And I am always understanding of those who find comfort or whatever else in their beliefs, assuming they don't get in the way of anyone else's beliefs. I'm not open minded about organized religion or how it works, but I am open minded about people and how they choose to live their lives.
Are you dismissive of spirituality as well as religion PJ_Soul? I honestly get this negative feel from your posts, as if you are not open minded to much of anything not only religious, but any sort of spirituality.
Being educated and being brainwashed can easily be confused. Which is which? Is it - if you agree with it, that it's education, and if you disagree is it brainwashing? Think about it.
Not to over simplify the issue but I'd say that if the teacher encourages critical thinking and skepticism, that is education but if they dish out information and beliefs as truth without encouraging that kind of thinking, that is brainwashing.
Which method of teaching used most often in religious teaching? That's a rhetorical question. It's also why I personally rejected all religion and choose the simpler beliefs of mystery and wonder.
No offense, Brian... but, I find this post pretty funny.
Let's re-work what you wrote and think about "climate change"... instead of "religion".
To use your words in regards to climate change - If a teacher encourages critical thinking and "SKEPTICISM" that is education, right? If they dish out information and beliefs as truth WITHOUT encouraging that kind of thinking, that is brainwashing.
This is coming from a person who's used the term "DENIER" regarding those who don't completely buy into what global climate change is selling. I mean I was always a person who said - I'm not sure it's real. I don't buy it completely. I build statistical models, like the ones used for climate change, I know they are faulty. I know the data is questionable at best. I know there could be incentives for there to be climate change. It could be real, but it very well may not be. Just like many thought the world was flat, but some questioned that logic.
I don't mean for that to come across as instigating, I'm seriously curious. It appears to me that some here want religious folks to fit into certain rules, but then don't want those same rules to apply to them if it's an issue they feel passionately about.
Seems kinda... hypocritical. That's all.
Inlet, we may agree to a point here. First and foremost I do contend that there's a difference between having information (data for positivist quant and qual researchers) that, while disputable, is compelling information nonetheless and basing one's beliefs solely on 'faith", a book a bunch of dudes on shrooms wrote, and interpretations of this fantastical book by men with varied personal interests in spreading its "word". Thus I will disagree to a point as well.
But, for the first time ever, we do agree that it would not seem germane to Brian's or my critical worldview to ask people to question their very basic assumptions, then maintain their own without question. I can't wait for classes to start...generally the best days are the one's where my own beliefs are questioned by students and we both work back from the start (asking why they/I believe what we do). Thus for Brian why do you believe so deeply in climate change being "real" (it very well may be and I am partial to this belief), and why do people who believe in god believe so deeply in him/it/her? Sometimes we find that their are motives beyond the belief in said thing, sometimes its rooted in some more persuasive information, and so on. Regardless, and again for the first time ever, I agree with Inlet that no assumption/belief is above reproach.
No, I didn't. I know that MANY people aren't capable of coming to their own conclusions because I spent so much time around so many of them during my own explorations - I'm talking about entire congregations of people, who are a good example of what is being match among other congregations within the same denomination. It's not a mistake... The churches go out of their way to do it, and are good at what they do. They tried to do it to me too, just as a matter of course. And btw, when I rejected what they were trying to do (brainwash me), they told me I was going to burn in hell and shit. They don't kid around. And I'm talking several different Christian churches (I did NOT have the same kinds of experiences with Islamists, although I did did some exploring with Sikhism, and it really wasn't much different in this context, but they were more careful and less obvious about it, by design). I do NOT mean all people. But a great many of them. It's how organized religion works. You don't have to take my word on it obviously. I only have my own experiences and observations to go on (and what else I hear from others). But I do think that my own experiences are pretty informative.
So, anyway, I thought this thread was interesting because there were a lot of open-minded folks kinda exchanging ideas. I kinda think your posts come across as judgmental. I think you're trying to be open-minded, but don't realize that you're coming across as ridiculously judgmental, which is kinda sad.
I also have experience with religion, I don't see it the same way you do at all. I understand that people don't like this religious institution, or that. They have a right - and you have the right to say what you are saying about these people. Basically, you're saying they are in cults and they don't know it. That's how I interpret what you're saying.
