but what has he done about it? what have any of us done about it?
so we are all pro peace. what happens now?
it is not like there is any consensus there.
peace is not just something that exists and occurs naturally.
peace is hard, just like a marriage is hard. you have to work at it.
people like me want to go on and live our lives and not be bothered, and not get sucked into things like this, but we do because of other people's actions. other people's greed, other people's hatred. i am sick of it. i started following this conflict back in early 2009. i have read a lot about it and posted a lot about it. it is easy. it is black and white to me who is right and who is wrong. it gets frustrating when you can present people with indisputable facts and dubunk the media talking points with facts, and they look for a reason to not believe it or they dismiss it as you trying to manipulate them and manipulate their emotions.
i am on the train almost every day duking it out and trying to process the thousands of words posted over there. all of us could be doing that, but in the end what does it get us? a few hundred people with slightly better knowledge than the rest of our internet reading counterparts?
You know where it gets us? All wrapped up in our miserable little lives. Imagine that, we're all pros at Debating and fighting with one another on a band's message board. Accomplishing nothing but sitting comfortably at a screen and anonymously letting out judgements and anger out.
people make this israel/palestine conflict out to be so complicated and nuanced. in fact, it is very simple. it is a simple solution. stop building and expanding settlements. once that happens, there will be no reason for any more warring. there will be no more need for hamas firing missiles. the missiles are a symptom and an effect of the 50 year occupation. the rockets are not the cause of the occupation. stop expanding and building settlements. once that happens, the palestinians will have gotten what is theirs under international law, and the israelis would have stopped breaking international law.
the pro war people are winning.
all of us who are pro peace, what are we doing about it????
The pro war people are winning what, a thread war? God, that's funny. Like that's a prize in itself.
Peace isn't easy, getting angry and living miserable lives because we don't know how to make that anger into productive change is easy. No one wants to work for happiness, no one wants to work to actually communicate with each other civilly, no one really wants solutions because that means work. No one wants to open their hearts (except Eddie), no one wants to put aside their ridiculous egos and pride, because what is life being exposed for what we are? Edit: Living within the confines of our own walls we have built for ourselves, because actually showing the world love is more risky than hiding behind our own walls made of fear, pride and misunderstanding. I work with the elderly and children, and you know what? Neither of these groups have self-imposed walls. Both groups love freely, communicate freely, and judge a whole less that supposedly smart adults.
People who are vulnerable, people who feel, people who empathize and have compassion. People who have not been as lucky as the rest of us. People who give a part of themselves for the greater good. People who care about getting along. They are the ones exercising peace. They are the ones that do it every single day. They live the example.
Remember I told you that I got a second chance at living life? Not everyone does. Make the right choice now and actually care about your neighbor, the people who aren't as fortunate as you, the elderly, etc. because you have no idea how lucky you are until you face real problems that involve you, not just people in another country.
to me Ed's comments without naming names and then sorta of backtracking is worse then "tweet and delete". Ed has been outspoken as long as i can remember, from womens rights to corporate greed to illegal wars of choice and etc.....why not now? I remember the storytellers where someone asks "what about people that dont agree with your/the bands ideology" his response "fu(k'em" anyone with half a brain and some common sense can see what is and has been going on with Israel for the past 20 years, so why not call a spade a spade? where did the courage go? maybe he is afraid for his own children because he knows eactly who he is talking about/dealing with!
To suggest that he fears for his "own children" because of what Israel or the jews might do to them is pretty ridiculous.
Maybe he's politically torn on this issue. Maybe he doesn't think it's black and white. Maybe he wants to see an end to the Israel military action and an end to Hamas rockets and kidnappings.
But what do I know...I clearly have less then half a brain and no common sense.
This is like a good hockey game.Beat the shit out of each other,bloody our faces,throw some blows,each of us gets a shot in here or there,but when all is done a hand shake,ass smack maybe a little hug and a lot of respect.
I don't agree with you on everything rr.....but I like the cut of your jib.
Dude,do you know how many carbs I have to forgo,and how much gym time I must spend per week to keep my Jib that cut? It truly is a job in itself. Lol
Remember I told you that I got a second chance at living life? Not everyone does. Make the right choice now and actually care about your neighbor, the people who aren't as fortunate as you, the elderly, etc. because you have no idea how lucky you are until you face real problems that involve you, not just people in another country.
