Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Regardless of how byrnzie and fuck present their arguments, they are always factual and evidence based. I think it's a little too convenient that the two most informed people on this board in regards to the middle east, definitely in regards to the I/P conflict, are the two people that you claim scare people away with their style of debate.... Everyone that disagrees with them (with B in particular, I haven't seen anyone complain about fuck before now), have such hard-ons for them, that if they could prove them wrong, they'd jump at the chance. Also....I personally wouldn't have bothered calling you out on the unsubstantiated opinions of your 'six friends'...and it raised an eyebrow a bit to see you accused of doing this often....But here you are with these 'I know a LOT of people who won't participate' / 'most people won't even stick around to talk' comments....like...if that's the case, tell those people to grow a pair and speak for themselves, or to stfu. And if you don't want to do that, name them.....or.....just don't bring them up to try to sway readers to your side......I've even seen you talk shit about B on fb, in a PJ group he isnt a member of. And you call them insulting? I don't know if you think of myself or ben the same way....maybe I'm one of the 'others' you're vaguely mentioning....but I challenged you on what you took from that poll, arguing that it is a snapshot without context, not the whole story....Ben challenged the semantics framing the poll itself - two points that, if combined, make up a good chunk of what fuck and B were saying....you could have addressed them without dealing with either of the two that frustrate you so....what I'm saying is...you took part in this little sideshow as much as they did.
I'll be honest; I read most of the threads that Byrnzie posts in because they are a great source of information but I try to avoid posting because I find posters like Byrnzie and Fuck to be incredibly hostile and antagonistic. I generally find that I agree with what they post however I am very reluctant to engage either them in conversation because they are absolutely merciless with people they disagree with. A number of people on these boards are guilty of generalizations (I know that I am), but some posters really take pleasure in taking you task for it. As near as I can tell, this thread jumped the shark when Badbrains made an overreaching generalization concerning the number of Muslims who are peaceful which was in turn followed up by another unsupported, overreaching generalization from PJ_Soul. Both claims were unsubstantiated and completely absurd however it seems that PJ_Soul is taking far more heat for her claim than Badbrains, complete with vitriolic comments and underhanded slights. It's that nastiness that makes participating in these forums exceedingly difficult.
I honestly find myself feeling anxious whenever I post here so I generally avoid doing so. These forums are simply too hostile for my tastes.
I'll apologize for my 99.9999999999% of Muslims are peaceful. I just figured everyone knew it was kind of sly remark to be taken lightly. Cuz in reality, NO religion, country or whatever has 99.999999999999% peaceful people. NO ONE. I'm not trying to be hostile towards you, just trying to clear up my part.
No worries. I didn't really take any issue with your post. I appreciate that the number was something of an exaggeration. I only mentioned it because I found the hostility directed towards PJ_Soul to be quite off putting. I don't agree with her numbers but I don't see why posters feel the need to be snarky or condescending about it either. It seems rather unreasonable to rip into somebody for making a generalization and it's something I truly dislike about the train.
Let me be clear; I find that most of the posters here are pretty cordial. I simply find that there are a few individuals who tend to be extremely hostile. I tend to avoid posting because I don't really want to get into a pissing contest with some of the more aggressive members on the train. Badbrains, you've never come across as anything but a class act from what I've seen. I think I can say that about most people here however there are a few posters that are just too confrontational for me to post here regularly.
Me, a class act? Wtf, I'm gonna have to start some shit with somebody FAST! Who to start with........hmmmmm,
I wonder what Pandora might have to say on this subject.
:-?
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
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hedonist
standing on the edge of forever Posts: 24,524
C'mon...she's not around (anymore) to defend herself.
(I actually was gonna say something similar on the god thread but refrained)
blueandwhite, for what it's worth, I hope you do contribute / participate more. Levelheadedness and being well-spoken are always welcome here.
I've been following this and other related threads, and do appreciate the information shared from pretty much all participants. But yeah, could do without sniping taking over the issues themselves.
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mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 35,852
sudden sense of "I have heard this kind of stuff before."
