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Meanwhile back in Israel

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  • badbrainsbadbrains Posts: 10,255
    edited May 2015
    benjs said:

    Nart, he's right. You need to take a step back and consider the posts, not the poster. I get that there's animosity between the two of you (and I refuse to read into it any more than that), but this is a discussion about facts. The statement that I posted, which BS agreed to, suggested a few things:

    -Obama believes in the right to criticize Israel for everything except its right to exist in some fashion
    -Those who criticize Israel do so just loudly enough as not to be morally reprehensible humans, and just quietly enough as not to actually drive change
    -There is precedent in the notion that Israel does not have concern for the well-being of the Palestinian people
    -The Palestinian people exist today (at all) because Israel fears the global isolation which would stem from a genocide at their hands
    -Israel's assistance in repairing a society crippled by Israel itself has been no better than the bare acceptable minimum

    You may not like his tone, or the way he goes about making his points, but BS just agreed with things that I had always assumed you and I agree on (at least partially). This was not said with any arrogance, or any bigotry - it was just a simple "I agree".

    Then maybe I read it wrong. He's flip flopped on many past statements that i must of missed the point. Hard to see BS agree with the way he def goes about his posts. Hard to see his point when he constantly trolls around with asking me about my so called support for Hamas when I've said before that I don't support the shit Hamas has done in the past. So maybe I read it wrong, can't blame me when he's posted some lame shit in the past. I'll "try" to read his posts more clearly next time. And no ones asking anyone to read into our animosity we have for each other. It's crystal clear he and I have no love for each other nor will we ever. I've been posting on the boards for sometime now and I've never met someone that I truly dispise as a human, no one, more then him. And I'm sure the feeling is mutual. From the looks of it, I'm not the only one.

    Edit-and Ben, if he truly believes that shit that you claim he does about crtisizing Israel, then why make that yellow stars comment? See, I don't buy it.
    Post edited by badbrains on
  • yosiyosi Posts: 2,213
    mickeyrat said:

    mickeyrat said:

    mickeyrat said:

    mickeyrat said:

    mickeyrat said:

    mickeyrat said:

    yosi said:

    I assume the question is what I think the "Jewish identity" of Israel should consist of. Basically I'd like for the country's civic identity to be defined by its Jewish majority. So Hebrew as the common vernacular, the national calendar defined by the Jewish calendar (e.g., major school holidays aligned with Passover (let's say) in the same way that winter break in the US lines up with Christmas), etc. I also think there should be a strict separation of synagogue and state.

    Who exactly would this apply to? Who is included in the Jewish majority?
    Waiting, watching the clock......
    Still Here
    Taps fingers on the table.
    anxiously waiting a reply.
    Still waiting for a god damned answer to my motherfucking question.
    Sorry, what's the question again?
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • yosiyosi Posts: 2,213
    benjs said:

    Nart, he's right. You need to take a step back and consider the posts, not the poster. I get that there's animosity between the two of you (and I refuse to read into it any more than that), but this is a discussion about facts. The statement that I posted, which BS agreed to, suggested a few things:

    -Obama believes in the right to criticize Israel for everything except its right to exist in some fashion
    -Those who criticize Israel do so just loudly enough as not to be morally reprehensible humans, and just quietly enough as not to actually drive change
    -There is precedent in the notion that Israel does not have concern for the well-being of the Palestinian people
    -The Palestinian people exist today (at all) because Israel fears the global isolation which would stem from a genocide at their hands
    -Israel's assistance in repairing a society crippled by Israel itself has been no better than the bare acceptable minimum

    You may not like his tone, or the way he goes about making his points, but BS just agreed with things that I had always assumed you and I agree on (at least partially). This was not said with any arrogance, or any bigotry - it was just a simple "I agree".

    Just to be clear, are you implying that it is your belief that Israel would commit a genocide against the Palestinians if it could only do so without suffering negative consequences?
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 20,603
    yosi said:

    mickeyrat said:

    mickeyrat said:

    mickeyrat said:

    mickeyrat said:

    mickeyrat said:

    mickeyrat said:

    yosi said:

    I assume the question is what I think the "Jewish identity" of Israel should consist of. Basically I'd like for the country's civic identity to be defined by its Jewish majority. So Hebrew as the common vernacular, the national calendar defined by the Jewish calendar (e.g., major school holidays aligned with Passover (let's say) in the same way that winter break in the US lines up with Christmas), etc. I also think there should be a strict separation of synagogue and state.

    Who exactly would this apply to? Who is included in the Jewish majority?
    Waiting, watching the clock......
    Still Here
    Taps fingers on the table.
    anxiously waiting a reply.
    Still waiting for a god damned answer to my motherfucking question.
    Sorry, what's the question again?
    You studied law right?
    Due diligence would suggest you look at the entire quote chain. After your post I quoted initially.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

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  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 20,603
    yosi said:

    benjs said:

    Nart, he's right. You need to take a step back and consider the posts, not the poster. I get that there's animosity between the two of you (and I refuse to read into it any more than that), but this is a discussion about facts. The statement that I posted, which BS agreed to, suggested a few things:

    -Obama believes in the right to criticize Israel for everything except its right to exist in some fashion
    -Those who criticize Israel do so just loudly enough as not to be morally reprehensible humans, and just quietly enough as not to actually drive change
    -There is precedent in the notion that Israel does not have concern for the well-being of the Palestinian people
    -The Palestinian people exist today (at all) because Israel fears the global isolation which would stem from a genocide at their hands
    -Israel's assistance in repairing a society crippled by Israel itself has been no better than the bare acceptable minimum

    You may not like his tone, or the way he goes about making his points, but BS just agreed with things that I had always assumed you and I agree on (at least partially). This was not said with any arrogance, or any bigotry - it was just a simple "I agree".