I'd say you are coming off as close-minded as the people we were originally discussing.
Well, I certaiy do have an opinion on the matter, and do hold certain beliefs about what organized religions are (yes, cults... too bad people get offended by that thinking but it's how it seems to me). I don't believe that makes me close-minded though. I don't understand how... if that's true, then we can all call each other closed-minded, sincs we all disagree with other people. What would be the alternative here? What would make me appear open-minded? I've already said that I respect that others find comfort or peace in their beliefs as long as they don't interfere with other people's rights or beliefs, even though I don't believe in the same things. Not sure how that's close-minded.
As far as being judgemental goes... sure okay. I have ideas that feel pretty solid on, and those opinions include other people and their beliefs. If that is judgement, then I guess I'll own it? If that's judgemental, then it's totally unavoidable for us all (like you being judgemental about me in this post, for example, or any other time you or any of us make statements against things that others believe in). Fact of life I guess. But I think throwing around the term seems kind of strange and hypocritical for anyone around hear who participates in these discussions.
In the end, I've been dead honest about how I see things. I know that my opinions rub people the wrong way; atheists do rub non-atheists the wrong way pretty often I guess because we necessarily believe that what they believe is a crock. :? There doesn't seem any way around that.... it's what atheism is basically based on. And btw, people are outrageously judgemental towards atheists as well. But I don't take offense to that, because it's just an absolute given.
If any one of you claim that you're never judgemental, I'll call you a liar.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Inlet, we may agree to a point here. First and foremost I do contend that there's a difference between having information (data for positivist quant and qual researchers) that, while disputable, is compelling information nonetheless and basing one's beliefs solely on 'faith", a book a bunch of dudes on shrooms wrote, and interpretations of this fantastical book by men with varied personal interests in spreading its "word". Thus I will disagree to a point as well.
But, for the first time ever, we do agree that it would not seem germane to Brian's or my critical worldview to ask people to question their very basic assumptions, then maintain their own without question. I can't wait for classes to start...generally the best days are the one's where my own beliefs are questioned by students and we both work back from the start (asking why they/I believe what we do). Thus for Brian why do you believe so deeply in climate change being "real" (it very well may be and I am partial to this belief), and why do people who believe in god believe so deeply in him/it/her? Sometimes we find that their are motives beyond the belief in said thing, sometimes its rooted in some more persuasive information, and so on. Regardless, and again for the first time ever, I agree with Inlet that no assumption/belief is above reproach.
Glad you've finally come to your senses! Just kidding.
I do agree though with your premise and even others who've discussed the topic in a different way - basically, a good teacher doesn't indoctrinate. They discuss and present all sides. If one really believes there's a truth, it shouldn't need to be force-fed. In fact, that could work in the opposite manner.
No, I didn't. I know that MANY people aren't capable of coming to their own conclusions because I spent so much time around so many of them during my own explorations - I'm talking about entire congregations of people, who are a good example of what is being match among other congregations within the same denomination. It's not a mistake... The churches go out of their way to do it, and are good at what they do. They tried to do it to me too, just as a matter of course. And btw, when I rejected what they were trying to do (brainwash me), they told me I was going to burn in hell and shit. They don't kid around. And I'm talking several different Christian churches (I did NOT have the same kinds of experiences with Islamists, although I did did some exploring with Sikhism, and it really wasn't much different in this context, but they were more careful and less obvious about it, by design). I do NOT mean all people. But a great many of them. It's how organized religion works. You don't have to take my word on it obviously. I only have my own experiences and observations to go on (and what else I hear from others). But I do think that my own experiences are pretty informative.
So, anyway, I thought this thread was interesting because there were a lot of open-minded folks kinda exchanging ideas. I kinda think your posts come across as judgmental. I think you're trying to be open-minded, but don't realize that you're coming across as ridiculously judgmental, which is kinda sad.
I also have experience with religion, I don't see it the same way you do at all. I understand that people don't like this religious institution, or that. They have a right - and you have the right to say what you are saying about these people. Basically, you're saying they are in cults and they don't know it. That's how I interpret what you're saying.
