Religion on the decline around the world

These recent posts here are great. Very thought provoking. Carry on!

Cosmo wrote:

catefrances wrote:

what if there is no answer. what if all this wondering is just your big brain.. well wondering cause its got nothing better to do? we find ourselves in a very privileged position. we really dont have to worry about shelter, we dont have to worry about catching our food. we turn on the tap and water comes out. we waste an inordinate amount of time on pasttimes(and thinking as it turns out) simply because we want for nothing. every day isnt a test of survival for us cause we are the apex. however drop us in a situation where our survival is an issue and im thinking questions of why we are here would fly out the window. humans are a high order thinker and therefore we think... we think perhaps a little too much... and usually about things that arent of paramount importance to our survival.

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That's probably the answer... there is no answer. And I'll accept that. Just as in math, sometimes the answer is NULL. Sometimes, that's just the way it is. Not a problem.
And it's not a task or a burden or an obsession... more of a case of wonder. As I walk, I think about the ground beneath my feet... moving, spinning, hurtling through space. I look up at the night sky and wonder about the light i'm seeing right now and how old that light is... just getting to my eyes this second... even though it left its origin hundreds of years ago. Just crap like that.
I think we all look for answers... and many of us just feel comfortable with the answers that other people give them... answers that have been handed down through the ages. i'm not like that, I guess. I just can't accept things, just because someone said so. I like to find the 'Whys' in this trip. And I suppose I simply, enjoy the journey I'm on.

I get your points, but sticking to the math theme, I'd ask -

What's the absolute origin?

The big bang doesn't solve it for me at all. Personally, I see the "probability" of a (real force, a real catalyst or God) causing the origin as higher than the alternative - even mathematically. If we're really talking probability and math, you can't create 1 from null, and if you argue you can, you can only do so by a body causing the addition of 1.

I look at life and I believe the reason humans believe in God (or a causal force) is all around us. Men and women have sex and create new life. Person(s) - action - life. Child was not there, but was "created". They don't appear out of nowhere, people/actions cause it. We equate that, magnify the creation of all life to a bigger force (God) and multiply it - beginning of life.

I think the thought of "we don't know", is a silly argument because: of course we don't know. Everyone knows that we don't know. That doesn't mean one can't make bets based on probability as they see it.

I think a more interesting question is really - why do some think the rewards of betting exist? For that, I'm not sure I have an answer - besides religious teaching.

I just love the mystery of it all. No pat answers, no formulas, no dogma. Just the intertwining of people, the awesome beauty, and the holy terror of life and the great mystery of all things unseen.

hedonist wrote:

I still have two pages of this thread to read, so apologies if I'm jumping the gun, and fuckitall but I feel weary in the soul this morning.

So I'll say that despite my own "I don't know and likely never will" philosophy, faith got my mother in law through three decades of being fucked through and through by cancer.

Faith helped my father overcome some fucked up hate by those who wanted his kind dead because of...well, choose your poison there.

I may not believe as they did, but fuck me if I'll put them down for what helped them through blackness and even just maybe contributed to their decency and being the best parents they could, with what they had - not in the material sense, either. And while I get that "morals" aren't derived from religion itself, the tenets aren't necessarily closeminded and smothering as some may suggest.

Sometimes, good can come from those beliefs.

It's really not all or none.

I would say that most times, good comes from those beliefs. there are bad apples everywhere, religious or not.

my motto is this:

don't blame the religion, blame those who twist it to fit their own agenda.

hedonist wrote:

I still have two pages of this thread to read, so apologies if I'm jumping the gun, and fuckitall but I feel weary in the soul this morning.

So I'll say that despite my own "I don't know and likely never will" philosophy, faith got my mother in law through three decades of being fucked through and through by cancer.

Faith helped my father overcome some fucked up hate by those who wanted his kind dead because of...well, choose your poison there.

I may not believe as they did, but fuck me if I'll put them down for what helped them through blackness and even just maybe contributed to their decency and being the best parents they could, with what they had - not in the material sense, either. And while I get that "morals" aren't derived from religion itself, the tenets aren't necessarily closeminded and smothering as some may suggest.

Sometimes, good can come from those beliefs.

It's really not all or none.

Yep. Great post.

Since this has been a pretty open discussion, I'll toss out my thoughts on the reality of religion real quick in two parts:

1) I think there is a God, or a spiritual element - call it what you will, that created time and all that's included within it. I see it like this: We, humans live in time. We can't fathom any timeless aspect. Before we are born and when we die we exist outside of time - this is factual from awareness of those who live in time - we aren't there pre-birth and aren't there after death. But, we don't remember (pre-birth or after-death) because remembering is a function of time. God, or this force, exists both in time and outside.... as the origin of time this force would need to exist in both.