    Just to be clear, are you implying that it is your belief that Israel would commit a genocide against the Palestinians if it could only do so without suffering negative consequences?
    A lot of the rhetoric from government officials suggest as much.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • yosiyosi Posts: 2,213
    mickeyrat said:

    yosi said:

    mickeyrat said:

    mickeyrat said:

    mickeyrat said:

    mickeyrat said:

    mickeyrat said:

    mickeyrat said:

    yosi said:

    I assume the question is what I think the "Jewish identity" of Israel should consist of. Basically I'd like for the country's civic identity to be defined by its Jewish majority. So Hebrew as the common vernacular, the national calendar defined by the Jewish calendar (e.g., major school holidays aligned with Passover (let's say) in the same way that winter break in the US lines up with Christmas), etc. I also think there should be a strict separation of synagogue and state.

    Who exactly would this apply to? Who is included in the Jewish majority?
    Waiting, watching the clock......
    Still Here
    Taps fingers on the table.
    anxiously waiting a reply.
    Still waiting for a god damned answer to my motherfucking question.
    Sorry, what's the question again?
    You studied law right?
    Due diligence would suggest you look at the entire quote chain. After your post I quoted initially.
    Sorry, but I'm tired, and I'm not going to go combing back through the thread. I'm happy to answer the question if you'll only remind me what it is.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • badbrainsbadbrains Posts: 10,255
    edited May 2015
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 27,343
    mickeyrat said:

    Define "Jewish Identity" for me will you?

    mickeyrat said:

    I was clear in the question. define it. Not what you THINK it is. but what it actually is. ethnic? nationality? belief in judaism? define it.

    mickeyrat said:

    yosi said:

    I assume the question is what I think the "Jewish identity" of Israel should consist of. Basically I'd like for the country's civic identity to be defined by its Jewish majority. So Hebrew as the common vernacular, the national calendar defined by the Jewish calendar (e.g., major school holidays aligned with Passover (let's say) in the same way that winter break in the US lines up with Christmas), etc. I also think there should be a strict separation of synagogue and state.

    Who exactly would this apply to? Who is included in the Jewish majority?
    There you go Yosi. Too tired to respond to mickey but plenty of energy to reply to questions more to your liking? With all due respect to mickey and you Yosi.
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  • yosiyosi Posts: 2,213
    As I said, I'm happy to respond, I just did not feel like spending my time combing through the thread. I don't think that asking for the question to be repeated is such a big deal.

    In any event, I can't answer the question except to tell you my own opinion. Identity (of any sort) is fluid, and every individual defines it for him or herself. There is no objective definitive answer. If, however, the question relates to how Jewishness is defined for legal purposes in Israel, I essentially gave my own rough opinion of how this ought to work in my earlier comments on Israel's immigration laws. And if you're asking about the current state of Israeli law, then I believe for purposes of the law of return it is one Jewish grandparent or orthodox conversion.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 20,603
    edited May 2015
    Where do the ethiopian jews stand then. Frankly what you describe in my opinion is eastern european all others can get fucked.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • benjsbenjs Toronto, ONPosts: 8,331
    yosi said:

    benjs said:

    Nart, he's right. You need to take a step back and consider the posts, not the poster. I get that there's animosity between the two of you (and I refuse to read into it any more than that), but this is a discussion about facts. The statement that I posted, which BS agreed to, suggested a few things:

    -Obama believes in the right to criticize Israel for everything except its right to exist in some fashion
    -Those who criticize Israel do so just loudly enough as not to be morally reprehensible humans, and just quietly enough as not to actually drive change
    -There is precedent in the notion that Israel does not have concern for the well-being of the Palestinian people
    -The Palestinian people exist today (at all) because Israel fears the global isolation which would stem from a genocide at their hands
    -Israel's assistance in repairing a society crippled by Israel itself has been no better than the bare acceptable minimum

    You may not like his tone, or the way he goes about making his points, but BS just agreed with things that I had always assumed you and I agree on (at least partially). This was not said with any arrogance, or any bigotry - it was just a simple "I agree".

    Just to be clear, are you implying that it is your belief that Israel would commit a genocide against the Palestinians if it could only do so without suffering negative consequences?
    Yosi - that was clearly the wrong thing for me to have written. I think far more likely would be a mass exile. What I do think is that there would be (more) blatant disregard towards the well-being of Palestinians, and the casualty count from affairs such as the recent war in Gaza would be significantly higher.
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

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  • yosiyosi Posts: 2,213
    edited May 2015
    mickeyrat said:

    Where do the ethiopian jews stand then. Frankly what you describe in my opinion is eastern european all others can get fucked.

