Abortion-Keep Legal, Yes or No?

PJPOWER said:

oftenreading said:

PJPOWER said:

JPPJ84 said:

cincybearcat said:

mickeyrat said:

until lungs have developed to oxygenate the blood either on its own or with medical help outside of the womb ,its not life. ..  

So, honest question, a man causes his girlfriend who is pregnant to lose the baby.  The woman wanted the baby.  Is it just assault?

Main difference is that the choice wasn’t hers

I think he is asking whether or not it should be considered murder....if life doesn’t begin until out of the womb and is just part of the woman’s body while inside.
Not life= “just” assault
Life=Murder
This isn’t all as black and white as some try to make it.   For the record, I am pro-choice to a certain degree because I know that this isn’t a black and white issue and feel that there are valid reasons for ending a pregnancy (a life) and completely invalid ones as well.  I do not agree with people being sexually irresponsible  and yet I do not agree with women being forced to carry a rapist’s baby. 

It's irrelevant whether you "agree with people being sexually irresponsible" - there have been unwanted pregnancies since time immemorial, women have sought out means to end those pregnancies for roughly the same amount of time, and they will continue to do so. Making abortion more difficult to get simply raises the harms associated with it, without doing anything to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies or abortions. Your stance is just sanctimonious punishment of a woman whose behaviour you disagree with, without taking into account all the other factors. 

I think you are being dismissive to my point that was exactly what you ended your comment with...all factors must be accounted for.  I cannot bring myself to be supportive of abortions on a whim.  
“Sanctimonious punishment of women”...please...Can I conclude that you are more on the “black and white” side of opinions with this issue?

oftenreading said:

PJPOWER said:

oftenreading said:

PJPOWER said:

JPPJ84 said:

cincybearcat said:

mickeyrat said:

until lungs have developed to oxygenate the blood either on its own or with medical help outside of the womb ,its not life. ..  

So, honest question, a man causes his girlfriend who is pregnant to lose the baby.  The woman wanted the baby.  Is it just assault?

Main difference is that the choice wasn’t hers

I think he is asking whether or not it should be considered murder....if life doesn’t begin until out of the womb and is just part of the woman’s body while inside.
Not life= “just” assault
Life=Murder
This isn’t all as black and white as some try to make it.   For the record, I am pro-choice to a certain degree because I know that this isn’t a black and white issue and feel that there are valid reasons for ending a pregnancy (a life) and completely invalid ones as well.  I do not agree with people being sexually irresponsible  and yet I do not agree with women being forced to carry a rapist’s baby. 

It's irrelevant whether you "agree with people being sexually irresponsible" - there have been unwanted pregnancies since time immemorial, women have sought out means to end those pregnancies for roughly the same amount of time, and they will continue to do so. Making abortion more difficult to get simply raises the harms associated with it, without doing anything to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies or abortions. Your stance is just sanctimonious punishment of a woman whose behaviour you disagree with, without taking into account all the other factors. 

I think you are being dismissive to my point that was exactly what you ended your comment with...all factors must be accounted for.  I cannot bring myself to be supportive of abortions on a whim.  
“Sanctimonious punishment of women”...please...Can I conclude that you are more on the “black and white” side of opinions with this issue?

Black and white? Yes, and so are you. It’s a binary decision - one is either for a woman’s right to control her own body, or not; either pro-choice, or not. There’s no such thing as “kind of an abortion”, so when it’s a yes or no decision, it’s black and white. 

OnWis97 said:

PJPOWER said:

mickeyrat said:

then theres this. read all of the provisions of the newest law from Georgia....

https://www.businessinsider.com/women-30-years-prison-miscarriage-georgia-abortion-2019-5

From the article:
“if they can prove the miscarriage was a result of the woman's own conduct, like drug or alcohol use, as Slate argued.”

Don’t some states consider it child abuse to do drugs while pregnant?  I know that babies born with drugs or alcohol in their system or experiencing withdrawals at birth are often removed from the parents and the mothers can face abuse charges.  

That has to be a frightening prospect for a black woman that is pregnant or wishes to be though...this seems like something that's going to turn into arbitrary interpretations and enforcement.  Anyone with faith that it's going to be administered justly (to whatever extent it's just in the first place) is pretty naive.  Women on trial because of a miscarriage are going to be treated like, well, rape victims.  Blood-thirst prosecuters will find about about their sexual past, fights they were in in high school, and other acts unrelated to the pregnancy. Will DUIs from their past be used as assumptions that they caused something to happen now?  Will they be jailed, or not, based on what juries think of them as people.  Will actual experts be ignored in favor of the ferver to get "justice" for the innocent unborn child?  This law is rooted in the idea of a fetus being more valuable than a woman (or girl).  Miscarriages are common and drug laws are used to lock black men up all the time.  Is this going to be the way to lock black women up?  It's pretty scary.

drakeheuer14 said:

Government shouldn't be able to tell me to buckle up, my body, my choice. Shouldn’t be able to tell me what drugs I can use, my body, my choice... 

