Beheaded by ISIS

PJ_Soul said:

Well, sure, women are great, lol. But the point is that any society in this day and age that basically renders over 50% of its population useless when it comes to education, the economy, and the government, and blocks most feminine influence from those things, there is no way for that society to be anything other than a complete fucking mess.

Yup. Given the maternal side of my heritage, my first thoughts went to Iran.

PJ_Soul said:

lukin2006 said:

PJ_Soul said:

badbrains said:

lukin2006 said:

badbrains said:

lukin2006 said:

I know I wouldn't move to a land that I felt it's policies are effecting my homeland ,,, but that's just me. Personally I think they immigrate to the west for a better life, to get away from all the violence, their bat shit crazy leaders, etc ... and not all the violence has the stamp of the west on it. Yet the terrorist and radicals insist on destroying the lives of the innocent westerners who have 0 influence into their countries policies. Personally I think the west should just get completely get out of the middle east and that includes giving any country in the middle east 1 $$$ of aid ... and guaranteed even if the west got completely out, we'd still be blamed for something and the violence would still exist.

You were fortunate enough to be born in the west. Congrats

I agree I was ... my forefathers who came to this country contributed immensely to this land, Life was not always easy in Canada. Many Canadian forefathers worked long hours providing for their family, many still work long hours in the diamond mines of the north or in the Alberta oil fields ... many leave their communities and travel thousand of kilometres for this type of work because their is very little work in their communities ... Newfoundlanders are great examples of people who travel great distances for a better life and thats within their own country.

So my question is with all the oil wealth in the middle east how come the middle hasn't been able to build thriving countries?

Really asking that question about oil with a straight face? I can't nor won't even answer that question for you. Do some research on the west and oil in the Mid East. It'll help you out for when you post about it.

Anyone ever noticed that there is no such thing as a thriving nation when it also restricts the role of women in society?

I agree ... woman are incredible people and we should want them contributing to every aspect of our society if the choose.

Well, sure, women are great, lol. But the point is that any society in this day and age that basically renders over 50% of its population useless when it comes to education, the economy, and the government, and blocks most feminine influence from those things, there is no way for that society to be anything other than a complete fucking mess.

I agree ...

Idris said:

bootlegger10 said:

fuck said:

I can't believe how kuc

bootlegger10 said:

PJ_Soul said:

fuck said:

Regarding the "moderate Muslims need to do more to combat extremism" line:

I think it's very condescending for someone in a position of privilege to talk to Muslims living in the Middle East this way. Tell me, what are YOU doing to combat Western imperial policies that allow for extremism to grow? As Drowned Out accurately mentioned, there is a long history of imperial and colonial practices by Western powers in the Middle East/South Asia/North Africa that allowed extremism to grow. And I often find on this board that many of you end up supporting some of these policies because there is a clear refusal to actually engage with history. How did the Middle East become the way it did? What are these extremists a product of? What are they actually rebelling against? If we continue to just ignore legitimate grievances of Muslims living in the Middle East and confront our policies that continue to contribute to the disenfranchisement of these people, that continue to support dictators and settler-colonies that occupy and ethnically cleanse other people, then there will naturally be movements that grow to counter this. And so long as the US and its allies continue to fight this (or pretend to) with the same policies that created them in the first place, then where do you think the "moderate" Muslims are left? In between armed thugs and the world's biggest military, without the ability to even live normal lives.

Meanwhile, here you all are saying why aren't they doing enough. How about you do something? It's ironic to me that some of you even openly acknowledge that our policies created ISIS, but then support US military involvement in northern Iraq because "we created the mess [by intervening militarily] so now we have to fix it [by intervening militarily]." It's just interesting that there does not appear to be any critical thinking here. Any serious questioning of past policies specifically with regards to how they reflect our future engagement with this part of the world, is just nonexistent. And then we just blame the victims for not "doing enough" without actually being aware of the various debates going on in the Middle East, the trends and movements that exist there, how deep our own involvement is, etc etc. Nope, it's just "them" that aren't doing enough.

