It seems to me that anti trans feelings existed before feminists.
You do (perhaps unintentionally) raise an interesting point. Michel Foucault argued that homosexual (as an identity category--as opposed to homosexuality as a category of activity) didn't come into existence until the Victorian period. So, in essence, he claims there was no such thing as "a homosexual" before that time. I wonder if anyone has done a similar discursive archaeology of "transgender" (i.e., transgender man or transgender woman)? From a certain perspective, anti-trans feelings cannot predate the appearance of "transgender ____" as an identity category. Thus, the gap toward which you gesture may be shorter than you think.
this reminds me a lot of having an honest conversation with someone who is a devout christian. many times, you ask a simple question, they get all offended thinking you are making fun of them, when all you want is a straight answer. it's irritating and turns people off from wanting to be an ally or even just understanding their position.
See, the framing here is a little worrisome to me. The only thing to "understand" about transgender people/identity/rights is how not to dehumanize them, how to ensure their rights, how to support them. Anything beyond that is not a genuine effort to understand--it's an entree to judge and diminish. This isn't some anthropological exercise; it's real people facing real shit. So, frankly, being irritated and turned off probably says more about the learner than the teacher (in those instances).
yes, but as someone who isn't trans, I don't personally know that saying they "were a man" or "used to be a woman" is in any way dehumanizing. seriously, coming from an ignorant place, how the fuck would anyone know that's dehumanizing until we're told? it sounds factual to me. now, if someone were to tell me, "trans people don't identify is being a woman in a prior life because they always felt like a man inside", then I'm "oh, ok, I didn't realize that, I wont' say that again".
is it really that difficult to have that type of conversation instead of coming from a place of moral superiority?
I get where you're coming from and, again...my tone isn't always great...but what you're describing is ignorance. I don't mean that in an insulting way, but in the literal dictionary definition. Basically all marginalized people bear the brunt of others' lack of knowledge all the damn time. So, it's a tricky thing: whose responsibility is it to educate others about trans people?
I didn't just describe it as ignorance. I damn well said the word. I fully acknowledge when I'm ignorant on a subject, and this is one of those subjects.
it's the trans community's responsibility to educate others. and if you wish to present yourself as an advocate, also yours.
it's my responsibility as a decent person to listen.
See, this is where we disagree. Why do you think it is their responsibility to correct your ignorance?
Because they represent .6% of the population, so most of us have little to no interaction. How are we to learn?
Read? I mean, hell, I don't have interaction with Ernest Hemingway, but I still know a shit-ton about him.
Umm.. that's a dumb argument. Give it another shot.
How is that dumb? You asked a question and I answered it (albeit snarkily). How much reading have you done on trans people/rights/issues? Do you want them to come door-to-door?
It's not a priority of mine to dig deeply into their social obstacles. Put something up to vote to ensure civil rights, I'm all about it because I believe in that for every human. But because I've known exactly one, almost 20 years ago, and outside of this past 24 hours have never 'written' about this particular sub group, it's not something I actively engage with.
So, you don't want to know about them. Such is your right, but to me that appears an abdication of your responsibilities as a human.
It seems to me that anti trans feelings existed before feminists.
You do (perhaps unintentionally) raise an interesting point. Michel Foucault argued that homosexual (as an identity category--as opposed to homosexuality as a category of activity) didn't come into existence until the Victorian period. So, in essence, he claims there was no such thing as "a homosexual" before that time. I wonder if anyone has done a similar discursive archaeology of "transgender" (i.e., transgender man or transgender woman)? From a certain perspective, anti-trans feelings cannot predate the appearance of "transgender ____" as an identity category. Thus, the gap toward which you gesture may be shorter than you think.
Before 'transgender' was 'two-spirited', a revered and high position within the First Nation communities.
Gender reassignment surgery is the appropriate term, rather than penisectomy.
Transgender and two-spirited are not the same thing. I do not have sufficient knowledge to say which precedes the other.