    I'm not sure why you've come to that conclusion. Ethiopian Jews are considered Jews. The whole reason why there is a significant Ethiopian Jewish community in Israel is because of Operation Solomon, which was explicitly undertaken BECAUSE Israel considered them Jewish.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • yosiyosi Posts: 2,213
    benjs said:

    yosi said:

    benjs said:

    Nart, he's right. You need to take a step back and consider the posts, not the poster. I get that there's animosity between the two of you (and I refuse to read into it any more than that), but this is a discussion about facts. The statement that I posted, which BS agreed to, suggested a few things:

    -Obama believes in the right to criticize Israel for everything except its right to exist in some fashion
    -Those who criticize Israel do so just loudly enough as not to be morally reprehensible humans, and just quietly enough as not to actually drive change
    -There is precedent in the notion that Israel does not have concern for the well-being of the Palestinian people
    -The Palestinian people exist today (at all) because Israel fears the global isolation which would stem from a genocide at their hands
    -Israel's assistance in repairing a society crippled by Israel itself has been no better than the bare acceptable minimum

    You may not like his tone, or the way he goes about making his points, but BS just agreed with things that I had always assumed you and I agree on (at least partially). This was not said with any arrogance, or any bigotry - it was just a simple "I agree".

    Just to be clear, are you implying that it is your belief that Israel would commit a genocide against the Palestinians if it could only do so without suffering negative consequences?
    Yosi - that was clearly the wrong thing for me to have written. I think far more likely would be a mass exile. What I do think is that there would be (more) blatant disregard towards the well-being of Palestinians, and the casualty count from affairs such as the recent war in Gaza would be significantly higher.
    Fair enough. I'm not sure I agree that Israeli restraint, such as it is, results primarily from concern about how the rest of the world might react, but that's a minor quibble and purely a matter of conjecture.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 20,603
    yosi said:

    mickeyrat said:

    Where do the ethiopian jews stand then. Frankly what you describe in my opinion is eastern european all others can get fucked.

    I'm not sure why you've come to that conclusion. Ethiopian Jews are considered Jews. The whole reason why there is a significant Ethiopian Jewish community in Israel is because of Operation Solomon, which was explicitly undertaken BECAUSE Israel considered them Jewish.
    whats that?

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-32813056
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • yosiyosi Posts: 2,213
    mickeyrat said:

    yosi said:

    mickeyrat said:

    Where do the ethiopian jews stand then. Frankly what you describe in my opinion is eastern european all others can get fucked.

    I'm not sure why you've come to that conclusion. Ethiopian Jews are considered Jews. The whole reason why there is a significant Ethiopian Jewish community in Israel is because of Operation Solomon, which was explicitly undertaken BECAUSE Israel considered them Jewish.
    whats that?

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-32813056
    That article doesn't contradict what I said. All I said was that they are recognized as Jews. I don't deny that Israel did a very poor job of absorbing the Ethiopians into Israeli society and that they face a range of hardships in Israel including outright discrimination. But that more or less describes the experience of most immigrants from pre-industrial countries in western industrial nations. That's not an excuse, but you seem to be making the point in order to depict Israel's abnormal failings, when it's really just proof that Israel shares in the normal failings of normal states.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • yosiyosi Posts: 2,213
    Another interesting read:

    Why the World Should Test Netanyahu’s Newfound Commitment to Peace
    Bibi announces support for Arab Peace Initiative. It doesn’t matter if it’s real.

    By Yair Rosenberg|May 28, 2015

    If there were one word to describe the spirit of Benjamin Netanyahu’s re-election campaign, it would not be “compromise.” From questioning the viability of the two-state solution to vowing to keep Jerusalem undivided, the prime minister repeatedly appealed to hard-right voters in a successful bid to draw them away from rival conservative parties. And yet, less than a month after his new government’s swearing-in ceremony, Netanyahu has made a remarkable about-face on the peace process.

    First, last week, in a meeting with European Union foreign policy chief Federica Mogherini, the prime minister expressed a willingness to negotiate Israel’s borders in the West Bank, delineating which settlements Israel could build in, and where it would cede land to Palestine. This openness came as a surprise, Haaretz reporter Barak Ravid noted, because it was “the first time since he took office in 2009 that Netanyahu has voiced willingness to discuss the size of the settlement blocs and their borders with the Palestinians.” Doing so would open the door to freezing settlement construction outside the negotiated border line, effectively halting the settler enterprise in its tracks.

    The prime minister’s second act, however, was even more eye-opening. At a press conference in Tel Aviv today, Netanyahu backed the Arab Peace Initiative, a 2002 proposal put forward by the Arab League that outlines a path to two states. Due to its problematic formulations on Palestinian refugees, among other provisions, no Israeli prime minister or government has accepted the API as a basis for negotiations—until now. Netanyahu outlined his reservations on refugees and security, of course, but his bottom line was “the principle of trying to achieve an understanding with the leading countries in the Arab world is a good one.”

    It seems clear that a desire to head off international pressure–from EU settlement product labeling initiatives to a looming prospective U.N. Security Council resolution mandating Israeli withdrawal from the West Bank–has led Netanyahu to take more conciliatory public positions on peace. Whether or not he is actually interested in turning those words into actions, however, is another matter entirely, given his checkered track record.

    Unsurprisingly, then, global reactions to Netanyahu’s newfound enthusiasm for the peace process have ranged from cautiously optimistic to scornful. After meeting with the prime minister, European officials reportedly “agreed that Netanyahu had done the maximum possible to try to signal the European Union that he’s interested in turning over a new leaf.” While unsure of his commitment to negotiating settlement borders, they resolved to pursue the prospect. Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erekat, meanwhile, rejected Netanyahu’s border talks proposal outright, deeming it a non-starter. Likewise, Ilan Goldenberg, a member of John Kerry’s ill-fated negotiating team, dubbed the gambit “cynical even by Bibi’s standards.”

