Imagine That -- I’m Still Anti-War
Comments
-
Seriously though Mr. Miyagi, it's all very well of you to try and enlighten me and everything, but if you think that my anger with regards to the Israel-Palestine conflict is the sum of all my parts, then I'm afraid I'm gonna have to inform you that your services are no longer required, and that I will be hiring another Guru instead.brianlux said:No doubt most everybody agrees with that sentiment too, Byrnzie. But what Ed said there was a preface to the heart of what he was trying to get across in his message to us- that despite the sadness and anger we can, do or probably ought to feel, we can still be against war, for peace, for love, for working together. That is the core message and it almost breaks my heart that you don't seem to want to hear that. Almost... until I see how much your anger feels like hatred. Anger is a powerful tool, B. You can use it do do great things, or you can let it merely increase the bitterness that throws shadows on the fields of hope. Please choose wisely.
If you think that I spend all my of time just focused on this issue, then you're sorely mistaken. You cannot define me with reference to my anger at Israel. I have plenty more eggs in my basket than just this one.
Post edited by Byrnzie on0 -
Confirmed. A month ago Byrnzie and I went to town on each other over in the Falkland Island thread in AMT.Byrnzie said:
Seriously though Mr. Miyagi, it's all very well of you to try and enlighten me and everything, but if you think that my anger with regards to the Israel-Palestine conflict is the sum of all my parts, then I'm afraid I'm gonna have to go looking for another Guru instead.brianlux said:No doubt most everybody agrees with that sentiment too, Byrnzie. But what Ed said there was a preface to the heart of what he was trying to get across in his message to us- that despite the sadness and anger we can, do or probably ought to feel, we can still be against war, for peace, for love, for working together. That is the core message and it almost breaks my heart that you don't seem to want to hear that. Almost... until I see how much your anger feels like hatred. Anger is a powerful tool, B. You can use it do do great things, or you can let it merely increase the bitterness that throws shadows on the fields of hope. Please choose wisely.
If you think that I spend all my of time just focused on this issue, then you're sorely mistaken. You cannot define me with reference to my anger at Israel. I have plenty more eggs in my basket than just this one.0 -
They then quickly correct their 'mistake':
Post edited by Byrnzie on0 -
Hey, let's not make this about ANYONE other than us. Us here together working for peace. We can take the anger elsewhere- there are plenty of angry thread on AMT. But really, if we read the OP message the central them is peace, love, working together. To deny that just doesn't make sense.
Most of all, let's not make this a personal battle. I apologize naked in front of you all for doing that a few times here. My bad. Let's move on.
"It's a sad and beautiful world"-Roberto Benigni0 -
I like you too, Leeze. :-)Leezestarr313 said:
I like you, brianlux.brianlux said:
No doubt most everybody agrees with that sentiment too, Byrnzie. But what Ed said there was a preface to the heart of what he was trying to get across in his message to us- that despite the sadness and anger we can, do or probably ought to feel, we can still be against war, for peace, for love, for working together. That is the core message and it almost breaks my heart that you don't seem to want to hear that. Almost... until I see how much your anger feels like hatred. Anger is a powerful tool, B. You can use it do do great things, or you can let it merely increase the bitterness that throws shadows on the fields of hope. Please choose wisely.Byrnzie said:"I don’t know how to process the feeling of guilt and complicity when I hear about the
deaths of a civilian family from a U.S. drone strike. But I know that we can’t let the sadness turn into apathy." - Ed Vedder
And you know, I've been around here long enough to say I like pretty much everyone here that I've interacted with. Even Byrnzie. I mean really, we're all after the same things- enjoy the music, don't want war, believe in justice, want to have a good time.
Fake Contest
I'm making my case against a stack full of comics
Here comes the line...
I'm loaded with rocket fuel!
Industry Industry
We're tools for the industry
We're clothes in the laundry
Bleached of identity
You lie there naked
I lie here naked
Both on the pavement
Why are we different?
You lie there naked
I lie here naked
Both on the pavement
Why are we different?
Minutemen
OK, sorry for the derailment carry on.
...and PEACE!
"It's a sad and beautiful world"-Roberto Benigni0 -
"You are a man. You must be angry. To hide such a feeling is to increase its force a thousand times." - Grasshopper
0 -
-
That was good,BSBS44325 said:
I'm the only fucking Jedi on here!brianlux said:
Hahaha! Good one, BS44325. Oh, to be like Yoda!BS44325 said:brianlux said:
No doubt most everybody agrees with that sentiment too, Byrnzie. But what Ed said there was a preface to the heart of what he was trying to get across in his message to us- that despite the sadness and anger we can, do or probably ought to feel, we can still be against war, for peace, for love, for working together. That is the core message and it almost breaks my heart that you don't seem to want to hear that. Almost... until I see how much your anger feels like hatred. Anger is a powerful tool, B. You can use it do do great things, or you can let it merely increase the bitterness that throws shadows on the fields of hope. Please choose wisely.Byrnzie said:"I don’t know how to process the feeling of guilt and complicity when I hear about the
deaths of a civilian family from a U.S. drone strike. But I know that we can’t let the sadness turn into apathy." - Ed Vedder
http://youtu.be/kFnFr-DOPf80 -
Hes spot on with the Hamas issue.It has to be part of the equationBS44325 said:Byrnzie said:
Yep, keep trying to make this all about me, tough guy.BS44325 said:Everyone's just waiting for the Palestinians to find their Mandela. Unfortunately you ain't it.