Is that because surgery was not an option pre-colonization?
No, just recognizing that not all (some, perhaps?) two-spirited indigenous persons identify as transgender persons. From my understanding two-spirited aligns more closely with "gender fluid" because it denies the gender binary on which transgender identity is typically predicated.
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mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 35,779
so how did you come to learn what you have been beating people over the head with. And dont try to deny that FACT.
prior to gaining this knowledge , what were your thoughts on this subject?
how long was the transition from one thought plane to the other?
I'm guessing for most here it's a subject we hadnt needed to think much on. However, since some more recent acceptance surrounding the lives of gay people, room has now been carved out for such conversations. Within that there will a fair amount of misspeaking (based on older ideas not malintent) until we come established language we ALL agree on. So until we can come understand this language set, how about you look at turning the volume down, especially on the accusations and labeling. It isnt helpful to furthering the discussion and our newly learned understanding of this subject and the issues surrounding it. Its new to us.
Browbeating may not be the intention but it surely is the result. And intentions are irrelevant in the face of the result.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
this reminds me a lot of having an honest conversation with someone who is a devout christian. many times, you ask a simple question, they get all offended thinking you are making fun of them, when all you want is a straight answer. it's irritating and turns people off from wanting to be an ally or even just understanding their position.
See, the framing here is a little worrisome to me. The only thing to "understand" about transgender people/identity/rights is how not to dehumanize them, how to ensure their rights, how to support them. Anything beyond that is not a genuine effort to understand--it's an entree to judge and diminish. This isn't some anthropological exercise; it's real people facing real shit. So, frankly, being irritated and turned off probably says more about the learner than the teacher (in those instances).
yes, but as someone who isn't trans, I don't personally know that saying they "were a man" or "used to be a woman" is in any way dehumanizing. seriously, coming from an ignorant place, how the fuck would anyone know that's dehumanizing until we're told? it sounds factual to me. now, if someone were to tell me, "trans people don't identify is being a woman in a prior life because they always felt like a man inside", then I'm "oh, ok, I didn't realize that, I wont' say that again".
is it really that difficult to have that type of conversation instead of coming from a place of moral superiority?
I get where you're coming from and, again...my tone isn't always great...but what you're describing is ignorance. I don't mean that in an insulting way, but in the literal dictionary definition. Basically all marginalized people bear the brunt of others' lack of knowledge all the damn time. So, it's a tricky thing: whose responsibility is it to educate others about trans people?
I didn't just describe it as ignorance. I damn well said the word. I fully acknowledge when I'm ignorant on a subject, and this is one of those subjects.
it's the trans community's responsibility to educate others. and if you wish to present yourself as an advocate, also yours.
it's my responsibility as a decent person to listen.
See, this is where we disagree. Why do you think it is their responsibility to correct your ignorance?
Because they represent .6% of the population, so most of us have little to no interaction. How are we to learn?
Read? I mean, hell, I don't have interaction with Ernest Hemingway, but I still know a shit-ton about him.
Umm.. that's a dumb argument. Give it another shot.
How is that dumb? You asked a question and I answered it (albeit snarkily). How much reading have you done on trans people/rights/issues? Do you want them to come door-to-door?
It's not a priority of mine to dig deeply into their social obstacles. Put something up to vote to ensure civil rights, I'm all about it because I believe in that for every human. But because I've known exactly one, almost 20 years ago, and outside of this past 24 hours have never 'written' about this particular sub group, it's not something I actively engage with.
So, you don't want to know about them. Such is your right, but to me that appears an abdication of your responsibilities as a human.
let us all know when you've sufficiently educated yourself on every single social ill on the planet. then we'll talk.
this reminds me a lot of having an honest conversation with someone who is a devout christian. many times, you ask a simple question, they get all offended thinking you are making fun of them, when all you want is a straight answer. it's irritating and turns people off from wanting to be an ally or even just understanding their position.