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Regardless of how byrnzie and fuck present their arguments, they are always factual and evidence based. I think it's a little too convenient that the two most informed people on this board in regards to the middle east, definitely in regards to the I/P conflict, are the two people that you claim scare people away with their style of debate.... Everyone that disagrees with them (with B in particular, I haven't seen anyone complain about fuck before now), have such hard-ons for them, that if they could prove them wrong, they'd jump at the chance. Also....I personally wouldn't have bothered calling you out on the unsubstantiated opinions of your 'six friends'...and it raised an eyebrow a bit to see you accused of doing this often....But here you are with these 'I know a LOT of people who won't participate' / 'most people won't even stick around to talk' comments....like...if that's the case, tell those people to grow a pair and speak for themselves, or to stfu. And if you don't want to do that, name them.....or.....just don't bring them up to try to sway readers to your side......I've even seen you talk shit about B on fb, in a PJ group he isnt a member of. And you call them insulting? I don't know if you think of myself or ben the same way....maybe I'm one of the 'others' you're vaguely mentioning....but I challenged you on what you took from that poll, arguing that it is a snapshot without context, not the whole story....Ben challenged the semantics framing the poll itself - two points that, if combined, make up a good chunk of what fuck and B were saying....you could have addressed them without dealing with either of the two that frustrate you so....what I'm saying is...you took part in this little sideshow as much as they did.
I'm actually not trying to sway anyone to "my side". I said one sentence about B on FB weeks ago when other people were talking about him and that anti-war thread. Not going to feel bad about that, especially considering how many time he's suggested that I'm an idiot.
That accusation of me "doing that often" was a bullshit lie. I can't believe anyone thinks we're not "allowed" to talk about things we've heard through word of mouth. If we're not going to consider things that we glean from face to face discussions then I guess we should just stop talking about shit altogether, since apparently there is no point. I very reasonably told everyone what some people said to me in conversations, and told everyone that they could take that as they like. It's unsubstantiated because I didn't record the conversations. Not sure why you seem to think that I presented that as though the conversations amounted to unarguable fact in the context of the overall discussion. When see someone say, "I talked to these people from that community and this is what they said" I'd take it for what it is. Someone passing on what they heard from an few people. In didn't mean for that to have any more bearing than that. So unless you actually think I am making it up, I find it bizarre that you'd have an issue with it.
What I am talking about has nothing to do with whether or not they are right or wrong in terms of the topic.
No, I don't think of you or anyone else is the same way because no one else calls various people stupid in every post.
As for any points about the polls I posted... i told everyone what I surmise from it. People don't have to agree. I simply am not going on about it because I've stated what my takeaway is and there just isn't anymore for me to say about it.
Ok....You said 'a few other people' when talking about the Byrnzie and fuck show. Glad you don't think of me or anyone else that way. And I don't think word of mouth is inadmissible in debate...just not a very effective way to prove a point. I said I wouldn't have brought it up....I only did to point out that you were doing it again with your he said/she said gossip about people staying away from these discussions. Those comments were no more constructive than some of the petty shit you're calling them out on. Anyway.....back to our regularly scheduled bickering.....
Did I say a few other people were like those two? I don't think I did.... either you misread ot or I misspoke.
You're right, I misread that line. I think someone else was making similar but less specific comments in one of the I/P threads and I blended the sentiments. My apologies.
To blueandwhite - the difference between the two 'jump the shark' posts was that badbrains' could be considered at worst downplaying extremism in his religion. Pj soul's, at worst, sounded islamophobic....that gets people fired up around here. Don't believe me, ask godfather
To the rest of your post....I sincerely wish more people would join in these conversations.... This thread is proof that the regs here will take their 'rivals', and even their friends, to task for their treatment of others. If someone is blatantly being a dick, they will get called on it.
The people who post here regularly, get themselves in shit by letting emotion control their prose....so someone inexperienced at online debate, or not extremely well read on a topic, would be wise not to jump into the pissing matches with emotion based comments, because it does take a thick skin once it gets fucking hostile (sorry those words have to be used in tandem ). But I think for the most part, you have to be participating in the pissing to get pissed on! Also, and this is important - If your (not you B&W, in general) only knowledge of a topic is from the evening news, recognize that before forming a strong opinion and trying to get on a soapbox. People who have informed opinions about ANY topic, from EITHER side, are easily agitated by people who jump in and start repeating cable news talking points in a cocky or aggressive way. If you come in humbly and give your 2c, even if you're out to lunch, I think it's pretty rare to get belittled.
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mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 35,852
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
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hedonist
standing on the edge of forever Posts: 24,524
Oh. Well...yes
Thank you for clarifying.
And Drowned - well said, per usual (though I laughed at "even if you're out to lunch")
For the record, I am not Islamophobic at all (and I don't think one could honestly reach that conclusion if they read everything I've said on the subject).
