All things Transgender related

cincybearcat

ecdanc said:

cincybearcat said:

ecdanc said:

tish said:

People are starting to sign emails like this:
Tish Lovely, BA, BEd, (she, her, hers). "They" is used typically if unknown.

We use “they” for our child, who we are raising gender neutral

So - when raising a child gender neutral, what does that mean exactly? 

Treating our child as if they do not have a gender until they identify. 

Yeah I guess I was asking for some more specifics in how you believe you are achieving this? 

ecdanc

HughFreakingDillon said:

ecdanc said:

cincybearcat said:

ecdanc said:

tish said:

People are starting to sign emails like this:
Tish Lovely, BA, BEd, (she, her, hers). "They" is used typically if unknown.

We use “they” for our child, who we are raising gender neutral

So - when raising a child gender neutral, what does that mean exactly? 

Treating our child as if they do not have a gender until they identify. 

no judgment, just a question: don't you think that in and of itself could be wildly confusing for a kid? 

More confusing/harmful than traditional gender roles? No. 

ecdanc

cincybearcat said:

ecdanc said:

cincybearcat said:

ecdanc said:

tish said:

People are starting to sign emails like this:
Tish Lovely, BA, BEd, (she, her, hers). "They" is used typically if unknown.

We use “they” for our child, who we are raising gender neutral

So - when raising a child gender neutral, what does that mean exactly? 

Treating our child as if they do not have a gender until they identify. 

Yeah I guess I was asking for some more specifics in how you believe you are achieving this? 

Do you have kids?

ecdanc

mrussel1 said:

ecdanc said:

cincybearcat said:

ecdanc said:

tish said:

People are starting to sign emails like this:
Tish Lovely, BA, BEd, (she, her, hers). "They" is used typically if unknown.

We use “they” for our child, who we are raising gender neutral

So - when raising a child gender neutral, what does that mean exactly? 

Treating our child as if they do not have a gender until they identify. 

How will your child 'identify'?  What's the moment?  

The same time they would if we didn’t raise them gender neutral

Spunkie

ecdanc said:

tish said:

People are starting to sign emails like this:
Tish Lovely, BA, BEd, (she, her, hers). "They" is used typically if unknown.

We use “they” for our child, who we are raising gender neutral

ecdanc

tish said:

ecdanc said:

tish said:

People are starting to sign emails like this:
Tish Lovely, BA, BEd, (she, her, hers). "They" is used typically if unknown.

We use “they” for our child, who we are raising gender neutral

That's pretty awesome ecdanc! I thought I was doing a good job by promoting androgeny (which yields most positive outcomes) and providing a toolbench next to the pretend kitchen.

Thanks! Kudos to you, as well!

HughFreakingDillon

ecdanc said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

ecdanc said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

ecdanc said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

ecdanc said:

mickeyrat said:

ecdanc said:

mickeyrat said:

Who here is trans?

I am not trans. 

so how did you come to learn what you have been beating people over the head with. And dont try to deny that FACT.

prior to gaining this knowledge , what were your thoughts on this subject?

how long was the transition from one thought plane to the other?

I'm guessing for most here it's a subject we hadnt needed to think much on. However, since some more recent acceptance surrounding the lives of gay people, room has now been carved out for such conversations. Within that there will a fair amount of misspeaking (based on older ideas not malintent) until we come established language we ALL agree on. So until we can come understand this language set, how about you look at turning the volume down, especially on the accusations and labeling. It isnt helpful to furthering the discussion and our newly learned understanding of this subject and the issues surrounding it. Its new to us.

Browbeating may not be the intention but it surely is the result. And intentions are irrelevant in the face of the result.

Why does everyone have to agree? 

I have apologized and attempted to modulate my tone for precisely the reason that closes your post. 

As for your questions, I was previous ignorant, yes--would never deny that. I grew up in a very insulated, very white, very religious place, so I previously held abhorrent views. I learned about these issues during the latter part of my schooling and once I began my job. None of those answers obviate the responsibility of every individual to do everything within their power to treat trans people with respect from this moment forward. 

so you were taught, you didn't take responsibility as a human to learn about it yourself in your free time. 

Not really. When I say "during the latter part of my schooling and once I begin my job" I don't mean to suggest these things were part of my formal education. By that point, everything was independent research, so....yeah, I did learn about it on my own. Not so much during my "free time," but while shaping my identity as a scholar and a teacher. 

well then, I will say again: let us all know when you've sufficiently educated yourself on every single social ill on the planet. then we'll talk. 

