Imagine That -- I’m Still Anti-War

Peace to everyone here i gotta go home and hug my family .....with tears in my eyes

JimmyV said:

I would agree that anger towards Israelis is completely understandable. If you want to carry that forward to Jews worldwide, based on public displays and blind support of Israel's actions such as we have seen, that too I can understand. But racism? That is a bridge too far for me. Racism is not understandable at this or any other time.

Racism against Muslims after 9/11 was not understandable. It was deplorable and shameful, and it remains so today. Let us keep a little bit of perspective.

With all that said I will repeat what I said a few days ago: I wish charges of antisemitism and hasbara both could be left out of the conversation. I don't believe I have seen a clear example of either anywhere in these threads.

Hi JimmyV,

I have some major issues with your post here. First and foremost is the inability to distinguish between "acceptable" and "understandable". But that point has been made by others, so I will not focus on that. My second major contention is your comparison of anti-semitism due to Israel's actions, with racism against Muslims following 9/11. The reason for this is that you are acting as though we live in a vacuum where all things are constant, all sides are equal, and there exists no power dynamic. This is not just you, so I apologize for focusing on my response on here to you, because many people here are committing this mistake.

You and others on here, from what I've skimmed, have mistakenly emphasized the "both sides" argument. I personally view this equivocation as minimizing the suffering of the Palestinians who live under a brutal Israeli occupation, and it actually is part of the "blame the victim" mentality that has plagued third party viewers of conflicts for far too long now.

Of course, despite how I feel about this, I understand where you're coming from with that mentality, but I do find it unacceptable. And I understand the worry about anti-semitism, because it is always a concern when people spout off intolerant views, which I concede some (few) pro-Palestinian voices hold. But from the way I read history, it is clear that intolerance that comes from a place of power (in which it can actually carry out ethnic cleansing, genocide, institute apartheid and so on) and intolerance that comes from a place of consistent victimization (which is what Palestinians, as the occupied, ethnically cleansed people are) are two very different things. Jews who lived under the Nazi Holocaust, African Americans who lived through slavery and Jim Crow, Blacks in South Africa and Irish Catholics all probably had some nasty things to say about their oppressors. As despicable as those views may be, because yes, they are equally racist and intolerant, they cannot be put on the same moral playing field as the racism of the US, South African, and British governments against those disenfranchised populations. This is similar to the racism Muslims faced following 9/11.

Now, what has been done here is that posters here have actually given credence to the accusation of anti-semitism, by addressing it over and over again and detracting from the main topic. It truly stuns me that when Eddie goes on a very angry anti-war rant where he specifically cites 1) crossing into land that doesn't belong to you and taking it, 2) our tax dollars being used to fund this, and 3) bombs being dropped on children, at a time when Israel's war on Gaza is the number 1 news story, and Israel is the biggest recipient of US foreign aid (over $3billion a year), and pictures of murdered Palestinian children are on display worldwide, in a territory occupied by Israel (land taken that does not belong to them), well, it truly stuns me that such an angry rant is not seen as being directly about this. I guess it's just coincidence that Eddie happened to feel angry that night while the number 1 news story was about Israel's war on Gaza.

This was a backtrack on Eddie's part by refusing to talk about Palestine. Given the backlash people get for calling Israel out for its crimes, it's "understandable" he'd do that

But unacceptable. I hope he finally comes out in support of Palestinian rights soon enough. It was the same when people were waiting for celebrities to publicly support Black South African rights in the 80s. The time for this will come soon.

fuck said:

JimmyV said:

I would agree that anger towards Israelis is completely understandable. If you want to carry that forward to Jews worldwide, based on public displays and blind support of Israel's actions such as we have seen, that too I can understand. But racism? That is a bridge too far for me. Racism is not understandable at this or any other time.

Racism against Muslims after 9/11 was not understandable. It was deplorable and shameful, and it remains so today. Let us keep a little bit of perspective.

With all that said I will repeat what I said a few days ago: I wish charges of antisemitism and hasbara both could be left out of the conversation. I don't believe I have seen a clear example of either anywhere in these threads.

Hi JimmyV,

I have some major issues with your post here. First and foremost is the inability to distinguish between "acceptable" and "understandable". But that point has been made by others, so I will not focus on that. My second major contention is your comparison of anti-semitism due to Israel's actions, with racism against Muslims following 9/11. The reason for this is that you are acting as though we live in a vacuum where all things are constant, all sides are equal, and there exists no power dynamic. This is not just you, so I apologize for focusing on my response on here to you, because many people here are committing this mistake.

You and others on here, from what I've skimmed, have mistakenly emphasized the "both sides" argument. I personally view this equivocation as minimizing the suffering of the Palestinians who live under a brutal Israeli occupation, and it actually is part of the "blame the victim" mentality that has plagued third party viewers of conflicts for far too long now.

