Abortion-Keep Legal, Yes or No?

drakeheuer14

Maybe men should govern men and woman govern woman? Should work out perfectly... 

OnWis97 said:

drakeheuer14 said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

drakeheuer14 said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

HAHA

What are you laughing at? This is a pretty serious topic.

I'm pretty sure actual slaves would be pretty offended by that remark. 

I very much doubt it.

Has it been a long time since you read The Handmaid's Tale? Maybe you need a refresher, I don't know. I'm surprised you made that comment considering the context of this conversation. I would have thought you understood the slave comparison in the context of the abortion debate. I guess not.

Anyway, NOBODY is going to talk me out of or make me feel ashamed of being an absolutist when it comes to the this topic. There is zero room for compromise IMO, and I will always 100% be proud of being in extreme opposition. I will not tone it down, ever. The danger all this poses for women is very very real.

Everyone keeps mentioning the danger this poses for women. Outside of the context of abortion, what is the fear? 

My guess is a fear that it sets a sort of precedent. A "if they can do this, what's next?" sort of thing. 

That’s just it, what is next? I don’t think these men in the government are just full of glee to “take away a womans right.” 

I don't think it's that far from it.  There is nooooooooooooo way abortion would be illegal if men had to undergo the nine-month ordeal and then the birth process.  Women have been second class citizens throughout almost all of world history.  And when groups start to climb out of that position, traditional powers often like to kick them back down.  I think exerting control over women is a huge part of this.

Again why I wish men could also give birth. It would be a fun social experiment if nothing else. I think control over woman idea is just what it has morphed into.

PJ_Soul

drakeheuer14 said:

Maybe men should govern men and woman govern woman? Should work out perfectly... 

OnWis97 said:

drakeheuer14 said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

drakeheuer14 said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

HAHA

What are you laughing at? This is a pretty serious topic.

I'm pretty sure actual slaves would be pretty offended by that remark. 

I very much doubt it.

Has it been a long time since you read The Handmaid's Tale? Maybe you need a refresher, I don't know. I'm surprised you made that comment considering the context of this conversation. I would have thought you understood the slave comparison in the context of the abortion debate. I guess not.

Anyway, NOBODY is going to talk me out of or make me feel ashamed of being an absolutist when it comes to the this topic. There is zero room for compromise IMO, and I will always 100% be proud of being in extreme opposition. I will not tone it down, ever. The danger all this poses for women is very very real.

Everyone keeps mentioning the danger this poses for women. Outside of the context of abortion, what is the fear? 

My guess is a fear that it sets a sort of precedent. A "if they can do this, what's next?" sort of thing. 

That’s just it, what is next? I don’t think these men in the government are just full of glee to “take away a womans right.” 

I don't think it's that far from it.  There is nooooooooooooo way abortion would be illegal if men had to undergo the nine-month ordeal and then the birth process.  Women have been second class citizens throughout almost all of world history.  And when groups start to climb out of that position, traditional powers often like to kick them back down.  I think exerting control over women is a huge part of this.

Again why I wish men could also give birth. It would be a fun social experiment if nothing else. I think control over woman idea is just what it has morphed into.

This line of thinking makes no sense to me at all. It's like you want to ignore reality to make the topic easier for you or something.

PJPOWER

PJ_Soul said:

drakeheuer14 said:

Maybe men should govern men and woman govern woman? Should work out perfectly... 

OnWis97 said:

drakeheuer14 said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

drakeheuer14 said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

HAHA

What are you laughing at? This is a pretty serious topic.

I'm pretty sure actual slaves would be pretty offended by that remark. 

I very much doubt it.

Has it been a long time since you read The Handmaid's Tale? Maybe you need a refresher, I don't know. I'm surprised you made that comment considering the context of this conversation. I would have thought you understood the slave comparison in the context of the abortion debate. I guess not.

Anyway, NOBODY is going to talk me out of or make me feel ashamed of being an absolutist when it comes to the this topic. There is zero room for compromise IMO, and I will always 100% be proud of being in extreme opposition. I will not tone it down, ever. The danger all this poses for women is very very real.