C'mon, man. That's so tired. I fully admit I'm imperfect and I strive to learn new things every day. At the top of my list of things to learn is "how can I treat marginalized people better." If you're going to use my imperfection as an excuse for you not learning...well, there's not much I can do. In my experience, people who say they want to understand better are rarely serious. I'd hoped you were an exception. 

the reason I am here is to learn. that is literally why I come here. but your admonishing of everyone else reeks of arrogance and hypocrisy. it is simply unrealistic to expect everyone to research the plight of every social ill there is. just because this one is important to you, in no way means that the ones are important to me are any less important. 

i sat on saturday night and listened to an aboriginal two spirited trans woman. she didn't berate everyone for not knowing everything there is to know about trans issues, nor did she stand there in indignation of everyone. she stood there, humble, shy, and spoke about her own plight and the issues she has had to face over her 69 years on this earth. 

THAT's how advocacy and education happen. not by the smug expectation of "learn it yourself". 

You just keep placing the onus on others. I’m suggesting you take initiative. Surely it can be, at least, a mix of the two. 

yeah, that's kind of how advocacy works. if people want others to know about an issue that is dear to them, they teach others. if it sticks, then it becomes something I'll research on my own. if it doesn't, then it doesn't. I'm not going to add googling "social issues of the day" into my daily routine. 

ecdanc

HughFreakingDillon said:

ecdanc said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

ecdanc said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

ecdanc said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

ecdanc said:

mickeyrat said:

ecdanc said:

mickeyrat said:

Who here is trans?

I am not trans. 

so how did you come to learn what you have been beating people over the head with. And dont try to deny that FACT.

prior to gaining this knowledge , what were your thoughts on this subject?

how long was the transition from one thought plane to the other?

I'm guessing for most here it's a subject we hadnt needed to think much on. However, since some more recent acceptance surrounding the lives of gay people, room has now been carved out for such conversations. Within that there will a fair amount of misspeaking (based on older ideas not malintent) until we come established language we ALL agree on. So until we can come understand this language set, how about you look at turning the volume down, especially on the accusations and labeling. It isnt helpful to furthering the discussion and our newly learned understanding of this subject and the issues surrounding it. Its new to us.

Browbeating may not be the intention but it surely is the result. And intentions are irrelevant in the face of the result.

Why does everyone have to agree? 

I have apologized and attempted to modulate my tone for precisely the reason that closes your post. 

As for your questions, I was previous ignorant, yes--would never deny that. I grew up in a very insulated, very white, very religious place, so I previously held abhorrent views. I learned about these issues during the latter part of my schooling and once I began my job. None of those answers obviate the responsibility of every individual to do everything within their power to treat trans people with respect from this moment forward. 

so you were taught, you didn't take responsibility as a human to learn about it yourself in your free time. 

Not really. When I say "during the latter part of my schooling and once I begin my job" I don't mean to suggest these things were part of my formal education. By that point, everything was independent research, so....yeah, I did learn about it on my own. Not so much during my "free time," but while shaping my identity as a scholar and a teacher. 

well then, I will say again: let us all know when you've sufficiently educated yourself on every single social ill on the planet. then we'll talk. 

C'mon, man. That's so tired. I fully admit I'm imperfect and I strive to learn new things every day. At the top of my list of things to learn is "how can I treat marginalized people better." If you're going to use my imperfection as an excuse for you not learning...well, there's not much I can do. In my experience, people who say they want to understand better are rarely serious. I'd hoped you were an exception. 

the reason I am here is to learn. that is literally why I come here. but your admonishing of everyone else reeks of arrogance and hypocrisy. it is simply unrealistic to expect everyone to research the plight of every social ill there is. just because this one is important to you, in no way means that the ones are important to me are any less important. 

i sat on saturday night and listened to an aboriginal two spirited trans woman. she didn't berate everyone for not knowing everything there is to know about trans issues, nor did she stand there in indignation of everyone. she stood there, humble, shy, and spoke about her own plight and the issues she has had to face over her 69 years on this earth. 

THAT's how advocacy and education happen. not by the smug expectation of "learn it yourself". 

You just keep placing the onus on others. I’m suggesting you take initiative. Surely it can be, at least, a mix of the two. 

yeah, that's kind of how advocacy works. if people want others to know about an issue that is dear to them, they teach others. if it sticks, then it becomes something I'll research on my own. if it doesn't, then it doesn't. I'm not going to add googling "social issues of the day" into my daily routine. 

