Meanwhile back in Israel

badbrains

yosi said:

Dude, chill out. You're acting like a bully and a jerk. I don't know where your animosity is coming from. Clearly it's got a long history, cause I haven't seen BS say anything on this thread that would warrant the kind of rage you're throwing his way, which, by the way, he seems to be doing a pretty good job of not reciprocating.

First, I posted that I didn't see he answered because he went back and edited an earlier post. I was waiting for his response, thinking it would be a new post not an old posted edited with his answer.

as for my rage, you must of not saw his remark about me wanting all Israel and Jewish supporters to wear yellow stars. I'm not gonna let that go. I'm not gonna have some clown try to slander me on the Internet and turn a cheek. Would you? So sorry if my rage bothers you. Know the whole story before chiming in.

yosi

You're right, I didn't see that. And if you don't want to let that go that's fine. But he hasn't been saying anything like that on this thread, and you ignoring what he's actually writing and instead responding to an old slight isn't doing anything other than souring the conversation.

badbrains

yosi said:

You're right, I didn't see that. And if you don't want to let that go that's fine. But he hasn't been saying anything like that on this thread, and you ignoring what he's actually writing and instead responding to an old slight isn't doing anything other than souring the conversation.

Oh, see you didn't see that part where I offered an olive branch to him after he made that remark. He couldn't just accept it, he had to mock it. So I'll let it go when I feel is the time. Again, how would you feel? Don't give me no Mumbo jumbo bullshit "you'd let it go". Like ive said, I'd just about share a beer or smoke a toke with anyone in here but him. That says a lot.

yosi

Again, I don't care whether you let it go. That's your business. I'm just saying that if you can't bring yourself to respond rationally to what he's actually writing NOW, then maybe you just shouldn't respond to him at all. Cause at this point you're not accomplishing anything other than injecting uncalled-for negativity into the conversation.

BS44325

Holy crap. Sorry for working today boys. I didn't realize this forum required instantaneous replies. Tight rant though badbrains...it added a lot of depth to the conversation.

badbrains

Lol, the 2 apologists are trying to Eiffel Tower me.

mickeyrat

Simple solution, quote people. You may still get ignored but they cant edit.

yosi

badbrains said:

Lol, the 2 apologists are trying to Eiffel Tower me.

You sling an awful lot of mud without provocation for someone so upset about how someone else characterized him.

benjs

badbrains said:

yosi said:

You're right, I didn't see that. And if you don't want to let that go that's fine. But he hasn't been saying anything like that on this thread, and you ignoring what he's actually writing and instead responding to an old slight isn't doing anything other than souring the conversation.

Oh, see you didn't see that part where I offered an olive branch to him after he made that remark. He couldn't just accept it, he had to mock it. So I'll let it go when I feel is the time. Again, how would you feel? Don't give me no Mumbo jumbo bullshit "you'd let it go". Like ive said, I'd just about share a beer or smoke a toke with anyone in here but him. That says a lot.

Nart, two Jews are here suggesting you let go of a comment we both recognize as absurd, about Jews wearing yellow stars. If anyone would be unlikely to let it go - it would be either of us. I want this conversation to move forward, not go backwards. Until this conversation moves to become about the topic again as opposed to those discussing it, I'm sorry to say that I honestly don't see that happening. Don't you think if we thought his statement had ANY credence whatsoever we'd be holding him to a validating statement, and you to an apology?

Here's the original statement from BS (because most of us except for the internet archival tools have forgotten. The context - BS was being inquired about his religion, and had been for some time): "Well I guess I am not sure why it matters? Do different religions carry different weight on here? What if I am not religious at all? Would life be easier for you if some forum members wore a yellow star?"

This seems very obviously an extreme example to display the historical dangers of categorically linking a person to a sect, lest their opinion be put on a pedestal or in a hole whether consciously or subconsciously. This is not a statement suggesting you would do this in any way, shape or form, but the reality is, it is hard for any of us to strip ourselves of an inherent prejudice based on what we know, which is based on what we've been taught, which is based on who has indoctrinated us, which is based on where their prejudices came from.

