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All things Transgender related

mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 38,577
in A Moving Train
seems to be a topic that deserves its own discussion.

Here ya go......
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Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
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another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
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Comments

  • ecdancecdanc Posts: 1,814
    An interesting read about the perhaps surprising source of anti-trans ideas:

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/identities/2019/9/5/20840101/terfs-radical-feminists-gender-critical
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 29,671
    It seems to me that anti trans feelings existed before feminists. 
  • ecdancecdanc Posts: 1,814
    mrussel1 said:
    It seems to me that anti trans feelings existed before feminists. 
    I should have included the word “recent” in that sentence. 
  • ecdancecdanc Posts: 1,814
    mrussel1 said:
    It seems to me that anti trans feelings existed before feminists. 
    You do (perhaps unintentionally) raise an interesting point. Michel Foucault argued that homosexual (as an identity category--as opposed to homosexuality as a category of activity) didn't come into existence until the Victorian period. So, in essence, he claims there was no such thing as "a homosexual" before that time. I wonder if anyone has done a similar discursive archaeology of "transgender" (i.e., transgender man or transgender woman)? From a certain perspective, anti-trans feelings cannot predate the appearance of "transgender ____" as an identity category. Thus, the gap toward which you gesture may be shorter than you think. 
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,023
    edited January 2020
    .
    Post edited by brianlux on
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 29,671
    ecdanc said:
    mrussel1 said:
    It seems to me that anti trans feelings existed before feminists. 
    You do (perhaps unintentionally) raise an interesting point. Michel Foucault argued that homosexual (as an identity category--as opposed to homosexuality as a category of activity) didn't come into existence until the Victorian period. So, in essence, he claims there was no such thing as "a homosexual" before that time. I wonder if anyone has done a similar discursive archaeology of "transgender" (i.e., transgender man or transgender woman)? From a certain perspective, anti-trans feelings cannot predate the appearance of "transgender ____" as an identity category. Thus, the gap toward which you gesture may be shorter than you think. 
    That may be.. perhaps because the activity was condemned in the Old Testament and punishable by death in many cultures, so I doubt many people were eager to attach that word to themselves, same with Trans which would be even more damning.  I'v never studied the etymology of the word myself.  
  • ecdancecdanc Posts: 1,814
    brianlux said:
    Two minutes into a new thread and it goes negative.  Hmmm.  I guess some people just need to be negative, negative, negative.

    Personally, I don't care what people want to be- straight, gay, bi, tri, transgender- whatever.  It's your body, nobody should have the right to say what you do with it.  What I don't understand is why people would go through medical procedures to alter their body- removing something, adding something.  Not that I don't think people should have the choice to do that- I just don't get it.  I guess it has something so do with me being a natural man.  I think being homosexual is natural.  I don't think having a penisectomy is.
    Who got negative? I mean, the end of your post is pretty offensive, but I didn’t see anything before that. 
  • ecdancecdanc Posts: 1,814
    mrussel1 said:
    ecdanc said:
    mrussel1 said:
    It seems to me that anti trans feelings existed before feminists. 
    You do (perhaps unintentionally) raise an interesting point. Michel Foucault argued that homosexual (as an identity category--as opposed to homosexuality as a category of activity) didn't come into existence until the Victorian period. So, in essence, he claims there was no such thing as "a homosexual" before that time. I wonder if anyone has done a similar discursive archaeology of "transgender" (i.e., transgender man or transgender woman)? From a certain perspective, anti-trans feelings cannot predate the appearance of "transgender ____" as an identity category. Thus, the gap toward which you gesture may be shorter than you think. 
    That may be.. perhaps because the activity was condemned in the Old Testament and punishable by death in many cultures, so I doubt many people were eager to attach that word to themselves, same with Trans which would be even more damning.  I'v never studied the etymology of the word myself.  
    I think it’s a little more than that. It was quite literally unthinkable to conceive of one’s self as as possessing these identities before the discourse produced them. 
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,023
    edited January 2020
    .
    Post edited by brianlux on
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • ecdancecdanc Posts: 1,814
    brianlux said:
    ecdanc said:
    brianlux said:
    Two minutes into a new thread and it goes negative.  Hmmm.  I guess some people just need to be negative, negative, negative.