    Reading these responses, it might seem like divining Netanyahu’s intentions is necessary in order to formulate an appropriate political response to his pronouncements. But the truth is, it doesn’t actually matter. In fact, both Bibi-skeptics and Bibi-believers should treat him as if he is serious, because it will ultimately further the prospect of peace regardless.

    Now, it’s easy to see why those who accept Netanyahu’s sincerity should pursue his proposals. After all, they could bring peace. But even those who think Netanyahu has no intention of following through on his words, and see his statements as mere stalling tactics to allay international opprobrium, should pretend as if they are made in good faith. Why? Because just entertaining the notion of setting Israel’s borders, stopping settlement expansion, and negotiating on the basis of the Arab Peace Initiative, has already put Netanyahu at odds with his settler coalition partners and imperiled his premiership.

    As soon as news broke of Netanyahu’s proposal to negotiate final borders for the West Bank, Jewish Home minister Uri Ariel took to Facebook to denounce the prospect as “dangerous and precedential,” warning that it violated the governing coalition’s commitment to preserving Jewish sovereignty. Likewise, after Netanyahu signaled his openness to the API, while offering the caveat that Israel would need to maintain a security presence in the West Bank for some time before fully withdrawing, former West Bank council head Dani Dayan retorted, “Netanyahu is wrong when he says Israel must control militarily Judea and Samaria for many years. It must be forever.”

    In other words, every time Netanyahu publicly commits to the prospect of peace initiatives, he drives a wedge into his governing coalition. A typical government could weather such storms, but Netanyahu’s is far from typical—it is a razor-thin 61-seat coalition with a majority dependent on just one seat. Any disgruntled lawmaker can hold it hostage or even bring it down.

    This means that, for those who think peace is not in the cards while Netanyahu is in power, the best thing they can do right now is to pretend that it is. Take Netanyahu at his word and use his commitments to heighten the tensions in his coalition. Even if such pressure produces little headway with the Palestinians, the more the topic is on the agenda—and the more Netanyahu is forced to swear public fealty to the notion of curbing settlement building—the more precarious his coalition will become.

    Moreover, in offering up both the West Bank borders and API of his own initiative, Netanyahu has effectively neutered his usual defense against international pressure on the peace process. In the past, he has been able to turn such pressure into a political asset by portraying himself to Israeli voters as a principled leader standing up to an unfair world. But this time—unlike by European-initiated U.N. resolutions, or Obama administration criticisms—the maelstrom will be of his own making. The proposals are Netanyahu’s own. If he goes along with them, he creates further friction in his fractious coalition. And if he backs off, he comes across as the very opposite of the strong leader he seeks to embody to the electorate.

    The basic political reality, then, is this: For those who believe Netanyahu is open to compromise, he just handed them an olive branch. For those who don’t, he just handed them a club. In either case, both groups would be foolish not to use it.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • badbrainsbadbrains Posts: 10,255
    16 fucken years since bush had taken office, 16 years since they "tried" to restart the peace talks and NOTHING. 16 years and look at all the shit that's happened there. Years keep going by, land keeps getting seized and innocent civilians keep getting killed almost daily. What a disgrace.
  • Drowned OutDrowned Out Posts: 6,040
    edited May 2015
    yosi said:

    mickeyrat said:

    yosi said:

    mickeyrat said:

    Where do the ethiopian jews stand then. Frankly what you describe in my opinion is eastern european all others can get fucked.

    I'm not sure why you've come to that conclusion. Ethiopian Jews are considered Jews. The whole reason why there is a significant Ethiopian Jewish community in Israel is because of Operation Solomon, which was explicitly undertaken BECAUSE Israel considered them Jewish.
    whats that?

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-32813056
    That article doesn't contradict what I said. All I said was that they are recognized as Jews. I don't deny that Israel did a very poor job of absorbing the Ethiopians into Israeli society and that they face a range of hardships in Israel including outright discrimination. But that more or less describes the experience of most immigrants from pre-industrial countries in western industrial nations. That's not an excuse, but you seem to be making the point in order to depict Israel's abnormal failings, when it's really just proof that Israel shares in the normal failings of normal states.
    I don't know of many 'normal' states that administer birth control to specific immigrant populations, as Israel was shown to be doing to Ethiopian women a couple years back...I don't consider that a normal failing.
    Edit: maybe I should have not used the word 'shown', and included the word 'alleged'? Has the investigation into this been completed yet?


    Post edited by Drowned Out on
  • badbrainsbadbrains Posts: 10,255


    yosi said:

    mickeyrat said:

    yosi said:

    mickeyrat said:

    Where do the ethiopian jews stand then. Frankly what you describe in my opinion is eastern european all others can get fucked.

    I'm not sure why you've come to that conclusion. Ethiopian Jews are considered Jews. The whole reason why there is a significant Ethiopian Jewish community in Israel is because of Operation Solomon, which was explicitly undertaken BECAUSE Israel considered them Jewish.
    whats that?

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-32813056
    That article doesn't contradict what I said. All I said was that they are recognized as Jews. I don't deny that Israel did a very poor job of absorbing the Ethiopians into Israeli society and that they face a range of hardships in Israel including outright discrimination. But that more or less describes the experience of most immigrants from pre-industrial countries in western industrial nations. That's not an excuse, but you seem to be making the point in order to depict Israel's abnormal failings, when it's really just proof that Israel shares in the normal failings of normal states.
    I don't know of many 'normal' states that administer birth control to specific immigrant populations, as Israel was shown to be doing to Ethiopian women a couple years back...I don't consider that a normal failing.