No it doesn't. It doesn't give Israel the right to any of those things. I have said that before. I don't think you even know my politics. All I am doing is outlining the horror show that is Hamas but for some reason any discussion of this causes you to blow your top and yell "DEFLECTION". You realize that the Palestinian Authority, Egypt, Saudia Arabia and others are opposed to Hamas? You realize that the average Gazan wants to be rid of Hamas? You realize that any lasting peace will have to be made with a party other then Hamas? You have such a "with us or against us" mentality that you fail to see the myriad of view points people can hold at the same time. No one is trying to make it "all about you" but when it comes to forging peace it will be the "you's" of the world that will have to find a way to bend.Byrnzie said:
That's right. Except you left out the part where I said "...at this point in time." Very important that part of my sentence. But don't let that get in the way of your slippery personal attacks on me.BS44325 said:You think it is understandable for people to hate jews.
Just as I've said on countless occasions that not all Jews support Israel. I've also said on many occasions that most of the most vocal and well known critics of Israel happen to be Jewish: Chomsky, Finkelstein, Michael Neumann, Gideon Levy, Uri Avery...BS44325 said:I differentiate between Muslims and Hamas.
Again, don't let the truth interfere with the massive hard-on you have for me.
And your hypothetical future gives the Israeli's the right to follow the advice of Moshe Dayan, does it? It gives the Israeli's the right to continue being in massive violation of international law, and to continue committing war crimes against the Palestinians?BS44325 said:Palestine after Israel's disappearance will be no different then today's Iraq with ISIS in charge.
Had to add this...
I remember you writing earlier how happy you were when you heard Eddie's initial speech (this is a thread on his speech after all). Later you added how disappointed you were that Eddie (in your opinion) back-pedalled. I think what you fail to realize (and what might disappoint you more) is that his speech was actually directed at you. Not just you but all the people like you on all sides that are so stuck in a zone of perpetual conflict. It's not wrong to be outraged by violence but once violence ends peace will require so much more.0 -
0
-
Hamas have agreed to a peaceful settlement in line with the international consensus. A peaceful settlement based on the terms of international law.rr165892 said:Hes spot on with the Hamas issue.It has to be part of the equation
But Hamas are the problem?
How about you take a look at 'The Palestine Papers' released by Wikileaks? They show that the P.A offered the Israeli's everything they wanted and more, and yet the Israeli's still refused to accept their offer.
It's perfectly obvious that this has NOTHING to do with Hamas. The Israeli's don't want a peaceful settlement. They want to either maintain the occupation and continue the oppression of the Palestinians, and/or force them out of the remaining 20% of their homeland.
It's known as ethnic cleansing.
0 -
Yes,Byrnzie Hamas is A real big problem in this peace process.Just like Netanyahu is stepping on Israeli dicks in this also.IMO both sides have factions standing the the way of progress.
There are sane,clear headed folks in both Israel's minority party and in The P.A that could have had this nonsense halted by now.This process needs honest brokers on both sides.0 -
0 -
http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/collective-punishment-gazarr165892 said:Hes spot on with the Hamas issue.It has to be part of the equation
Collective Punishment in Gaza
By Rashid Khalidi
July 29, 2014
Three days after the Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu launched the current war in Gaza, he held a press conference in Tel Aviv during which he said, in Hebrew, according to the Times of Israel, “I think the Israeli people understand now what I always say: that there cannot be a situation, under any agreement, in which we relinquish security control of the territory west of the River Jordan.”
It’s worth listening carefully when Netanyahu speaks to the Israeli people. What is going on in Palestine today is not really about Hamas. It is not about rockets. It is not about “human shields” or terrorism or tunnels. It is about Israel’s permanent control over Palestinian land and Palestinian lives. That is what Netanyahu is really saying, and that is what he now admits he has “always” talked about. It is about an unswerving, decades-long Israeli policy of denying Palestine self-determination, freedom, and sovereignty.
What Israel is doing in Gaza now is collective punishment. It is punishment for Gaza’s refusal to be a docile ghetto. It is punishment for the gall of Palestinians in unifying, and of Hamas and other factions in responding to Israel’s siege and its provocations with resistance, armed or otherwise, after Israel repeatedly reacted to unarmed protest with crushing force. Despite years of ceasefires and truces, the siege of Gaza has never been lifted.