I'd say you are coming off as close-minded as the people we were originally discussing.
inlet this depends on the meaning of cult that you are using here with regard to pjsoul. cult used to mean new religious movements and then in recent times has taken on more negative connotations (like the Waco, TX thingy). Honestly, as a person in Cultural Studies/Sociology, I see many similarities in traditional organized religions and cults as they have been popularly known - both violent and non-violent. Of course this doesn't mean every religious person is brainwashed or stupid or unskeptical or murderous, but some pretty horrible things have happened in their "honor". Further, I too had similarly difficult experiences as a youngster practicing the book of Cathol. I am confirmed, served as an altar boy and did all the church stuff, but as I got older and started asking questions like what was so different between what happened in Waco and what has gone on in the world under Christianity things weren't so fun. Does that mean everyone has had that same negative experience with religion or spirituality no. But my and pjsouls probably cloud our vision of how good religion and spirituality can be.
Inlet, we may agree to a point here. First and foremost I do contend that there's a difference between having information (data for positivist quant and qual researchers) that, while disputable, is compelling information nonetheless and basing one's beliefs solely on 'faith", a book a bunch of dudes on shrooms wrote, and interpretations of this fantastical book by men with varied personal interests in spreading its "word". Thus I will disagree to a point as well.
But, for the first time ever, we do agree that it would not seem germane to Brian's or my critical worldview to ask people to question their very basic assumptions, then maintain their own without question. I can't wait for classes to start...generally the best days are the one's where my own beliefs are questioned by students and we both work back from the start (asking why they/I believe what we do). Thus for Brian why do you believe so deeply in climate change being "real" (it very well may be and I am partial to this belief), and why do people who believe in god believe so deeply in him/it/her? Sometimes we find that their are motives beyond the belief in said thing, sometimes its rooted in some more persuasive information, and so on. Regardless, and again for the first time ever, I agree with Inlet that no assumption/belief is above reproach.
Glad you've finally come to your senses! Just kidding.
I do agree though with your premise and even others who've discussed the topic in a different way - basically, a good teacher doesn't indoctrinate. They discuss and present all sides. If one really believes there's a truth, it shouldn't need to be force-fed. In fact, that could work in the opposite manner.
Exactly, when I first taught I'd get all fired up and had many students who would like it but some others who'd be turned off and not listen/come to class. As I've developed as a person/prof I've made other ways of thinking more available in class, admit to my own leanings, then ask to discuss them. As a result my student evals have gone from 4.1/5 to something like 4.8/5 in the last couple years. For those wondering if that's just easy grading I have a 30 percent D or lower rate in courses.
No, I didn't. I know that MANY people aren't capable of coming to their own conclusions because I spent so much time around so many of them during my own explorations - I'm talking about entire congregations of people, who are a good example of what is being match among other congregations within the same denomination. It's not a mistake... The churches go out of their way to do it, and are good at what they do. They tried to do it to me too, just as a matter of course. And btw, when I rejected what they were trying to do (brainwash me), they told me I was going to burn in hell and shit. They don't kid around. And I'm talking several different Christian churches (I did NOT have the same kinds of experiences with Islamists, although I did did some exploring with Sikhism, and it really wasn't much different in this context, but they were more careful and less obvious about it, by design). I do NOT mean all people. But a great many of them. It's how organized religion works. You don't have to take my word on it obviously. I only have my own experiences and observations to go on (and what else I hear from others). But I do think that my own experiences are pretty informative.
So, anyway, I thought this thread was interesting because there were a lot of open-minded folks kinda exchanging ideas. I kinda think your posts come across as judgmental. I think you're trying to be open-minded, but don't realize that you're coming across as ridiculously judgmental, which is kinda sad.
I also have experience with religion, I don't see it the same way you do at all. I understand that people don't like this religious institution, or that. They have a right - and you have the right to say what you are saying about these people. Basically, you're saying they are in cults and they don't know it. That's how I interpret what you're saying.
