Abortion-Keep Legal, Yes or No?

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  • benjs
    benjs Toronto, ON Posts: 9,375
    Thoughts_Arrive said:
    When I mean it's the woman's responsibility, I say that in reference to her having control of her body thus having control and responsibility to say no to sex and for the guy to respect that and back off. This is in the context of a budding relationship or a one night hook up. If you change the context to a de facto or married couple then yes the guy has equal responsibility in birth control. You people are making me out as some anti-women chauvinist when I am pro-women more than you think I am.
    Seems to me that a woman and a man have equal 'control' and 'responsibility' over consensual sex, whether one night hook-up or married couple. The understanding of the risk and ramifications are identical. With that said, in your opinion should a father have a financial obligation to pay child support and/or (arguably more disruptive to the woman's life) to help raise a child? Seems men get a free pass: they are 50% responsible for all pregnancy mistakes, yet regularly walk away from them with no ramifications to their lives.
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  • mace1229
    mace1229 Posts: 9,831

    dignin said:
    Hard to debate with someone who ignores all the evidence (or doesn't understand it) and won't produce any evidence to back up their misinformed belief. Seems to confuse research done by professionals as a "claim" made by me and also has a poor understanding of how healthcare works in their own country, not to mention others.

    Trump's world!!


    Hard to debate when one side defaults to name calling and belittling. You asked a question, I was the only one to honestly answer it. If you don’t want answers, then don’t ask.
    regardless of what you think, there is at least enough conflicting evidence to question a claim that fewer abortion laws results in fewer abortions.
    I never claimed more abortion laws results in fewer abortions. There’s some evidence that shows laws don’t matter. Refer to previous links if needed
  • Thoughts_Arrive
    Thoughts_Arrive Melbourne, Australia Posts: 15,165
    benjs said:
    Thoughts_Arrive said:
    When I mean it's the woman's responsibility, I say that in reference to her having control of her body thus having control and responsibility to say no to sex and for the guy to respect that and back off. This is in the context of a budding relationship or a one night hook up. If you change the context to a de facto or married couple then yes the guy has equal responsibility in birth control. You people are making me out as some anti-women chauvinist when I am pro-women more than you think I am.
    Seems to me that a woman and a man have equal 'control' and 'responsibility' over consensual sex, whether one night hook-up or married couple. The understanding of the risk and ramifications are identical. With that said, in your opinion should a father have a financial obligation to pay child support and/or (arguably more disruptive to the woman's life) to help raise a child? Seems men get a free pass: they are 50% responsible for all pregnancy mistakes, yet regularly walk away from them with no ramifications to their lives.
    No. Why would you assume that. WTF?
    Of course he should pay for child support and help raise the child.
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  • jnimhaoileoin
    jnimhaoileoin Baile Átha Cliath Posts: 2,682
    mace1229 said:
    Right “if you make abortions legal abortion rates go down.” Pretty much exactly what I was referring to and what I disagree with. I don’t see how that is any different than what I said. .

    And if you claim making abortions legal makes abortion rates go down, how is that not the same as making abortion illegal rates go up? If according to you abortion is legal = fewer abortions, then how is not making abortions illegal = more abortions not equally true?Exact same thing, 6 of one or half a dozen of the other. So what I was referring to was said. I didn’t keep track of who said it, but I am guessing it was you.
    if you really believe that, then what about making it legal would make someone not have an abortion, or on the flip side what about making it illegal would suddenly make them want one?

    I haven’t  seen any evidence to back that up. Only comparing abortions rates of South American countries to ours. That means pretty much nothing to me. As far as I can tell Ireland is the only advanced country that does not allow abortions, and there’s no evidence to even suggest their rates went up. If anything it’s lower than the rest of U.K.
    'the rest of the UK' - Jesus, sod what you think about abortion, the fact that you think we're in the UK is a far bigger problem!
  • Halifax2TheMax
    Halifax2TheMax Posts: 42,258
    edited March 2018
    mace1229 said:
    Halifax2TheMax said:
    mace1229 said:
    Right “if you make abortions legal abortion rates go down.” Pretty much exactly what I was referring to and what I disagree with. I don’t see how that is any different than what I said. .

