HughFreakingDillon said:

F Me In The Brain said:

do you really think the majority of people, or even a minority, who sing the national anthem at sporting events have any clue what the connection is of patriotism to sports? no, they just do it because it's expected. like saying the lord's prayer at thanksgiving, or taking your hat off during the anthem. americans and canadians alike.

Yes, I do think the majority of people who sing the national anthem at sporting events can tell you why they sing the anthem and why they believe in patriotism.  The conversation of if it should be performed at sporting events is a different topic...

We can agree to disagree on the rest.  One of the first things I did after buying my house was to dig a hole, get a flagpole & a flag, light that pole up, and proudly run the flag up the flagpole. 
The dictionary can join me in disagreeing with your definition of patriotism...but it is certainly up to you to make up definitions to words that fit what you think they should mean.

Atari dashboard by richter.  (That means "Have A Great Day!" in my dictionary.  ) 

Definition of patriotism

:love for or devotion to one's country

what did I say that is untrue?

pjhawks said:

F Me In The Brain said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

F Me In The Brain said:

Fair enough, I get what you are saying.

I think there are some who would say that Patriotism is something that goes as deeply as an emotion can go. 

Strong support for one's country does not necessarily mean you support a 'cultivation of fear and ignorance', and I would put out there that Patriotism does not mean that you feel 'you are better for no other reason that being born in a certain geographic area.' 

Hey, you can believe what you want.  My opinion is that your statement is a pretty harsh judgement on a big group of people (people who would define themselves as 'Patriotic') and that it might be slightly antagonistic toward many, many people.  This sort of rhetoric is part of the problem today, in my opinion. 

As stated before here, I do not think that Mr Kaepernick shows any lack of Patriotism because he chooses to kneel in silent protest during the playing of the National Anthem at a sporting event.  Based on his actions, I believe he has a very strong support for his country....he also is working to draw attention to some things he feels need to be changed in his country. 

we are having a discussion on a message board. I'm not walking around with a sign on my back saying "patriots are idiots". 

I can understand patriotism if you are, say, a military family. hey, you gotta have a strong emotional connection to your country if you are willing to die for it. But I'm talking about the average citizen who sing the national anthem at a sporting event without even considering why. or telling others they need to take their hat off, and when you ask why, all they can utter is "it's disrespectful", but they have zero idea why. 

I don't know if Kaepernick is a patriot or not. I don't think his protest has anything to do with it either way. all he's highlighting is the gross inequality in the US towards minorities. 

Why is a discussion here different than how you speak with people irl?

What if (for example) you just love your country because you can look at your grandparents and see that 3 out of 4 of them came to this country from other places?  (Italy x2, PR x1)  The 4th grandparent saw his parents come from some other country.  (Ireland)
They all came to this country to try and live better lives -- for themselves, and for their families.
Each generation has done a better than the previous one when it comes to jobs, financial stability, and education....to the point where I do things now for my family that I am sure my grandparents, were they alive, would be blown away by. 
This is because of the opportunity this country allowed hard working people who took advantage of the right conditions for them, personally, and parlayed that into a better future.
I love my country.  I am puzzled by the direction we are taking, and certainly dismayed by the actions of some of our citizens.

It is my opinion that not every immigrant had the same journey as my family did.  I respect their opinions about their country, they are no doubt shaped by the realities that they (and theirs) experienced.

Your assumption is that the "average citizen" would not have any idea as to how to express themselves relative to their beliefs.  I again find this, imo, to be presumptuous and inflammatory.  It is your right to feel that way -- and to tell others you think so little of them -- but I do not happen to agree.  Not sure what you are basing the opinion on, although I guess it does not matter.  It is what you believe & real to you.  I think if you came here, went to a sporting event, and asked people, that they would be able to tell you why they stand and salute....and why the symbol of this country is important to them.

I think if you read some of what Kaepernick has shared, he has expressed his admiration of our troops, his appreciation for what this country has given to him & many others...and at the same time that he is certainly trying to address how some are treated & how this treatment (in his opinion) is widely ignored.
He initially sat during the anthem and then moved to the sideline and kneeled, saying he felt that was showing his respect for the flag & also his belief in others noting the need for changes.  (Paraphrasing, certainly, that is my recollection of what he indicated at the time.)