    You can't defend shit like this. It's sickening. Who does shit like this? Isn't this harsh? You bring Ethiopians to your country and then do this to them? To control "their" population. This is Israel's government that does this to its own people?
  • yosiyosi Posts: 2,213
    You're amazing. Someone makes a wild assertion, unsupported by any evidence, based on an utterly false and discredited story, and you immediately accept it as the truth because it confirms your hateful biases. The article below is from 2013. I especially like the prophetic bit at the end, which is especially apt here:

    Let’s Get the Facts Straight About Ethiopian Jews and Contraception

    February 7, 2013

    According to a sub-headline accompanying an Op-Ed in the English edition of Ha’aretz, “The revelation that Israel is sterilizing Ethiopian women adds to a shameful history of abuse of powerless women and communities.” That’s a shocking, horrifying assertion with its overtones of Nazi racism and Dr. Mengele’s experimentation. It’s also completely false. Although it was later corrected, the damage was done.

    Along with two news articles in Ha’aretz which purveyed slightly less extreme charges – that Israel allegedly required Ethiopian women in transit camps en route to Israel to receive long-lasting contraceptive injections as a condition for immigrating – the Ha’aretzitems set off a firestorm of global coverage. According to reports, the coerced injections continued even after the women arrived in Israel.

    Millions of readers have heard various versions of the story in venues ranging from the mainstream (such as Huffington Post’s“Ethiopian Women Claim Israel Forced Them to Accept Birth Control Shots”) to the virulently anti-Semitic. (“State of Israel forced the sterilization of Ethiopian women” speaks of Zionist Dr. Mengeles.)

    Is it true? Did Israel’s soaring rescue of thousands of Ethiopian Jews crash land some two decades later?

    The Ha’aretz stories were based on a Dec. 8, 2012 Israeli broadcast called “Vacuum,” with host Gal Gabai. Ignoring information to the contrary, and placing words in the mouths of her interviewees, Gabai relentlessly pushed her pre-determined and unsubstantiated thesis that the coerced injections of Depo-Provera, a contraception shot which lasts three months, led to a 50 percent decrease in the birth rate among Ethiopian immigrants in the last decade.

    Besides the abhorrent possibility that Israeli officials and/or employees of the Joint Distribution Committee, which operates the Ethiopian clinics, maintained a “systematic mechanism” (Gabai’s words) to ensure the women receive the shots, are there are other feasible explanations for the prevalent use of Depo-Provera among Ethiopian Jews? Yes, but Gabai, Talila Nesher of Ha’aretz and their foreign colleagues failed to consider them.

    Depo-Provera is the most popular birth control method in African countries, including Ethiopia. Many women prefer the shot, a discreet means of birth control, which can be administered without the knowledge of disapproving husbands. A 2005 study carried out by Family Health International found: “Because contraceptives may introduce social discord, leading at times to intimate partners’ violence among African couples, women of low bargaining powers often resort to family planning methods that are suitable to covert use. . . Consequently, a general pattern that has been observed in the contraceptive method mix in sub-Saharan Africa and elsewhere in the developing world is the predominance of injectables.”

    A serious journalist covering the widespread use of Depo-Provera among Ethiopians would have taken into account women’s desire for discreet birth control. Gabai interviewed the head of the Israeli Society for Contraception, who noted the cultural preference for injections, but she completely discounted this point in her conclusion.

    Moreover, Gabai ignored other factors aside from alleged coerced injections which contributed to a lower birth rate. For instance, in the modern world, declining birth rates are associated with greater affluence and an improvement in the status of women. As they gain greater study and work opportunities, as well as better access to more advanced medical care and family planning, many women opt for fewer children. Poor populations with high child mortality rates also have high fertility rates. Israel has a lower infant and child mortality rate than Ethiopia.

    As demographer Petra Naihmas notes in the Demographic Research journal: “Ethiopian immigrants arrived from a rural, less developed country, where traditionally children have an important economic role to play. Obviously, within a developed urban economy, children are a net economic burden upon the parents until early adulthood and there is an emphasis on the future returns to investment in the education of children. The economic incentive to reduce fertility exists.”

    Futhermore, Naihmas contends that “abortions are being increasingly relied upon as a form of pregnancy control, especially among younger Ethiopian women” in Israel. Moreover, she says, women are putting off marriage and children: “The increase in median age of first marriage is particularly impressive for new Ethiopian immigrants, which increased by six years between 1990 and 2000.”

    According to a 2007 USAID report, many women in Ethiopia want birth control and are unable to get it; 34 percent of Ethiopian women want family planning services to prolong the time between births, or to prevent additional pregnancies. In their Ethiopian clinics, the JDC provides these critical, sought-after family planning services, and women are treated there from their own free will. These are the same services that are offered in thousands of programs around the world, run, for example, by the United Nations Population Fund. And yet Gabai assigned a sinister purpose to the JDC family planning workshops, referring to them as a “euphemism for decreasing the birth rate.”

    Regardless, is it still possible that certain JDC employees were negligent in carrying out their responsibilities, not carefully enough explaining side effects or alternative contraceptions? Might some Israeli health workers have been patronizing or racist, assuming that Ethiopian women could not be relied upon to take pills every day? Of course these are possibilities.