See, the framing here is a little worrisome to me. The only thing to "understand" about transgender people/identity/rights is how not to dehumanize them, how to ensure their rights, how to support them. Anything beyond that is not a genuine effort to understand--it's an entree to judge and diminish. This isn't some anthropological exercise; it's real people facing real shit. So, frankly, being irritated and turned off probably says more about the learner than the teacher (in those instances).
yes, but as someone who isn't trans, I don't personally know that saying they "were a man" or "used to be a woman" is in any way dehumanizing. seriously, coming from an ignorant place, how the fuck would anyone know that's dehumanizing until we're told? it sounds factual to me. now, if someone were to tell me, "trans people don't identify is being a woman in a prior life because they always felt like a man inside", then I'm "oh, ok, I didn't realize that, I wont' say that again".
is it really that difficult to have that type of conversation instead of coming from a place of moral superiority?
I get where you're coming from and, again...my tone isn't always great...but what you're describing is ignorance. I don't mean that in an insulting way, but in the literal dictionary definition. Basically all marginalized people bear the brunt of others' lack of knowledge all the damn time. So, it's a tricky thing: whose responsibility is it to educate others about trans people?
I didn't just describe it as ignorance. I damn well said the word. I fully acknowledge when I'm ignorant on a subject, and this is one of those subjects.
it's the trans community's responsibility to educate others. and if you wish to present yourself as an advocate, also yours.
it's my responsibility as a decent person to listen.
See, this is where we disagree. Why do you think it is their responsibility to correct your ignorance?
Because they represent .6% of the population, so most of us have little to no interaction. How are we to learn?
Read? I mean, hell, I don't have interaction with Ernest Hemingway, but I still know a shit-ton about him.
Umm.. that's a dumb argument. Give it another shot.
How is that dumb? You asked a question and I answered it (albeit snarkily). How much reading have you done on trans people/rights/issues? Do you want them to come door-to-door?
It's not a priority of mine to dig deeply into their social obstacles. Put something up to vote to ensure civil rights, I'm all about it because I believe in that for every human. But because I've known exactly one, almost 20 years ago, and outside of this past 24 hours have never 'written' about this particular sub group, it's not something I actively engage with.
So, you don't want to know about them. Such is your right, but to me that appears an abdication of your responsibilities as a human.
No, I said it wasn't a priority. That's quite different than not wanting to know. This is just yet another example of your dogmatic insistence on insulting people, by ignoring what they are saying. You've done it for 24 straight hours here.
so how did you come to learn what you have been beating people over the head with. And dont try to deny that FACT.
prior to gaining this knowledge , what were your thoughts on this subject?
how long was the transition from one thought plane to the other?
I'm guessing for most here it's a subject we hadnt needed to think much on. However, since some more recent acceptance surrounding the lives of gay people, room has now been carved out for such conversations. Within that there will a fair amount of misspeaking (based on older ideas not malintent) until we come established language we ALL agree on. So until we can come understand this language set, how about you look at turning the volume down, especially on the accusations and labeling. It isnt helpful to furthering the discussion and our newly learned understanding of this subject and the issues surrounding it. Its new to us.
Browbeating may not be the intention but it surely is the result. And intentions are irrelevant in the face of the result.
Why does everyone have to agree?
I have apologized and attempted to modulate my tone for precisely the reason that closes your post.
As for your questions, I was previous ignorant, yes--would never deny that. I grew up in a very insulated, very white, very religious place, so I previously held abhorrent views. I learned about these issues during the latter part of my schooling and once I began my job. None of those answers obviate the responsibility of every individual to do everything within their power to treat trans people with respect from this moment forward.
Is that because surgery was not an option pre-colonization?
No, just recognizing that not all (some, perhaps?) two-spirited indigenous persons identify as transgender persons. From my understanding two-spirited aligns more closely with "gender fluid" because it denies the gender binary on which transgender identity is typically predicated.
