussel1 said:
    ecdanc said:
    ecdanc said:
    ecdanc said:
    this reminds me a lot of having an honest conversation with someone who is a devout christian. many times, you ask a simple question, they get all offended thinking you are making fun of them, when all you want is a straight answer. it's irritating and turns people off from wanting to be an ally or even just understanding their position. 
    See, the framing here is a little worrisome to me. The only thing to "understand" about transgender people/identity/rights is how not to dehumanize them, how to ensure their rights, how to support them. Anything beyond that is not a genuine effort to understand--it's an entree to judge and diminish. This isn't some anthropological exercise; it's real people facing real shit. So, frankly, being irritated and turned off probably says more about the learner than the teacher (in those instances). 
    yes, but as someone who isn't trans, I don't personally know that saying they "were a man" or "used to be a woman" is in any way dehumanizing. seriously, coming from an ignorant place, how the fuck would anyone know that's dehumanizing until we're told? it sounds factual to me. now, if someone were to tell me, "trans people don't identify is being a woman in a prior life because they always felt like a man inside", then I'm "oh, ok, I didn't realize that, I wont' say that again". 

    is it really that difficult to have that type of conversation instead of coming from a place of moral superiority?
    I get where you're coming from and, again...my tone isn't always great...but what you're describing is ignorance. I don't mean that in an insulting way, but in the literal dictionary definition. Basically all marginalized people bear the brunt of others' lack of knowledge all the damn time. So, it's a tricky thing: whose responsibility is it to educate others about trans people? 
    I didn't just describe it as ignorance. I damn well said the word. I fully acknowledge when I'm ignorant on a subject, and this is one of those subjects. 

    it's the trans community's responsibility to educate others. and if you wish to present yourself as an advocate, also yours.

    it's my responsibility as a decent person to listen. 
    See, this is where we disagree. Why do you think it is their responsibility to correct your ignorance?
    Because they represent .6% of the population, so most of us have little to no interaction.  How are we to learn?
    Read? I mean, hell, I don't have interaction with Ernest Hemingway, but I still know a shit-ton about him. 
    Pudding in and pudding in--don't feel like methadone. 
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 15,661
    ecdanc said:
    mrussel1 said:
    ecdanc said:
    ecdanc said:
    ecdanc said:
    this reminds me a lot of having an honest conversation with someone who is a devout christian. many times, you ask a simple question, they get all offended thinking you are making fun of them, when all you want is a straight answer. it's irritating and turns people off from wanting to be an ally or even just understanding their position. 
    See, the framing here is a little worrisome to me. The only thing to "understand" about transgender people/identity/rights is how not to dehumanize them, how to ensure their rights, how to support them. Anything beyond that is not a genuine effort to understand--it's an entree to judge and diminish. This isn't some anthropological exercise; it's real people facing real shit. So, frankly, being irritated and turned off probably says more about the learner than the teacher (in those instances). 
    yes, but as someone who isn't trans, I don't personally know that saying they "were a man" or "used to be a woman" is in any way dehumanizing. seriously, coming from an ignorant place, how the fuck would anyone know that's dehumanizing until we're told? it sounds factual to me. now, if someone were to tell me, "trans people don't identify is being a woman in a prior life because they always felt like a man inside", then I'm "oh, ok, I didn't realize that, I wont' say that again". 

    is it really that difficult to have that type of conversation instead of coming from a place of moral superiority?
    I get where you're coming from and, again...my tone isn't always great...but what you're describing is ignorance. I don't mean that in an insulting way, but in the literal dictionary definition. Basically all marginalized people bear the brunt of others' lack of knowledge all the damn time. So, it's a tricky thing: whose responsibility is it to educate others about trans people? 
    I didn't just describe it as ignorance. I damn well said the word. I fully acknowledge when I'm ignorant on a subject, and this is one of those subjects. 

    it's the trans community's responsibility to educate others. and if you wish to present yourself as an advocate, also yours.

    it's my responsibility as a decent person to listen. 
    See, this is where we disagree. Why do you think it is their responsibility to correct your ignorance?
    Because they represent .6% of the population, so most of us have little to no interaction.  How are we to learn?
    Read? I mean, hell, I don't have interaction with Ernest Hemingway, but I still know a shit-ton about him. 
    Umm.. that's a dumb argument.  Give it another shot.  
  • ecdancecdanc Posts: 1,557
    mrussel1 said:
    ecdanc said:
    mrussel1 said:
    ecdanc said:
    ecdanc said:
    ecdanc said:
    this reminds me a lot of having an honest conversation with someone who is a devout christian. many times, you ask a simple question, they get all offended thinking you are making fun of them, when all you want is a straight answer. it's irritating and turns people off from wanting to be an ally or even just understanding their position. 
    See, the framing here is a little worrisome to me. The only thing to "understand" about transgender people/identity/rights is how not to dehumanize them, how to ensure their rights, how to support them. Anything beyond that is not a genuine effort to understand--it's an entree to judge and diminish. This isn't some anthropological exercise; it's real people facing real shit. So, frankly, being irritated and turned off probably says more about the learner than the teacher (in those instances). 
    yes, but as someone who isn't trans, I don't personally know that saying they "were a man" or "used to be a woman" is in any way dehumanizing. seriously, coming from an ignorant place, how the fuck would anyone know that's dehumanizing until we're told? it sounds factual to me. now, if someone were to tell me, "trans people don't identify is being a woman in a prior life because they always felt like a man inside", then I'm "oh, ok, I didn't realize that, I wont' say that again". 