First, apologies for calling you backstreet earlier! Just wanted to say I appreciate the perspective in what I quoted. And I do appreciate gimme's stance as well. I'd say the majority of us are trying to educate ourselves, maybe others, and exchange information in at least some sort of decent manner.
And to rr, I had to at that Charlie's Angels reference. I call dibs on Kelly!
People like Byrnzie don't even read anything pertaining to peace. We're just all ready to react.
I'm done.
No, of course I don't, which is why for the past 20 or so years I've been calling for Israel to be made to comply with international law, and for the peaceful settlement that's accepted by the whole World and vetoed by the U.S, to be implemented.
I didn't say that. Your quotes are off. Please delete/correct. Is this reflective of all your other links, quotes, etc.?
Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
But how do you know your facts are facts and not propaganda? How can anybody be sure that what they read on the almighty internet is real? I am all for facts. What I do not like is feeling belittled or mocked when I am still out there to form my opinion or to learn about facts. If you want to pull somebody over to your side because you think you have the facts, then do not treat them like they just talked shit. Be the wise man and bring your message out like it. Who will listen to you if you shoo everybody away?
I support this message.
Exactly. Whose news is facts and whose is propaganda.
To some it all is completely dependent on their world view. And they will beat you down to prove it.
Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
Remember I told you that I got a second chance at living life? Not everyone does. Make the right choice now and actually care about your neighbor, the people who aren't as fortunate as you, the elderly, etc. because you have no idea how lucky you are until you face real problems that involve you, not just people in another country.
First, apologies for calling you backstreet earlier! Just wanted to say I appreciate the perspective in what I quoted. And I do appreciate gimme's stance as well. I'd say the majority of us are trying to educate ourselves, maybe others, and exchange information in at least some sort of decent manner.
And to rr, I had to at that Charlie's Angels reference. I call dibs on Kelly!
Hedonist,Its noted !! You may now enjoy ass kickin super chic powers from here on out.You should warn your hubby,before someone gets hurt.:)
For people who are confused on where Pearl Jam stands with respect to Israel let's look at the record of the only politician they ever truly endorsed: Senator Jon Tester of Montana.
Rated -1 by AAI, indicating a mixed Arab/Palestine voting record.
Tester scores -1 by AAI on Arab-Israeli issues The Arab American Institute has compiled a Scorecard to catalogue the voting record of the 112th Congress on issues of importance to the Arab American community. Though not comprehensive, we have attempted to provide a snapshot of legislation concerning many of the primary issues concerning Arab Americans. For the Senate, we have included 10 items: two bills on the Arab Spring, three on Palestine, one on Lebanon, one regarding civil liberties, and two for immigration reform. S. Res. 44: (+) calls on former President Hosni Mubarak to immediately begin a peaceful transition to a democratic political system S. Res. 109: (+) honoring and supporting women in North Africa and the Middle East S. Res. 138: (-) calling on the United Nations to rescind the Goldstone report, formally known as the UN Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict, which accused the Israeli government of targeting Palestinian civilians. S. Res. 185: (-) reaffirming the commitment of the US to a negotiated settlement of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and calling for a US veto of any UN resolution on Palestinian statehood without a settlement. S. Con. Res. 23: (-) supporting Israel in maintaining defensible borders, and against Israel returning to the armistice lines that existed on June 4, 1967 S. 558: (+) the Cluster Munitions Civilian Protection Act, to limit the use of cluster munitions in areas normally inhabited by civilians. S. 1125: (+) greater judicial review of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA), and greater protections to individuals being monitored or gag-ordered by the FBI. S.1038, the PATRIOT Sunsets Extension Act, in opposition of PATRIOT Act extension. S. 723: (-) The Birthright Citizenship Act, limiting citizenship for millions of undocumented immigrants born in the US. S. 952: (+) the DREAM Act, allowing undocumented minors to become US citizens, provided they meet certain conditions, including good moral character Source: AAI website 12-AAI-S on May 2, 2012
Vigorous support for State of Israel against Hamas in Gaza.