I wasn't talking about Muslims in the Middle East only. I was talking about Muslims all over the world.
I can't remember fuck. Are you Muslim? If you are, then you have a different perspective on this thinking than the Muslims I've spoken to about it. I have seen only complete agreement from Muslims about how the Muslim world needs to do way, way more to combat Islamic extremism all over the world. The Muslims I've personally spoken to about it were: 1) 2nd generation Canadian, 2) Muslim of Indian decent raised and living in Thailand after being educated in Canada, 3) Iraqi refugee in Canada (his father was a member of the Iraqi communist party and escaped persecution with his family in the 1990s), 4) a Muslim born and raised in the UK, 5) a particularly devout Muslim from Bangladesh, 6) a Nigerian Muslim in Canada as a mature international student. Every one of these 6 people said that they completely agreed that the Muslim world has to do more to counter extremism, and 2 of them told me that they thought the reason more isn't done is because they believe Muslims tend to side with Muslims first no matter what - they said it was a sense of obligation to other Muslims that kept a lot of people from standing stronger against extremists. These people are not, of course, experts on the subject. They are just random Muslims (all men, btw... not sure if women might have a different perspective). So take it for what it's worth. Just thought their opinions were interesting and the seemed to support my supposition that the Muslim world needs to do more to stop and prevent Islamic extremism.

Can you post a link to an article to support your claims of Muslim friends? And if you do post one, I will say it is full of lies and then post a link to "antiwar.com" and claim it is unbiased.

I just thought I would predict the future and get the next argument over with.

What are you blabbering about? Have you actually said anything meaningful in this thread that is not based off of conjecture? No? Carry on then.

It is all about the couple of folks on this board who hate the US and Israel,

Who are these people?

Was wondering that myself.

These debates sure take some interesting turns sometimes.

bootlegger10 said:

fuck said:

I can't believe how kuc

bootlegger10 said:

PJ_Soul said:

fuck said:

Regarding the "moderate Muslims need to do more to combat extremism" line:

I think it's very condescending for someone in a position of privilege to talk to Muslims living in the Middle East this way. Tell me, what are YOU doing to combat Western imperial policies that allow for extremism to grow? As Drowned Out accurately mentioned, there is a long history of imperial and colonial practices by Western powers in the Middle East/South Asia/North Africa that allowed extremism to grow. And I often find on this board that many of you end up supporting some of these policies because there is a clear refusal to actually engage with history. How did the Middle East become the way it did? What are these extremists a product of? What are they actually rebelling against? If we continue to just ignore legitimate grievances of Muslims living in the Middle East and confront our policies that continue to contribute to the disenfranchisement of these people, that continue to support dictators and settler-colonies that occupy and ethnically cleanse other people, then there will naturally be movements that grow to counter this. And so long as the US and its allies continue to fight this (or pretend to) with the same policies that created them in the first place, then where do you think the "moderate" Muslims are left? In between armed thugs and the world's biggest military, without the ability to even live normal lives.

Meanwhile, here you all are saying why aren't they doing enough. How about you do something? It's ironic to me that some of you even openly acknowledge that our policies created ISIS, but then support US military involvement in northern Iraq because "we created the mess [by intervening militarily] so now we have to fix it [by intervening militarily]." It's just interesting that there does not appear to be any critical thinking here. Any serious questioning of past policies specifically with regards to how they reflect our future engagement with this part of the world, is just nonexistent. And then we just blame the victims for not "doing enough" without actually being aware of the various debates going on in the Middle East, the trends and movements that exist there, how deep our own involvement is, etc etc. Nope, it's just "them" that aren't doing enough.

I wasn't talking about Muslims in the Middle East only. I was talking about Muslims all over the world.
I can't remember fuck. Are you Muslim? If you are, then you have a different perspective on this thinking than the Muslims I've spoken to about it. I have seen only complete agreement from Muslims about how the Muslim world needs to do way, way more to combat Islamic extremism all over the world. The Muslims I've personally spoken to about it were: 1) 2nd generation Canadian, 2) Muslim of Indian decent raised and living in Thailand after being educated in Canada, 3) Iraqi refugee in Canada (his father was a member of the Iraqi communist party and escaped persecution with his family in the 1990s), 4) a Muslim born and raised in the UK, 5) a particularly devout Muslim from Bangladesh, 6) a Nigerian Muslim in Canada as a mature international student. Every one of these 6 people said that they completely agreed that the Muslim world has to do more to counter extremism, and 2 of them told me that they thought the reason more isn't done is because they believe Muslims tend to side with Muslims first no matter what - they said it was a sense of obligation to other Muslims that kept a lot of people from standing stronger against extremists. These people are not, of course, experts on the subject. They are just random Muslims (all men, btw... not sure if women might have a different perspective). So take it for what it's worth. Just thought their opinions were interesting and the seemed to support my supposition that the Muslim world needs to do more to stop and prevent Islamic extremism.