Overall, it seems we agree in supporting his right to kneel, his right to support causes he believes in...we disconnect on the definition of Patriotism and the belief system the 'Average American' has when it comes to Patriotism.   That is OK.  You can lump Patriots all together in your beliefs.

I will continue to practice Pastafarianism as my religion (jokingly) & also to stand and salute the symbol of our country, its great history, the people who have fought for us & continue to serve, and what that means to me & has meant to my family.  (And, to support the rights of Kaepernick to try and cause positive change in our society, where I also agree we need many positive changes.) 

It makes me smile to know that some of our neighbors to the north are so concerned about us, while at the same time thinking that the Patriots in the US are such ignorant followers of our leaders, cheering on the cultivation of ignorance....all the while thinking we are better than everyone else because of where we were born. 

I am a Patriot.  I strongly support the USA.  I do not agree with Donald J. Trump...I did not vote for Donald J. Trump.  I still strongly support and love the USA, many flaws though we have.

Keep on doing what you believe in Kaepernick, we all need to try to make it a better world...day by day.
 

very well said.  I don't quite understand why it bothers non-Americans that a lot of people in this country love their country and are patriotic towards it. 

F Me In The Brain said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

F Me In The Brain said:

do you really think the majority of people, or even a minority, who sing the national anthem at sporting events have any clue what the connection is of patriotism to sports? no, they just do it because it's expected. like saying the lord's prayer at thanksgiving, or taking your hat off during the anthem. americans and canadians alike.

Yes, I do think the majority of people who sing the national anthem at sporting events can tell you why they sing the anthem and why they believe in patriotism.  The conversation of if it should be performed at sporting events is a different topic...

We can agree to disagree on the rest.  One of the first things I did after buying my house was to dig a hole, get a flagpole & a flag, light that pole up, and proudly run the flag up the flagpole. 
The dictionary can join me in disagreeing with your definition of patriotism...but it is certainly up to you to make up definitions to words that fit what you think they should mean.

Atari dashboard by richter.  (That means "Have A Great Day!" in my dictionary.  ) 

that wasn't what I asked. I asked you think people knew why they sing the national anthem SPECIFICALLY at sporting events? I stand by my assertion that the vast majority have zero clue. 

OK...I do not have any idea if most people would be able to come up with the reason that you feel is true as to why the national anthem is sung before sporting events, specifically.  My guess is that the answer most people would give would be 'to honor our country' and I can understand that.  I think that there are other answers that could also be given that could be correct....and recruitment and/or budget support associated with the military could certainly be one of them. 
So if the NFL (and others) are shills for the military does that mean that people should not stand and salute the flag they believe in, if this is what they want to do?  Doesn't mean they are mindless zombies. 

HughFreakingDillon said:

pjhawks said:

F Me In The Brain said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

F Me In The Brain said:

Fair enough, I get what you are saying.

I think there are some who would say that Patriotism is something that goes as deeply as an emotion can go. 

Strong support for one's country does not necessarily mean you support a 'cultivation of fear and ignorance', and I would put out there that Patriotism does not mean that you feel 'you are better for no other reason that being born in a certain geographic area.' 

Hey, you can believe what you want.  My opinion is that your statement is a pretty harsh judgement on a big group of people (people who would define themselves as 'Patriotic') and that it might be slightly antagonistic toward many, many people.  This sort of rhetoric is part of the problem today, in my opinion. 

As stated before here, I do not think that Mr Kaepernick shows any lack of Patriotism because he chooses to kneel in silent protest during the playing of the National Anthem at a sporting event.  Based on his actions, I believe he has a very strong support for his country....he also is working to draw attention to some things he feels need to be changed in his country. 

we are having a discussion on a message board. I'm not walking around with a sign on my back saying "patriots are idiots". 

I can understand patriotism if you are, say, a military family. hey, you gotta have a strong emotional connection to your country if you are willing to die for it. But I'm talking about the average citizen who sing the national anthem at a sporting event without even considering why. or telling others they need to take their hat off, and when you ask why, all they can utter is "it's disrespectful", but they have zero idea why. 