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
For the record, I am not Islamophobic at all (and I don't think one could honestly reach that conclusion if they read everything I've said on the subject).
you are def outspokenly critical of many aspects of Islam...I try to keep my opinions on religion to myself, but I will say that I agree with some of your criticisms of islam in a broad sense, even if not the peripherals. Still, I find myself defending muslims all the time, which feels weird as an atheist-leaning agnostic...I pretty much never defend christianity or judaism or any other religion....But I defend islam because I think Islamophobia is right up there with apathy and ignorance as the reasons we allow our politicians and their puppet masters to wage wars. But I don't think you're islamophobic, and I'd hoped my 'at worst' was enough qualification.
And Drowned - well said, per usual (though I laughed at "even if you're out to lunch")
Why's that funny? Someone's gotta be wrong in every debate.....right?
I don't know if this is a Canadian short, or if it was played in other countries...but this was drilled into my head during saturday morning cartoons as a kid, and I think of it often on AMT....(def don't always take the lesson from it tho) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYg7_yYuXPM (may have even posted it here before, I know i've wanted to)
For the record, I am not Islamophobic at all (and I don't think one could honestly reach that conclusion if they read everything I've said on the subject).
you are def outspokenly critical of many aspects of Islam...I try to keep my opinions on religion to myself, but I will say that I agree with some of your criticisms of islam in a broad sense, even if not the peripherals. Still, I find myself defending muslims all the time, which feels weird as an atheist-leaning agnostic...I pretty much never defend christianity or judaism or any other religion....But I defend islam because I think Islamophobia is right up there with apathy and ignorance as the reasons we allow our politicians and their puppet masters to wage wars. But I don't think you're islamophobic, and I'd hoped my 'at worst' was enough qualification.
You're right, I am very outspoken about certain aspects of Islam, which is largely driven by the position that Muslim women are in because of certain Islamic beliefs/practices. Of course, I'm also very outspoken about all other religions and/or cultural practices, especially if they impact equality for women or homosexuals or any other group. Theocracies also offend me, and unfortunately Islam dictates that government and religion go hand in hand. And i am also very critical of all fundamentalism and extremism... it just so happens that it's Islamic extremism is the kind that is most impacting the world right now and is most discussed here on these boards. For my opinions on the subject I am wholeheartedly unapologetic. However, I am actually generally in agreement with you and Byrnzie and fuck when it comes to ISIS and Gaza. Just because I speak out against those parts of Islam that I oppose it doesn't mean I am against Muslims any more than I am against Christians or Jews. I am universally against fundamentalism and religious extremism.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Regardless of how byrnzie and fuck present their arguments, they are always factual and evidence based. I think it's a little too convenient that the two most informed people on this board in regards to the middle east, definitely in regards to the I/P conflict, are the two people that you claim scare people away with their style of debate.... Everyone that disagrees with them (with B in particular, I haven't seen anyone complain about fuck before now), have such hard-ons for them, that if they could prove them wrong, they'd jump at the chance. Also....I personally wouldn't have bothered calling you out on the unsubstantiated opinions of your 'six friends'...and it raised an eyebrow a bit to see you accused of doing this often....But here you are with these 'I know a LOT of people who won't participate' / 'most people won't even stick around to talk' comments....like...if that's the case, tell those people to grow a pair and speak for themselves, or to stfu. And if you don't want to do that, name them.....or.....just don't bring them up to try to sway readers to your side......I've even seen you talk shit about B on fb, in a PJ group he isnt a member of. And you call them insulting? I don't know if you think of myself or ben the same way....maybe I'm one of the 'others' you're vaguely mentioning....but I challenged you on what you took from that poll, arguing that it is a snapshot without context, not the whole story....Ben challenged the semantics framing the poll itself - two points that, if combined, make up a good chunk of what fuck and B were saying....you could have addressed them without dealing with either of the two that frustrate you so....what I'm saying is...you took part in this little sideshow as much as they did.
I'm actually not trying to sway anyone to "my side". I said one sentence about B on FB weeks ago when other people were talking about him and that anti-war thread. Not going to feel bad about that, especially considering how many time he's suggested that I'm an idiot.