    And if you claim making abortions legal makes abortion rates go down, how is that not the same as making abortion illegal rates go up? If according to you abortion is legal = fewer abortions, then how is not making abortions illegal = more abortions not equally true?Exact same thing, 6 of one or half a dozen of the other. So what I was referring to was said. I didn’t keep track of who said it, but I am guessing it was you.
    if you really believe that, then what about making it legal would make someone not have an abortion, or on the flip side what about making it illegal would suddenly make them want one?

    I haven’t  seen any evidence to back that up. Only comparing abortions rates of South American countries to ours. That means pretty much nothing to me. As far as I can tell Ireland is the only advanced country that does not allow abortions, and there’s no evidence to even suggest their rates went up. If anything it’s lower than the rest of U.K.
    Take the guess work out of your argument or link to your sources.

    https://www.guttmacher.org/fact-sheet/induced-abortion-worldwide

    https://www.cbsnews.com/pictures/abortion-around-the-world-where-are-rates-highest/


    I’m not sure why you follow everything I say with asking for a link. All I said is I haven’t seen evidence to support the claim that fewer abortion laws results in fewer abortions.
    i don’t think a link exists to what I can’t find. What link are you hope by for when I say I haven’t seen convincing evidence? But your first link actually supported my claim. It states there there is no significant link between abortion laws and number of abortions, which is what I was saying.
    im really confused how nearly every time I can say something that agrees with you, but you still seem to have a problem with what I’ve said. Very confusing actually.

    Your article backs up everything I said. Not sure what the issue is here.

    ”Abortion rates are similar in countries where abortion is highly restricted and where it is broadly legal. The abortion rate is 37 per 1,000 women in countries that prohibit abortion altogether or allow it only to save a woman’s life, and 34 per 1,000 in countries that allow abortion without restriction as to reason—a difference that is not significant.”
    Because facts matter. You argued that there’s only a comparison with South America and that “Ireland is the only advanced country that does not allow abortion.” You regularly state  things like the preceding without a link to actual data and then usually finish it up with how you heard it from your dad, cops and guns, or your family or personal experiences, education. Facts matter and they’re not too hard to find. Stop taking it personally when you get called out to back your theory or argument with facts and not supposition, guesses or anecdotes.

    http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/10/06/how-abortion-is-regulated-around-the-world/
    Post edited by Halifax2TheMax on
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  • cincybearcat
    cincybearcat Posts: 16,836
    hedonist said:
    Fellow women, take heed!  It's all on us.
    Well to be fair, isn't that what you are saying when you state it's the woman's body and her choice alone?  I mean, I'm not sure you can really have it both ways.  Although today you do as women make the choice for sex (let's not pretend it's the guy that is getting to determine when he gets it!), the woman make the choice to have the baby or not....and then the courts make the choice to have the man pay child support.


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  • benjs
    benjs Toronto, ON Posts: 9,375
    Thoughts_Arrive said:
    benjs said:
    Thoughts_Arrive said:
    When I mean it's the woman's responsibility, I say that in reference to her having control of her body thus having control and responsibility to say no to sex and for the guy to respect that and back off. This is in the context of a budding relationship or a one night hook up. If you change the context to a de facto or married couple then yes the guy has equal responsibility in birth control. You people are making me out as some anti-women chauvinist when I am pro-women more than you think I am.
    Seems to me that a woman and a man have equal 'control' and 'responsibility' over consensual sex, whether one night hook-up or married couple. The understanding of the risk and ramifications are identical. With that said, in your opinion should a father have a financial obligation to pay child support and/or (arguably more disruptive to the woman's life) to help raise a child? Seems men get a free pass: they are 50% responsible for all pregnancy mistakes, yet regularly walk away from them with no ramifications to their lives.
    No. Why would you assume that. WTF?
    Of course he should pay for child support and help raise the child.
    I didn’t assume - I asked. That’s why I put a question mark. Since you said that a woman bears control and responsibility for consensual sex, I don’t think it was at all implicit that the resulting pregnancy should result in shared responsibility and control. 
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    EV
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  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    Thoughts_Arrive said:
    oftenreading said:
    Thoughts_Arrive said:
    hedonist said:
    Fellow women, take heed!  It's all on us.
    Why must you be sarcastic?