I don't know if Kaepernick is a patriot or not. I don't think his protest has anything to do with it either way. all he's highlighting is the gross inequality in the US towards minorities. 

Why is a discussion here different than how you speak with people irl?

What if (for example) you just love your country because you can look at your grandparents and see that 3 out of 4 of them came to this country from other places?  (Italy x2, PR x1)  The 4th grandparent saw his parents come from some other country.  (Ireland)
They all came to this country to try and live better lives -- for themselves, and for their families.
Each generation has done a better than the previous one when it comes to jobs, financial stability, and education....to the point where I do things now for my family that I am sure my grandparents, were they alive, would be blown away by. 
This is because of the opportunity this country allowed hard working people who took advantage of the right conditions for them, personally, and parlayed that into a better future.
I love my country.  I am puzzled by the direction we are taking, and certainly dismayed by the actions of some of our citizens.

It is my opinion that not every immigrant had the same journey as my family did.  I respect their opinions about their country, they are no doubt shaped by the realities that they (and theirs) experienced.

Your assumption is that the "average citizen" would not have any idea as to how to express themselves relative to their beliefs.  I again find this, imo, to be presumptuous and inflammatory.  It is your right to feel that way -- and to tell others you think so little of them -- but I do not happen to agree.  Not sure what you are basing the opinion on, although I guess it does not matter.  It is what you believe & real to you.  I think if you came here, went to a sporting event, and asked people, that they would be able to tell you why they stand and salute....and why the symbol of this country is important to them.

I think if you read some of what Kaepernick has shared, he has expressed his admiration of our troops, his appreciation for what this country has given to him & many others...and at the same time that he is certainly trying to address how some are treated & how this treatment (in his opinion) is widely ignored.
He initially sat during the anthem and then moved to the sideline and kneeled, saying he felt that was showing his respect for the flag & also his belief in others noting the need for changes.  (Paraphrasing, certainly, that is my recollection of what he indicated at the time.)

Overall, it seems we agree in supporting his right to kneel, his right to support causes he believes in...we disconnect on the definition of Patriotism and the belief system the 'Average American' has when it comes to Patriotism.   That is OK.  You can lump Patriots all together in your beliefs.

I will continue to practice Pastafarianism as my religion (jokingly) & also to stand and salute the symbol of our country, its great history, the people who have fought for us & continue to serve, and what that means to me & has meant to my family.  (And, to support the rights of Kaepernick to try and cause positive change in our society, where I also agree we need many positive changes.) 

It makes me smile to know that some of our neighbors to the north are so concerned about us, while at the same time thinking that the Patriots in the US are such ignorant followers of our leaders, cheering on the cultivation of ignorance....all the while thinking we are better than everyone else because of where we were born. 

I am a Patriot.  I strongly support the USA.  I do not agree with Donald J. Trump...I did not vote for Donald J. Trump.  I still strongly support and love the USA, many flaws though we have.

Keep on doing what you believe in Kaepernick, we all need to try to make it a better world...day by day.
 

very well said.  I don't quite understand why it bothers non-Americans that a lot of people in this country love their country and are patriotic towards it. 

it doesn't bother me. nothing I said points to it "bothering" me. 

HughFreakingDillon said:

pjhawks said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

I was out for lunch with a buddy, and golf was on the big screen. I asked him "do the play the national anthem at the first hole in golf? is Tiger Woods kneeling? nope. why in some sports and not all? right, because they know they aren't recruiting golf fans to the military with false patriotism. wrong demographic". 

aren't you Canadian?  is it false patriotism when the Canadian teams do it?

yes it is. I think it's stupid no matter where you live. unfortunately, many people in canada think the way to move culturally is to mimic whatever the US does. I'd like canada to stop acting like America's little brother and get our own identity. 

the CFL has adopted military appreciation day, and we have jet flyovers after the anthem; it's ridiculousness. 

pjhawks said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

pjhawks said:

F Me In The Brain said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

F Me In The Brain said:

Fair enough, I get what you are saying.

