Imagine That -- I’m Still Anti-War

Byrnzie

dignin said:

Toxic anger? At what point will we all get angry about what's going on?

Ed was obviously angry.

Please, can we all stop making this about one person here?

Thanks. And you have a point. Ed wasn't exactly Mother Theresa on stage in Milton Keynes was he? What amazes me is that more people aren't filled with rage at what's going on right now.

But supposedly I'm some sort of emotionally unstable, angry....Jew hating...anti-Semite...destroyer of threads.

Byrnzie

...Actually, just put me in a ring with Alan Dershowitz for five minutes and I promise to get it all out of my system.

JimmyV

I don't think the AMT thread should have been locked and I do hope it is reopened.

Everyone arguing that we shouldn't make this about one person is correct.

Everyone arguing that we shouldn't make this about one particular conflict is also correct.

eldarion75

Israel and Israel-Firsters’ PR methods:
1. We haven't heard reports of deaths, will check into it
2. The people were killed, but by a faulty Palestinian rocket/bomb
3. Ok we killed them, but they were terrorists
4. Ok they were civilians, but they were being used as human shields
5. Ok there were no fighters in the area, so it was our mistake. But we kill civilians by accident, they do it on purpose
6. Ok we kill far more civilians than they do, but look at how terrible other countries are!
7. Why are you still talking about Israel ? Are you some kind of anti-semite?
Repeat from step 1 (Test this against the next interview you hear or watch.)"

Byrnzie

rr165892 said:

Ultimately if Hamas were willing to come out and acknowledge Israel's right to exist and be willing to demilitarize And Israel was willing to remove restrictions on Gaza and going back to 67 lines.With some land up for shared residency and negotiations wouldn't this cover the fundamental essence of what both sides really see as core points to work toward peace?

Or how about we simply impose international law on the Israeli's instead, as the whole World agrees - excluding the U.S which stands alone in the World in being opposed to Israel having to conform to international law?
Israel withdraw to it's legal borders, and end the illegal blockade of Gaza. As for anybody recognizing anyone else's right to exist, this is just nonsense, and so can easily be dismissed. The Palestinians have already stated that they recognize Israel's right to exist within it's legal borders - the PLO did that about 30 years ago. As for anybody recognizing Israel as a Jewish state, no country has the right to ask any other country to condone racial supremacy. And will the Israeli's be forced to recognize Palestine's right to exist?

This is what occurs every year - and which the mainstream media ignore. It's worth reading:

The United Nations General Assembly annually votes on a resolution titled, “Peaceful Settlement of the Question of Palestine.” This resolution uniformly includes these tenets for “achieving a peaceful settlement of the question of Palestine”: (1) “Affirming the principle of the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war”; (2) “Affirming also the illegality of the Israeli settlements in the territory occupied since 1967 and of Israeli actions aimed at changing the status of Jerusalem”; (3) “Stresses the need for: (a) The realization of the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people, primarily the right to self-determination; (b) The withdrawal of Israel from the Palestinian territory occupied since 1967”; (4) “Also stresses the need for resolving the problem of the Palestine refugees in conformity with its resolution 194 (III) of 11 December 1948.”

Last year:

https://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2013/ga11460.doc.htm

Peaceful settlement of the question of Palestine - A/RES/68/15

Vote: 165 Yes, 6 against (Canada, Federated States of Micronesia, Israel, Marshall Islands, Palau, United States) with 6 abstentions (Australia, Cameroon, Papua New Guinea, Paraguay, South Sudan, Tonga)

The whole World on one side, and Israel and the U.S on the other. And those South Pacific atolls are predicted to be submerged under the sea as a result of global warming in the near future.

JimmyV

We on this board all share the love of the same wonderful band. When it gets heated, if we all remember that, maybe we can come at least a little closer together.

I should add, I am in no way giving myself a pass. I have had my share of arguments and angry moments here too.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

Byrnzie said:

...Actually, just put me in a ring with Alan Dershowitz for five minutes and I promise to get it all out of my system.

Cant solve violence with violence, Byrnzie.

Threadlocker )

Byrnzie

Hospitals, schools, geriatric centers, playgrounds, no place is safe.

eldarion75

is this actually making anyone else sick? like im having trouble sleeping...feeling guilty for enjoyin a walk with my dog...its so hard that we can go about our day to day while this is happenning..its totally f*cked up

Byrnzie

eldarion75 said:

Israel and Israel-Firsters’ PR methods:
1. We haven't heard reports of deaths, will check into it
2. The people were killed, but by a faulty Palestinian rocket/bomb
3. Ok we killed them, but they were terrorists
4. Ok they were civilians, but they were being used as human shields
5. Ok there were no fighters in the area, so it was our mistake. But we kill civilians by accident, they do it on purpose
6. Ok we kill far more civilians than they do, but look at how terrible other countries are!
7. Why are you still talking about Israel ? Are you some kind of anti-semite?
Repeat from step 1 (Test this against the next interview you hear or watch.)"