I think you should. That’s all. 

HughFreakingDillon

ecdanc said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

ecdanc said:

cincybearcat said:

ecdanc said:

tish said:

People are starting to sign emails like this:
Tish Lovely, BA, BEd, (she, her, hers). "They" is used typically if unknown.

We use “they” for our child, who we are raising gender neutral

So - when raising a child gender neutral, what does that mean exactly? 

Treating our child as if they do not have a gender until they identify. 

no judgment, just a question: don't you think that in and of itself could be wildly confusing for a kid? 

More confusing/harmful than traditional gender roles? No. 

you don't have to raise your kids with traditional gender roles to raise them knowing they are a female. my girls are not confused or harmed whatsoever. we have spoken to them both about how important it is to express themselves in healthy ways and ways that are meaningful to them. 

my personal take is that raising them from the beginning as neutral would have been very confusing to them. 

ecdanc

HughFreakingDillon said:

ecdanc said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

ecdanc said:

cincybearcat said:

ecdanc said:

tish said:

People are starting to sign emails like this:
Tish Lovely, BA, BEd, (she, her, hers). "They" is used typically if unknown.

We use “they” for our child, who we are raising gender neutral

So - when raising a child gender neutral, what does that mean exactly? 

Treating our child as if they do not have a gender until they identify. 

no judgment, just a question: don't you think that in and of itself could be wildly confusing for a kid? 

More confusing/harmful than traditional gender roles? No. 

you don't have to raise your kids with traditional gender roles to raise them knowing they are a female. my girls are not confused or harmed whatsoever. we have spoken to them both about how important it is to express themselves in healthy ways and ways that are meaningful to them. 

my personal take is that raising them from the beginning as neutral would have been very confusing to them. 

Good point. Strike the words “traditional” and “roles” from my response. It’s not just those roles we’re resisting, but gender as such. 

mrussel1

ecdanc said:

mrussel1 said:

ecdanc said:

cincybearcat said:

ecdanc said:

tish said:

People are starting to sign emails like this:
Tish Lovely, BA, BEd, (she, her, hers). "They" is used typically if unknown.

We use “they” for our child, who we are raising gender neutral

So - when raising a child gender neutral, what does that mean exactly? 

Treating our child as if they do not have a gender until they identify. 

How will your child 'identify'?  What's the moment?  

The same time they would if we didn’t raise them gender neutral

Can you be more specific?  What kind of clothes do they wear?  Is the name amorphous?  I don't know what you mean by the 'same time'.  

ecdanc

Happy to explain if I can, mrussel. But I’ll begin with the last part of your response—we can return to the two questions later, if you want. 

Children are not born with a gender identity they can express. They are assigned a gender at birth (or, often now, before birth). I’m purposely sidestepping “sex” here to focus on gender, but generally speaking the assigned gender aligns with the child’s genitals (penis = boy, etc.). Gender identity comes later—while there isn’t a great deal of research in this area, some experts suggest this happens as early as three years old. So, while I’m oversimplifying things slightly, a child will express their identity at the same age, regardless of whether they are assigned a gender at birth. Does that help make things clearer?

cincybearcat

ecdanc said:

cincybearcat said:

ecdanc said:

cincybearcat said:

ecdanc said:

tish said:

People are starting to sign emails like this:
Tish Lovely, BA, BEd, (she, her, hers). "They" is used typically if unknown.

We use “they” for our child, who we are raising gender neutral

So - when raising a child gender neutral, what does that mean exactly? 

Treating our child as if they do not have a gender until they identify. 

Yeah I guess I was asking for some more specifics in how you believe you are achieving this? 

Do you have kids?

Yes. I have a daughter who very early on went full on princess despite my wife and I (both engineers) trying to ensure she also had engineering toys. So today I have a great daughter that competes in various dance styles and kicks ass in math and science and building stuff.

We had friends that were having a daughter. They talked about making sure she didn’t like princesses and stuff. I laughed and said, she will like what she will like. You can do what you want and it’s a good thing, but you cannot guarantee she won’t want to be a princess. Despite their best efforts, she loved Pink and princesses pretty quickly. And they didn’t want her to.  I think it’s great to try and help and make sure every child can pick what they like and be themselves. I don’t like trying to stifle them from being who they are though. I do realize there is a world of influence out there that you cannot control. 