I think there are some who would say that Patriotism is something that goes as deeply as an emotion can go. 

Strong support for one's country does not necessarily mean you support a 'cultivation of fear and ignorance', and I would put out there that Patriotism does not mean that you feel 'you are better for no other reason that being born in a certain geographic area.' 

Hey, you can believe what you want.  My opinion is that your statement is a pretty harsh judgement on a big group of people (people who would define themselves as 'Patriotic') and that it might be slightly antagonistic toward many, many people.  This sort of rhetoric is part of the problem today, in my opinion. 

As stated before here, I do not think that Mr Kaepernick shows any lack of Patriotism because he chooses to kneel in silent protest during the playing of the National Anthem at a sporting event.  Based on his actions, I believe he has a very strong support for his country....he also is working to draw attention to some things he feels need to be changed in his country. 

we are having a discussion on a message board. I'm not walking around with a sign on my back saying "patriots are idiots". 

I can understand patriotism if you are, say, a military family. hey, you gotta have a strong emotional connection to your country if you are willing to die for it. But I'm talking about the average citizen who sing the national anthem at a sporting event without even considering why. or telling others they need to take their hat off, and when you ask why, all they can utter is "it's disrespectful", but they have zero idea why. 

I don't know if Kaepernick is a patriot or not. I don't think his protest has anything to do with it either way. all he's highlighting is the gross inequality in the US towards minorities. 

Why is a discussion here different than how you speak with people irl?

What if (for example) you just love your country because you can look at your grandparents and see that 3 out of 4 of them came to this country from other places?  (Italy x2, PR x1)  The 4th grandparent saw his parents come from some other country.  (Ireland)
They all came to this country to try and live better lives -- for themselves, and for their families.
Each generation has done a better than the previous one when it comes to jobs, financial stability, and education....to the point where I do things now for my family that I am sure my grandparents, were they alive, would be blown away by. 
This is because of the opportunity this country allowed hard working people who took advantage of the right conditions for them, personally, and parlayed that into a better future.
I love my country.  I am puzzled by the direction we are taking, and certainly dismayed by the actions of some of our citizens.

It is my opinion that not every immigrant had the same journey as my family did.  I respect their opinions about their country, they are no doubt shaped by the realities that they (and theirs) experienced.

Your assumption is that the "average citizen" would not have any idea as to how to express themselves relative to their beliefs.  I again find this, imo, to be presumptuous and inflammatory.  It is your right to feel that way -- and to tell others you think so little of them -- but I do not happen to agree.  Not sure what you are basing the opinion on, although I guess it does not matter.  It is what you believe & real to you.  I think if you came here, went to a sporting event, and asked people, that they would be able to tell you why they stand and salute....and why the symbol of this country is important to them.

I think if you read some of what Kaepernick has shared, he has expressed his admiration of our troops, his appreciation for what this country has given to him & many others...and at the same time that he is certainly trying to address how some are treated & how this treatment (in his opinion) is widely ignored.
He initially sat during the anthem and then moved to the sideline and kneeled, saying he felt that was showing his respect for the flag & also his belief in others noting the need for changes.  (Paraphrasing, certainly, that is my recollection of what he indicated at the time.)

Overall, it seems we agree in supporting his right to kneel, his right to support causes he believes in...we disconnect on the definition of Patriotism and the belief system the 'Average American' has when it comes to Patriotism.   That is OK.  You can lump Patriots all together in your beliefs.

I will continue to practice Pastafarianism as my religion (jokingly) & also to stand and salute the symbol of our country, its great history, the people who have fought for us & continue to serve, and what that means to me & has meant to my family.  (And, to support the rights of Kaepernick to try and cause positive change in our society, where I also agree we need many positive changes.) 

It makes me smile to know that some of our neighbors to the north are so concerned about us, while at the same time thinking that the Patriots in the US are such ignorant followers of our leaders, cheering on the cultivation of ignorance....all the while thinking we are better than everyone else because of where we were born. 

I am a Patriot.  I strongly support the USA.  I do not agree with Donald J. Trump...I did not vote for Donald J. Trump.  I still strongly support and love the USA, many flaws though we have.