Is that because surgery was not an option pre-colonization?
No, just recognizing that not all (some, perhaps?) two-spirited indigenous persons identify as transgender persons. From my understanding two-spirited aligns more closely with "gender fluid" because it denies the gender binary on which transgender identity is typically predicated.
So then, no North American persons identified as transgender in the early 1800, as the language didn't exist? I suppose this thread of thought supports this train of thought: "In the beginning... there was the word".
I actually had a long conversation with a professor of early American literature just yesterday on this topic. As a pretty strict Foucauldian, I was skeptical that transgender identity (as a discursive/subjective possibility) would go back very far. But, she had some very interesting points about the history of gender fluidity, cross dressing, early psychiatric reactions to people "misidentifying", etc. I came away less skeptical, but neither of us was aware of any extensive study in this area.
As for your last sentence, I'm must confess I don't understand it.
so how did you come to learn what you have been beating people over the head with. And dont try to deny that FACT.
prior to gaining this knowledge , what were your thoughts on this subject?
how long was the transition from one thought plane to the other?
I'm guessing for most here it's a subject we hadnt needed to think much on. However, since some more recent acceptance surrounding the lives of gay people, room has now been carved out for such conversations. Within that there will a fair amount of misspeaking (based on older ideas not malintent) until we come established language we ALL agree on. So until we can come understand this language set, how about you look at turning the volume down, especially on the accusations and labeling. It isnt helpful to furthering the discussion and our newly learned understanding of this subject and the issues surrounding it. Its new to us.
Browbeating may not be the intention but it surely is the result. And intentions are irrelevant in the face of the result.
Why does everyone have to agree?
I have apologized and attempted to modulate my tone for precisely the reason that closes your post.
As for your questions, I was previous ignorant, yes--would never deny that. I grew up in a very insulated, very white, very religious place, so I previously held abhorrent views. I learned about these issues during the latter part of my schooling and once I began my job. None of those answers obviate the responsibility of every individual to do everything within their power to treat trans people with respect from this moment forward.
so you were taught, you didn't take responsibility as a human to learn about it yourself in your free time.
Flight Risk out NOW!
www.headstonesband.com
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mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 35,779
so how did you come to learn what you have been beating people over the head with. And dont try to deny that FACT.
prior to gaining this knowledge , what were your thoughts on this subject?
how long was the transition from one thought plane to the other?
I'm guessing for most here it's a subject we hadnt needed to think much on. However, since some more recent acceptance surrounding the lives of gay people, room has now been carved out for such conversations. Within that there will a fair amount of misspeaking (based on older ideas not malintent) until we come established language we ALL agree on. So until we can come understand this language set, how about you look at turning the volume down, especially on the accusations and labeling. It isnt helpful to furthering the discussion and our newly learned understanding of this subject and the issues surrounding it. Its new to us.
Browbeating may not be the intention but it surely is the result. And intentions are irrelevant in the face of the result.
Why does everyone have to agree?
I have apologized and attempted to modulate my tone for precisely the reason that closes your post.
As for your questions, I was previous ignorant, yes--would never deny that. I grew up in a very insulated, very white, very religious place, so I previously held abhorrent views. I learned about these issues during the latter part of my schooling and once I began my job. None of those answers obviate the responsibility of every individual to do everything within their power to treat trans people with respect from this moment forward.
oh so you learned first THEN came to respect.
afford the rest of us the same opportunity.
your advocacy for these people leaves a lot to be desired.
so how about you link some pertinent articles and opinion pieces instead. That may be the most actual help you can offer here.
and leave your personal judgements about where we may be on our learning on this at the door.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
so how did you come to learn what you have been beating people over the head with. And dont try to deny that FACT.
prior to gaining this knowledge , what were your thoughts on this subject?
how long was the transition from one thought plane to the other?