When it comes to the creation and argument of life, I think the government should have some sort of say. We all know extreme bans are harmful, but just allowing them willy nilly? Not so great

PJ_Soul said:

drakeheuer14 said:

Government shouldn't be able to tell me to buckle up, my body, my choice. Shouldn’t be able to tell me what drugs I can use, my body, my choice... 

When it comes to the creation and argument of life, I think the government should have some sort of say. We all know extreme bans are harmful, but just allowing them willy nilly? Not so great

No, the government absolutely should not have any sort of say about what is going on INSIDE of someone's body. That is crazy.

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

drakeheuer14 said:

It has always amazed me that pro choice is more left leaning. You would think the compassion and progressiveness displayed would carry into this topic. But instead it is turned into a for or against women debate. 

I wish both genders could have babies. It especially shouldn’t just be the woman who has a say in the discussion to abort or not. It isn’t just your child. (Or child to be ...)

I don't understand how a discussion about making abortion illegal could happen without it turning towards a debate for or against women. Huh? Making abortion illegal IS against women, and the vast majority of those driving that change in government are men. So how do you figure the conversation would go any other way? And why does it amaze you that the pro-choice movement is left leaning? Because they get angry when the government tries to take control of women's bodies? I think that is a great reason to get angry and to start fighting ruthlessly. Do you expect the left to have compassion for those who want to hand the government control over women's bodies??

And yes, whether you wish it weren't the case or not, women are indeed the only ones whose bodies are at risk of being controlled, so obviously they are the only ones who have a say on whether to abort or not. That may not seem fair to some people, but it is what it is, too bad, so sad. Suggesting anything different again only really suggests that women's bodies aren't their own, and I hope it's obvious why that is not an option.

It's not "against women" for everyone. they just feel that abortion is murdering a human baby, which is a bigger deal to them than their own autonomy. i don't really get this "there is no debate" "it's all black and white" because it's not. 

i am pro choice because everyone should have their own choice, obviously. but many people believe that abortion is murder, no matter who it is. you can't see that what some perceive as murder to be more serious than having a baby, especially when pregnancy is 100% preventable? i can totally see that side, even though i don't necessarily agree with it.

now, if it were as a result of rape, then of course, that is a different story. 

I don't care if people don't think it's against women. It IS against women. Period. Those who don't "think" of it that way just aren't thinking enough in general - they are ignoring the most important issue.

well, then, there's really no need for this discussion to continue. 

*case closed*

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

drakeheuer14 said:

It has always amazed me that pro choice is more left leaning. You would think the compassion and progressiveness displayed would carry into this topic. But instead it is turned into a for or against women debate. 

I wish both genders could have babies. It especially shouldn’t just be the woman who has a say in the discussion to abort or not. It isn’t just your child. (Or child to be ...)

I don't understand how a discussion about making abortion illegal could happen without it turning towards a debate for or against women. Huh? Making abortion illegal IS against women, and the vast majority of those driving that change in government are men. So how do you figure the conversation would go any other way? And why does it amaze you that the pro-choice movement is left leaning? Because they get angry when the government tries to take control of women's bodies? I think that is a great reason to get angry and to start fighting ruthlessly. Do you expect the left to have compassion for those who want to hand the government control over women's bodies??

And yes, whether you wish it weren't the case or not, women are indeed the only ones whose bodies are at risk of being controlled, so obviously they are the only ones who have a say on whether to abort or not. That may not seem fair to some people, but it is what it is, too bad, so sad. Suggesting anything different again only really suggests that women's bodies aren't their own, and I hope it's obvious why that is not an option.

It's not "against women" for everyone. they just feel that abortion is murdering a human baby, which is a bigger deal to them than their own autonomy. i don't really get this "there is no debate" "it's all black and white" because it's not. 

i am pro choice because everyone should have their own choice, obviously. but many people believe that abortion is murder, no matter who it is. you can't see that what some perceive as murder to be more serious than having a baby, especially when pregnancy is 100% preventable? i can totally see that side, even though i don't necessarily agree with it.

now, if it were as a result of rape, then of course, that is a different story. 

I don't care if people don't think it's against women. It IS against women. Period. Those who don't "think" of it that way just aren't thinking enough in general - they are ignoring the most important issue.

well, then, there's really no need for this discussion to continue. 

*case closed*