Im really not sure why you aren’t answering. I am just really curious on how to make that work. Cause we really tried to limit the boy/girl thing as much as we could. But once my daughter showed her interest, and it was at a very young age, we went with it. 

cincybearcat

tish said:

ecdanc said:

tish said:

People are starting to sign emails like this:
Tish Lovely, BA, BEd, (she, her, hers). "They" is used typically if unknown.

We use “they” for our child, who we are raising gender neutral

That's pretty awesome ecdanc! I thought I was doing a good job by promoting androgeny (which yields most positive outcomes) and providing a toolbench next to the pretend kitchen.

I do think this is important. No reason to put a kid in a box before they decide what box they like.  

ecdanc

cincybearcat said:

ecdanc said:

cincybearcat said:

ecdanc said:

cincybearcat said:

ecdanc said:

tish said:

People are starting to sign emails like this:
Tish Lovely, BA, BEd, (she, her, hers). "They" is used typically if unknown.

We use “they” for our child, who we are raising gender neutral

So - when raising a child gender neutral, what does that mean exactly? 

Treating our child as if they do not have a gender until they identify. 

Yeah I guess I was asking for some more specifics in how you believe you are achieving this? 

Do you have kids?

Yes. I have a daughter who very early on went full on princess despite my wife and I (both engineers) trying to ensure she also had engineering toys. So today I have a great daughter that competes in various dance styles and kicks ass in math and science and building stuff.

We had friends that were having a daughter. They talked about making sure she didn’t like princesses and stuff. I laughed and said, she will like what she will like. You can do what you want and it’s a good thing, but you cannot guarantee she won’t want to be a princess. Despite their best efforts, she loved Pink and princesses pretty quickly. And they didn’t want her to.  I think it’s great to try and help and make sure every child can pick what they like and be themselves. I don’t like trying to stifle them from being who they are though. I do realize there is a world of influence out there that you cannot control. 

Im really not sure why you aren’t answering. I am just really curious on how to make that work. Cause we really tried to limit the boy/girl thing as much as we could. But once my daughter showed her interest, and it was at a very young age, we went with it. 

Apologies. I’ve been slow responding because I’m taking care of theyby and typing on my phone. I asked my question not to avoid yours, but to help me frame my answer. I’ll respond when I’m at my computer next. Cheers. 

cincybearcat

ecdanc said:

cincybearcat said:

ecdanc said:

cincybearcat said:

ecdanc said:

cincybearcat said:

ecdanc said:

tish said:

People are starting to sign emails like this:
Tish Lovely, BA, BEd, (she, her, hers). "They" is used typically if unknown.

We use “they” for our child, who we are raising gender neutral

So - when raising a child gender neutral, what does that mean exactly? 

Treating our child as if they do not have a gender until they identify. 

Yeah I guess I was asking for some more specifics in how you believe you are achieving this? 

Do you have kids?

Yes. I have a daughter who very early on went full on princess despite my wife and I (both engineers) trying to ensure she also had engineering toys. So today I have a great daughter that competes in various dance styles and kicks ass in math and science and building stuff.

We had friends that were having a daughter. They talked about making sure she didn’t like princesses and stuff. I laughed and said, she will like what she will like. You can do what you want and it’s a good thing, but you cannot guarantee she won’t want to be a princess. Despite their best efforts, she loved Pink and princesses pretty quickly. And they didn’t want her to.  I think it’s great to try and help and make sure every child can pick what they like and be themselves. I don’t like trying to stifle them from being who they are though. I do realize there is a world of influence out there that you cannot control. 

Im really not sure why you aren’t answering. I am just really curious on how to make that work. Cause we really tried to limit the boy/girl thing as much as we could. But once my daughter showed her interest, and it was at a very young age, we went with it. 

Apologies. I’ve been slow responding because I’m taking care of theyby and typing on my phone. I asked my question not to avoid yours, but to help me frame my answer. I’ll respond when I’m at my computer next. Cheers. 

Got it. No worries.

mrussel1

ecdanc said:

Happy to explain if I can, mrussel. But I’ll begin with the last part of your response—we can return to the two questions later, if you want. 

Children are not born with a gender identity they can express. They are assigned a gender at birth (or, often now, before birth). I’m purposely sidestepping “sex” here to focus on gender, but generally speaking the assigned gender aligns with the child’s genitals (penis = boy, etc.). Gender identity comes later—while there isn’t a great deal of research in this area, some experts suggest this happens as early as three years old. So, while I’m oversimplifying things slightly, a child will express their identity at the same age, regardless of whether they are assigned a gender at birth. Does that help make things clearer?