    But, is it true, as Gabai says to one of her interviewees, an Ethiopian mother of four, “they told you [having children is] forbidden in Israel”? The mother, who said she intends to have more children, replied: “No, why forbidden? There are loads of children. What, why forbidden?”

    Irresponsible, sensationalist reports distract from real social challenges facing Ethiopians in Israel, and do not help them.

    There are those, however, who do benefit from this saga. In the digital era, where falsehoods long outlast yellowed news clippings, the lie about Israel’s sterilization of Ethiopians will doubtless become another weapon in the arsenal used by extremists to delegitimize the Jewish state.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 20,603
    yosi said:

    mickeyrat said:

    yosi said:

    mickeyrat said:

    Where do the ethiopian jews stand then. Frankly what you describe in my opinion is eastern european all others can get fucked.

    I'm not sure why you've come to that conclusion. Ethiopian Jews are considered Jews. The whole reason why there is a significant Ethiopian Jewish community in Israel is because of Operation Solomon, which was explicitly undertaken BECAUSE Israel considered them Jewish.
    whats that?

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-32813056
    That article doesn't contradict what I said. All I said was that they are recognized as Jews. I don't deny that Israel did a very poor job of absorbing the Ethiopians into Israeli society and that they face a range of hardships in Israel including outright discrimination. But that more or less describes the experience of most immigrants from pre-industrial countries in western industrial nations. That's not an excuse, but you seem to be making the point in order to depict Israel's abnormal failings, when it's really just proof that Israel shares in the normal failings of normal states.
    Normal states build settlements illegally on occupied land? Normal states keep their boots on the necks of occupied people for close to 50 years?
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • badbrainsbadbrains Posts: 10,255
    mickeyrat said:

    yosi said:

    mickeyrat said:

    yosi said:

    mickeyrat said:

    Where do the ethiopian jews stand then. Frankly what you describe in my opinion is eastern european all others can get fucked.

    I'm not sure why you've come to that conclusion. Ethiopian Jews are considered Jews. The whole reason why there is a significant Ethiopian Jewish community in Israel is because of Operation Solomon, which was explicitly undertaken BECAUSE Israel considered them Jewish.
    whats that?

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-32813056
    That article doesn't contradict what I said. All I said was that they are recognized as Jews. I don't deny that Israel did a very poor job of absorbing the Ethiopians into Israeli society and that they face a range of hardships in Israel including outright discrimination. But that more or less describes the experience of most immigrants from pre-industrial countries in western industrial nations. That's not an excuse, but you seem to be making the point in order to depict Israel's abnormal failings, when it's really just proof that Israel shares in the normal failings of normal states.
    Normal states build settlements illegally on occupied land? Normal states keep their boots on the necks of occupied people for close to 50 years?
    Normal if u live in Israel.
  • Drowned OutDrowned Out Posts: 6,040
    yosi said:

    You're amazing. Someone makes a wild assertion, unsupported by any evidence, based on an utterly false and discredited story, and you immediately accept it as the truth because it confirms your hateful biases. The article below is from 2013. I especially like the prophetic bit at the end, which is especially apt here:




    Is it utterly false and discredited? I wrote my last post lying in bed last night, and fell asleep before I could confirm or deny the allegations....I remembered the birth control story when reading your post about israel being 'normal' in their handling of ethiopian immigrants. I googled to confirm I was remembering the story correctly....found versions of the initial Haaretz story that had been carried by many 'credible' major outlets, and posted in haste. Of course, with any unproven story, I'd have been wise to have checked for more recent updates. Once I realized I hadn't followed up the story, I tried googling to see if the claims were ever investigated...because yes, I only remembered the initial allegations, and yes, I'm fully aware of the way this kind of thing grows legs and sticks around even if it is challenged. I did find articles that said Haaretz had walked back the claim that the Israeli government had admitted that birth control was forced on ethiopian immigrants. At that time, Israel did issue a statement to doctors to tell them not to administer birth control unless the women knew exactly what it was they were receiving....an odd statement to make (common sense?) at that particular time....even if the statement was not an admission, it still smelled like trying to 'get in front' of a problem...and that is what led to the poor overreach by Haaretz. The correction does show that the article wasn't substantiated by the government, but it doesn't make the allegations false. I found articles that said an investigation would be undertaken by a rabbi from Likud, complaining that the man they put in charge had opposed bringing the ethiopians to israel from the start...but then the trail went cold. I read a number of articles before passing out....I never did find my answer, and don't have time to keep digging today at work. Was this investigation ever completed? Not that I would trust an internal investigation by any government agency. Still, it was apparent from the minute I started googling that I had to add a caveat to my post, so I did. Was this a policy initiative? Highly unlikely. Could it have been an unofficial undertaking in the transfer camps? Possibly. Could it have been a few racist doctors, manipulating these women? Possibly. And could it have been an overzealous documentarian looking for a sensational story? Again, possibly.
    For the record - i never inferred anything about forced sterilization. although I am aware that some news outlets 'went there' after that documentary aired. I also knew that you would waste no time discrediting the story and I would be raked over the coals by the time I woke up...funny (but not surprising) considering how long it took you to answer mickey's question, and how often you post here these days.
    I have to wonder what the incentive was for Israel's ethiopian migrant initiatives. Was it a demographic thing? Whole-hearted benevolence?
    Or maybe just warm bodies for settlement expansion projects? I'd be curious to see where the public housing they received was located...couldn't find any info on that, either.