Tester co-sponsored Resolution for Israeli Self-Defense RESOLUTION expressing vigorous support and unwavering commitment to the welfare, security, and survival of the State of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state with secure borders: Whereas Hamas was founded with the stated goal of destroying the State of Israel; Whereas Hamas refuses to recognize Israel's right to exist, renounce violence, and accept previous agreements between Israel and the Palestinians; Whereas terrorists in the Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip have fired approximately 900 rockets and missile shells into Israel this year, an increase from roughly 675 attacks in 2011 and 350 in 2010; Whereas Israel, a fellow democracy, has an inherent right to self defense in the face of terrorist attacks: Now, therefore, be it Resolved, That the Congress: expresses unwavering commitment to the security of the State of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state with secure borders, and recognizes and strongly supports its inherent right to act in self-defense to protect its citizens against acts of terrorism; reiterates that Hamas must end Gaza-linked terrorist rocket and missile attacks against Israel, recognize Israel's right to exist, renounce violence, and agree to accept previous agreements between Israel and the Palestinians; urges the UN Security Council to condemn the recent spike in Gaza-linked terrorist missile attacks against Israel, which risk causing civilian casualties in both Israel and Gaza; and encourages the President to continue to work diplomatically with the international community to prevent Hamas and other Gaza-based terrorist organizations from retaining or rebuilding the capability to launch rockets and missiles against Israel. Source: SR599/HR813 12-SRes599 on Nov 16, 2012
Does this mean that the band is pro-Israel? Absolutely not. It sure doesn't mean however that they are anti-israel as some people on here would have you believe.
I don't think that the band's feeling about Israel and Tester's feelings about Israel have anything to do with one another at all. Just because the band did a fundraiser for him because he's a family friend to Jeff doesn't mean that the band agrees with everything Tester does and says for the rest of their lives.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Re> gimme's question, "What are we doing for peace." Good question and than you for asking it. Gimme, first of let me say you know I hold you in high regard. Your posts are always honest, forthright and well thought out. And you're an awesome guitar player!
My guess is there is very little any of us here can do to directly move the Palestinian/Israeli [war, issue, genocide- whatever you choose to call it] toward peace. What we can do is first and foremost learn to respect each other here but not calling others names like "racist" or "liar", by not telling others that their ideas are "bullshit" and by trying to be civil with each other. If we can't do that, we have no right talking about peace at all and since that is a central issue of this thread we should maybe take the uncivil approach elsewhere (if at all). I'm not denying that we should be angry or passionate. We can be angry and passionate and even opinionated and still be civil. That is where this thread keeps breaking down. The irony is large.
Thank you also Backsetlover for yet again reminding us that peace is a central issue of this thread.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
I don't think that the band's feeling about Israel and Tester's feelings about Israel have anything to do with one another at all. Just because the band did a fundraiser for him because he's a family friend to Jeff doesn't mean that the band agrees with everything Tester does and says for the rest of their lives.
Agreed. My point is that the band is clearly not nor likely will ever be on the side of the BDS movement which some people are advocating for. The people who keep claiming that Eddie "backtracked" form some sort of Anti-Israel position need to recognize that they have encouraged fans to support and/or vote for pro-Israel politicians.
Re> gimme's question, "What are we doing for peace." Good question and than you for asking it. Gimme, first of let me say you know I hold you in high regard. Your posts are always honest, forthright and well thought out. And you're an awesome guitar player!
My guess is there is very little any of us here can do to directly move the Palestinian/Israeli [war, issue, genocide- whatever you choose to call it] toward peace. What we can do is first and foremost learn to respect each other here but not calling others names like "racist" or "liar", by not telling others that their ideas are "bullshit" and by trying to be civil with each other. If we can't do that, we have no right talking about peace at all and since that is a central issue of this thread we should maybe take the uncivil approach elsewhere (if at all). I'm not denying that we should be angry or passionate. We can be angry and passionate and even opinionated and still be civil. That is where this thread keeps breaking down. The irony is large.
Thank you also Backsetlover for yet again reminding us that peace is a central issue of this thread.
I'm not advocating insults, but what if someone is being racist, lying and full of shit. How do you respond to that?
I'm not advocating insults, but what if someone is being racist, lying and full of shit. How do you respond to that?
Maybe by not also taking the low road? Ignoring? Taking it to pm's? Calling out said (perceived?) racism and shitfullness in a way that fosters or at least attempts a meeting of the minds instead of increasing the divide?
We're not children; we've dealt with disagreements here and in our regular walks of life, no?
I don't know...how some can't discuss without regressing is beyond me.
Re> gimme's question, "What are we doing for peace." Good question and than you for asking it. Gimme, first of let me say you know I hold you in high regard. Your posts are always honest, forthright and well thought out. And you're an awesome guitar player!