Everyone keeps mentioning the danger this poses for women. Outside of the context of abortion, what is the fear? 

My guess is a fear that it sets a sort of precedent. A "if they can do this, what's next?" sort of thing. 

That’s just it, what is next? I don’t think these men in the government are just full of glee to “take away a womans right.” 

I don't think it's that far from it.  There is nooooooooooooo way abortion would be illegal if men had to undergo the nine-month ordeal and then the birth process.  Women have been second class citizens throughout almost all of world history.  And when groups start to climb out of that position, traditional powers often like to kick them back down.  I think exerting control over women is a huge part of this.

Again why I wish men could also give birth. It would be a fun social experiment if nothing else. I think control over woman idea is just what it has morphed into.

This line of thinking makes no sense to me at all. It's like you want to ignore reality to make the topic easier for you or something.

This is gold coming from the person that keeps referring to The Handmaiden’s Tale over and over as if it were truth.  As if the fictional story is something people should consider when discussing this topic.  Talk about jumping into something outside of the boundaries of reality!  I love The Handmaiden’s Tale as much as anyone, but if we’re talking fiction...can you imagine how the Avengers would have faired if Tony Stark had been aborted?  Lol
 

drakeheuer14

Nothing about this is easy. That is why, like yourself, I care so much about it. And I have grown as an individual to what my beliefs are today. Ask me a year ago and I would have been giddy about banning abortion altogether. I just can’t accept that what is at least going to be life means nothing. 

And sure I am a 22 year old white male. I know people love to throw that out like it means something, but it has nothing to do with taking away the rights of a woman or putting them down. And I only mention this because it seems that a mans opinion on this subject only matters to you if they agree with you. 

PJ_Soul

PJPOWER said:

PJ_Soul said:

drakeheuer14 said:

Maybe men should govern men and woman govern woman? Should work out perfectly... 

OnWis97 said:

drakeheuer14 said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

drakeheuer14 said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

HAHA

What are you laughing at? This is a pretty serious topic.

I'm pretty sure actual slaves would be pretty offended by that remark. 

I very much doubt it.

Has it been a long time since you read The Handmaid's Tale? Maybe you need a refresher, I don't know. I'm surprised you made that comment considering the context of this conversation. I would have thought you understood the slave comparison in the context of the abortion debate. I guess not.

Anyway, NOBODY is going to talk me out of or make me feel ashamed of being an absolutist when it comes to the this topic. There is zero room for compromise IMO, and I will always 100% be proud of being in extreme opposition. I will not tone it down, ever. The danger all this poses for women is very very real.

Everyone keeps mentioning the danger this poses for women. Outside of the context of abortion, what is the fear? 

My guess is a fear that it sets a sort of precedent. A "if they can do this, what's next?" sort of thing. 

That’s just it, what is next? I don’t think these men in the government are just full of glee to “take away a womans right.” 

I don't think it's that far from it.  There is nooooooooooooo way abortion would be illegal if men had to undergo the nine-month ordeal and then the birth process.  Women have been second class citizens throughout almost all of world history.  And when groups start to climb out of that position, traditional powers often like to kick them back down.  I think exerting control over women is a huge part of this.

Again why I wish men could also give birth. It would be a fun social experiment if nothing else. I think control over woman idea is just what it has morphed into.

This line of thinking makes no sense to me at all. It's like you want to ignore reality to make the topic easier for you or something.

This is gold coming from the person that keeps referring to The Handmaiden’s Tale over and over as if it were truth.  As if the fictional story is something people should consider when discussing this topic.  Talk about jumping into something outside of the boundaries of reality!  I love The Handmaiden’s Tale as much as anyone, but if we’re talking fiction...can you imagine how the Avengers would have faired if Tony Stark had been aborted?  Lol
 

I specifically pointed out that it is fiction, and put it in context dude, not as though it's non-fiction. What it does is provide a feel and adds to a larger perspective for the issue, and that is how I framed it. But yes, because it does present that, it is indeed something to consider, and there is nothing wrong with that. I've got an English Lit degree, and think that fiction, especially that which is written as a form of socio-political commentary, as this book was, provides a huge wealth of perspective when it comes to real life issues. It really does. You could say the same about Orwell's 1984, Huxley's Brave New World, and many, many other great works of socio-political fiction. There is a reason all these pro-choice protesters are dressing up as Handmaids you know. They aren't just being crazy.