I'm guessing for most here it's a subject we hadnt needed to think much on. However, since some more recent acceptance surrounding the lives of gay people, room has now been carved out for such conversations. Within that there will a fair amount of misspeaking (based on older ideas not malintent) until we come established language we ALL agree on. So until we can come understand this language set, how about you look at turning the volume down, especially on the accusations and labeling. It isnt helpful to furthering the discussion and our newly learned understanding of this subject and the issues surrounding it. Its new to us.
Browbeating may not be the intention but it surely is the result. And intentions are irrelevant in the face of the result.
Why does everyone have to agree?
I have apologized and attempted to modulate my tone for precisely the reason that closes your post.
As for your questions, I was previous ignorant, yes--would never deny that. I grew up in a very insulated, very white, very religious place, so I previously held abhorrent views. I learned about these issues during the latter part of my schooling and once I began my job. None of those answers obviate the responsibility of every individual to do everything within their power to treat trans people with respect from this moment forward.
so you were taught, you didn't take responsibility as a human to learn about it yourself in your free time.
Not really. When I say "during the latter part of my schooling and once I begin my job" I don't mean to suggest these things were part of my formal education. By that point, everything was independent research, so....yeah, I did learn about it on my own. Not so much during my "free time," but while shaping my identity as a scholar and a teacher.
so how did you come to learn what you have been beating people over the head with. And dont try to deny that FACT.
prior to gaining this knowledge , what were your thoughts on this subject?
how long was the transition from one thought plane to the other?
I'm guessing for most here it's a subject we hadnt needed to think much on. However, since some more recent acceptance surrounding the lives of gay people, room has now been carved out for such conversations. Within that there will a fair amount of misspeaking (based on older ideas not malintent) until we come established language we ALL agree on. So until we can come understand this language set, how about you look at turning the volume down, especially on the accusations and labeling. It isnt helpful to furthering the discussion and our newly learned understanding of this subject and the issues surrounding it. Its new to us.
Browbeating may not be the intention but it surely is the result. And intentions are irrelevant in the face of the result.
Why does everyone have to agree?
I have apologized and attempted to modulate my tone for precisely the reason that closes your post.
As for your questions, I was previous ignorant, yes--would never deny that. I grew up in a very insulated, very white, very religious place, so I previously held abhorrent views. I learned about these issues during the latter part of my schooling and once I began my job. None of those answers obviate the responsibility of every individual to do everything within their power to treat trans people with respect from this moment forward.
oh so you learned first THEN came to respect.
afford the rest of us the same opportunity.
your advocacy for these people leaves a lot to be desired.
so how about you link some pertinent articles and opinion pieces instead. That may be the most actual help you can offer here.
and leave your personal judgements about where we may be on our learning on this at the door.
Already posted a useful primer above. Have you finished with it?
Much of Indigenous history has been kept alive through oral-narration, or story-telling, as First Nation people had very few words. For example, grand-parent would be used instead of grand-mother/grand-father and hello and good-bye are the same. Who asides from Oscar Wilde has your colleague studied?
She studies early American literature, so not Oscar Wilde. Her primary research is on race and music in pre-Civil War lit, but she has secondary interests in other marginalized groups and medicine from the same period.
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mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 35,779
so how did you come to learn what you have been beating people over the head with. And dont try to deny that FACT.
prior to gaining this knowledge , what were your thoughts on this subject?
how long was the transition from one thought plane to the other?
I'm guessing for most here it's a subject we hadnt needed to think much on. However, since some more recent acceptance surrounding the lives of gay people, room has now been carved out for such conversations. Within that there will a fair amount of misspeaking (based on older ideas not malintent) until we come established language we ALL agree on. So until we can come understand this language set, how about you look at turning the volume down, especially on the accusations and labeling. It isnt helpful to furthering the discussion and our newly learned understanding of this subject and the issues surrounding it. Its new to us.
Browbeating may not be the intention but it surely is the result. And intentions are irrelevant in the face of the result.
Why does everyone have to agree?