  • yosiyosi Posts: 2,213
    badbrains said:
    You do realize, don't you, that these are all just links to the journalism that the article I posted was discussing. It's like responding to a critique of the Rolling Stone UVA rape story by posting a link to the Rolling Stone UVA rape story.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • yosiyosi Posts: 2,213
    mickeyrat said:

    yosi said:

    mickeyrat said:

    yosi said:

    mickeyrat said:

    Where do the ethiopian jews stand then. Frankly what you describe in my opinion is eastern european all others can get fucked.

    I'm not sure why you've come to that conclusion. Ethiopian Jews are considered Jews. The whole reason why there is a significant Ethiopian Jewish community in Israel is because of Operation Solomon, which was explicitly undertaken BECAUSE Israel considered them Jewish.
    whats that?

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-32813056
    That article doesn't contradict what I said. All I said was that they are recognized as Jews. I don't deny that Israel did a very poor job of absorbing the Ethiopians into Israeli society and that they face a range of hardships in Israel including outright discrimination. But that more or less describes the experience of most immigrants from pre-industrial countries in western industrial nations. That's not an excuse, but you seem to be making the point in order to depict Israel's abnormal failings, when it's really just proof that Israel shares in the normal failings of normal states.
    Normal states build settlements illegally on occupied land? Normal states keep their boots on the necks of occupied people for close to 50 years?
    Now you're changing the topic.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • yosiyosi Posts: 2,213

    yosi said:

    You're amazing. Someone makes a wild assertion, unsupported by any evidence, based on an utterly false and discredited story, and you immediately accept it as the truth because it confirms your hateful biases. The article below is from 2013. I especially like the prophetic bit at the end, which is especially apt here:




    Is it utterly false and discredited? I wrote my last post lying in bed last night, and fell asleep before I could confirm or deny the allegations....I remembered the birth control story when reading your post about israel being 'normal' in their handling of ethiopian immigrants. I googled to confirm I was remembering the story correctly....found versions of the initial Haaretz story that had been carried by many 'credible' major outlets, and posted in haste. Of course, with any unproven story, I'd have been wise to have checked for more recent updates. Once I realized I hadn't followed up the story, I tried googling to see if the claims were ever investigated...because yes, I only remembered the initial allegations, and yes, I'm fully aware of the way this kind of thing grows legs and sticks around even if it is challenged. I did find articles that said Haaretz had walked back the claim that the Israeli government had admitted that birth control was forced on ethiopian immigrants. At that time, Israel did issue a statement to doctors to tell them not to administer birth control unless the women knew exactly what it was they were receiving....an odd statement to make (common sense?) at that particular time....even if the statement was not an admission, it still smelled like trying to 'get in front' of a problem...and that is what led to the poor overreach by Haaretz. The correction does show that the article wasn't substantiated by the government, but it doesn't make the allegations false. I found articles that said an investigation would be undertaken by a rabbi from Likud, complaining that the man they put in charge had opposed bringing the ethiopians to israel from the start...but then the trail went cold. I read a number of articles before passing out....I never did find my answer, and don't have time to keep digging today at work. Was this investigation ever completed? Not that I would trust an internal investigation by any government agency. Still, it was apparent from the minute I started googling that I had to add a caveat to my post, so I did. Was this a policy initiative? Highly unlikely. Could it have been an unofficial undertaking in the transfer camps? Possibly. Could it have been a few racist doctors, manipulating these women? Possibly. And could it have been an overzealous documentarian looking for a sensational story? Again, possibly.
    For the record - i never inferred anything about forced sterilization. although I am aware that some news outlets 'went there' after that documentary aired. I also knew that you would waste no time discrediting the story and I would be raked over the coals by the time I woke up...funny (but not surprising) considering how long it took you to answer mickey's question, and how often you post here these days.
    I have to wonder what the incentive was for Israel's ethiopian migrant initiatives. Was it a demographic thing? Whole-hearted benevolence?
    Or maybe just warm bodies for settlement expansion projects? I'd be curious to see where the public housing they received was located...couldn't find any info on that, either.


    I saw another story from Haaretz last night when googling discussing the results of a Knesset study undertaken in the wake of these accusations. I should have posted a link when I found it cause for some reason since last night it seems to have gone behind the paywall. I was half asleep so I don't really remember the details, but the gist of it was that there definitely was no official government policy, and that to the extent that there may have been any wrongdoing by individual doctors and health providers, which there didn't seem to be any hard evidence of, it would have occurred in health clinics that the government didn't have any direct hand in running.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • yosiyosi Posts: 2,213
    So interested to see what you all do with this story:

    Likud Lawmaker Sponsors Bill Mandating Arabic Education in Israeli Schools
    Support pours in from left and right, as well as Israeli President Rivlin

    By Yair Rosenberg|May 29, 2015

    It’s safe to say that Likud MK Oren Hazan never expected to be in the Knesset at all. Ranked 30th on his party’s list, in a slot reserved for a youth candidate, Hazan was never projected by any pre-election polls to make it into Israel’s parliament. But after Likud’s surprisingly decisive victory garnered it 30 seats, Hazan found himself the beneficiary of the party’s electoral fortune. And this week, he began to flex his legislative muscles with a surprising proposal that has garnered support across the political spectrum: a bill that mandates early Arabic language education in Israeli schools.