I came upon this on Twitter:


-The most current debunking of Israel talking points/myths on Gaza, well written by @OmarBaddar: Who started it? Why now? The truth about the kidnapped Israeli teens, and more: http://www.salon.com/2014/07/28/debunking_the_myths_about_gaza_the_truth_behind_israeli_and_palestinian_talking_points/

-11 fact-filled, evidence-based rebuttals to Israeli talking points/myths about Gaza, Hamas and warcrimes by @mehdirhassan: http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/mehdi-hasan/gaza-israel_b_5624401.html

-"Self defense," "human shields," and other Israel talking points/myths--smart takedown by @4noura: http://www.thenation.com/article/180783/five-israeli-talking-points-gaza-debunked

-No, Israel Does Not Have The Right To Self-Defense Against Occupied Palestine, According To International Law, by @4noura: http://www.jadaliyya.com/pages/index/8799/no-israel-does-not-have-the-right-to-self-defense-

-@OmarBaddar on the hypocrisy and chutzpah of Israel ignoring its own proven use of human shields as it accuses Hamas of using them without evidence:
http://www.salon.com/2014/07/18/israels_military_has_no_moral_superiority_and_its_time_the_media_covered_gaza_fairly/

-9 facts American media isn't telling you about Israel/Palestine: http://mondoweiss.net/2014/07/american-telling-israelpalestine.html

-Crucial context mainstream media isn't providing on Gaza & Israel - video by @ajplus: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHtJSyWK0zw

-Context and perspective on Palestinian rockets and the conversation no one is having, by @paminprogress: http://mondoweiss.net/2014/07/palestinian-rockets-conversation.html

-Life in Gaza explained, video by @ajplus: http://youtu.be/9ZRgzChgaGI

-9 graphics to help you understand what life is really like in Gaza, by @missyasin, featuring @visualizingpal: http://mic.com/articles/93207/9-graphics-to-help-you-understand-what-life-is-really-like-in-gaza

-@ajplus explains Israel's illegal settlements in the illegally occupied West Bank, Palestine and how it's derailing a solution for peace: http://youtu.be/1sib5HbdEV4

-@ajplus follows the money: Over $121billion US aid to Israel--is it worth it? http://youtu.be/NLcWaty9osg

-Clear and concise, yet pretty thorough Intro to Israel-Palestine 101, by @jvplive: http://youtu.be/Y58njT2oXfE

-Controversial/illegal, documented Israeli military tactics...or war crimes? By @smpalestine: http://mondoweiss.net/2014/07/controversial-documented-strategies.html

Byrnzie

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Byrnzie said:

...Actually, just put me in a ring with Alan Dershowitz for five minutes and I promise to get it all out of my system.

Cant solve violence with violence, Byrnzie.

Threadlocker )

I'll be nice to him, I promise.

:^o

backseatLover12

Hey Byrnzie, if you think that by posting all these links, photos and videos, you're changing anyone's mind…. you're not. Stop making this thread your personal war.

And let's get back to what it is supposed to be about. Peace. Getting along.

Byrnzie

backseatLover12 said:

Hey Byrnzie, if you think that by posting all these links, photos and videos, you're changing anyone's mind…. you're not. Stop making this thread your personal war.

And let's get back to what it is supposed to be about. Peace. Getting along.

Or how about you quit telling me what I can and can't do?

DreamyDan

:-h from Facebook:
We Refuse to Be Enemies : Vision Camp in Israel/Palestine

"Justice cannot be achieved through bombing. The tears shed by Israeli mothers are the same as those of Palestinian mothers. By gathering those who are against the war we want to make visible the knowledge and vision which is more powerful than globalized violence. This could become a turning point for the peace movement." ~ Sabine Lichtenfels, co-founder of the peace research center Tamera, Portugal & co-initiator of the Vision Camp.

The Middle East is exploding in violence. In the last two weeks the war has killed more than 1000 people, the vast majority of them in Gaza, with more than 100 children amongst them. Due to the extensive bombing of even schools, mosques, hospitals and private homes people can no longer find protection or shelter. Hatred, fear and anger are at a peak in the whole region.

In this turbulence, peace workers from Israel, Palestine and other countries are holding a five-day vision camp in the Westbank. In the middle of the war they hold a peace vigil and create a frequency of calmness in which mutual perception, sharing, deep listening, clear thinking and vision building is possible. They say, "We refuse to be enemies." And, "Together we can give a clear sign to end the war."

For its protection and success the vision camp needs international accompaniment and publicity. The war in Gaza and Israel is not a local conflict but another breakout of the global war system - just like Syria and Ukraine. War is the unavoidable result of a society which follows the hypnosis of fear and separation - on economical, ecological, social and spiritual levels. Let us leave the war system whereever it is possible. Stay online and accompany the vision camp with your thoughts and prayers. We invite people all over the world to join in meditation on Monday morning (sunrise) and Tuesday evening (sunset and the end of Ramadan).