And it's The Handmaid's Tale. Not Handmaiden's.

PJPOWER

PJ_Soul said:

PJPOWER said:

PJ_Soul said:

drakeheuer14 said:

Maybe men should govern men and woman govern woman? Should work out perfectly... 

OnWis97 said:

drakeheuer14 said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

drakeheuer14 said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

HAHA

What are you laughing at? This is a pretty serious topic.

I'm pretty sure actual slaves would be pretty offended by that remark. 

I very much doubt it.

Has it been a long time since you read The Handmaid's Tale? Maybe you need a refresher, I don't know. I'm surprised you made that comment considering the context of this conversation. I would have thought you understood the slave comparison in the context of the abortion debate. I guess not.

Anyway, NOBODY is going to talk me out of or make me feel ashamed of being an absolutist when it comes to the this topic. There is zero room for compromise IMO, and I will always 100% be proud of being in extreme opposition. I will not tone it down, ever. The danger all this poses for women is very very real.

Everyone keeps mentioning the danger this poses for women. Outside of the context of abortion, what is the fear? 

My guess is a fear that it sets a sort of precedent. A "if they can do this, what's next?" sort of thing. 

That’s just it, what is next? I don’t think these men in the government are just full of glee to “take away a womans right.” 

I don't think it's that far from it.  There is nooooooooooooo way abortion would be illegal if men had to undergo the nine-month ordeal and then the birth process.  Women have been second class citizens throughout almost all of world history.  And when groups start to climb out of that position, traditional powers often like to kick them back down.  I think exerting control over women is a huge part of this.

Again why I wish men could also give birth. It would be a fun social experiment if nothing else. I think control over woman idea is just what it has morphed into.

This line of thinking makes no sense to me at all. It's like you want to ignore reality to make the topic easier for you or something.

This is gold coming from the person that keeps referring to The Handmaiden’s Tale over and over as if it were truth.  As if the fictional story is something people should consider when discussing this topic.  Talk about jumping into something outside of the boundaries of reality!  I love The Handmaiden’s Tale as much as anyone, but if we’re talking fiction...can you imagine how the Avengers would have faired if Tony Stark had been aborted?  Lol
 

I specifically pointed out that it is fiction, and put it in context dude, not as though it's non-fiction. What it does is provide a feel and adds to a larger perspective for the issue, and that is how I framed it. But yes, because it does present that, it is indeed something to consider, and there is nothing wrong with that. I've got an English Lit degree, and think that fiction, especially that which is written as a form of socio-political commentary, as this book was, provides a huge wealth of perspective when it comes to real life issues. It really does. You could say the same about Orwell's 1984, Huxley's Brave New World, and many, many other great works of socio-political fiction. There is a reason all these pro-choice protesters are dressing up as Handmaids you know. They aren't just being crazy.

And it's The Handmaid's Tale. Not Handmaiden's.

This line of thinking makes no sense to me at all.  It’s like you are ignoring reality to make this topic easier for you or something.
Thanks for the clarification there professor, although  “handmaid” and “handmaiden” mean the exact same thing.

PJ_Soul

PJPOWER said:

PJ_Soul said:

PJPOWER said:

PJ_Soul said:

drakeheuer14 said:

Maybe men should govern men and woman govern woman? Should work out perfectly... 

OnWis97 said:

drakeheuer14 said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

drakeheuer14 said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

HAHA

What are you laughing at? This is a pretty serious topic.

I'm pretty sure actual slaves would be pretty offended by that remark. 

I very much doubt it.

Has it been a long time since you read The Handmaid's Tale? Maybe you need a refresher, I don't know. I'm surprised you made that comment considering the context of this conversation. I would have thought you understood the slave comparison in the context of the abortion debate. I guess not.