That accusation of me "doing that often" was a bullshit lie. I can't believe anyone thinks we're not "allowed" to talk about things we've heard through word of mouth. If we're not going to consider things that we glean from face to face discussions then I guess we should just stop talking about shit altogether, since apparently there is no point. I very reasonably told everyone what some people said to me in conversations, and told everyone that they could take that as they like. It's unsubstantiated because I didn't record the conversations. Not sure why you seem to think that I presented that as though the conversations amounted to unarguable fact in the context of the overall discussion. When see someone say, "I talked to these people from that community and this is what they said" I'd take it for what it is. Someone passing on what they heard from an few people. In didn't mean for that to have any more bearing than that. So unless you actually think I am making it up, I find it bizarre that you'd have an issue with it.
What I am talking about has nothing to do with whether or not they are right or wrong in terms of the topic.
No, I don't think of you or anyone else is the same way because no one else calls various people stupid in every post.
As for any points about the polls I posted... i told everyone what I surmise from it. People don't have to agree. I simply am not going on about it because I've stated what my takeaway is and there just isn't anymore for me to say about it.
Ok....You said 'a few other people' when talking about the Byrnzie and fuck show. Glad you don't think of me or anyone else that way. And I don't think word of mouth is inadmissible in debate...just not a very effective way to prove a point. I said I wouldn't have brought it up....I only did to point out that you were doing it again with your he said/she said gossip about people staying away from these discussions. Those comments were no more constructive than some of the petty shit you're calling them out on. Anyway.....back to our regularly scheduled bickering.....
Did I say a few other people were like those two? I don't think I did.... either you misread ot or I misspoke.
You're right, I misread that line. I think someone else was making similar but less specific comments in one of the I/P threads and I blended the sentiments. My apologies.
To blueandwhite - the difference between the two 'jump the shark' posts was that badbrains' could be considered at worst downplaying extremism in his religion. Pj soul's, at worst, sounded islamophobic....that gets people fired up around here. Don't believe me, ask godfather
To the rest of your post....I sincerely wish more people would join in these conversations.... This thread is proof that the regs here will take their 'rivals', and even their friends, to task for their treatment of others. If someone is blatantly being a dick, they will get called on it.
The people who post here regularly, get themselves in shit by letting emotion control their prose....so someone inexperienced at online debate, or not extremely well read on a topic, would be wise not to jump into the pissing matches with emotion based comments, because it does take a thick skin once it gets fucking hostile (sorry those words have to be used in tandem ). But I think for the most part, you have to be participating in the pissing to get pissed on! Also, and this is important - If your (not you B
most of the times i come here i think to myself "we wouldnt keep coming back if we didnt love this shit!"
Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
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hedonist
standing on the edge of forever Posts: 24,524
OK...I just watched this while quite lit. Whoa! Have never seen this here.
Here, the cartoon-y Saturday mornings of my childhood were of Underdog (ha! I just wrote Undergod), Mighty Mouse, Cecil & Beany, and my favorite wabbit, who was the smartest of them all.
PJ-Soul, I think you've got a good heart. I think most here do.
For the record, I am not Islamophobic at all (and I don't think one could honestly reach that conclusion if they read everything I've said on the subject).
you are def outspokenly critical of many aspects of Islam...I try to keep my opinions on religion to myself, but I will say that I agree with some of your criticisms of islam in a broad sense, even if not the peripherals. Still, I find myself defending muslims all the time, which feels weird as an atheist-leaning agnostic...I pretty much never defend christianity or judaism or any other religion....But I defend islam because I think Islamophobia is right up there with apathy and ignorance as the reasons we allow our politicians and their puppet masters to wage wars. But I don't think you're islamophobic, and I'd hoped my 'at worst' was enough qualification.
You're right, I am very outspoken about certain aspects of Islam, which is largely driven by the position that Muslim women are in because of certain Islamic beliefs/practices. Of course, I'm also very outspoken about all other religions and/or cultural practices, especially if they impact equality for women or homosexuals or any other group. Theocracies also offend me, and unfortunately Islam dictates that government and religion go hand in hand. And i am also very critical of all fundamentalism and extremism... it just so happens that it's Islamic extremism is the kind that is most impacting the world right now and is most discussed here on these boards. For my opinions on the subject I am wholeheartedly unapologetic. However, I am actually generally in agreement with you and Byrnzie and fuck when it comes to ISIS and Gaza. Just because I speak out against those parts of Islam that I oppose it doesn't mean I am against Muslims any more than I am against Christians or Jews. I am universally against fundamentalism and religious extremism.
You mite be confusing "culture" with "religion". Please read this and tell me how women in "Islam" are supposed to be treated shitty.