    Personally, I don't care what people want to be- straight, gay, bi, tri, transgender- whatever.  It's your body, nobody should have the right to say what you do with it.  What I don't understand is why people would go through medical procedures to alter their body- removing something, adding something.  Not that I don't think people should have the choice to do that- I just don't get it.  I guess it has something so do with me being a natural man.  I think being homosexual is natural.  I don't think having a penisectomy is.
    Who got negative? I mean, the end of your post is pretty offensive, but I didn’t see anything before that. 

    Why do you categorize my personal feelings as offensive when all I said was how I personally see something?  I didn't say anything should be prohibited.  I have two friends who are transgender and going through physical changes.  I care a lot for these people and would stand up for them 100%.  I just don't understand what they are doing.  Sorry you're offended.
    Because of your use of the word “natural.”
  • hedonisthedonist Posts: 24,524
    Ah, so NOW it turned negative. Really, in reading through the first posts, all seemed fine. 

    Oh well. Looking forward to reading more of this thread...I guess ;)
  • ecdancecdanc Posts: 1,814
    hedonist said:
    Ah, so NOW it turned negative. Really, in reading through the first posts, all seemed fine. 

    Oh well. Looking forward to reading more of this thread...I guess ;)
    I know, right? First page and someone already implying that transitioning trans people are “unnatural.” Sheesh. 
  • hedonisthedonist Posts: 24,524
    Well, my feelings on that may differ from yours but I sure as shit won’t vilify you for them. 
  • hedonisthedonist Posts: 24,524
    Gah! My bottom line is typically: your life, your choices, your feelings...just leave the innocents, children and animals alone!

    I can adapt. 
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,023
    edited January 2020
    .
    Post edited by brianlux on
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • hedonisthedonist Posts: 24,524
    brianlux said:
    ^^^  Nobody vilified anyone... except maybe you as per the usual.
    Really? That’s unnecessary (to me, anyway). 

    Well, a happy Sunday to you. 
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,023
    edited January 2020
    .
    Post edited by brianlux on
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 Posts: 23,303
    read Laura Jane Grace's book. she goes in-depth about gender dysphoria and her transition. good read.
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • ecdancecdanc Posts: 1,814
    brianlux said:
    ecdanc said:
    brianlux said:
    ecdanc said:
    brianlux said:
    Two minutes into a new thread and it goes negative.  Hmmm.  I guess some people just need to be negative, negative, negative.

    Personally, I don't care what people want to be- straight, gay, bi, tri, transgender- whatever.  It's your body, nobody should have the right to say what you do with it.  What I don't understand is why people would go through medical procedures to alter their body- removing something, adding something.  Not that I don't think people should have the choice to do that- I just don't get it.  I guess it has something so do with me being a natural man.  I think being homosexual is natural.  I don't think having a penisectomy is.
    Who got negative? I mean, the end of your post is pretty offensive, but I didn’t see anything before that. 

    Why do you categorize my personal feelings as offensive when all I said was how I personally see something?  I didn't say anything should be prohibited.  I have two friends who are transgender and going through physical changes.  I care a lot for these people and would stand up for them 100%.  I just don't understand what they are doing.  Sorry you're offended.
    Because of your use of the word “natural.”

    Like I said, I think homosexuality is natural.  And it is.  But unless you are a wild animal with it's leg caught in a trap, removing a part of one's body is not natural.  That's just simple fact.  Can you deal with that?  Why would that be deemed offensive?
    Repeating yourself doesn’t make it less offensive. 
  • ecdancecdanc Posts: 1,814
    hedonist said:
    Well, my feelings on that may differ from yours but I sure as shit won’t vilify you for them. 
    Am I the vilifier or the vilified here?
  • ecdancecdanc Posts: 1,814
    ecdanc said:
    brianlux said:
    ecdanc said:
    brianlux said:
    ecdanc said:
    brianlux said:
    Two minutes into a new thread and it goes negative.  Hmmm.  I guess some people just need to be negative, negative, negative.