Keep on doing what you believe in Kaepernick, we all need to try to make it a better world...day by day.
 

very well said.  I don't quite understand why it bothers non-Americans that a lot of people in this country love their country and are patriotic towards it. 

it doesn't bother me. nothing I said points to it "bothering" me. 

HughFreakingDillon said:

pjhawks said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

I was out for lunch with a buddy, and golf was on the big screen. I asked him "do the play the national anthem at the first hole in golf? is Tiger Woods kneeling? nope. why in some sports and not all? right, because they know they aren't recruiting golf fans to the military with false patriotism. wrong demographic". 

aren't you Canadian?  is it false patriotism when the Canadian teams do it?

yes it is. I think it's stupid no matter where you live. unfortunately, many people in canada think the way to move culturally is to mimic whatever the US does. I'd like canada to stop acting like America's little brother and get our own identity. 

the CFL has adopted military appreciation day, and we have jet flyovers after the anthem; it's ridiculousness. 

the above quotes don't indicate that it bothers you?  false patriotism, it's stupid, canada stop acting like america's little brother, flyers are ridiculous?  sure seems like it's got you all bothered

pjhawks said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

pjhawks said:

F Me In The Brain said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

F Me In The Brain said:

Fair enough, I get what you are saying.

I think there are some who would say that Patriotism is something that goes as deeply as an emotion can go. 

Strong support for one's country does not necessarily mean you support a 'cultivation of fear and ignorance', and I would put out there that Patriotism does not mean that you feel 'you are better for no other reason that being born in a certain geographic area.' 

Hey, you can believe what you want.  My opinion is that your statement is a pretty harsh judgement on a big group of people (people who would define themselves as 'Patriotic') and that it might be slightly antagonistic toward many, many people.  This sort of rhetoric is part of the problem today, in my opinion. 

As stated before here, I do not think that Mr Kaepernick shows any lack of Patriotism because he chooses to kneel in silent protest during the playing of the National Anthem at a sporting event.  Based on his actions, I believe he has a very strong support for his country....he also is working to draw attention to some things he feels need to be changed in his country. 

we are having a discussion on a message board. I'm not walking around with a sign on my back saying "patriots are idiots". 

I can understand patriotism if you are, say, a military family. hey, you gotta have a strong emotional connection to your country if you are willing to die for it. But I'm talking about the average citizen who sing the national anthem at a sporting event without even considering why. or telling others they need to take their hat off, and when you ask why, all they can utter is "it's disrespectful", but they have zero idea why. 

I don't know if Kaepernick is a patriot or not. I don't think his protest has anything to do with it either way. all he's highlighting is the gross inequality in the US towards minorities. 

Why is a discussion here different than how you speak with people irl?

What if (for example) you just love your country because you can look at your grandparents and see that 3 out of 4 of them came to this country from other places?  (Italy x2, PR x1)  The 4th grandparent saw his parents come from some other country.  (Ireland)
They all came to this country to try and live better lives -- for themselves, and for their families.
Each generation has done a better than the previous one when it comes to jobs, financial stability, and education....to the point where I do things now for my family that I am sure my grandparents, were they alive, would be blown away by. 
This is because of the opportunity this country allowed hard working people who took advantage of the right conditions for them, personally, and parlayed that into a better future.
I love my country.  I am puzzled by the direction we are taking, and certainly dismayed by the actions of some of our citizens.

It is my opinion that not every immigrant had the same journey as my family did.  I respect their opinions about their country, they are no doubt shaped by the realities that they (and theirs) experienced.

Your assumption is that the "average citizen" would not have any idea as to how to express themselves relative to their beliefs.  I again find this, imo, to be presumptuous and inflammatory.  It is your right to feel that way -- and to tell others you think so little of them -- but I do not happen to agree.  Not sure what you are basing the opinion on, although I guess it does not matter.  It is what you believe & real to you.  I think if you came here, went to a sporting event, and asked people, that they would be able to tell you why they stand and salute....and why the symbol of this country is important to them.