The message I took out of it was as I stated above, and that it validates one's right to keep his or her religious affiliations to his or her self. Nart, you and I have readily offered our religious affiliations, but that is by choice, not obligation, and that's the way it should be. Not to mention, there are Zionists who aren't Jews, there are Jews who are anti-Zionism. I honestly could care less. We are talking about human issues.

Now, please, I am begging here, can we move the fuck on and talk about things that matter? I come here to learn, not to argue.

Last-12-Exit

I didn't know insofar was one word.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

benjs said:

badbrains said:

yosi said:

You're right, I didn't see that. And if you don't want to let that go that's fine. But he hasn't been saying anything like that on this thread, and you ignoring what he's actually writing and instead responding to an old slight isn't doing anything other than souring the conversation.

Oh, see you didn't see that part where I offered an olive branch to him after he made that remark. He couldn't just accept it, he had to mock it. So I'll let it go when I feel is the time. Again, how would you feel? Don't give me no Mumbo jumbo bullshit "you'd let it go". Like ive said, I'd just about share a beer or smoke a toke with anyone in here but him. That says a lot.

Nart, two Jews are here suggesting you let go of a comment we both recognize as absurd, about Jews wearing yellow stars. If anyone would be unlikely to let it go - it would be either of us. I want this conversation to move forward, not go backwards. Until this conversation moves to become about the topic again as opposed to those discussing it, I'm sorry to say that I honestly don't see that happening. Don't you think if we thought his statement had ANY credence whatsoever we'd be holding him to a validating statement, and you to an apology?

Here's the original statement from BS (because most of us except for the internet archival tools have forgotten. The context - BS was being inquired about his religion, and had been for some time): "Well I guess I am not sure why it matters? Do different religions carry different weight on here? What if I am not religious at all? Would life be easier for you if some forum members wore a yellow star?"

This seems very obviously an extreme example to display the historical dangers of categorically linking a person to a sect, lest their opinion be put on a pedestal or in a hole whether consciously or subconsciously. This is not a statement suggesting you would do this in any way, shape or form, but the reality is, it is hard for any of us to strip ourselves of an inherent prejudice based on what we know, which is based on what we've been taught, which is based on who has indoctrinated us, which is based on where their prejudices came from.

The message I took out of it was as I stated above, and that it validates one's right to keep his or her religious affiliations to his or her self. Nart, you and I have readily offered our religious affiliations, but that is by choice, not obligation, and that's the way it should be. Not to mention, there are Zionists who aren't Jews, there are Jews who are anti-Zionism. I honestly could care less. We are talking about human issues.

Now, please, I am begging here, can we move the fuck on and talk about things that matter? I come here to learn, not to argue.

You have done a really good job placing this in its proper perspective.

benjs

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

benjs said:

badbrains said:

yosi said:

You're right, I didn't see that. And if you don't want to let that go that's fine. But he hasn't been saying anything like that on this thread, and you ignoring what he's actually writing and instead responding to an old slight isn't doing anything other than souring the conversation.

Oh, see you didn't see that part where I offered an olive branch to him after he made that remark. He couldn't just accept it, he had to mock it. So I'll let it go when I feel is the time. Again, how would you feel? Don't give me no Mumbo jumbo bullshit "you'd let it go". Like ive said, I'd just about share a beer or smoke a toke with anyone in here but him. That says a lot.

Nart, two Jews are here suggesting you let go of a comment we both recognize as absurd, about Jews wearing yellow stars. If anyone would be unlikely to let it go - it would be either of us. I want this conversation to move forward, not go backwards. Until this conversation moves to become about the topic again as opposed to those discussing it, I'm sorry to say that I honestly don't see that happening. Don't you think if we thought his statement had ANY credence whatsoever we'd be holding him to a validating statement, and you to an apology?

Here's the original statement from BS (because most of us except for the internet archival tools have forgotten. The context - BS was being inquired about his religion, and had been for some time): "Well I guess I am not sure why it matters? Do different religions carry different weight on here? What if I am not religious at all? Would life be easier for you if some forum members wore a yellow star?"

This seems very obviously an extreme example to display the historical dangers of categorically linking a person to a sect, lest their opinion be put on a pedestal or in a hole whether consciously or subconsciously. This is not a statement suggesting you would do this in any way, shape or form, but the reality is, it is hard for any of us to strip ourselves of an inherent prejudice based on what we know, which is based on what we've been taught, which is based on who has indoctrinated us, which is based on where their prejudices came from.