    Personally, I don't care what people want to be- straight, gay, bi, tri, transgender- whatever.  It's your body, nobody should have the right to say what you do with it.  What I don't understand is why people would go through medical procedures to alter their body- removing something, adding something.  Not that I don't think people should have the choice to do that- I just don't get it.  I guess it has something so do with me being a natural man.  I think being homosexual is natural.  I don't think having a penisectomy is.
    Who got negative? I mean, the end of your post is pretty offensive, but I didn’t see anything before that. 

    Why do you categorize my personal feelings as offensive when all I said was how I personally see something?  I didn't say anything should be prohibited.  I have two friends who are transgender and going through physical changes.  I care a lot for these people and would stand up for them 100%.  I just don't understand what they are doing.  Sorry you're offended.
    Because of your use of the word “natural.”

    Like I said, I think homosexuality is natural.  And it is.  But unless you are a wild animal with it's leg caught in a trap, removing a part of one's body is not natural.  That's just simple fact.  Can you deal with that?  Why would that be deemed offensive?
    Repeating yourself doesn’t make it less offensive. 
    You also might want to check with cancer patients. 
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,023
    edited January 2020
    .
    Post edited by brianlux on
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • ecdancecdanc Posts: 1,814
    brianlux said:
    ecdanc said:
    brianlux said:
    ecdanc said:
    brianlux said:
    ecdanc said:
    brianlux said:
    Two minutes into a new thread and it goes negative.  Hmmm.  I guess some people just need to be negative, negative, negative.

    Personally, I don't care what people want to be- straight, gay, bi, tri, transgender- whatever.  It's your body, nobody should have the right to say what you do with it.  What I don't understand is why people would go through medical procedures to alter their body- removing something, adding something.  Not that I don't think people should have the choice to do that- I just don't get it.  I guess it has something so do with me being a natural man.  I think being homosexual is natural.  I don't think having a penisectomy is.
    Who got negative? I mean, the end of your post is pretty offensive, but I didn’t see anything before that. 

    Why do you categorize my personal feelings as offensive when all I said was how I personally see something?  I didn't say anything should be prohibited.  I have two friends who are transgender and going through physical changes.  I care a lot for these people and would stand up for them 100%.  I just don't understand what they are doing.  Sorry you're offended.
    Because of your use of the word “natural.”

    Like I said, I think homosexuality is natural.  And it is.  But unless you are a wild animal with it's leg caught in a trap, removing a part of one's body is not natural.  That's just simple fact.  Can you deal with that?  Why would that be deemed offensive?
    Repeating yourself doesn’t make it less offensive. 

    OK, I get it.  You just want to dance.  No thanks, I'm out.
    Nope. Just want to point out that your certainty you aren’t being offensive has little to do with how offensive you’re being. You’re calling trans people unnatural, which is linked quite directly to a long historical line of prejudice. 

  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,023
    edited January 2020
    .
    Post edited by brianlux on
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • ecdancecdanc Posts: 1,814
    brianlux said:
    ecdanc said:
    brianlux said:
    ecdanc said:
    brianlux said:
    ecdanc said:
    brianlux said:
    ecdanc said:
    brianlux said:
    Two minutes into a new thread and it goes negative.  Hmmm.  I guess some people just need to be negative, negative, negative.

    Personally, I don't care what people want to be- straight, gay, bi, tri, transgender- whatever.  It's your body, nobody should have the right to say what you do with it.  What I don't understand is why people would go through medical procedures to alter their body- removing something, adding something.  Not that I don't think people should have the choice to do that- I just don't get it.  I guess it has something so do with me being a natural man.  I think being homosexual is natural.  I don't think having a penisectomy is.
    Who got negative? I mean, the end of your post is pretty offensive, but I didn’t see anything before that. 