The strange thing about James Foley's execution is that I'm not particularly shocked by it. It seems to me that when you place yourself in harm's way there must be some expectation that you could be injured or worse. I'm actually more interested in what media outlets do to compensate the families that they are knowingly placing in harm's way in order to turn a profit. I honestly don't know what (if any) measures the media takes to support the families of abducted journalists but I've always felt that on the surface that field reporters are being used.
It seems ironic to me that James Foley's death is benefiting the very news affiliates that he once worked for by providing a story that has grabbed public attention. Again, I don't know much about the way these organizations operate so does anybody know in what ways they have reached out to Foley's family to provide support?
I know I wouldn't move to a land that I felt it's policies are effecting my homeland ,,, but that's just me. Personally I think they immigrate to the west for a better life, to get away from all the violence, their bat shit crazy leaders, etc ... and not all the violence has the stamp of the west on it. Yet the terrorist and radicals insist on destroying the lives of the innocent westerners who have 0 influence into their countries policies. Personally I think the west should just get completely get out of the middle east and that includes giving any country in the middle east 1 $$$ of aid ... and guaranteed even if the west got completely out, we'd still be blamed for something and the violence would still exist.
You were fortunate enough to be born in the west. Congrats
I agree I was ... my forefathers who came to this country contributed immensely to this land, Life was not always easy in Canada. Many Canadian forefathers worked long hours providing for their family, many still work long hours in the diamond mines of the north or in the Alberta oil fields ... many leave their communities and travel thousand of kilometres for this type of work because their is very little work in their communities ... Newfoundlanders are great examples of people who travel great distances for a better life and thats within their own country.
So my question is with all the oil wealth in the middle east how come the middle hasn't been able to build thriving countries?
Really asking that question about oil with a straight face? I can't nor won't even answer that question for you. Do some research on the west and oil in the Mid East. It'll help you out for when you post about it.
Why ... our resources here in Canada has contributed to a better life for many ... I know many environmentalist don't like it ... but a great many Canadians have moved to Alberta and are working in the oil fields ... and the royalties that the governments get from oil contributes to social programs. Are you saying none of this exist in the middle eastern oil fields, the governments get no royalties, get none of the oil wealth ... or does the governments or princes or dictators or whatever ruler is in place and keeps all the monies for themselves and offers a pittance to the population? If this is the case, are you saying that western leaders are instructing middle eastern leaders to hoard the oil wealth for themselves? Screw the people ...
ok, on topic.... I meant to address this a while ago... I don't mean to sound patronizing, but you should check out Confessions of an Economic Hitman if you want to read a simple, short, book about the way our systems work. I've recommended it many times (lent it out a few times before it got double - lent and never saw it again)....It's beyond eye opening - we all know how corruption in capitalism works, but vaguely...that book spells it all out in plain english. To answer your question...basically, no....middle eastern leaders are not told to hoard oil wealth. But....a middle eastern leader who is 'for the people', will generally not be allowed to rule, period. So...shit floats. The most corrupt people end up in power, with our blessing. You acknowledge that we have no control over our own governments....so why put the onus on middle easterners to have control over theirs?....the next question would be - why would you assume that the 'leaders' of the worlds richest nations would stop at our borders when exerting their influence, esp considering globalization has grown exponentially over the past few decades? Western imperialist money influences virtually EVERY government the world over, and those that won't play are targeted for 'regime change'.
For the record, I am not Islamophobic at all (and I don't think one could honestly reach that conclusion if they read everything I've said on the subject).
you are def outspokenly critical of many aspects of Islam...I try to keep my opinions on religion to myself, but I will say that I agree with some of your criticisms of islam in a broad sense, even if not the peripherals. Still, I find myself defending muslims all the time, which feels weird as an atheist-leaning agnostic...I pretty much never defend christianity or judaism or any other religion....But I defend islam because I think Islamophobia is right up there with apathy and ignorance as the reasons we allow our politicians and their puppet masters to wage wars. But I don't think you're islamophobic, and I'd hoped my 'at worst' was enough qualification.
You're right, I am very outspoken about certain aspects of Islam, which is largely driven by the position that Muslim women are in because of certain Islamic beliefs/practices. Of course, I'm also very outspoken about all other religions and/or cultural practices, especially if they impact equality for women or homosexuals or any other group. Theocracies also offend me, and unfortunately Islam dictates that government and religion go hand in hand. And i am also very critical of all fundamentalism and extremism... it just so happens that it's Islamic extremism is the kind that is most impacting the world right now and is most discussed here on these boards. For my opinions on the subject I am wholeheartedly unapologetic. However, I am actually generally in agreement with you and Byrnzie and fuck when it comes to ISIS and Gaza. Just because I speak out against those parts of Islam that I oppose it doesn't mean I am against Muslims any more than I am against Christians or Jews. I am universally against fundamentalism and religious extremism.