Anyway, NOBODY is going to talk me out of or make me feel ashamed of being an absolutist when it comes to the this topic. There is zero room for compromise IMO, and I will always 100% be proud of being in extreme opposition. I will not tone it down, ever. The danger all this poses for women is very very real.

Everyone keeps mentioning the danger this poses for women. Outside of the context of abortion, what is the fear? 

My guess is a fear that it sets a sort of precedent. A "if they can do this, what's next?" sort of thing. 

That’s just it, what is next? I don’t think these men in the government are just full of glee to “take away a womans right.” 

I don't think it's that far from it.  There is nooooooooooooo way abortion would be illegal if men had to undergo the nine-month ordeal and then the birth process.  Women have been second class citizens throughout almost all of world history.  And when groups start to climb out of that position, traditional powers often like to kick them back down.  I think exerting control over women is a huge part of this.

Again why I wish men could also give birth. It would be a fun social experiment if nothing else. I think control over woman idea is just what it has morphed into.

This line of thinking makes no sense to me at all. It's like you want to ignore reality to make the topic easier for you or something.

This is gold coming from the person that keeps referring to The Handmaiden’s Tale over and over as if it were truth.  As if the fictional story is something people should consider when discussing this topic.  Talk about jumping into something outside of the boundaries of reality!  I love The Handmaiden’s Tale as much as anyone, but if we’re talking fiction...can you imagine how the Avengers would have faired if Tony Stark had been aborted?  Lol
 

I specifically pointed out that it is fiction, and put it in context dude, not as though it's non-fiction. What it does is provide a feel and adds to a larger perspective for the issue, and that is how I framed it. But yes, because it does present that, it is indeed something to consider, and there is nothing wrong with that. I've got an English Lit degree, and think that fiction, especially that which is written as a form of socio-political commentary, as this book was, provides a huge wealth of perspective when it comes to real life issues. It really does. You could say the same about Orwell's 1984, Huxley's Brave New World, and many, many other great works of socio-political fiction. There is a reason all these pro-choice protesters are dressing up as Handmaids you know. They aren't just being crazy.

And it's The Handmaid's Tale. Not Handmaiden's.

This line of thinking makes no sense to me at all.  It’s like you are ignoring reality to make this topic easier for you or something.
Thanks for the clarification there professor, although  “handmaid” and “handmaiden” mean the exact same thing.

Lol. Obviously I'm not ignoring reality. Now you're just being kinda spiteful and snotty for no good reason.

I know they mean the same, but that isn't the title of the book and not what the women in that book are called.

PJ_Soul

Ha! Just saw this on FB right now. Timely!

HughFreakingDillon

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

HAHA

What are you laughing at? This is a pretty serious topic.

I'm pretty sure actual slaves would be pretty offended by that remark. 

I very much doubt it.

Has it been a long time since you read The Handmaid's Tale? Maybe you need a refresher, I don't know. I'm surprised you made that comment considering the context of this conversation. I would have thought you understood the slave comparison in the context of the abortion debate. I guess not.

Anyway, NOBODY is going to talk me out of or make me feel ashamed of being an absolutist when it comes to the this topic. There is zero room for compromise IMO, and I will always 100% be proud of being in extreme opposition. I will not tone it down, ever. The danger all this poses for women is very very real.

being a slave, beaten daily, watching your family members getting slaughtered, all because of the colour of your skin, and not being allowed to abort your fetus is the same. jesus christ. and I'M using hyperbole? lol

and I don't know where the bottom rant came from. literally no one gives a shit about talking you out of anything or toning it down. 

Are you speaking for other people now?

And there is a difference between hyperbole and metaphor, as you know. I think you also know that not all slaves fit into your very limited little description above. But personhood laws make people slaves of the state. That is the context, and I expected you to understand that. Oops.

keep moving the goal posts. 

first you argued that actual slaves would agree with you. now it's metaphor. which is it?

on second thought, never mind. I expect to have a level headed conversation in these forums, not someone shouting how right they are and shutting down any and all discussion. "oops". 