    Because your suggestion that women rightly bear 100% of the responsibility for the consequences of an action involving both a man and a woman was worthy of sarcasm.
    No it wasn't. There are polite ways to debate.

    Come on. Earlier you made an offside joke about rape... and now you're talking about the 'polite ways' to debate?
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    mace1229 said:

    dignin said:
    Hard to debate with someone who ignores all the evidence (or doesn't understand it) and won't produce any evidence to back up their misinformed belief. Seems to confuse research done by professionals as a "claim" made by me and also has a poor understanding of how healthcare works in their own country, not to mention others.

    Trump's world!!


    Hard to debate when one side defaults to name calling and belittling. You asked a question, I was the only one to honestly answer it. If you don’t want answers, then don’t ask.
    regardless of what you think, there is at least enough conflicting evidence to question a claim that fewer abortion laws results in fewer abortions.
    I never claimed more abortion laws results in fewer abortions. There’s some evidence that shows laws don’t matter. Refer to previous links if needed

    All moot.

    If one hasn't evolved to the point where they appreciate an individual's choice in the matter... then they are stuck in the stone ages.

    Are all humans equal? I think of infants and small children in Africa who's bellies are bloated and they are soon for death. Wouldn't it make a lot of sense to try and help these creatures of God versus defend the 'goo' inside a woman as a result of an accidental pregnancy?

    The religious right is conflicted in many ways, but so self righteous and smug... they don't even know it: the befuddled herd.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • oftenreading
    oftenreading Victoria, BC Posts: 12,856
    cincybearcat said:
    hedonist said:
    Fellow women, take heed!  It's all on us.
    Well to be fair, isn't that what you are saying when you state it's the woman's body and her choice alone?  I mean, I'm not sure you can really have it both ways.  Although today you do as women make the choice for sex (let's not pretend it's the guy that is getting to determine when he gets it!), the woman make the choice to have the baby or not....and then the courts make the choice to have the man pay child support.


    This point ignores the reality of many, many relationships where in fact the man does decide when sex happens, often through coercion. 

    So the argument seems to be that a woman is 100% responsible for all consequences of sex, but can’t acrually make the choice about how to deal with the consequences of sex. 
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  • cincybearcat
    cincybearcat Posts: 16,836
    oftenreading said:
    cincybearcat said:
    hedonist said:
    Fellow women, take heed!  It's all on us.
    Well to be fair, isn't that what you are saying when you state it's the woman's body and her choice alone?  I mean, I'm not sure you can really have it both ways.  Although today you do as women make the choice for sex (let's not pretend it's the guy that is getting to determine when he gets it!), the woman make the choice to have the baby or not....and then the courts make the choice to have the man pay child support.


    This point ignores the reality of many, many relationships where in fact the man does decide when sex happens, often through coercion. 

    So the argument seems to be that a woman is 100% responsible for all consequences of sex, but can’t acrually make the choice about how to deal with the consequences of sex. 
    My post was mostly a joke. ;)

    I am not sure your point though, with abortion legal women are the only ones with a choice on the consequences.  without it both have consequences, albeit the mans in mostly financial and there are a lot of deadbeat “dads” out there. Nothing fair about how we allow men to get women pregnant with limited consequences. 
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  • mace1229
    mace1229 Posts: 9,831
    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:
    mace1229 said:

    dignin said:
    Hard to debate with someone who ignores all the evidence (or doesn't understand it) and won't produce any evidence to back up their misinformed belief. Seems to confuse research done by professionals as a "claim" made by me and also has a poor understanding of how healthcare works in their own country, not to mention others.

    Trump's world!!


    Hard to debate when one side defaults to name calling and belittling. You asked a question, I was the only one to honestly answer it. If you don’t want answers, then don’t ask.
    regardless of what you think, there is at least enough conflicting evidence to question a claim that fewer abortion laws results in fewer abortions.
    I never claimed more abortion laws results in fewer abortions. There’s some evidence that shows laws don’t matter. Refer to previous links if needed

    All moot.