I'd say you are coming off as close-minded as the people we were originally discussing.
inlet this depends on the meaning of cult that you are using here with regard to pjsoul. cult used to mean new religious movements and then in recent times has taken on more negative connotations (like the Waco, TX thingy). Honestly, as a person in Cultural Studies/Sociology, I see many similarities in traditional organized religions and cults as they have been popularly known - both violent and non-violent. Of course this doesn't mean every religious person is brainwashed or stupid or unskeptical or murderous, but some pretty horrible things have happened in their "honor". Further, I too had similarly difficult experiences as a youngster practicing the book of Cathol. I am confirmed, served as an altar boy and did all the church stuff, but as I got older and started asking questions like what was so different between what happened in Waco and what has gone on in the world under Christianity things weren't so fun. Does that mean everyone has had that same negative experience with religion or spirituality no. But my and pjsouls probably cloud our vision of how good religion and spirituality can be.
I also come from the book of Cathol as you call it. I don't see any similarities whatsoever with a cult. To me -cults are to be recently formed, small, groups which exercise rigid control through one figure - not a body of figures. They freak if you escape.
Catholic church is 2000 years old. If it's not the largest, it's one of the top three largest religions in the world. It does not exercise rigid control over it's members - there are millions and millions of lapsed Catholics who have don't care about the religion. Brainwashing doesn't appear to be working lol. If you don't go to mass, no one cares - at least that was the case when I grew up. Sorry - I don't see it. It's not a cult. But, that's one example that I know about and I only comment on that one religion because you brought it up. How about Islam? How about the Jewish faith? Buddhism? Etc.
In a way, this conversation is exactly what we've been discussing in the thread, except it's providing evidence more concrete evidence that other side exists. Throughout this thread, most folks were kinda trading stories/thoughts about hard-headed folks who are sure they know and demand you do the same - totalitarian atheists or totalitarian believers. We were kinda saying that the approach should be "to each his or her own" - each faith should be respected, regardless of what it is and each person should be respected. I kinda think the synopsis of the thread was - If you love your faith (or lack there of) - great - you can talk about it I guess with respect - but, if you do also respect that someone else may be just as smart, just as wise and have their own faith (or lack there of). Respect to all, and don't assume you know better was the key here.
To me, Pj_soul's comments throughout were leaning towards the intolerant non-religious folks, if not fully engulfed - that's my opinion, however. Your defense of her comments... don't agree with them at all. Not sure where you stand on this issue though because you're kinda jumping in randomly here.
Being educated and being brainwashed can easily be confused. Which is which? Is it - if you agree with it, that it's education, and if you disagree is it brainwashing? Think about it.
Not to over simplify the issue but I'd say that if the teacher encourages critical thinking and skepticism, that is education but if they dish out information and beliefs as truth without encouraging that kind of thinking, that is brainwashing.
Which method of teaching used most often in religious teaching? That's a rhetorical question. It's also why I personally rejected all religion and choose the simpler beliefs of mystery and wonder.
No offense, Brian... but, I find this post pretty funny.
Let's re-work what you wrote and think about "climate change"... instead of "religion".
To use your words in regards to climate change - If a teacher encourages critical thinking and "SKEPTICISM" that is education, right? If they dish out information and beliefs as truth WITHOUT encouraging that kind of thinking, that is brainwashing.
This is coming from a person who's used the term "DENIER" regarding those who don't completely buy into what global climate change is selling. I mean I was always a person who said - I'm not sure it's real. I don't buy it completely. I build statistical models, like the ones used for climate change, I know they are faulty. I know the data is questionable at best. I know there could be incentives for there to be climate change. It could be real, but it very well may not be. Just like many thought the world was flat, but some questioned that logic.
I don't mean for that to come across as instigating, I'm seriously curious. It appears to me that some here want religious folks to fit into certain rules, but then don't want those same rules to apply to them if it's an issue they feel passionately about.
Seems kinda... hypocritical. That's all.
"Funny", "hypocritical"? I think not. This is not a fair comparison. Climate change/global warming is quantifiable. God/religion is not. :fp: You'll have to try harder than that to pick a feud with me.
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
yeah hopped on late sorry for that....honestly as I've grown the most compelling religion for me is the Jewish religion. They still debate shit from their books (not down with doing the rituals and stuff but I still put up a tree and lights so wtf), and they still fight with one another about interpretations and what it all means. Still in then end they all come together. As for the book of Cathol (that's from a comedy set I saw once fuck I can't remember who did it - a british dude in drag pretty famous too), where I went to church it was noted when you weren't there and you got looks and questions for not going. I have a feeling some peoples' negative experiences stem from this treatment. This past year I hung out with my good friend's grad student who is pretty religious and he basically told me my experience was nowhere near his. He was encouraged to question and think differently and interpret the 'good book' in his own way. I'll bet that if that were my experience I'd have a different outlook on this stuff. I'll read the rest of the thread in the morning to catch up. Good luck this semester!