I mean, really, what is your intent here? you get all fucking hysterical out of nowhere about how you'll never have your mind changed. so what's the point of a discussion?

there isn't one. 

Excuse me while I go discuss the merits of watching Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure where it relates to the downfalls of the education system. 

Be excellent to each other.  

dignin

PJ_Soul said:

Ha! Just saw this on FB right now. Timely!

Too true.

Keep up the good fight pjsoul.

I get a kick out of all these supposed fiscal conservatives excited to pay to take care of all those unwanted babies. Especially those poorest of states. Makes a ton of sense.

PJ_Soul

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

HAHA

What are you laughing at? This is a pretty serious topic.

I'm pretty sure actual slaves would be pretty offended by that remark. 

I very much doubt it.

Has it been a long time since you read The Handmaid's Tale? Maybe you need a refresher, I don't know. I'm surprised you made that comment considering the context of this conversation. I would have thought you understood the slave comparison in the context of the abortion debate. I guess not.

Anyway, NOBODY is going to talk me out of or make me feel ashamed of being an absolutist when it comes to the this topic. There is zero room for compromise IMO, and I will always 100% be proud of being in extreme opposition. I will not tone it down, ever. The danger all this poses for women is very very real.

being a slave, beaten daily, watching your family members getting slaughtered, all because of the colour of your skin, and not being allowed to abort your fetus is the same. jesus christ. and I'M using hyperbole? lol

and I don't know where the bottom rant came from. literally no one gives a shit about talking you out of anything or toning it down. 

Are you speaking for other people now?

And there is a difference between hyperbole and metaphor, as you know. I think you also know that not all slaves fit into your very limited little description above. But personhood laws make people slaves of the state. That is the context, and I expected you to understand that. Oops.

keep moving the goal posts. 

first you argued that actual slaves would agree with you. now it's metaphor. which is it?

on second thought, never mind. I expect to have a level headed conversation in these forums, not someone shouting how right they are and shutting down any and all discussion. "oops". 

I mean, really, what is your intent here? you get all fucking hysterical out of nowhere about how you'll never have your mind changed. so what's the point of a discussion?

there isn't one. 

Excuse me while I go discuss the merits of watching Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure where it relates to the downfalls of the education system. 

Be excellent to each other.  

I'm not hysterical out of nowhere at all (and oh yay! Another woman being called hysterical, how ironic!) - you never even asked why I said it. I'm not about to explain it now, since you're picking up PJPOWERS tactics just to take a jab.

Bentleyspop

dignin said:

PJ_Soul said:

Ha! Just saw this on FB right now. Timely!

Too true.

Keep up the good fight pjsoul.

I get a kick out of all these supposed fiscal conservatives excited to pay to take care of all those unwanted babies. Especially those poorest of states. Makes a ton of sense.

I'm sure they are extra double excited to pay to take care of all those unwanted black and brown babies

Halifax2TheMax

Bentleyspop said:

dignin said:

PJ_Soul said:

Ha! Just saw this on FB right now. Timely!

Too true.

Keep up the good fight pjsoul.

I get a kick out of all these supposed fiscal conservatives excited to pay to take care of all those unwanted babies. Especially those poorest of states. Makes a ton of sense.

I'm sure they are extra double excited to pay to take care of all those unwanted black and brown babies

They ain’t paying for shit. Pro-life until you’re born. They’ll just expect blue states to transfer their wealth and then spend it on tax breaks for the wealthy.

mcgruff10

This pretty much sums me up lol 

PJ_Soul

mcgruff10 said:

This pretty much sums me up lol 

cincybearcat

mcgruff10 said:

This pretty much sums me up lol 

I’m anti-abortion, pro gun control and pro LGBT....so we have 1 thing in common

cincybearcat

Halifax2TheMax said:

Bentleyspop said:

dignin said:

PJ_Soul said:

Ha! Just saw this on FB right now. Timely!

Too true.

Keep up the good fight pjsoul.

I get a kick out of all these supposed fiscal conservatives excited to pay to take care of all those unwanted babies. Especially those poorest of states. Makes a ton of sense.