    If one hasn't evolved to the point where they appreciate an individual's choice in the matter... then they are stuck in the stone ages.

    Are all humans equal? I think of infants and small children in Africa who's bellies are bloated and they are soon for death. Wouldn't it make a lot of sense to try and help these creatures of God versus defend the 'goo' inside a woman as a result of an accidental pregnancy?

    The religious right is conflicted in many ways, but so self righteous and smug... they don't even know it: the befuddled herd.
    I don’t know how any of that relates to the question that was asked and that I answered though?
  • tbergs
    tbergs Posts: 10,410
    Congratulations Iowa. The heartbeat ban is moving forward. Craziness.

    Iowa lawmakers pass the nation's most restrictive abortion ban -- as soon as a fetal heartbeat is detected

    It's a hopeless situation...
  • Degeneratefk
    Degeneratefk Posts: 3,123
    edited May 2018
    tbergs said:
    Congratulations Iowa. The heartbeat ban is moving forward. Craziness.

    Iowa lawmakers pass the nation's most restrictive abortion ban -- as soon as a fetal heartbeat is detected

    That is insanity. How can that even be legal?

    I'll answer my own question.  It's not legal. 
    Post edited by Degeneratefk on
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  • Halifax2TheMax
    Halifax2TheMax Posts: 42,258
    Degeneratefk said:
    tbergs said:
    Congratulations Iowa. The heartbeat ban is moving forward. Craziness.

    Iowa lawmakers pass the nation's most restrictive abortion ban -- as soon as a fetal heartbeat is detected

    That is insanity. How can that even be legal?

    I'll answer my own question.  It's not legal. 
    It’s a law to challenge Roe V. Wade to go to the Gorsuch court in hopes of having it overturned or allowing state’s “rights” to legislate as they wish.
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  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,680
    edited May 2018
    Degeneratefk said:
    tbergs said:
    Congratulations Iowa. The heartbeat ban is moving forward. Craziness.

    Iowa lawmakers pass the nation's most restrictive abortion ban -- as soon as a fetal heartbeat is detected

    That is insanity. How can that even be legal?

    I'll answer my own question.  It's not legal. 
    That will be decided in the SCOTUS .... I really hate to imagine what will happen if the SCOTUS deems it legal though. Could be like dominoes. Maybe it's time to invest in Draino stock. :fearful:
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  • Halifax2TheMax
    Halifax2TheMax Posts: 42,258
    And the South Carolina senate is poised to pass the most restrictive abortion law to date, effectively banning it. Don’t get knocked up in SC. Maybe they could fly a fetus flag instead of the Confederate flag?
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  • Bentleyspop
    Bentleyspop Craft Beer Brewery, Colorado Posts: 11,422
    Keep it legal
    Keep it safe
    Keep it affordable 
    Keep it available on demand
  • jnimhaoileoin
    jnimhaoileoin Baile Átha Cliath Posts: 2,682
    http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2018/05/01/women-of-ireland-to-watch-handmaids-tale-to-escape-grim-reality/?utm_source=WWN_Facebook_Page&utm_medium=Facebook&utm_campaign=Social_Link&utm_content=Article
  • cincybearcat
    cincybearcat Posts: 16,836
    https://www-m.cnn.com/2018/05/05/opinions/supporting-abortion-is-pro-life-opinion-campoamor/index.html

    Im anti-abortion and as such you can imagine I think this article is 100% nuts. Calling for killing babies to save lives is just nuts. But as I’ve read here, I’m sure many agree with the sentiments of this article.

    i will say that I personally have reached a point where I believe this issue has been settled as to law in the US.  I don’t particularly like crazy laws just to challenge Roe v Wade anymore, because I don’t think it helps. I wish anti-abortion activist would flip a switch and instead of just looking to deny abortions, work to solve the issue of unintended pregnancy. Cause that’s the path to a much reduced abortion rate.

    all that said, articles like this actually still piss me off and are obviously written for people that just agree already with the author. It’s nonsense to compare # of deaths in the abortion debate, because if you believe it’s life, abortion Always causes more deaths than not having abortion. 
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