My guess is there is very little any of us here can do to directly move the Palestinian/Israeli [war, issue, genocide- whatever you choose to call it] toward peace. What we can do is first and foremost learn to respect each other here but not calling others names like "racist" or "liar", by not telling others that their ideas are "bullshit" and by trying to be civil with each other. If we can't do that, we have no right talking about peace at all and since that is a central issue of this thread we should maybe take the uncivil approach elsewhere (if at all). I'm not denying that we should be angry or passionate. We can be angry and passionate and even opinionated and still be civil. That is where this thread keeps breaking down. The irony is large.
Thank you also Backsetlover for yet again reminding us that peace is a central issue of this thread.
I'm not advocating insults, but what if someone is being racist, lying and full of shit. How do you respond to that?
Also, the so-called 'peace-seekers' in this thread keep pretending that there's nothing we can do about the Israel-Palestine conflict. This is bullshit. It's just apathy, pure and simple. backseatLover12 likes to pretend that those of us calling for something to be done about it are leading 'miserable lives' and are "accomplishing nothing but sitting comfortably at a screen and anonymously letting out judgements and anger out." She pretends that "we don't know how to make that anger into productive change", while telling us that we need to do nothing except 'show the World love' and 'open our hearts'. Yeah, sure. Is that what brought an end to Apartheid South Africa? Is that what brought an end to the French occupation of Algeria?
backseatLover12 pretends that apathy is the solution and that there's nothing we can do. Pay no attention. This wishy-washy flower-power babble is irrelevant. If she's American then her tax dollars are currently paying for the bombs that are being dropped on Palestinian babies. You want to do something about it? Then first and foremost you can educate yourself on this issue. It's not difficult. There's enough info in some of these threads for starters, if you're willing to read it. Pick up some books. Scour the net.
Educate yourselves. Then you can do a number of things:
Write to your politicians. Your tax dollars are paying for this slaughter after all. Sign petitions. Boycott Israeli goods. I've already posted the BDS list here. Join demonstrations. Confront Israel's army of paid internet liars and bulshitters. e.t.c, e.t.c.
but what has he done about it? what have any of us done about it?
so we are all pro peace. what happens now?
it is not like there is any consensus there.
peace is not just something that exists and occurs naturally.
peace is hard, just like a marriage is hard. you have to work at it.
people like me want to go on and live our lives and not be bothered, and not get sucked into things like this, but we do because of other people's actions. other people's greed, other people's hatred. i am sick of it. i started following this conflict back in early 2009. i have read a lot about it and posted a lot about it. it is easy. it is black and white to me who is right and who is wrong. it gets frustrating when you can present people with indisputable facts and dubunk the media talking points with facts, and they look for a reason to not believe it or they dismiss it as you trying to manipulate them and manipulate their emotions.
i am on the train almost every day duking it out and trying to process the thousands of words posted over there. all of us could be doing that, but in the end what does it get us? a few hundred people with slightly better knowledge than the rest of our internet reading counterparts?
You know where it gets us? All wrapped up in our miserable little lives. Imagine that, we're all pros at Debating and fighting with one another on a band's message board. Accomplishing nothing but sitting comfortably at a screen and anonymously letting out judgements and anger out.
people make this israel/palestine conflict out to be so complicated and nuanced. in fact, it is very simple. it is a simple solution. stop building and expanding settlements. once that happens, there will be no reason for any more warring. there will be no more need for hamas firing missiles. the missiles are a symptom and an effect of the 50 year occupation. the rockets are not the cause of the occupation. stop expanding and building settlements. once that happens, the palestinians will have gotten what is theirs under international law, and the israelis would have stopped breaking international law.
the pro war people are winning.
all of us who are pro peace, what are we doing about it????
The pro war people are winning what, a thread war? God, that's funny. Like that's a prize in itself.
Peace isn't easy, getting angry and living miserable lives because we don't know how to make that anger into productive change is easy. No one wants to work for happiness, no one wants to work to actually communicate with each other civilly, no one really wants solutions because that means work. No one wants to open their hearts (except Eddie), no one wants to put aside their ridiculous egos and pride, because what is life being exposed for what we are? Edit: Living within the confines of our own walls we have built for ourselves, because actually showing the world love is more risky than hiding behind our own walls made of fear, pride and misunderstanding. I work with the elderly and children, and you know what? Neither of these groups have self-imposed walls. Both groups love freely, communicate freely, and judge a whole less that supposedly smart adults.
People who are vulnerable, people who feel, people who empathize and have compassion. People who have not been as lucky as the rest of us. People who give a part of themselves for the greater good. People who care about getting along. They are the ones exercising peace. They are the ones that do it every single day. They live the example.