    is it really that difficult to have that type of conversation instead of coming from a place of moral superiority?
    I get where you're coming from and, again...my tone isn't always great...but what you're describing is ignorance. I don't mean that in an insulting way, but in the literal dictionary definition. Basically all marginalized people bear the brunt of others' lack of knowledge all the damn time. So, it's a tricky thing: whose responsibility is it to educate others about trans people? 
    I didn't just describe it as ignorance. I damn well said the word. I fully acknowledge when I'm ignorant on a subject, and this is one of those subjects. 

    it's the trans community's responsibility to educate others. and if you wish to present yourself as an advocate, also yours.

    it's my responsibility as a decent person to listen. 
    See, this is where we disagree. Why do you think it is their responsibility to correct your ignorance?
    Because they represent .6% of the population, so most of us have little to no interaction.  How are we to learn?
    Read? I mean, hell, I don't have interaction with Ernest Hemingway, but I still know a shit-ton about him. 
    Umm.. that's a dumb argument.  Give it another shot.  
    How is that dumb? You asked a question and I answered it (albeit snarkily). How much reading have you done on trans people/rights/issues? Do you want them to come door-to-door? 
    Pudding in and pudding in--don't feel like methadone. 
  • ecdancecdanc Posts: 1,557
    mickeyrat said:
    Who here is trans?
    I am not trans. 
    Pudding in and pudding in--don't feel like methadone. 
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 15,661
    ecdanc said:
    mrussel1 said:
    ecdanc said:
    mrussel1 said:
    ecdanc said:
    ecdanc said:
    ecdanc said:
    this reminds me a lot of having an honest conversation with someone who is a devout christian. many times, you ask a simple question, they get all offended thinking you are making fun of them, when all you want is a straight answer. it's irritating and turns people off from wanting to be an ally or even just understanding their position. 
    See, the framing here is a little worrisome to me. The only thing to "understand" about transgender people/identity/rights is how not to dehumanize them, how to ensure their rights, how to support them. Anything beyond that is not a genuine effort to understand--it's an entree to judge and diminish. This isn't some anthropological exercise; it's real people facing real shit. So, frankly, being irritated and turned off probably says more about the learner than the teacher (in those instances). 
    yes, but as someone who isn't trans, I don't personally know that saying they "were a man" or "used to be a woman" is in any way dehumanizing. seriously, coming from an ignorant place, how the fuck would anyone know that's dehumanizing until we're told? it sounds factual to me. now, if someone were to tell me, "trans people don't identify is being a woman in a prior life because they always felt like a man inside", then I'm "oh, ok, I didn't realize that, I wont' say that again". 

    is it really that difficult to have that type of conversation instead of coming from a place of moral superiority?
    I get where you're coming from and, again...my tone isn't always great...but what you're describing is ignorance. I don't mean that in an insulting way, but in the literal dictionary definition. Basically all marginalized people bear the brunt of others' lack of knowledge all the damn time. So, it's a tricky thing: whose responsibility is it to educate others about trans people? 
    I didn't just describe it as ignorance. I damn well said the word. I fully acknowledge when I'm ignorant on a subject, and this is one of those subjects. 

    it's the trans community's responsibility to educate others. and if you wish to present yourself as an advocate, also yours.

    it's my responsibility as a decent person to listen. 
    See, this is where we disagree. Why do you think it is their responsibility to correct your ignorance?
    Because they represent .6% of the population, so most of us have little to no interaction.  How are we to learn?
    Read? I mean, hell, I don't have interaction with Ernest Hemingway, but I still know a shit-ton about him. 
    Umm.. that's a dumb argument.  Give it another shot.  
    How is that dumb? You asked a question and I answered it (albeit snarkily). How much reading have you done on trans people/rights/issues? Do you want them to come door-to-door? 
    It's not a priority of mine to dig deeply into their social obstacles.  Put something up to vote to ensure civil rights, I'm all about it because I believe in that for every human.  But because I've known exactly one, almost 20 years ago, and outside of this past 24 hours have never 'written' about this particular sub group, it's not something I actively engage with.  
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