See, I agree with a lot of what you say again. But then, who isn't against extremism?.. Blanket statements like 'Islam dictates that government and religion go hand in hand' are what make me take issue. Who's interpretation of Islam? That's not a statement you can qualify in retrospect by saying 'of course I acknowledge that not all muslims believe that'....or is it? Please don't try to support that with a stat, k? ) (kidding). And again....blaming Islam for the extremism within it's ranks is unfair as well...that's the point I tried to engage you on earlier.
For the record, I am not Islamophobic at all (and I don't think one could honestly reach that conclusion if they read everything I've said on the subject).
you are def outspokenly critical of many aspects of Islam...I try to keep my opinions on religion to myself, but I will say that I agree with some of your criticisms of islam in a broad sense, even if not the peripherals. Still, I find myself defending muslims all the time, which feels weird as an atheist-leaning agnostic...I pretty much never defend christianity or judaism or any other religion....But I defend islam because I think Islamophobia is right up there with apathy and ignorance as the reasons we allow our politicians and their puppet masters to wage wars. But I don't think you're islamophobic, and I'd hoped my 'at worst' was enough qualification.
You're right, I am very outspoken about certain aspects of Islam, which is largely driven by the position that Muslim women are in because of certain Islamic beliefs/practices. Of course, I'm also very outspoken about all other religions and/or cultural practices, especially if they impact equality for women or homosexuals or any other group. Theocracies also offend me, and unfortunately Islam dictates that government and religion go hand in hand. And i am also very critical of all fundamentalism and extremism... it just so happens that it's Islamic extremism is the kind that is most impacting the world right now and is most discussed here on these boards. For my opinions on the subject I am wholeheartedly unapologetic. However, I am actually generally in agreement with you and Byrnzie and fuck when it comes to ISIS and Gaza. Just because I speak out against those parts of Islam that I oppose it doesn't mean I am against Muslims any more than I am against Christians or Jews. I am universally against fundamentalism and religious extremism.
You mite be confusing "culture" with "religion". Please read this and tell me how women in "Islam" are supposed to be treated shitty.
No, I'm not confusing culture with religion. They are intertwined. Thank you, but I am already aware of the good things Islam says about women. That doesn't negate the things that are wrong.
I mean, great. Mother's are supposedly esteemed. I have read all the passages that people use to claim that Islam is not horrible for women. But I've also read all the passages that say the exact opposite. Just like other religious texts, the Koran is very contradictory. That doesn't help all the women who aren't allowed to work once they're married, are obligated to obey their husbands, the way sons are valued over daughters, the way they are all expected to marry and breed, the way they have to be segregated in mosques, aren't supposed to eat with men, have very defined roles in public license and private, the perverse focus on modesty for women... when you see any kind of protests or gatherings in the Islamic world there are almost no women anywhere at all - all men. Such things are not considered womanly concerns. And of course it gets worse, with the extremes of killing or maiming girl who try to go to school, are promised to men when they're children, can't show their faces in public, etc. Sharia law. Horrifying. Female genital mutilation. Fuck.
But yes, I've seen the attempts to make it seem like women are more equal than they really are. I see it as a smoke screen. This does not mean I think all Muslims treat women badly, nor am I saying that all Muslims support any kind of inequality between men as women. Certainly not. I have been in a relationship with a Muslim man myself and i loved him. Not once did he make me feel anything other than equal (although his parents did a poor job of hiding different feelings... they weren't so hot on the idea of their only son being with a non-Muslim white chick). I am talking in general terms.
This is pretty off topic though.... surely there is a separate thread about this specific subject?
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
OK...I just watched this while quite lit. Whoa! Have never seen this here.
Here, the cartoon-y Saturday mornings of my childhood were of Underdog (ha! I just wrote Undergod), Mighty Mouse, Cecil & Beany, and my favorite wabbit, who was the smartest of them all
Those shows were still on in my day, but only in reruns, when I was very young :P ) Reminds me of conjunction junction and I'm just a bill...I don't think 'don't drown your food' was schoolhouse rock, but same thing...played during the extended commercial break between cartoons. I know the log driver's waltz is allll canadian Sorry I'll stop derailing.