Remember I told you that I got a second chance at living life? Not everyone does. Make the right choice now and actually care about your neighbor, the people who aren't as fortunate as you, the elderly, etc. because you have no idea how lucky you are until you face real problems that involve you, not just people in another country.
.
Post edited by gimmesometruth27 on
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
Re> gimme's question, "What are we doing for peace." Good question and than you for asking it. Gimme, first of let me say you know I hold you in high regard. Your posts are always honest, forthright and well thought out. And you're an awesome guitar player!
My guess is there is very little any of us here can do to directly move the Palestinian/Israeli [war, issue, genocide- whatever you choose to call it] toward peace. What we can do is first and foremost learn to respect each other here but not calling others names like "racist" or "liar", by not telling others that their ideas are "bullshit" and by trying to be civil with each other. If we can't do that, we have no right talking about peace at all and since that is a central issue of this thread we should maybe take the uncivil approach elsewhere (if at all). I'm not denying that we should be angry or passionate. We can be angry and passionate and even opinionated and still be civil. That is where this thread keeps breaking down. The irony is large.
Thank you also Backsetlover for yet again reminding us that peace is a central issue of this thread.
I'm not advocating insults, but what if someone is being racist, lying and full of shit. How do you respond to that?
you call them out on it. but be more gentle about it. point out where they are wrong and try to teach them.
people like me who have been actively following this for over 5 years have done a lot of reading and a lot of research, so we know a lot about the basics of the situation. personally, i get frustrated when people chime in with fox news blogs passing it off as fact, and the poster can't even get the basics right. they do not know the history of the conflict, the geography of the area, and the politics of all of the countries in the area. some of them do not even know that illegal settlements are being constructed on stolen land. i mean, this is just conflict 101 here....it gets frustrating when people come in and say how complicated things are, when it is actually really simple. i know i have started at square 1 trying to explain things to people no less than 20 times. i go through all of the work searching for stuff and posting it and they don't read it. i don't know how byrnzie does it because he has done it a hundred times. people say byrnzie seems angry. but i know better. i know his frustration.
people either don't know what they are talking about and inadvertently spread the wrong information, or there is a calculated movement. the calculated movement is called hasbara, and it is much worse than ignorance.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
You cannot expect everybody who chimes in here to know about your personal history with this the conflict. This thread is on the Porch. Not many people who frequent it are regular visitors of AMT. You who think they are in the know and maybe are want to enlighten and educate others who have not reached your point of knowledge yet. To me, as a "newb" in this whole thing, as someone who is interested in educating themselves, the tone in here is offputting. Yes, it is a topic where opinions are strong and where emotions rage high. But like I said before, the sound makes the music. At least to me. If somebody just belittles everything I say as somebody who has not been informing themselves for a couple of years, I do not feel like following the convo any longer. And then this whole thread is becoming a joke, because people who come in here to read, do not do it for the informational value, but just for checking out how the roosters are fighting.
Post edited by Leezestarr313 on
Please, Pearl Jam, consider a Benaroya Hall vinyl reissue!
The worst kind of conflict is the one you are in the middle of. The war in Gaza is worse than anything we can imagine but the war between people you consider as friends on both sides is the kind that hurts on a personal level. Not at all because I'm apathetic but, I wish I could block this thread permanently from my computer.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
You cannot expect everybody who chimes in here to know about your personal history with this the conflict. This thread is on the Porch. Not many people who frequent it are regular visitors of AMT. You who think they are in the know and maybe are want to enlighten and educate others who have not reached your point of knowledge yet. To me, as a "newb" in this whole thing, as someone who is interested in educating themselves, the tone in here is offputting. Yes, it is a topic where opinions are strong and where emotions rage high. But like I said before, the sound makes the music. At least to me. If somebody just belittles everything I say as somebody who has not been informing themselves for a couple of years, I do not feel like following the convo any longer. And then this whole thread is becoming a joke, because people who come in here to read, do not do it for the informational value, but just for checking out how the roosters are fighting.
I have no problem with somebody admitting that they don't really understand the conflict. But I do have a problem with people who don't understand anything about it posting the Fox News narrative - something they heard said on the t.v - as a fact, or with people calling for apathy, and criticizing those people who are trying to do something to change the situation.
To suggest that he fears for his "own children" because of what Israel or the jews might do to them is pretty ridiculous.