I have apologized and attempted to modulate my tone for precisely the reason that closes your post.
As for your questions, I was previous ignorant, yes--would never deny that. I grew up in a very insulated, very white, very religious place, so I previously held abhorrent views. I learned about these issues during the latter part of my schooling and once I began my job. None of those answers obviate the responsibility of every individual to do everything within their power to treat trans people with respect from this moment forward.
oh so you learned first THEN came to respect.
afford the rest of us the same opportunity.
your advocacy for these people leaves a lot to be desired.
so how about you link some pertinent articles and opinion pieces instead. That may be the most actual help you can offer here.
and leave your personal judgements about where we may be on our learning on this at the door.
Already posted a useful primer above. Have you finished with it?
guess I didnt see it amongst your attacks and vitriol directed at the rest of us.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
so how did you come to learn what you have been beating people over the head with. And dont try to deny that FACT.
prior to gaining this knowledge , what were your thoughts on this subject?
how long was the transition from one thought plane to the other?
I'm guessing for most here it's a subject we hadnt needed to think much on. However, since some more recent acceptance surrounding the lives of gay people, room has now been carved out for such conversations. Within that there will a fair amount of misspeaking (based on older ideas not malintent) until we come established language we ALL agree on. So until we can come understand this language set, how about you look at turning the volume down, especially on the accusations and labeling. It isnt helpful to furthering the discussion and our newly learned understanding of this subject and the issues surrounding it. Its new to us.
Browbeating may not be the intention but it surely is the result. And intentions are irrelevant in the face of the result.
Why does everyone have to agree?
I have apologized and attempted to modulate my tone for precisely the reason that closes your post.
As for your questions, I was previous ignorant, yes--would never deny that. I grew up in a very insulated, very white, very religious place, so I previously held abhorrent views. I learned about these issues during the latter part of my schooling and once I began my job. None of those answers obviate the responsibility of every individual to do everything within their power to treat trans people with respect from this moment forward.
oh so you learned first THEN came to respect.
afford the rest of us the same opportunity.
your advocacy for these people leaves a lot to be desired.
so how about you link some pertinent articles and opinion pieces instead. That may be the most actual help you can offer here.
and leave your personal judgements about where we may be on our learning on this at the door.
Already posted a useful primer above. Have you finished with it?
guess I didnt see it amongst your attacks and vitriol directed at the rest of us.
so how did you come to learn what you have been beating people over the head with. And dont try to deny that FACT.
prior to gaining this knowledge , what were your thoughts on this subject?
how long was the transition from one thought plane to the other?
I'm guessing for most here it's a subject we hadnt needed to think much on. However, since some more recent acceptance surrounding the lives of gay people, room has now been carved out for such conversations. Within that there will a fair amount of misspeaking (based on older ideas not malintent) until we come established language we ALL agree on. So until we can come understand this language set, how about you look at turning the volume down, especially on the accusations and labeling. It isnt helpful to furthering the discussion and our newly learned understanding of this subject and the issues surrounding it. Its new to us.
Browbeating may not be the intention but it surely is the result. And intentions are irrelevant in the face of the result.
Why does everyone have to agree?
I have apologized and attempted to modulate my tone for precisely the reason that closes your post.
As for your questions, I was previous ignorant, yes--would never deny that. I grew up in a very insulated, very white, very religious place, so I previously held abhorrent views. I learned about these issues during the latter part of my schooling and once I began my job. None of those answers obviate the responsibility of every individual to do everything within their power to treat trans people with respect from this moment forward.
so you were taught, you didn't take responsibility as a human to learn about it yourself in your free time.
Not really. When I say "during the latter part of my schooling and once I begin my job" I don't mean to suggest these things were part of my formal education. By that point, everything was independent research, so....yeah, I did learn about it on my own. Not so much during my "free time," but while shaping my identity as a scholar and a teacher.
well then, I will say again: let us all know when you've sufficiently educated yourself on every single social ill on the planet. then we'll talk.
so how did you come to learn what you have been beating people over the head with. And dont try to deny that FACT.
prior to gaining this knowledge , what were your thoughts on this subject?
how long was the transition from one thought plane to the other?