Of course, despite how I feel about this, I understand where you're coming from with that mentality, but I do find it unacceptable. And I understand the worry about anti-semitism, because it is always a concern when people spout off intolerant views, which I concede some (few) pro-Palestinian voices hold. But from the way I read history, it is clear that intolerance that comes from a place of power (in which it can actually carry out ethnic cleansing, genocide, institute apartheid and so on) and intolerance that comes from a place of consistent victimization (which is what Palestinians, as the occupied, ethnically cleansed people are) are two very different things. Jews who lived under the Nazi Holocaust, African Americans who lived through slavery and Jim Crow, Blacks in South Africa and Irish Catholics all probably had some nasty things to say about their oppressors. As despicable as those views may be, because yes, they are equally racist and intolerant, they cannot be put on the same moral playing field as the racism of the US, South African, and British governments against those disenfranchised populations. This is similar to the racism Muslims faced following 9/11.

Now, what has been done here is that posters here have actually given credence to the accusation of anti-semitism, by addressing it over and over again and detracting from the main topic. It truly stuns me that when Eddie goes on a very angry anti-war rant where he specifically cites 1) crossing into land that doesn't belong to you and taking it, 2) our tax dollars being used to fund this, and 3) bombs being dropped on children, at a time when Israel's war on Gaza is the number 1 news story, and Israel is the biggest recipient of US foreign aid (over $3billion a year), and pictures of murdered Palestinian children are on display worldwide, in a territory occupied by Israel (land taken that does not belong to them), well, it truly stuns me that such an angry rant is not seen as being directly about this. I guess it's just coincidence that Eddie happened to feel angry that night while the number 1 news story was about Israel's war on Gaza.

This was a backtrack on Eddie's part by refusing to talk about Palestine. Given the backlash people get for calling Israel out for its crimes, it's "understandable" he'd do that

But unacceptable. I hope he finally comes out in support of Palestinian rights soon enough. It was the same when people were waiting for celebrities to publicly support Black South African rights in the 80s. The time for this will come soon.

If racism is understandable in this particular case then racism is understandable in every case throughout history. Racists always believe they have legitimate reasons to feel the way they do. Jew, Muslim, Black, Asian...it doesn't matter what group is being hated, someone somewhere believes they are correct and just to do so. Understand, this isn't splitting hairs between understandable and acceptable. This is about rejecting racism in all manners, in all shapes and sizes, and in all practices. I thought we as a society had moved past this, and I have on a few occasions in these threads rejected claims of racist or anti-Semitic activity. In my opinion, it is a step backward to state that racism in this case or any other is understandable.

I stand by the 9/11 comparison. Every situation is different and of course not every situation is equal. That was never my point. However, the events of that day and the images from New York and Washington unleashed an ugliness in this and other countries that had festered for some time. The events in Gaza and the disgusting reactions from Israeli supporters around the world are having a similar effect. We can argue back and forth about the history and the power structure all you want. To my eye the trigger and the response are not entirely different.

If you read through my posts, when I speak of "sides" I am mostly referring to the sides of the argument represented here on this board, not on the ground in Israel and Gaza. Neither "side" here has represented itself entirely well, in my opinion. There have been insults and attacks fired both ways. It has been an oftentimes ugly exchange and there have been "sides" to it.

As for what Eddie said, only he knows for sure what he meant that night at Milton Keynes. But to insist that he was speaking specifically and exclusively about Israel ignores the prior history of his political rants. This is a guy who has never minced his words and never had a problem being specific in his rants. Not about Bush, not about the NRA, not about Iraq, etc. To accuse him of backtracking because he did not single out Israel in his follow-up is unfair to him. He said his piece, and then he said it again. I know the issue is deeply personal to you, and I can understand why you would want him to weigh in more deeply than he did. Israel was certainly a factor that night, but it was not the only one.

For those of you who just joined us, this thread is NOT about racism nor meant to be a place to post pictures of bloody dead people. It's about peace, love, working together, reaching out to each other.

Giving you all a big virtual hug because we're a big virtual extended family and every now and then I just gotta do that Peace and Love thang. MMMMMWWAHHH!

Byrnzie said:

BS44325 said:

So when you label Israelis as racist, as you just did above, that is ok because it is based on "fact". No one should be angered or outraged because you have a handy link to some website of truth.

People are free to make up their own minds based on the facts. Either the fact of 86% of Israeli's supporting the current massacre, or the fact of Israeli's in the streets cheering the murder of Palestinian children.

BS44325 said:

When I out you as a racist based on your own words; "Racism against Jews is perfectly understandable at this point in time. Only a fool would believe otherwise." well that is the ultimate insult and cannot stand!

Looks like your English comprehension skills aren't up to scratch? Do you know the meaning of the word 'understandable'?

http://youtu.be/R7WAoczRV_k


Understandable

Byrnzie said:

BS44325 said:

So when you label Israelis as racist, as you just did above, that is ok because it is based on "fact". No one should be angered or outraged because you have a handy link to some website of truth.

People are free to make up their own minds based on the facts. Either the fact of 86% of Israeli's supporting the current massacre, or the fact of Israeli's in the streets cheering the murder of Palestinian children.

BS44325 said:

When I out you as a racist based on your own words; "Racism against Jews is perfectly understandable at this point in time. Only a fool would believe otherwise." well that is the ultimate insult and cannot stand!

Looks like your English comprehension skills aren't up to scratch? Do you know the meaning of the word 'understandable'?

http://youtu.be/57Q8K5TmivM

Understandable