As Netanyahu’s own words show, however, Israel will accept nothing short of the acquiescence of Palestinians to their own subordination. It will accept only a Palestinian “state” that is stripped of all the attributes of a real state: control over security, borders, airspace, maritime limits, contiguity, and, therefore, sovereignty. The twenty-three-year charade of the “peace process” has shown that this is all Israel is offering, with the full approval of Washington. Whenever the Palestinians have resisted that pathetic fate (as any nation would), Israel has punished them for their insolence. This is not new.
Punishing Palestinians for existing has a long history. It was Israel’s policy before Hamas and its rudimentary rockets were Israel’s boogeyman of the moment, and before Israel turned Gaza into an open-air prison, punching bag, and weapons laboratory. In 1948, Israel killed thousands of innocents, and terrorized and displaced hundreds of thousands more, in the name of creating a Jewish-majority state in a land that was then sixty-five per cent Arab. In 1967, it displaced hundreds of thousands of Palestinians again, occupying territory that it still largely controls, forty-seven years later.
In 1982, in a quest to expel the Palestine Liberation Organization and extinguish Palestinian nationalism, Israel invaded Lebanon, killing seventeen thousand people, mostly civilians. Since the late nineteen-eighties, when Palestinians under occupation rose up, mostly by throwing stones and staging general strikes, Israel has arrested tens of thousands of Palestinians: over seven hundred and fifty thousand people have spent time in Israeli prisons since 1967, a number that amounts to forty per cent of the adult male population today. They have emerged with accounts of torture, which are substantiated by human-rights groups like B’tselem. During the second intifada, which began in 2000, Israel reinvaded the West Bank (it had never fully left). The occupation and colonization of Palestinian land continued unabated throughout the “peace process” of the nineteen-nineties, and continues to this day. And yet, in America, the discussion ignores this crucial, constantly oppressive context, and is instead too often limited to Israeli “self-defense” and the Palestinians’ supposed responsibility for their own suffering.
In the past seven or more years, Israel has besieged, tormented, and regularly attacked the Gaza Strip. The pretexts change: they elected Hamas; they refused to be docile; they refused to recognize Israel; they fired rockets; they built tunnels to circumvent the siege; and on and on. But each pretext is a red herring, because the truth of ghettos—what happens when you imprison 1.8 million people in a hundred and forty square miles, about a third of the area of New York City, with no control of borders, almost no access to the sea for fishermen (three out of the twenty kilometres allowed by the Oslo accords), no real way in or out, and with drones buzzing overhead night and day—is that, eventually, the ghetto will fight back. It was true in Soweto and Belfast, and it is true in Gaza. We might not like Hamas or some of its methods, but that is not the same as accepting the proposition that Palestinians should supinely accept the denial of their right to exist as a free people in their ancestral homeland.
This is precisely why the United States’ support of current Israeli policy is folly. Peace was achieved in Northern Ireland and in South Africa because the United States and the world realized that they had to put pressure on the stronger party, holding it accountable and ending its impunity. Northern Ireland and South Africa are far from perfect examples, but it is worth remembering that, to achieve a just outcome, it was necessary for the United States to deal with groups like the Irish Republican Army and the African National Congress, which engaged in guerrilla war and even terrorism. That was the only way to embark on a road toward true peace and reconciliation. The case of Palestine is not fundamentally different.
Instead, the United States puts its thumb on the scales in favor of the stronger party. In this surreal, upside-down vision of the world, it almost seems as if it is the Israelis who are occupied by the Palestinians, and not the other way around. In this skewed universe, the inmates of an open-air prison are besieging a nuclear-armed power with one of the most sophisticated militaries in the world.
If we are to move away from this unreality, the U.S. must either reverse its policies or abandon its claim of being an “honest broker.” If the U.S. government wants to fund and arm Israel and parrot its talking points that fly in the face of reason and international law, so be it. But it should not claim the moral high ground and intone solemnly about peace. And it should certainly not insult Palestinians by saying that it cares about them or their children, who are dying in Gaza today.0 -
No political entity involved is without guilt here.Failing to see that will hold back the eventual peace that should come from this.0
-
It's an occupation. Do you understand what that means? It means that one side is the occupier - an illegal occupier - and the other is the occupied. What part of that equation do you find so difficult to grasp?0
![:\](https://community.pearljam.com/plugins/emojiextender/emoji/yahoo/confused.gif ":\")
"> 
) 
This discussion has been closed.
Categories
- All Categories
- 148.9K Pearl Jam's Music and Activism
- 110.1K The Porch
- 275 Vitalogy
- 35.1K Given To Fly (live)
- 3.5K Words and Music...Communication
- 39.2K Flea Market
- 39.2K Lost Dogs
- 58.7K Not Pearl Jam's Music
- 10.6K Musicians and Gearheads
- 29.1K Other Music
- 17.8K Poetry, Prose, Music & Art
- 1.1K The Art Wall
- 56.8K Non-Pearl Jam Discussion
- 22.2K A Moving Train
- 31.7K All Encompassing Trip
- 2.9K Technical Stuff and Help