The message I took out of it was as I stated above, and that it validates one's right to keep his or her religious affiliations to his or her self. Nart, you and I have readily offered our religious affiliations, but that is by choice, not obligation, and that's the way it should be. Not to mention, there are Zionists who aren't Jews, there are Jews who are anti-Zionism. I honestly could care less. We are talking about human issues.

Now, please, I am begging here, can we move the fuck on and talk about things that matter? I come here to learn, not to argue.

You have done a really good job placing this in its proper perspective.

Thanks, Thirty. I'm just really frustrated at the direction this thread has taken, and it doesn't feel like we're progressing at all.

benjs

Edited. Please ignore, working on something here.

mickeyrat

umm , keep em ignorant and less than I guess....


http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2015/6/5/israels-funding-policy-on-christian-schools-spurs-controvery.html

yosi

mickeyrat said:

umm , keep em ignorant and less than I guess....


http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2015/6/5/israels-funding-policy-on-christian-schools-spurs-controvery.html

Not a bad read, although I think the reality of what's going on is, in part at least, a bit more complex than the article suggests. Specifically, the article makes a point of noting how much funding goes to the ultra-orthodox yeshivot without any discussion of what is driving that spending. The resulting contrast suggests a purely discriminatory motive. I don't doubt that discriminatory bias is part of the story. But that isn't what's driving the Jewish side of the equation. The incredible funding for the yeshivot is a symptom of Israel's coalition politics, which affords outsize influence to small ultra-orthodox political parties, which are often in a position to make or break coalitions. Securing state funding for their yeshivot is among these parties' chief concerns, and they have essentially been demanding ever more increasing funds as the price for their support in forming a ruling coalition. Secular Israelis hate this dynamic, as they generally see the ultra-orthodox as parasitic, taking enormous amounts of funds from the state without giving anything back. But the secular parties are divided over the conflict with the Palestinians, so addressing the issues of the ultra-orthodox in Israel is basically on the back burner indefinitely.

benjs

yosi said:

mickeyrat said:

umm , keep em ignorant and less than I guess....


http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2015/6/5/israels-funding-policy-on-christian-schools-spurs-controvery.html

Not a bad read, although I think the reality of what's going on is, in part at least, a bit more complex than the article suggests. Specifically, the article makes a point of noting how much funding goes to the ultra-orthodox yeshivot without any discussion of what is driving that spending. The resulting contrast suggests a purely discriminatory motive. I don't doubt that discriminatory bias is part of the story. But that isn't what's driving the Jewish side of the equation. The incredible funding for the yeshivot is a symptom of Israel's coalition politics, which affords outsize influence to small ultra-orthodox political parties, which are often in a position to make or break coalitions. Securing state funding for their yeshivot is among these parties' chief concerns, and they have essentially been demanding ever more increasing funds as the price for their support in forming a ruling coalition. Secular Israelis hate this dynamic, as they generally see the ultra-orthodox as parasitic, taking enormous amounts of funds from the state without giving anything back. But the secular parties are divided over the conflict with the Palestinians, so addressing the issues of the ultra-orthodox in Israel is basically on the back burner indefinitely.

From everything I've read about the political landscape in Israel, I'm pretty sure this is dead-on. The ultra-Orthodox Haredi seem to be akin to swing states in America - politicians exert major effort to win the vote of this group, as they often amount to making or breaking a coalition. As far as the Christian side, as you said, definitely at least partially a discriminatory issue.

dignin

http://www.btselem.org/south_hebron_hills/20150604_birkat_al_karmel


Soldiers Expel Palestinians from Pool in Area A to Enable Settlers to Bathe Undisturbed

Halifax2TheMax

Is there any good news that comes out of this country?

mickeyrat

Depends on whos doing the reporting. And what perspective they bring.


I recently recognized something about newsreports with graphics. Maps of Israel show the occupied territories as within established Israeli borders. As if it were just Israel. Rather than showing the true borders with a differentiation of the occupied areas.

badbrains

Halifax2TheMax said:

Is there any good news that comes out of this country?

Apparently NOT. Wow, this shits fucken disturbing.

https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/video-israeli-soldiers-brutally-beat-palestinian-dad