I'm guessing for most here it's a subject we hadnt needed to think much on. However, since some more recent acceptance surrounding the lives of gay people, room has now been carved out for such conversations. Within that there will a fair amount of misspeaking (based on older ideas not malintent) until we come established language we ALL agree on. So until we can come understand this language set, how about you look at turning the volume down, especially on the accusations and labeling. It isnt helpful to furthering the discussion and our newly learned understanding of this subject and the issues surrounding it. Its new to us.
Browbeating may not be the intention but it surely is the result. And intentions are irrelevant in the face of the result.
Why does everyone have to agree?
I have apologized and attempted to modulate my tone for precisely the reason that closes your post.
As for your questions, I was previous ignorant, yes--would never deny that. I grew up in a very insulated, very white, very religious place, so I previously held abhorrent views. I learned about these issues during the latter part of my schooling and once I began my job. None of those answers obviate the responsibility of every individual to do everything within their power to treat trans people with respect from this moment forward.
so you were taught, you didn't take responsibility as a human to learn about it yourself in your free time.
Not really. When I say "during the latter part of my schooling and once I begin my job" I don't mean to suggest these things were part of my formal education. By that point, everything was independent research, so....yeah, I did learn about it on my own. Not so much during my "free time," but while shaping my identity as a scholar and a teacher.
well then, I will say again: let us all know when you've sufficiently educated yourself on every single social ill on the planet. then we'll talk.
C'mon, man. That's so tired. I fully admit I'm imperfect and I strive to learn new things every day. At the top of my list of things to learn is "how can I treat marginalized people better." If you're going to use my imperfection as an excuse for you not learning...well, there's not much I can do. In my experience, people who say they want to understand better are rarely serious. I'd hoped you were an exception.
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Kat
There's a lot to be said for nowhere. Posts: 4,772
Let's discuss the topic and not each other please.
so how did you come to learn what you have been beating people over the head with. And dont try to deny that FACT.
prior to gaining this knowledge , what were your thoughts on this subject?
how long was the transition from one thought plane to the other?
I'm guessing for most here it's a subject we hadnt needed to think much on. However, since some more recent acceptance surrounding the lives of gay people, room has now been carved out for such conversations. Within that there will a fair amount of misspeaking (based on older ideas not malintent) until we come established language we ALL agree on. So until we can come understand this language set, how about you look at turning the volume down, especially on the accusations and labeling. It isnt helpful to furthering the discussion and our newly learned understanding of this subject and the issues surrounding it. Its new to us.
Browbeating may not be the intention but it surely is the result. And intentions are irrelevant in the face of the result.
Why does everyone have to agree?
I have apologized and attempted to modulate my tone for precisely the reason that closes your post.
As for your questions, I was previous ignorant, yes--would never deny that. I grew up in a very insulated, very white, very religious place, so I previously held abhorrent views. I learned about these issues during the latter part of my schooling and once I began my job. None of those answers obviate the responsibility of every individual to do everything within their power to treat trans people with respect from this moment forward.
so you were taught, you didn't take responsibility as a human to learn about it yourself in your free time.
Not really. When I say "during the latter part of my schooling and once I begin my job" I don't mean to suggest these things were part of my formal education. By that point, everything was independent research, so....yeah, I did learn about it on my own. Not so much during my "free time," but while shaping my identity as a scholar and a teacher.
well then, I will say again: let us all know when you've sufficiently educated yourself on every single social ill on the planet. then we'll talk.
C'mon, man. That's so tired. I fully admit I'm imperfect and I strive to learn new things every day. At the top of my list of things to learn is "how can I treat marginalized people better." If you're going to use my imperfection as an excuse for you not learning...well, there's not much I can do. In my experience, people who say they want to understand better are rarely serious. I'd hoped you were an exception.