Please take part.

Photos, videos, thoughts and results here:
Blog: http://sabine-lichtenfels.tumblr.com/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/aVisionCampinIsraelPalestine?ref=hl&ref_type=bookmark

The Cause "We refuse to be enemies - together we can stop the war" has more than 18.000 supporters: https://www.causes.com/campaigns/80649-we-refuse-to-be-enemies-together-we-can-end-the-war

eldarion75

Byrnzie, keep posting the articles...it's exactly that sort of negative remark by the other guy telling you what you can/cannot post thats whats wrong with all this....

Byrnzie

eldarion75 said:

Byrnzie, keep posting the articles...it's exactly that sort of negative remark by the other guy telling you what you can/cannot post thats whats wrong with all this....

Yeah, or maybe we should follow his/her advice and just bury our heads in the sand?

(Though as far as I know, talking about peace and love and flower arranging never solved any conflicts in the World. I might be wrong about this, but I'm under the impression that speaking out, protesting, demonstrating, petitioning, e.t.c, is what works to change things. But like I say, I know nothing. How was the Apartheid regime in South Africa brought down? Did people sing John Lennon's 'Imagine' in the direction of that country?).

Yeah, I'm cynical, and angry...and tired.

Night night.

hedonist

JimmyV said:

I don't think the AMT thread should have been locked and I do hope it is reopened.

Everyone arguing that we shouldn't make this about one person is correct.

Everyone arguing that we shouldn't make this about one particular conflict is also correct.

Agreed (and appreciate your posts throughout this).

JimmyV

Imagine That -- I’m Still Anti-War.
July 16 2014

Most of us have heard John Lennon sing

“You may say I’m a dreamer,… but I’m not the only one.”

And some of us, after another morning dose of news coverage full of
death and destruction, feel the need to reach out to others to see if
we are not alone in our outrage. With about a dozen assorted
ongoing conflicts in the news everyday, and with the stories
becoming more horrific, the level of sadness becomes unbearable.
And what becomes of our planet when that sadness becomes apathy?
Because we feel helpless. And we turn our heads and turn the page.

Currently, I’m full of hope. That hope springs from the multitudes of
people that our band has been fortunate enough to play for night
after night here in Europe. To see flags of so many different nations,
and to have these huge crowds gathered peacefully and joyfully is
the exact inspiration behind the words I felt the need to emphatically relay.
When attempting to make a plea for more peace in the world at a rock concert,
we are reflecting the feelings of all those we have come in contact with
so we may all have a better understanding of each other.

That’s not something I’m going to stop anytime soon. Call me naïve.
I’d rather be naïve, heartfelt and hopeful than resigned to say
nothing for fear of misinterpretation and retribution.

The majority of humans on this planet are more consumed by the
pursuit of love, health, family, food and shelter than any kind of war.

War hurts. It hurts no matter which sides the bombs are falling on.

With all the global achievements in modern technology,
enhanced communication and information devices, cracking the
human genome, land rovers on Mars etc., do we really have to
resign ourselves to the devastating reality that conflict will be
resolved with bombs, murder and acts of barbarism?

We are such a remarkable species. Capable of creating beauty.
Capable of awe-inspiring advancements. We must be capable of
resolving conflicts without bloodshed.

I don’t know how to reconcile the peaceful rainbow of flags we see
each night at our concerts with the daily news of a dozen global
conflicts and their horrific consequences. I don’t know how to
process the feeling of guilt and complicity when I hear about the
deaths of a civilian family from a U.S. drone strike. But I know that
we can’t let the sadness turn into apathy. And I do know we are
better off when we reach out to each other.

“I hope someday you’ll join us,…”

Won’t you listen to what the man said.

--Eddie Vedder

http://pearljam.com/activism/news/1/22386/imagine_that_--_i’m_still_anti-war

"With about a dozen assorted ongoing conflicts in the news everyday"

That is probably an understatement. The situation in Gaza is an ongoing tragedy and a disgrace, but it remains but one conflict in a series on this planet. If we insist on making what Eddie said pertain only to Gaza we are at best missing and at worst perverting his point. Too many conflicts and too much war. Too many warlords and too many war profiteers. Too many innocents killed, and too much blood money changing hands.

It needs to stop. All of it.

Byrnzie

Imagine? Yeah, I imagine. I Imagine that if ten or twenty, or thirty famous celebrities stood up and spoke out with the same level of anger and passion that Ed did at Milton Keynes, that It would reverberate across the Globe.

rr165892

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Byrnzie said:

...Actually, just put me in a ring with Alan Dershowitz for five minutes and I promise to get it all out of my system.

Cant solve violence with violence, Byrnzie.

Threadlocker )

I actually agree with Byrnzie on this Dershowitz is horrible.