    Why do you categorize my personal feelings as offensive when all I said was how I personally see something?  I didn't say anything should be prohibited.  I have two friends who are transgender and going through physical changes.  I care a lot for these people and would stand up for them 100%.  I just don't understand what they are doing.  Sorry you're offended.
    Because of your use of the word “natural.”

    Like I said, I think homosexuality is natural.  And it is.  But unless you are a wild animal with it's leg caught in a trap, removing a part of one's body is not natural.  That's just simple fact.  Can you deal with that?  Why would that be deemed offensive?
    Repeating yourself doesn’t make it less offensive. 

    OK, I get it.  You just want to dance.  No thanks, I'm out.
    Nope. Just want to point out that your certainty you aren’t being offensive has little to do with how offensive you’re being. You’re calling trans people unnatural, which is linked quite directly to a long historical line of prejudice. 


    I guess you missed the point about my having two friends who are trans, both of whom I would defend 100%.  But you just want to argue and berate me which, although that doesn't hurt my feelings, leaves me with the sense that this is useless and pointless.  I won't go around in circles with you.

    OK, sorry, I did say I'm done, so have the last word and I'm outta here.
    I understand if you don't want to engage, so I'll just post this response more for others who might come across this thread. For centuries, religious, scientific, and political discourses have used the label "unnatural" as a method for dehumanizing marginalized peoples. At its core, this discursive move locates the "unnatural" individual has one who a) quite literally should not exist; or b) should not be permitted to do certain things (e.g., miscegenation laws; sodomy laws; etc.). So, while I do believe you care for your trans friends, I'd like to think that you--and others in the same position--can move beyond embracing the marginalized people you know, to consider the implications of what you say and do for those you don't know. Because there's a great deal of hate directed at trans people these days and, while I do not necessarily think you purposefully engage in that hate, your speech/views here are linked quite explicitly to the speech/views of those who do. 
  • hedonisthedonist Posts: 24,524
    ecdanc said:
    hedonist said:
    Well, my feelings on that may differ from yours but I sure as shit won’t vilify you for them. 
    Am I the vilifier or the vilified here?
    Vilification-free zone here =)

    And for what it's worth (disclaimer:  un-brian related!), I like the gist of your last post.  I knew a fella years ago who was beginning the transition...this was the late '80's, with all of the prejudices and vitriol toward those with AIDS...so there was much misunderstanding - or, rather, a kind of unwillingness to try to understand.

    It broke my heart.

  • SpunkieSpunkie Posts: 6,672
    edited January 2020
    UBC trains teachers to deliver a renewed curriculum inclusive of SOGI - sexual orientation and gender identity - as well as instructions not to use the words 'boys' and 'girls'.
    Post edited by Spunkie on
  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 Posts: 10,739
    I have a cousin who son has transitioned into a female...I was at a funeral and I thought she was his daughter...he has a daughter and son...now 2 daughters.  Al I can say is she was quite stunning.  No one would ever know she used to be a he...
    Give Peas A Chance…
  • ecdancecdanc Posts: 1,814
    Meltdown99 said:
    I have a cousin who son has transitioned into a female...I was at a funeral and I thought she was his daughter...he has a daughter and son...now 2 daughters.  Al I can say is she was quite stunning.  No one would ever know she used to be a he...
    She is his daughter. 
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 16,445
    ecdanc said:
    Meltdown99 said:
    I have a cousin who son has transitioned into a female...I was at a funeral and I thought she was his daughter...he has a daughter and son...now 2 daughters.  Al I can say is she was quite stunning.  No one would ever know she used to be a he...
    She is his daughter. 
    Dude you continue to go around and try to find fault with others.  Read it again.  He called her his daughter.  His first statement was going from the standpoint of what he knew before that...that the guy had a daughter and a son. 

    "now 2 daughters".... he was respectful.  No need to go around and try to catch people making small errors, especially when it's not even true.
    hippiemom = goodness
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