Maybe he's politically torn on this issue. Maybe he doesn't think it's black and white. Maybe he wants to see an end to the Israel military action and an end to Hamas rockets and kidnappings.
But what do I know...I clearly have less then half a brain and no common sense.
Or maybe he doesn't want to be labelled an anti-Semite. Maybe he doesn't want to get sucked into it. Once you take a firm stand on this issue and publicly oppose Israel's race war against the Palestinians, then there's no going back. Everything you say and everything you do will be scrutinized by Israel's army of internet warriors. Maybe he just doesn't need the hassle?
You cannot expect everybody who chimes in here to know about your personal history with this the conflict. This thread is on the Porch. Not many people who frequent it are regular visitors of AMT. You who think they are in the know and maybe are want to enlighten and educate others who have not reached your point of knowledge yet. To me, as a "newb" in this whole thing, as someone who is interested in educating themselves, the tone in here is offputting. Yes, it is a topic where opinions are strong and where emotions rage high. But like I said before, the sound makes the music. At least to me. If somebody just belittles everything I say as somebody who has not been informing themselves for a couple of years, I do not feel like following the convo any longer. And then this whole thread is becoming a joke, because people who come in here to read, do not do it for the informational value, but just for checking out how the roosters are fighting.
The roosters don't know how to move back to AMT and leave this one to peace.
The worst kind of conflict is the one you are in the middle of. The war in Gaza is worse than anything we can imagine but the war between people you consider as friends on both sides is the kind that hurts on a personal level. Not at all because I'm apathetic but, I wish I could block this thread permanently from my computer.
Or have the mods just lock it, because some people insist on derailing it constantly?
A simple yet impassioned and dangerous message to deliver: Fuck everyone (weapons industry, governments, etc.) who deals in the business of mass death and destruction, and I hope that you all rot in fucking hell!!!
It is not simply a plea for an ideal. Pro-peace is safe and easy. Shit, the CEO of Lockheed Martin is probably pro-peace.
Anti-war is wearing your heart on your sleeve, no matter the consequences (arrest, imprisonment, surveillance, abuse at the hands of the authorities, unemployment, ostricization, alienation, etc.).
And for those who ridicule the flower child silencing the gun as a dumb, spaced-out hippie. Think about what she's doing. Think about what was going on at that point in time in history. Think about the animosity that existed between our soldiers (drafted and otherwise) and those they were sworn to protect. Think about the animosity that existed between her generation and the State in general, sometimes ending in brutality and death (see Kent State, read brianlux's personal experiences, etc.). Her action was probably braver than anything that just about any one of us has done in our entire lives.
Imagine seeing an anti-war Israeli do the same to an IDF soldier's firearm. Or even a Palestinian civilian doing so to a Hamas rocket launcher. That would be laudable courage, right?
Comments
Peace isn't easy, getting angry and living miserable lives because we don't know how to make that anger into productive change is easy. No one wants to work for happiness, no one wants to work to actually communicate with each other civilly, no one really wants solutions because that means work. No one wants to open their hearts (except Eddie), no one wants to put aside their ridiculous egos and pride, because what is life being exposed for what we are? Edit: Living within the confines of our own walls we have built for ourselves, because actually showing the world love is more risky than hiding behind our own walls made of fear, pride and misunderstanding. I work with the elderly and children, and you know what? Neither of these groups have self-imposed walls. Both groups love freely, communicate freely, and judge a whole less that supposedly smart adults.
People who are vulnerable, people who feel, people who empathize and have compassion. People who have not been as lucky as the rest of us. People who give a part of themselves for the greater good. People who care about getting along. They are the ones exercising peace. They are the ones that do it every single day. They live the example.
Remember I told you that I got a second chance at living life? Not everyone does. Make the right choice now and actually care about your neighbor, the people who aren't as fortunate as you, the elderly, etc. because you have no idea how lucky you are until you face real problems that involve you, not just people in another country.
To suggest that he fears for his "own children" because of what Israel or the jews might do to them is pretty ridiculous.
Maybe he's politically torn on this issue. Maybe he doesn't think it's black and white. Maybe he wants to see an end to the Israel military action and an end to Hamas rockets and kidnappings.
But what do I know...I clearly have less then half a brain and no common sense.
And to rr, I had to
To some it all is completely dependent on their world view. And they will beat you down to prove it.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/12/jon-tester-pearl-jam-bassist-concert-montana_n_1590957.html
From: http://www.ontheissues.org/international/Jon_Tester_Foreign_Policy.htm
Rated -1 by AAI, indicating a mixed Arab/Palestine voting record.