I understand all of that in a vacuum.  But of course life is more complicated.  Children get signals from their environment all the time that reinforce the sex to the gender.  Whether it's the name of the child, the clothes they wear, etc.  Some can be controlled by the parents and some is just all around them.  
I remember when my son (Nicholas, male name, named after my father who died a decade before his birth) clicked into his gender I believe.  It was his grandmother's funeral.  He picked up a toy in the church basement.  It was a Barbie corvette.  He took Barbie out of the car, chucked her across the room, and started vrooming around in the vette.  He was less than 2.  I'm sure he had lots of clues from me before that he was a boy.., but I don't think I forced him either.  

OnWis97

ecdanc said:

Happy to explain if I can, mrussel. But I’ll begin with the last part of your response—we can return to the two questions later, if you want. 

Children are not born with a gender identity they can express. They are assigned a gender at birth (or, often now, before birth). I’m purposely sidestepping “sex” here to focus on gender, but generally speaking the assigned gender aligns with the child’s genitals (penis = boy, etc.). Gender identity comes later—while there isn’t a great deal of research in this area, some experts suggest this happens as early as three years old. So, while I’m oversimplifying things slightly, a child will express their identity at the same age, regardless of whether they are assigned a gender at birth. Does that help make things clearer?

One of the unfortunate quirks of the English language is the double meaning of the word "sex."  I feel like it causes us to conflate "sex" and "gender" because people treat the former like 7-years who think it's a dirty word. So now you have these very public "gender reveals" when it is more accurately a "sex reveal."  But "sex reveal" is not likely ever to become a common term.

I appreciate how this thread has calmed down since it started in another thread.  I think it's OK to have, and acknowledge, ignorance. This is an evolving topic and many people don't understand it well (myself probably included).  You could argue we should understand it better, but we are where we are.

I don't have (or want) kids. If I did, it probably would have been at least 10 years ago, which for this topic was quite a different time. I truly doubt I'd have raised them gender neutrally.  But I do believe I'd have been very open and accepting if their gender turned out to be a "surprise."  If it happened now?  I think that thanks to discussions like this thread, I'd definitely downplay gender. If, for example, the child was born a male, I would let the child* come to it on their own.  It does seem to me that the more you push their sex as their gender, the harder it must be on them if that is not how it plays out.

*another unfortunate quirk is lack of neutral pronouns.  

OnWis97

mrussel1 said:

ecdanc said:

Happy to explain if I can, mrussel. But I’ll begin with the last part of your response—we can return to the two questions later, if you want. 

Children are not born with a gender identity they can express. They are assigned a gender at birth (or, often now, before birth). I’m purposely sidestepping “sex” here to focus on gender, but generally speaking the assigned gender aligns with the child’s genitals (penis = boy, etc.). Gender identity comes later—while there isn’t a great deal of research in this area, some experts suggest this happens as early as three years old. So, while I’m oversimplifying things slightly, a child will express their identity at the same age, regardless of whether they are assigned a gender at birth. Does that help make things clearer?

I understand all of that in a vacuum.  But of course life is more complicated.  Children get signals from their environment all the time that reinforce the sex to the gender.  Whether it's the name of the child, the clothes they wear, etc.  Some can be controlled by the parents and some is just all around them.  
I remember when my son (Nicholas, male name, named after my father who died a decade before his birth) clicked into his gender I believe.  It was his grandmother's funeral.  He picked up a toy in the church basement.  It was a Barbie corvette.  He took Barbie out of the car, chucked her across the room, and started vrooming around in the vette.  He was less than 2.  I'm sure he had lots of clues from me before that he was a boy.., but I don't think I forced him either.  

Very true.  I'd say parents can, officially, only "mitigate."  But yeah, we're still at the stage where a parent that would not say "no Stevie, boys don't play with dolls" is a victory.

cincybearcat

The term theyby was new to me so I looked it up and read an interesting article.  

A couple of things that made me wonder - it seems parents of theybies cut their kids hair short and they seem to dress in the manner of what in the past would be “traditional boys”. Though they are also providing the kids with lots of toys across Both traditional marketing marketing genders. 

But I guess I’m giving them the gender “traditional boys” based on the past and my perception....so Nevermind the question I was about to ask.

i get the sentiment and it’s noble. It is very hard in the world we all live in. I also would prefer a world that was ok assigning sex based on genitalia but that it didn’t really mean much.