I think this is pretty logical and, personally, I see the probability of what I said above is higher than any alternative. So, I think it's probable that God exists.

2) What I have a tougher time grasping is does our actions here and now dictate anything? Religion says it does. Jesus said it did. The Old Testament says they do. Islam says it does. Etc. But, they all do so in different ways with lots of caveats. However there's a central message too. Basically, in various forms, they say what you do on earth impacts your fellow man negatively you're impacting God. Some say you'll be punished, some steer clear of that. I kinda get what they are saying there. But, not sure I buy that punishment in the afterlife aspect (hell to some). I suppose I kinda think Jesus meant you're punishing yourself by doing that negative thing to your neighbor, not that you will be punished in death - but, who knows - it's hard to decipher. Another point, many say if you outright reject God or this notion of God's existence on earth, you're outright rejecting God outside of time. This I don't know, but I get this a bit more. This is also saying actions here and now matter, but in a different way. It's kinda like answering the question: "do you want God to exist? And responding NO repetitively through your life". That makes sense that you're rejecting God afterwards too, but it's confusing. For me, I understand that my point 2) and this paragraph is where it gets trickier. Probabilities get more murky here than in part 1). And also I think this is where the fighting and bickering really takes route.

This is what I was saying before in my last post. There's a distinction between believing in God (or a force of creation) and believing what happens to every single human when we die. It's important to note both 1) and 2) above and not equate them when trying to discuss this stuff.

hedonist wrote:

I still have two pages of this thread to read, so apologies if I'm jumping the gun, and fuckitall but I feel weary in the soul this morning.

So I'll say that despite my own "I don't know and likely never will" philosophy, faith got my mother in law through three decades of being fucked through and through by cancer.

Faith helped my father overcome some fucked up hate by those who wanted his kind dead because of...well, choose your poison there.

I may not believe as they did, but fuck me if I'll put them down for what helped them through blackness and even just maybe contributed to their decency and being the best parents they could, with what they had - not in the material sense, either. And while I get that "morals" aren't derived from religion itself, the tenets aren't necessarily closeminded and smothering as some may suggest.

Sometimes, good can come from those beliefs.

It's really not all or none.

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I don't speak for everyone... just myself. I say that faith and hope are positive human traits and I'm glad people find comfort in them. If it works for them, great... they have found what they are looking for. I have not. If anyone is looking for answers from me... they ain't finding any.
If Man were trustworthy, then we probably wouldn't need to create a God who is. It's too bad that Man cannot place his faith in Mankind.

hedonist wrote:

Cosmo wrote:

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I don't speak for everyone... just myself. I say that faith and hope are positive human traits and I'm glad people find comfort in them. If it works for them, great... they have found what they are looking for. I have not. If anyone is looking for answers from me... they ain't finding any.
If Man were trustworthy, then we probably wouldn't need to create a God who is. It's too bad that Man cannot place his faith in Mankind.

Oh, I hear you, and besides within myself, I'm not sure where else I put my faith. I've just grown tired of some who chomp at the bit, waiting to point and shout "See? Stupid believers!"

It's as ugly and hateful as those who twist and distort what I think faith was intended to be - strength and direction for those who need it, for whatever reason. Hate has no place anywhere in that, from the spectrum of devoutness to atheism.

It's funny, I went to look up the lyrics of Mankind after reading your post, but my mind went to Faithfull.

"just be a darling, and I will be too...faithfull to you"

Not about religion necessarily, but about truth of and to oneself.

I find that a problem arises, though, when "truth" is dictated to people from the youngest age possible... which is often the case when it comes to what people believe in this context... When people are brainwashed to believe something from childhood, is that still truth of and to oneself? I don't think so. And therein lies the main problem.

inlet13 wrote:

Being educated and being brainwashed can easily be confused. Which is which? Is it - if you agree with it, that it's education, and if you disagree is it brainwashing? Think about it.

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I believe the Bible (or Koran or Torah) would make a great subject in education... if it were treated as literature.

Cosmo wrote:

inlet13 wrote:

Being educated and being brainwashed can easily be confused. Which is which? Is it - if you agree with it, that it's education, and if you disagree is it brainwashing? Think about it.

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I believe the Bible (or Koran or Torah) would make a great subject in education... if it were treated as literature.

excellently put.