Can you post a link to an article to support your claims of Muslim friends? And if you do post one, I will say it is full of lies and then post a link to "antiwar.com" and claim it is unbiased.

I just thought I would predict the future and get the next argument over with.

What are you blabbering about? Have you actually said anything meaningful in this thread that is not based off of conjecture? No? Carry on then.

Carry on. Christians murdered for being Christians in Iraq, and it is all the US's fault. Not the actual murderers themselves.

See, this is a problem.

Who said all fault is on the US?

The entire point is this, ISIS is a symptom of our policy (policies), our policy is dangerous, and it breeds danger.

So in order to truly correct this problem, this danger, we need to get to the root of this problem, this danger...Our Policies.

This does not absolve ISIS, they are guilty of the innocents they killed, but we just need to know that our policies paved the way for them and until we change said dangerous polices, nothing really changes, we kill ISIS, a group even worse will pop up.

So what do we do with ISIS, well, what exactly do they want? an Islamic State? alright, let them fight over it, it does not concern us, They have fought for thousands of years, they will be fine, Or if they all kill themselves, bring upon their own demise, then at least, it's by their own hands...Not Ours.

Our hands should be off.

But we have interests to protect, expand the empire. Another 'root' we need to continue to discuss.

badbrains said:

PjSoul, here's an article you might find very interesting, about Muslims around the world SPEAKING out against IS:

http://mediamatters.org/research/2014/08/21/muslim-leaders-have-roundly-denounced-islamic-s/200498

That is very interesting badbrains. I don't actually usually consume conservative media, so that is not where I am getting my impression of what's going on. But at any rate, I do fully acknowledge that many Muslim leaders speak against extremism. Of course. I see such statements on a regular basis, and am always happy to see it. But it isn't enough. Brief statements against extremism isn't very helpful (not that it isn't somewhat helpful I guess. I hope those who might lean towards extremism are somehow affected by these kinds of statements... but realistically, probably not). But what I would consider constructive opposition to extremism within Muslim communities around the world would be much more specific and concentrated, and coming straight from the people. Mass protests (I do know of a few of these, but very few, considering). Community initiatives. Education. A bigger radical (for them) feminist movement. I know this is a complicated issue that involves many factors, and dangers for some people, but the fact remains that more could be done in the Muslim world, assuming the concern among Muslims is as high as I'm lead to believe, combined with how intense Islamic extremists are right now in the world and how many people they are killing or displacing. It's pretty fucking crazy.

This doesn't mean that I don't think there is real concern among normal Muslims. But considering the extreme conditions in the world when it comes to Islamic extremists (pun), and how it negatively (unfairly) impacts moderate Muslims on an international level, it just seems like the issue should be confronted in a more head on kind of way within their own communities. That's just what it seems like to me, and as I mentioned, the few Muslims I've talked to about it have agreed. Hopefully more focused opposition from Muslims will come about. But that doesn't discount any opposition that already exists.

Hope that came across okay.... i took out a friend for his bday, and I am loaded. :P

Byrnzie said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

And Byrnzie... why must you always belittle people on this board? Nobody appreciates the you managed to get two lols in there good for you, lol post you felt the need to throw out there.

Are you really gonna start that shit again? Pretending to be offended by every little thing I say? Seriously, it got boring a long time ago.

I'm not pretending that your internet behaviour is obnoxious at times. Intelligent people are capable of making their points without trying to make the other person look stupid as a 'go to' tactic.

And I'm more amused than offended. Your act is the most predictable of this on-line community.