PC Principal is going to stifle discussion on this topic, so i'm out.
Honestly I would love to have some open discussions on this. I feel like a supporter, but I know there are parts of the issue I do not understand and likely do not talk about correctly. I always find it disheartening when people trying to get people to understand thinks they already should understand 100%.
Do you really want to understand? I literally JUST explained to you why his comments troubled me. I did not blast him at all; I corrected him. I'm happy to explain in more detail why what he said is problematic, but I don't think you want to hear.
I JUST explained why I think your hit and run with a 1 sentence comment was wrong.
PC Principal is going to stifle discussion on this topic, so i'm out.
Honestly I would love to have some open discussions on this. I feel like a supporter, but I know there are parts of the issue I do not understand and likely do not talk about correctly. I always find it disheartening when people trying to get people to understand thinks they already should understand 100%.
Do you really want to understand? I literally JUST explained to you why his comments troubled me. I did not blast him at all; I corrected him. I'm happy to explain in more detail why what he said is problematic, but I don't think you want to hear.
I don't need you to help me on that one I got it. He called the women his daughter. You nitpicked a sentence where he wasn't saying what you think he was saying. You aren't a help in this discussion it seems.
See, this is the thing: your default position is "I already know this." That's not the sign of someone who wants to learn.
You really read a lot into it. I’ll be very specific for you...
I don’t need your help in understanding that a trans person wants to be called “daughter” and not “son” if they are a trans women... I guess I could use your help in if saying trans woman is ok as I wasn’t really sure what term to use.
PC Principal is going to stifle discussion on this topic, so i'm out.
Honestly I would love to have some open discussions on this. I feel like a supporter, but I know there are parts of the issue I do not understand and likely do not talk about correctly. I always find it disheartening when people trying to get people to understand thinks they already should understand 100%.
Do you really want to understand? I literally JUST explained to you why his comments troubled me. I did not blast him at all; I corrected him. I'm happy to explain in more detail why what he said is problematic, but I don't think you want to hear.
I don't need you to help me on that one I got it. He called the women his daughter. You nitpicked a sentence where he wasn't saying what you think he was saying. You aren't a help in this discussion it seems.
See, this is the thing: your default position is "I already know this." That's not the sign of someone who wants to learn.
You really read a lot into it. I’ll be very specific for you...
I don’t need your help in understanding that a trans person wants to be called “daughter” and not “son” if they are a trans women... I guess I could use your help in if saying trans woman is ok as I wasn’t really sure what term to use.
Yes, that’s an appropriate construction. It’s covered in that link I posted.
I recall being interviewed by a newsperson when carrying a flag for EGALE in Vancouver's Pride Parade. The reporter asked if their was an air of celebration as this was the first year after the definition of marriage was changed from "between man and a woman" to "between two persons". The year prior, we were still petitioning and getting signatures to change marriage legislation. I told the lady that I would not be satisfied and celebrating until transgendered persons were included in BC's human rights, which eventually changed in 2016. I always wish I had replied to her: "Well, as a woman, do you celebrate your right to vote?"
Comments
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
www.headstonesband.com
I have apologized and attempted to modulate my tone for precisely the reason that closes your post.
As for your questions, I was previous ignorant, yes--would never deny that. I grew up in a very insulated, very white, very religious place, so I previously held abhorrent views. I learned about these issues during the latter part of my schooling and once I began my job. None of those answers obviate the responsibility of every individual to do everything within their power to treat trans people with respect from this moment forward.
As for your last sentence, I'm must confess I don't understand it.
www.headstonesband.com
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Here it is for you.
www.headstonesband.com
I don’t need your help in understanding that a trans person wants to be called “daughter” and not “son” if they are a trans women... I guess I could use your help in if saying trans woman is ok as I wasn’t really sure what term to use.