PJ_Soul said:

I've already tried to talk to him about it, but he's really in denial about his condition a lot of time... Even when he's not in denial he's in denial, lol. He gets very defensive any time I try to suggest to him that maybe what he's thinking isn't the best route to take. I had to back off on trying to make suggestions like that just to save the friendship, honestly. I think just talking about it like that sets off his anxiety and he starts getting upset, then tries to hide that it's triggering him, and it gets just really weird. I'm at a bit of a loss... I think I've kind of done everything I can do. I've just had to back off and let him make his own mistakes. At this point all I can really do to help him is not judge him... People judging him is probably his greatest fear and I think that largely keeps him in a cycle of anxiety.

unfortunately, it really is true, that you can't help someone who doesn't want help. you can try, but like you said, it can often end up fracturing the relationship. 

people like me and possibly him honestly do not believe that anyone can possibly understand what is in our heads, so taking advice from someone who doesn't "get it" (in our minds) is impossible. 

what I might suggest is writing a letter. it's less confrontational and gets out all your thoughts without being interrupted. the only problem is, the written word can be taken a meriad of differnet ways depending the frame of mind the reader is in. not a bad idea to let him read it in your company so he can clarify things in the letter immediately (if he so wishes to) instead of letting it stew in him to the point of a possible misunderstanding being catastrophic to your friendship. 

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

my wife asked me last night if it helps to think of stuff I'm thankful for to take my mind off of it. bless her heart, but she is so far out of her element it really made me realize why she has been so helpless through all of this. she really has no idea.

part of me is glad she doesn't. 

I get the impression that most people who haven't dealt with it themselves simply cannot wrap their heads around the fact that you can't just will or think yourself out of it like that. Like, I don't think they're capable of understanding that no matter how you explain it to them.

I agree.  That’s why professional help is usually the best.  But there are terrible therapist as well...it’s a process...

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

I've already tried to talk to him about it, but he's really in denial about his condition a lot of time... Even when he's not in denial he's in denial, lol. He gets very defensive any time I try to suggest to him that maybe what he's thinking isn't the best route to take. I had to back off on trying to make suggestions like that just to save the friendship, honestly. I think just talking about it like that sets off his anxiety and he starts getting upset, then tries to hide that it's triggering him, and it gets just really weird. I'm at a bit of a loss... I think I've kind of done everything I can do. I've just had to back off and let him make his own mistakes. At this point all I can really do to help him is not judge him... People judging him is probably his greatest fear and I think that largely keeps him in a cycle of anxiety.

unfortunately, it really is true, that you can't help someone who doesn't want help. you can try, but like you said, it can often end up fracturing the relationship. 

people like me and possibly him honestly do not believe that anyone can possibly understand what is in our heads, so taking advice from someone who doesn't "get it" (in our minds) is impossible. 

what I might suggest is writing a letter. it's less confrontational and gets out all your thoughts without being interrupted. the only problem is, the written word can be taken a meriad of differnet ways depending the frame of mind the reader is in. not a bad idea to let him read it in your company so he can clarify things in the letter immediately (if he so wishes to) instead of letting it stew in him to the point of a possible misunderstanding being catastrophic to your friendship. 

That is a good suggestion, but you know, he's got a wife, so I'm just going to let her deal with it on that level (or not). I am totally there for him to talk to whenever he feels like it, and he does, but he's not doing it to get feedback. He just wants to vent. I'm just going to let him do it (at least until I'm actually worried that he's going to kill himself... He has been there once before, but I don't think he's in that place anymore, or not right now, anyway).

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

I've already tried to talk to him about it, but he's really in denial about his condition a lot of time... Even when he's not in denial he's in denial, lol. He gets very defensive any time I try to suggest to him that maybe what he's thinking isn't the best route to take. I had to back off on trying to make suggestions like that just to save the friendship, honestly. I think just talking about it like that sets off his anxiety and he starts getting upset, then tries to hide that it's triggering him, and it gets just really weird. I'm at a bit of a loss... I think I've kind of done everything I can do. I've just had to back off and let him make his own mistakes. At this point all I can really do to help him is not judge him... People judging him is probably his greatest fear and I think that largely keeps him in a cycle of anxiety.