Tester scores -1 by AAI on Arab-Israeli issues
The Arab American Institute has compiled a Scorecard to catalogue the voting record of the 112th Congress on issues of importance to the Arab American community. Though not comprehensive, we have attempted to provide a snapshot of legislation concerning many of the primary issues concerning Arab Americans. For the Senate, we have included 10 items: two bills on the Arab Spring, three on Palestine, one on Lebanon, one regarding civil liberties, and two for immigration reform.
S. Res. 44: (+) calls on former President Hosni Mubarak to immediately begin a peaceful transition to a democratic political system
S. Res. 109: (+) honoring and supporting women in North Africa and the Middle East
S. Res. 138: (-) calling on the United Nations to rescind the Goldstone report, formally known as the UN Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict, which accused the Israeli government of targeting Palestinian civilians.
S. Res. 185: (-) reaffirming the commitment of the US to a negotiated settlement of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and calling for a US veto of any UN resolution on Palestinian statehood without a settlement.
S. Con. Res. 23: (-) supporting Israel in maintaining defensible borders, and against Israel returning to the armistice lines that existed on June 4, 1967
S. 558: (+) the Cluster Munitions Civilian Protection Act, to limit the use of cluster munitions in areas normally inhabited by civilians.
S. 1125: (+) greater judicial review of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA), and greater protections to individuals being monitored or gag-ordered by the FBI.
S.1038, the PATRIOT Sunsets Extension Act, in opposition of PATRIOT Act extension.
S. 723: (-) The Birthright Citizenship Act, limiting citizenship for millions of undocumented immigrants born in the US.
S. 952: (+) the DREAM Act, allowing undocumented minors to become US citizens, provided they meet certain conditions, including good moral character
Source: AAI website 12-AAI-S on May 2, 2012
Vigorous support for State of Israel against Hamas in Gaza.
Tester co-sponsored Resolution for Israeli Self-Defense
RESOLUTION expressing vigorous support and unwavering commitment to the welfare, security, and survival of the State of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state with secure borders:
Whereas Hamas was founded with the stated goal of destroying the State of Israel;
Whereas Hamas refuses to recognize Israel's right to exist, renounce violence, and accept previous agreements between Israel and the Palestinians;
Whereas terrorists in the Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip have fired approximately 900 rockets and missile shells into Israel this year, an increase from roughly 675 attacks in 2011 and 350 in 2010;
Whereas Israel, a fellow democracy, has an inherent right to self defense in the face of terrorist attacks:
Now, therefore, be it Resolved, That the Congress:
expresses unwavering commitment to the security of the State of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state with secure borders, and recognizes and strongly supports its inherent right to act in self-defense to protect its citizens against acts of terrorism;
reiterates that Hamas must end Gaza-linked terrorist rocket and missile attacks against Israel, recognize Israel's right to exist, renounce violence, and agree to accept previous agreements between Israel and the Palestinians;
urges the UN Security Council to condemn the recent spike in Gaza-linked terrorist missile attacks against Israel, which risk causing civilian casualties in both Israel and Gaza; and
encourages the President to continue to work diplomatically with the international community to prevent Hamas and other Gaza-based terrorist organizations from retaining or rebuilding the capability to launch rockets and missiles against Israel.
Source: SR599/HR813 12-SRes599 on Nov 16, 2012
Does this mean that the band is pro-Israel? Absolutely not. It sure doesn't mean however that they are anti-israel as some people on here would have you believe.
For peace in our time. Let love win
My guess is there is very little any of us here can do to directly move the Palestinian/Israeli [war, issue, genocide- whatever you choose to call it] toward peace. What we can do is first and foremost learn to respect each other here but not calling others names like "racist" or "liar", by not telling others that their ideas are "bullshit" and by trying to be civil with each other. If we can't do that, we have no right talking about peace at all and since that is a central issue of this thread we should maybe take the uncivil approach elsewhere (if at all). I'm not denying that we should be angry or passionate. We can be angry and passionate and even opinionated and still be civil. That is where this thread keeps breaking down. The irony is large.
Thank you also Backsetlover for yet again reminding us that peace is a central issue of this thread.
We're not children; we've dealt with disagreements here and in our regular walks of life, no?
I don't know...how some can't discuss without regressing is beyond me.