So, anyway, I thought this thread was interesting because there were a lot of open-minded folks kinda exchanging ideas. I kinda think your posts come across as judgmental. I think you're trying to be open-minded, but don't realize that you're coming across as ridiculously judgmental, which is kinda sad.
I also have experience with religion, I don't see it the same way you do at all. I understand that people don't like this religious institution, or that. They have a right - and you have the right to say what you are saying about these people. Basically, you're saying they are in cults and they don't know it. That's how I interpret what you're saying.
I'd say you are coming off as close-minded as the people we were originally discussing.
inlet this depends on the meaning of cult that you are using here with regard to pjsoul. cult used to mean new religious movements and then in recent times has taken on more negative connotations (like the Waco, TX thingy). Honestly, as a person in Cultural Studies/Sociology, I see many similarities in traditional organized religions and cults as they have been popularly known - both violent and non-violent. Of course this doesn't mean every religious person is brainwashed or stupid or unskeptical or murderous, but some pretty horrible things have happened in their "honor". Further, I too had similarly difficult experiences as a youngster practicing the book of Cathol. I am confirmed, served as an altar boy and did all the church stuff, but as I got older and started asking questions like what was so different between what happened in Waco and what has gone on in the world under Christianity things weren't so fun. Does that mean everyone has had that same negative experience with religion or spirituality no. But my and pjsouls probably cloud our vision of how good religion and spirituality can be.
I also come from the book of Cathol as you call it. I don't see any similarities whatsoever with a cult. To me -cults are to be recently formed, small, groups which exercise rigid control through one figure - not a body of figures. They freak if you escape.
Catholic church is 2000 years old. If it's not the largest, it's one of the top three largest religions in the world. It does not exercise rigid control over it's members - there are millions and millions of lapsed Catholics who have don't care about the religion. Brainwashing doesn't appear to be working lol. If you don't go to mass, no one cares - at least that was the case when I grew up. Sorry - I don't see it. It's not a cult. But, that's one example that I know about and I only comment on that one religion because you brought it up. How about Islam? How about the Jewish faith? Buddhism? Etc.
In a way, this conversation is exactly what we've been discussing in the thread, except it's providing evidence more concrete evidence that other side exists. Throughout this thread, most folks were kinda trading stories/thoughts about hard-headed folks who are sure they know and demand you do the same - totalitarian atheists or totalitarian believers. We were kinda saying that the approach should be "to each his or her own" - each faith should be respected, regardless of what it is and each person should be respected. I kinda think the synopsis of the thread was - If you love your faith (or lack there of) - great - you can talk about it I guess with respect - but, if you do also respect that someone else may be just as smart, just as wise and have their own faith (or lack there of). Respect to all, and don't assume you know better was the key here.
To me, Pj_soul's comments throughout were leaning towards the intolerant non-religious folks, if not fully engulfed - that's my opinion, however. Your defense of her comments... don't agree with them at all. Not sure where you stand on this issue though because you're kinda jumping in randomly here.
Anyway, to each his or her own. Enjoy class.
If that's what you think of me, then you are mistaken, or I have poorly expressed myself. However, I've said several times now that I respect that others find comfort and strength in their belief of god. I have no idea how that translates into fanatical intolerance for you. I think you are completely misinterpreting everything I've said. For the record, I am the only atheist in my family, and have only one friend who shares my beliefs. None of all those believers think of me as intolerant (I am, however, intolerant of those who try to impinge on others' beliefs... I think that says it all, and it's not the first time I've said it).
As far as the cult thing goes... that seems to simply be a matter of what we think that means. My definition of what a cult is differs from yours. Semantics, really.
All in all though, aside from your low opinion of me, who h I guess came about because I happen to be the one who offended you (I prescribe to the 'oh, I offended you? Well so the fuck what?' Mantra), I think this whole thread has been pretty cool!