unfortunately, it really is true, that you can't help someone who doesn't want help. you can try, but like you said, it can often end up fracturing the relationship. 

people like me and possibly him honestly do not believe that anyone can possibly understand what is in our heads, so taking advice from someone who doesn't "get it" (in our minds) is impossible. 

what I might suggest is writing a letter. it's less confrontational and gets out all your thoughts without being interrupted. the only problem is, the written word can be taken a meriad of differnet ways depending the frame of mind the reader is in. not a bad idea to let him read it in your company so he can clarify things in the letter immediately (if he so wishes to) instead of letting it stew in him to the point of a possible misunderstanding being catastrophic to your friendship. 

That is a good suggestion, but you know, he's got a wife, so I'm just going to let her deal with it on that level (or not). I am totally there for him to talk to whenever he feels like it, and he does, but he's not doing it to get feedback. He just wants to vent. I'm just going to let him do it (at least until I'm actually worried that he's going to kill himself... He has been there once before, but I don't think he's in that place anymore, or not right now, anyway).

I don't know what your relationship is to his wife, but mentioning something to her might lift a weight off her shoulders too. I know my shit isn't easy on my wife, but she doesn't feel comfortable talking to people we both know about it, even though I've given her my blessing to so. Giving her that outlet might help her like you wouldn't believe. 

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

I've already tried to talk to him about it, but he's really in denial about his condition a lot of time... Even when he's not in denial he's in denial, lol. He gets very defensive any time I try to suggest to him that maybe what he's thinking isn't the best route to take. I had to back off on trying to make suggestions like that just to save the friendship, honestly. I think just talking about it like that sets off his anxiety and he starts getting upset, then tries to hide that it's triggering him, and it gets just really weird. I'm at a bit of a loss... I think I've kind of done everything I can do. I've just had to back off and let him make his own mistakes. At this point all I can really do to help him is not judge him... People judging him is probably his greatest fear and I think that largely keeps him in a cycle of anxiety.

unfortunately, it really is true, that you can't help someone who doesn't want help. you can try, but like you said, it can often end up fracturing the relationship. 

people like me and possibly him honestly do not believe that anyone can possibly understand what is in our heads, so taking advice from someone who doesn't "get it" (in our minds) is impossible. 

what I might suggest is writing a letter. it's less confrontational and gets out all your thoughts without being interrupted. the only problem is, the written word can be taken a meriad of differnet ways depending the frame of mind the reader is in. not a bad idea to let him read it in your company so he can clarify things in the letter immediately (if he so wishes to) instead of letting it stew in him to the point of a possible misunderstanding being catastrophic to your friendship. 

That is a good suggestion, but you know, he's got a wife, so I'm just going to let her deal with it on that level (or not). I am totally there for him to talk to whenever he feels like it, and he does, but he's not doing it to get feedback. He just wants to vent. I'm just going to let him do it (at least until I'm actually worried that he's going to kill himself... He has been there once before, but I don't think he's in that place anymore, or not right now, anyway).

I don't know what your relationship is to his wife, but mentioning something to her might lift a weight off her shoulders too. I know my shit isn't easy on my wife, but she doesn't feel comfortable talking to people we both know about it, even though I've given her my blessing to so. Giving her that outlet might help her like you wouldn't believe. 

I do know her, but since they moved way out to the 'burbs I haven't even seen her or talked to her for at least a few years, and I think it would be pretty weird for me to contact her about that. But she's smart, and she's a nurse. She's also supporting him in that she's going back to work full time in a month so that he can deal with his shit and not work (I'm not convinced this is a good plan, but they've made up their minds). He also has a doctor involved, and has seen a therapist (not too sure if he's still going to that, but maybe). Honestly, any more input from me isn't being requested and I don't think is wanted at all. Really, I've tried for quite a long time now... the reaction to it is pretty bad. He really isn't into me doing it.
On the bright side, he is self-aware enough or at least pro-active enough to seek help if he becomes suicidal again, I think. The last time it happened he actually just walked out of work and drove himself to the hospital and checked himself into the psych ward.

Thanks! So do I.... I'll have to wait and see how this bizarre 'working part time in a deli maybe' plan works out.

They're all too self absorbed on being assholes to each other in various sports threads.