I'm sure they are extra double excited to pay to take care of all those unwanted black and brown babies

They ain’t paying for shit. Pro-life until you’re born. They’ll just expect blue states to transfer their wealth and then spend it on tax breaks for the wealthy.

This is unfortunately true for a large portion of people that are anti-abortion. It’s stupid and mind boggling along with abstinence only sex education. I mean...you have an opportunity to educate and set people down a path that won’t require an abortion...it’s so obvious.

PJ_Soul

cincybearcat said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Bentleyspop said:

dignin said:

PJ_Soul said:

Ha! Just saw this on FB right now. Timely!

Too true.

Keep up the good fight pjsoul.

I get a kick out of all these supposed fiscal conservatives excited to pay to take care of all those unwanted babies. Especially those poorest of states. Makes a ton of sense.

I'm sure they are extra double excited to pay to take care of all those unwanted black and brown babies

They ain’t paying for shit. Pro-life until you’re born. They’ll just expect blue states to transfer their wealth and then spend it on tax breaks for the wealthy.

This is unfortunately true for a large portion of people that are anti-abortion. It’s stupid and mind boggling along with abstinence only sex education. I mean...you have an opportunity to educate and set people down a path that won’t require an abortion...it’s so obvious.

There isn't any setting rape and incest victims down that path, but the laws are making abortions of pregnancies resulting from rape and incest illegal too.

BTW, IMO it's not pro-abortion and anti-abortion. Those terms seems misleading to me, particularly because nobody is pro-abortion. It's pro-choice and anti-choice.

cincybearcat

PJ_Soul said:

cincybearcat said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Bentleyspop said:

dignin said:

PJ_Soul said:

Ha! Just saw this on FB right now. Timely!

Too true.

Keep up the good fight pjsoul.

I get a kick out of all these supposed fiscal conservatives excited to pay to take care of all those unwanted babies. Especially those poorest of states. Makes a ton of sense.

I'm sure they are extra double excited to pay to take care of all those unwanted black and brown babies

They ain’t paying for shit. Pro-life until you’re born. They’ll just expect blue states to transfer their wealth and then spend it on tax breaks for the wealthy.

This is unfortunately true for a large portion of people that are anti-abortion. It’s stupid and mind boggling along with abstinence only sex education. I mean...you have an opportunity to educate and set people down a path that won’t require an abortion...it’s so obvious.

There isn't any setting rape and incest victims down that path, but the laws are making abortions of pregnancies resulting from rape and incest illegal too.

BTW, IMO it's not pro-abortion and anti-abortion. Those terms seems misleading to me, particularly because nobody is pro-abortion. It's pro-choice and anti-choice.

That is true about rape and invest. And even though I believe abortion to be murder at a certain point, I cannot be against it for victims of rape and incest. That is a tough thing to grapple with though...for me.

cincybearcat

PJ_Soul said:

cincybearcat said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Bentleyspop said:

dignin said:

PJ_Soul said:

Ha! Just saw this on FB right now. Timely!

Too true.

Keep up the good fight pjsoul.

I get a kick out of all these supposed fiscal conservatives excited to pay to take care of all those unwanted babies. Especially those poorest of states. Makes a ton of sense.

I'm sure they are extra double excited to pay to take care of all those unwanted black and brown babies

They ain’t paying for shit. Pro-life until you’re born. They’ll just expect blue states to transfer their wealth and then spend it on tax breaks for the wealthy.

This is unfortunately true for a large portion of people that are anti-abortion. It’s stupid and mind boggling along with abstinence only sex education. I mean...you have an opportunity to educate and set people down a path that won’t require an abortion...it’s so obvious.

There isn't any setting rape and incest victims down that path, but the laws are making abortions of pregnancies resulting from rape and incest illegal too.

BTW, IMO it's not pro-abortion and anti-abortion. Those terms seems misleading to me, particularly because nobody is pro-abortion. It's pro-choice and anti-choice.

Oh and honestly I don’t care what label you want to call it. I didn’t fix it when you use your terms, don’t pretend like yours are the only right ones. That’s fucking narcissistic.