Yeah, sure. Is that what brought an end to Apartheid South Africa? Is that what brought an end to the French occupation of Algeria?
backseatLover12 pretends that apathy is the solution and that there's nothing we can do. Pay no attention. This wishy-washy flower-power babble is irrelevant. If she's American then her tax dollars are currently paying for the bombs that are being dropped on Palestinian babies.
You want to do something about it? Then first and foremost you can educate yourself on this issue. It's not difficult. There's enough info in some of these threads for starters, if you're willing to read it. Pick up some books. Scour the net.
Educate yourselves. Then you can do a number of things:
Write to your politicians. Your tax dollars are paying for this slaughter after all.
Sign petitions.
Boycott Israeli goods. I've already posted the BDS list here.
Join demonstrations.
Confront Israel's army of paid internet liars and bulshitters.
e.t.c, e.t.c.
Peace isn't easy, getting angry and living miserable lives because we don't know how to make that anger into productive change is easy. No one wants to work for happiness, no one wants to work to actually communicate with each other civilly, no one really wants solutions because that means work. No one wants to open their hearts (except Eddie), no one wants to put aside their ridiculous egos and pride, because what is life being exposed for what we are? Edit: Living within the confines of our own walls we have built for ourselves, because actually showing the world love is more risky than hiding behind our own walls made of fear, pride and misunderstanding. I work with the elderly and children, and you know what? Neither of these groups have self-imposed walls. Both groups love freely, communicate freely, and judge a whole less that supposedly smart adults.
People who are vulnerable, people who feel, people who empathize and have compassion. People who have not been as lucky as the rest of us. People who give a part of themselves for the greater good. People who care about getting along. They are the ones exercising peace. They are the ones that do it every single day. They live the example.
Remember I told you that I got a second chance at living life? Not everyone does. Make the right choice now and actually care about your neighbor, the people who aren't as fortunate as you, the elderly, etc. because you have no idea how lucky you are until you face real problems that involve you, not just people in another country.
.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
people like me who have been actively following this for over 5 years have done a lot of reading and a lot of research, so we know a lot about the basics of the situation. personally, i get frustrated when people chime in with fox news blogs passing it off as fact, and the poster can't even get the basics right. they do not know the history of the conflict, the geography of the area, and the politics of all of the countries in the area. some of them do not even know that illegal settlements are being constructed on stolen land. i mean, this is just conflict 101 here....it gets frustrating when people come in and say how complicated things are, when it is actually really simple. i know i have started at square 1 trying to explain things to people no less than 20 times. i go through all of the work searching for stuff and posting it and they don't read it. i don't know how byrnzie does it because he has done it a hundred times. people say byrnzie seems angry. but i know better. i know his frustration.
people either don't know what they are talking about and inadvertently spread the wrong information, or there is a calculated movement. the calculated movement is called hasbara, and it is much worse than ignorance.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
Not at all because I'm apathetic but, I wish I could block this thread permanently from my computer.
Maybe he doesn't want to get sucked into it. Once you take a firm stand on this issue and publicly oppose Israel's race war against the Palestinians, then there's no going back. Everything you say and everything you do will be scrutinized by Israel's army of internet warriors. Maybe he just doesn't need the hassle?
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
LMFAO
NOW THAT'S ANTI-WAR!
See the distinction?
It's a protestation -- angry, aggressive.
A simple yet impassioned and dangerous message to deliver: Fuck everyone (weapons industry, governments, etc.) who deals in the business of mass death and destruction, and I hope that you all rot in fucking hell!!!
It is not simply a plea for an ideal. Pro-peace is safe and easy. Shit, the CEO of Lockheed Martin is probably pro-peace.
Anti-war is wearing your heart on your sleeve, no matter the consequences (arrest, imprisonment, surveillance, abuse at the hands of the authorities, unemployment, ostricization, alienation, etc.).
And for those who ridicule the flower child silencing the gun as a dumb, spaced-out hippie. Think about what she's doing. Think about what was going on at that point in time in history. Think about the animosity that existed between our soldiers (drafted and otherwise) and those they were sworn to protect. Think about the animosity that existed between her generation and the State in general, sometimes ending in brutality and death (see Kent State, read brianlux's personal experiences, etc.). Her action was probably braver than anything that just about any one of us has done in our entire lives.
Imagine seeing an anti-war Israeli do the same to an IDF soldier's firearm. Or even a Palestinian civilian doing so to a Hamas rocket launcher. That would be laudable courage, right?
It's about as anti-war as you can get.