    Hazan, 33, is a bit of a loose cannon, and certainly no bleeding heart. He lives in the controversial settlement city of Ariel, and is the son of conservative former Knesset member Yehiel Hazan. Earlier this year, the younger Hazan submitted a false Gaza war testimony to the anti-occupation group Breaking the Silence, with the aim of exposing their purportedly poor collection methods. (The ruse failed.) This background makes Hazan an unlikely champion for coexistence education reform, but that is the subject of his first major bill.

    Hazan’s legislation would require Arabic to be taught in Jewish schools beginning in the first grade. “Just as you won’t find an Arab citizen who doesn’t know Hebrew after completing 12 years of formal education,” he said, “so too, it’s inconceivable that we maintain a status quo in which a Jew who has completed 12 years schooling doesn’t know how to speak Arabic.”

    Hazan’s proposal also includes a parallel Hebrew program for Arab schools, though as he noted, most Arab citizens of Israel learn Hebrew as a manner of course.

    Learning Arabic, Hazan wrote in the bill’s text, “will allow students and citizens to understand one another.” Moreover, he added, “knowing the language of the other is the basis for understanding and mutual respect, which are necessary in the current situation in Israel.”

    Hazan explicitly linked the impetus for his bill to a recently aborted program to separate Jews and Palestinians on buses in the West Bank, chalking the push for the widely-panned plan down to fear. “In our daily reality, with Jews riding the buses in Judea and Samaria and hearing the Palestinians, they are usually afraid,” Hazan said. “With global terrorism and radical Islam on the rise, the lack of knowledge and understanding leads to fear.” Hazan’s hope is that Arabic education would enable Israelis to talk to Palestinians and dispel debilitating misconceptions. “Knowing the language and being able to communicate with different people can increase our sense of security and serve as a bridge between people,” he said.

    If adopted, Hazan’s proposal would dramatically bolster Arabic study among Israeli Jews from an early age. As the Times of Israel noted, “under the Israeli educational guidelines, Jewish schools are supposed to teach three hours of Arabic a week to 7th-10th graders. However, the directive is not strictly enforced and many institutions do not offer classes.”

    The Likud lawmaker’s bill has been endorsed by a wide array of figures across Israel’s ideological map, and has been signed by Knesset members from the far-left Meretz to the far-right Jewish Home. Yesterday, Israeli President Reuven Rivlin, who is a former Likud Speaker of the Knesset, came out in favor of the legislation’s essence in a speech before the leadership of Israel’s Center for a Shared Society.

    “When we seek confidence-building measures between Jews and Arabs, we must work to nurture the positive identities of each side, and from within these identities, reach out to the other’s culture and story,” he said. “Such outreach is first and foremost found in language. The Hebrew language must be learned to perfection by the Arabic population, but the time has come, that also the Arabic language will be learned by the Jewish population. Language leads from the ear to the heart.” (Rivlin, who speaks Arabic, made multiple references in his speech to Palestinian national poet Mahmoud Darwish, in a clear effort to model the discourse he hoped to see.)

    Given its diverse backing, Hazan’s bill appears likely to pass, though its details are still being negotiated. Its enactment would mark a rare bright spot in what has been a trying year for Jewish-Arab relations in Israel.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 20,603
    yosi said:

    mickeyrat said:

    yosi said:

    mickeyrat said:

    yosi said:

    mickeyrat said:

    Where do the ethiopian jews stand then. Frankly what you describe in my opinion is eastern european all others can get fucked.

    I'm not sure why you've come to that conclusion. Ethiopian Jews are considered Jews. The whole reason why there is a significant Ethiopian Jewish community in Israel is because of Operation Solomon, which was explicitly undertaken BECAUSE Israel considered them Jewish.
    whats that?

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-32813056
    That article doesn't contradict what I said. All I said was that they are recognized as Jews. I don't deny that Israel did a very poor job of absorbing the Ethiopians into Israeli society and that they face a range of hardships in Israel including outright discrimination. But that more or less describes the experience of most immigrants from pre-industrial countries in western industrial nations. That's not an excuse, but you seem to be making the point in order to depict Israel's abnormal failings, when it's really just proof that Israel shares in the normal failings of normal states.
    Normal states build settlements illegally on occupied land? Normal states keep their boots on the necks of occupied people for close to 50 years?
    Now you're changing the topic.
    Meanwhile in Israel is the topic.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • BS44325BS44325 Posts: 6,082
    benjs said:

    Nart, he's right. You need to take a step back and consider the posts, not the poster. I get that there's animosity between the two of you (and I refuse to read into it any more than that), but this is a discussion about facts. The statement that I posted, which BS agreed to, suggested a few things:

    -Obama believes in the right to criticize Israel for everything except its right to exist in some fashion
    -Those who criticize Israel do so just loudly enough as not to be morally reprehensible humans, and just quietly enough as not to actually drive change
    -There is precedent in the notion that Israel does not have concern for the well-being of the Palestinian people
    -The Palestinian people exist today (at all) because Israel fears the global isolation which would stem from a genocide at their hands
    -Israel's assistance in repairing a society crippled by Israel itself has been no better than the bare acceptable minimum

    You may not like his tone, or the way he goes about making his points, but BS just agreed with things that I had always assumed you and I agree on (at least partially). This was not said with any arrogance, or any bigotry - it was just a simple "I agree".

    I thought this "I agree" was pretty clear but I do take tissue with any critique of my "tone". My tone is tight.
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