For the record, I am not Islamophobic at all (and I don't think one could honestly reach that conclusion if they read everything I've said on the subject).
you are def outspokenly critical of many aspects of Islam...I try to keep my opinions on religion to myself, but I will say that I agree with some of your criticisms of islam in a broad sense, even if not the peripherals. Still, I find myself defending muslims all the time, which feels weird as an atheist-leaning agnostic...I pretty much never defend christianity or judaism or any other religion....But I defend islam because I think Islamophobia is right up there with apathy and ignorance as the reasons we allow our politicians and their puppet masters to wage wars. But I don't think you're islamophobic, and I'd hoped my 'at worst' was enough qualification.
You're right, I am very outspoken about certain aspects of Islam, which is largely driven by the position that Muslim women are in because of certain Islamic beliefs/practices. Of course, I'm also very outspoken about all other religions and/or cultural practices, especially if they impact equality for women or homosexuals or any other group. Theocracies also offend me, and unfortunately Islam dictates that government and religion go hand in hand. And i am also very critical of all fundamentalism and extremism... it just so happens that it's Islamic extremism is the kind that is most impacting the world right now and is most discussed here on these boards. For my opinions on the subject I am wholeheartedly unapologetic. However, I am actually generally in agreement with you and Byrnzie and fuck when it comes to ISIS and Gaza. Just because I speak out against those parts of Islam that I oppose it doesn't mean I am against Muslims any more than I am against Christians or Jews. I am universally against fundamentalism and religious extremism.
You mite be confusing "culture" with "religion". Please read this and tell me how women in "Islam" are supposed to be treated shitty.
No, I'm not confusing culture with religion. They are intertwined. Thank you, but I am already aware of the good things Islam says about women. That doesn't negate the things that are wrong.
I mean, great. Mother's are supposedly esteemed. I have read all the passages that people use to claim that Islam is not horrible for women. But I've also read all the passages that say the exact opposite. Just like other religious texts, the Koran is very contradictory. That doesn't help all the women who aren't allowed to work once they're married, are obligated to obey their husbands, the way sons are valued over daughters, the way they are all expected to marry and breed, the way they have to be segregated in mosques, aren't supposed to eat with men, have very defined roles in public license and private, the perverse focus on modesty for women... when you see any kind of protests or gatherings in the Islamic world there are almost no women anywhere at all - all men. Such things are not considered womanly concerns. And of course it gets worse, with the extremes of killing or maiming girl who try to go to school, are promised to men when they're children, can't show their faces in public, etc. Sharia law. Horrifying. Female genital mutilation. Fuck.
But yes, I've seen the attempts to make it seem like women are more equal than they really are. I see it as a smoke screen. This does not mean I think all Muslims treat women badly, nor am I saying that all Muslims support any kind of inequality between men as women. Certainly not. I have been in a relationship with a Muslim man myself and i loved him. Not once did he make me feel anything other than equal (although his parents did a poor job of hiding different feelings... they weren't so hot on the idea of their only son being with a non-Muslim white chick). I am talking in general terms.
This is pretty off topic though.... surely there is a separate thread about this specific subject?
I think if you truly want to know about how women are supposed to be treated in Islam, go talk to an imam.
I will add that the reason women and men pray separately isn't because men are above women. It's because when you pray, you have to sort of bend over, and women aren't supposed to be looked at as sexual objects. So if a woman is standing in front of the man and she bends over, get the drift? Anyways, I'm not the best person to represent Islam, talk to someone with more knowledge.
Comments
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
(I actually was gonna say something similar on the god thread but refrained)
blueandwhite, for what it's worth, I hope you do contribute / participate more. Levelheadedness and being well-spoken are always welcome here.
I've been following this and other related threads, and do appreciate the information shared from pretty much all participants. But yeah, could do without sniping taking over the issues themselves.
carry on.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
To blueandwhite - the difference between the two 'jump the shark' posts was that badbrains' could be considered at worst downplaying extremism in his religion. Pj soul's, at worst, sounded islamophobic....that gets people fired up around here. Don't believe me, ask godfather
To the rest of your post....I sincerely wish more people would join in these conversations....
This thread is proof that the regs here will take their 'rivals', and even their friends, to task for their treatment of others. If someone is blatantly being a dick, they will get called on it.