I think if you read some of what Kaepernick has shared, he has expressed his admiration of our troops, his appreciation for what this country has given to him & many others...and at the same time that he is certainly trying to address how some are treated & how this treatment (in his opinion) is widely ignored.
He initially sat during the anthem and then moved to the sideline and kneeled, saying he felt that was showing his respect for the flag & also his belief in others noting the need for changes.  (Paraphrasing, certainly, that is my recollection of what he indicated at the time.)

Overall, it seems we agree in supporting his right to kneel, his right to support causes he believes in...we disconnect on the definition of Patriotism and the belief system the 'Average American' has when it comes to Patriotism.   That is OK.  You can lump Patriots all together in your beliefs.

I will continue to practice Pastafarianism as my religion (jokingly) & also to stand and salute the symbol of our country, its great history, the people who have fought for us & continue to serve, and what that means to me & has meant to my family.  (And, to support the rights of Kaepernick to try and cause positive change in our society, where I also agree we need many positive changes.) 

It makes me smile to know that some of our neighbors to the north are so concerned about us, while at the same time thinking that the Patriots in the US are such ignorant followers of our leaders, cheering on the cultivation of ignorance....all the while thinking we are better than everyone else because of where we were born. 

I am a Patriot.  I strongly support the USA.  I do not agree with Donald J. Trump...I did not vote for Donald J. Trump.  I still strongly support and love the USA, many flaws though we have.

Keep on doing what you believe in Kaepernick, we all need to try to make it a better world...day by day.
 

very well said.  I don't quite understand why it bothers non-Americans that a lot of people in this country love their country and are patriotic towards it. 

however, I will ask you......do you not see the relation of american patriotism and:

-bigotry and racism (hello, travel ban/fear of immigration-and yes, the latter predates Trump)
-the wars america has waged in the name of "liberating" others to be more american-like? the reasons those wars are actually waged have zero to do with patriotism, but the recruitment of troops is all patriotism and "love for/duty towards country". 

-bigotry and racism (hello, travel ban/fear of immigration-and yes, the latter predates Trump)  - no. idiots are idiots not because of their country.  Do you consider Europeans false patriots because they have issues with immigration?


-the wars america has waged in the name of "liberating" others to be more american-like? the reasons those wars are actually waged have zero to do with patriotism, but the recruitment of troops is all patriotism and "love for/duty towards country".   - how else would you suggest to recruit for military service?  Unlike many countries our Military is fully volunteer. There is no required service.  

pjhawks said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

pjhawks said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

pjhawks said:

F Me In The Brain said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

F Me In The Brain said:

Fair enough, I get what you are saying.

I think there are some who would say that Patriotism is something that goes as deeply as an emotion can go. 

Strong support for one's country does not necessarily mean you support a 'cultivation of fear and ignorance', and I would put out there that Patriotism does not mean that you feel 'you are better for no other reason that being born in a certain geographic area.' 

Hey, you can believe what you want.  My opinion is that your statement is a pretty harsh judgement on a big group of people (people who would define themselves as 'Patriotic') and that it might be slightly antagonistic toward many, many people.  This sort of rhetoric is part of the problem today, in my opinion. 

As stated before here, I do not think that Mr Kaepernick shows any lack of Patriotism because he chooses to kneel in silent protest during the playing of the National Anthem at a sporting event.  Based on his actions, I believe he has a very strong support for his country....he also is working to draw attention to some things he feels need to be changed in his country. 

we are having a discussion on a message board. I'm not walking around with a sign on my back saying "patriots are idiots". 

I can understand patriotism if you are, say, a military family. hey, you gotta have a strong emotional connection to your country if you are willing to die for it. But I'm talking about the average citizen who sing the national anthem at a sporting event without even considering why. or telling others they need to take their hat off, and when you ask why, all they can utter is "it's disrespectful", but they have zero idea why. 

I don't know if Kaepernick is a patriot or not. I don't think his protest has anything to do with it either way. all he's highlighting is the gross inequality in the US towards minorities. 

Why is a discussion here different than how you speak with people irl?

What if (for example) you just love your country because you can look at your grandparents and see that 3 out of 4 of them came to this country from other places?  (Italy x2, PR x1)  The 4th grandparent saw his parents come from some other country.  (Ireland)
They all came to this country to try and live better lives -- for themselves, and for their families.
Each generation has done a better than the previous one when it comes to jobs, financial stability, and education....to the point where I do things now for my family that I am sure my grandparents, were they alive, would be blown away by. 
This is because of the opportunity this country allowed hard working people who took advantage of the right conditions for them, personally, and parlayed that into a better future.
I love my country.  I am puzzled by the direction we are taking, and certainly dismayed by the actions of some of our citizens.

It is my opinion that not every immigrant had the same journey as my family did.  I respect their opinions about their country, they are no doubt shaped by the realities that they (and theirs) experienced.

Your assumption is that the "average citizen" would not have any idea as to how to express themselves relative to their beliefs.  I again find this, imo, to be presumptuous and inflammatory.  It is your right to feel that way -- and to tell others you think so little of them -- but I do not happen to agree.  Not sure what you are basing the opinion on, although I guess it does not matter.  It is what you believe & real to you.  I think if you came here, went to a sporting event, and asked people, that they would be able to tell you why they stand and salute....and why the symbol of this country is important to them.

I think if you read some of what Kaepernick has shared, he has expressed his admiration of our troops, his appreciation for what this country has given to him & many others...and at the same time that he is certainly trying to address how some are treated & how this treatment (in his opinion) is widely ignored.
He initially sat during the anthem and then moved to the sideline and kneeled, saying he felt that was showing his respect for the flag & also his belief in others noting the need for changes.  (Paraphrasing, certainly, that is my recollection of what he indicated at the time.)

Overall, it seems we agree in supporting his right to kneel, his right to support causes he believes in...we disconnect on the definition of Patriotism and the belief system the 'Average American' has when it comes to Patriotism.   That is OK.  You can lump Patriots all together in your beliefs.

I will continue to practice Pastafarianism as my religion (jokingly) & also to stand and salute the symbol of our country, its great history, the people who have fought for us & continue to serve, and what that means to me & has meant to my family.  (And, to support the rights of Kaepernick to try and cause positive change in our society, where I also agree we need many positive changes.) 

It makes me smile to know that some of our neighbors to the north are so concerned about us, while at the same time thinking that the Patriots in the US are such ignorant followers of our leaders, cheering on the cultivation of ignorance....all the while thinking we are better than everyone else because of where we were born. 

I am a Patriot.  I strongly support the USA.  I do not agree with Donald J. Trump...I did not vote for Donald J. Trump.  I still strongly support and love the USA, many flaws though we have.

Keep on doing what you believe in Kaepernick, we all need to try to make it a better world...day by day.
 

very well said.  I don't quite understand why it bothers non-Americans that a lot of people in this country love their country and are patriotic towards it. 

however, I will ask you......do you not see the relation of american patriotism and:

-bigotry and racism (hello, travel ban/fear of immigration-and yes, the latter predates Trump)
-the wars america has waged in the name of "liberating" others to be more american-like? the reasons those wars are actually waged have zero to do with patriotism, but the recruitment of troops is all patriotism and "love for/duty towards country". 

-bigotry and racism (hello, travel ban/fear of immigration-and yes, the latter predates Trump)  - no. idiots are idiots not because of their country.  Do you consider Europeans false patriots because they have issues with immigration?


-the wars america has waged in the name of "liberating" others to be more american-like? the reasons those wars are actually waged have zero to do with patriotism, but the recruitment of troops is all patriotism and "love for/duty towards country".   - how else would you suggest to recruit for military service?  Unlike many countries our Military is fully volunteer. There is no required service.  

europeans, at present, have a much more legitimate concern with regards to immigration than the US does. 

you made my point. 

And you didn't answer my question.  in an all volunteer military how would you suggest they recruit if not using love for/duty towards country?  maybe they should advertise their cool uniforms, free meals and training?  

Bentleyspop said:

Mike Pence leaves 49ers-Colts game over protesting during national anthem

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/20955550/mike-pence-leaves-san-francisco-49ers-indianapolis-colts-game-protesting-national-anthem