The people who post here regularly, get themselves in shit by letting emotion control their prose....so someone inexperienced at online debate, or not extremely well read on a topic, would be wise not to jump into the pissing matches with emotion based comments, because it does take a thick skin once it gets fucking hostile (sorry those words have to be used in tandem
Also, and this is important - If your (not you B&W, in general) only knowledge of a topic is from the evening news, recognize that before forming a strong opinion and trying to get on a soapbox. People who have informed opinions about ANY topic, from EITHER side, are easily agitated by people who jump in and start repeating cable news talking points in a cocky or aggressive way. If you come in humbly and give your 2c, even if you're out to lunch, I think it's pretty rare to get belittled.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Thank you for clarifying.
And Drowned - well said, per usual (though I laughed at "even if you're out to lunch")
I don't know if this is a Canadian short, or if it was played in other countries...but this was drilled into my head during saturday morning cartoons as a kid, and I think of it often on AMT....(def don't always take the lesson from it tho)
(may have even posted it here before, I know i've wanted to)
Here, the cartoon-y Saturday mornings of my childhood were of Underdog (ha! I just wrote Undergod), Mighty Mouse, Cecil & Beany, and my favorite wabbit, who was the smartest of them all.
PJ-Soul, I think you've got a good heart. I think most here do.
http://insideislam.wisc.edu/2012/05/the-importance-of-the-mother-in-islam/
It seems ironic to me that James Foley's death is benefiting the very news affiliates that he once worked for by providing a story that has grabbed public attention. Again, I don't know much about the way these organizations operate so does anybody know in what ways they have reached out to Foley's family to provide support?
I meant to address this a while ago...
I don't mean to sound patronizing, but you should check out Confessions of an Economic Hitman if you want to read a simple, short, book about the way our systems work. I've recommended it many times (lent it out a few times before it got double - lent and never saw it again)....It's beyond eye opening - we all know how corruption in capitalism works, but vaguely...that book spells it all out in plain english.
To answer your question...basically, no....middle eastern leaders are not told to hoard oil wealth. But....a middle eastern leader who is 'for the people', will generally not be allowed to rule, period. So...shit floats. The most corrupt people end up in power, with our blessing. You acknowledge that we have no control over our own governments....so why put the onus on middle easterners to have control over theirs?....the next question would be - why would you assume that the 'leaders' of the worlds richest nations would stop at our borders when exerting their influence, esp considering globalization has grown exponentially over the past few decades?
Western imperialist money influences virtually EVERY government the world over, and those that won't play are targeted for 'regime change'.
Blanket statements like 'Islam dictates that government and religion go hand in hand' are what make me take issue. Who's interpretation of Islam? That's not a statement you can qualify in retrospect by saying 'of course I acknowledge that not all muslims believe that'....or is it? Please don't try to support that with a stat, k?
And again....blaming Islam for the extremism within it's ranks is unfair as well...that's the point I tried to engage you on earlier.
Thank you, but I am already aware of the good things Islam says about women. That doesn't negate the things that are wrong.
I mean, great. Mother's are supposedly esteemed. I have read all the passages that people use to claim that Islam is not horrible for women. But I've also read all the passages that say the exact opposite. Just like other religious texts, the Koran is very contradictory. That doesn't help all the women who aren't allowed to work once they're married, are obligated to obey their husbands, the way sons are valued over daughters, the way they are all expected to marry and breed, the way they have to be segregated in mosques, aren't supposed to eat with men, have very defined roles in public license and private, the perverse focus on modesty for women... when you see any kind of protests or gatherings in the Islamic world there are almost no women anywhere at all - all men. Such things are not considered womanly concerns. And of course it gets worse, with the extremes of killing or maiming girl who try to go to school, are promised to men when they're children, can't show their faces in public, etc. Sharia law. Horrifying. Female genital mutilation. Fuck.
But yes, I've seen the attempts to make it seem like women are more equal than they really are. I see it as a smoke screen. This does not mean I think all Muslims treat women badly, nor am I saying that all Muslims support any kind of inequality between men as women. Certainly not. I have been in a relationship with a Muslim man myself and i loved him. Not once did he make me feel anything other than equal (although his parents did a poor job of hiding different feelings... they weren't so hot on the idea of their only son being with a non-Muslim white chick). I am talking in general terms.
This is pretty off topic though.... surely there is a separate thread about this specific subject?
I know the log driver's waltz is allll canadian
Sorry I'll stop derailing.
I will add that the reason women and men pray separately isn't because men are above women. It's because when you pray, you have to sort of bend over, and women aren't supposed to be looked at as sexual objects. So if a woman is standing in front of the man and she bends over, get the drift? Anyways, I'm not the best person to represent Islam, talk to someone with more knowledge.