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
yeah hopped on late sorry for that....honestly as I've grown the most compelling religion for me is the Jewish religion. They still debate shit from their books (not down with doing the rituals and stuff but I still put up a tree and lights so wtf), and they still fight with one another about interpretations and what it all means. Still in then end they all come together. As for the book of Cathol (that's from a comedy set I saw once fuck I can't remember who did it - a british dude in drag pretty famous too), where I went to church it was noted when you weren't there and you got looks and questions for not going. I have a feeling some peoples' negative experiences stem from this treatment. This past year I hung out with my good friend's grad student who is pretty religious and he basically told me my experience was nowhere near his. He was encouraged to question and think differently and interpret the 'good book' in his own way. I'll bet that if that were my experience I'd have a different outlook on this stuff. I'll read the rest of the thread in the morning to catch up. Good luck this semester!
That's interesting that say that about Judaism, because I've actually said out loud that. I had to choose a religion to be a part of, I'd choose to be Jewish, and it is because they seem to question more and explore their faith more than other faiths tend to... of doesn't hurt that women have a more preferable status as far as I've noticed, which helps, as a woman. I haven't given it much thought, but that just struck me!
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
yeah hopped on late sorry for that....honestly as I've grown the most compelling religion for me is the Jewish religion. They still debate shit from their books (not down with doing the rituals and stuff but I still put up a tree and lights so wtf), and they still fight with one another about interpretations and what it all means. Still in then end they all come together. As for the book of Cathol (that's from a comedy set I saw once fuck I can't remember who did it - a british dude in drag pretty famous too), where I went to church it was noted when you weren't there and you got looks and questions for not going. I have a feeling some peoples' negative experiences stem from this treatment. This past year I hung out with my good friend's grad student who is pretty religious and he basically told me my experience was nowhere near his. He was encouraged to question and think differently and interpret the 'good book' in his own way. I'll bet that if that were my experience I'd have a different outlook on this stuff. I'll read the rest of the thread in the morning to catch up. Good luck this semester!
That's interesting that say that about Judaism, because I've actually said out loud that. I had to choose a religion to be a part of, I'd choose to be Jewish, and it is because they seem to question more and explore their faith more than other faiths tend to... of doesn't hurt that women have a more preferable status as far as I've noticed, which helps, as a woman. I haven't given it much thought, but that just struck me!
do you wonder what would have to happen in your life for you to be choosing this/any religion?
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
That's interesting that say that about Judaism, because I've actually said out loud that. I had to choose a religion to be a part of, I'd choose to be Jewish, and it is because they seem to question more and explore their faith more than other faiths tend to... of doesn't hurt that women have a more preferable status as far as I've noticed, which helps, as a woman. I haven't given it much thought, but that just struck me!
Interesting... I'd choose Buddhism... but it does seem to be more of a philosophy. Discovery, question and reflection comes out of Buddhism more, at least in my opinion.
And I am always understanding of those who find comfort or whatever else in their beliefs, assuming they don't get in the way of anyone else's beliefs. I'm not open minded about organized religion or how it works, but I am open minded about people and how they choose to live their lives.
Are you dismissive of spirituality as well as religion PJ_Soul? I honestly get this negative feel from your posts, as if you are not open minded to much of anything not only religious, but any sort of spirituality.
Nope, I'm all for spirituality, and am accepting of it in all forms. Too bad that's how I'm coming off because that's not how I am at all (in another post I talked about being perfect open to the connection between loving things, maybe an after life of some kind, the beauty of the world and how amazing the human imagination is... etc. And i feel a very deep connection with nature, and solidly believe in soul mates (both romantic and non-romantic). Maybe you missed that post? Perhaps it's my tendency to be very blunt that is throwing you? I assure you, I'm not negative. I think those who know me would say I'm one of the happiest and positive people they know. I was in an rely bad mood today though, due to some people being idiots at work. .. maybe that was just translating into my posts.
I do indeed, however, have an extremely negative view of organized religion. I do understand all the good that can stem from it, but that is nothing compared to what I think is negativese about it. There is a reason, though, why I always specifically say "organized religion" as opposed to just "religion".
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
That's interesting that say that about Judaism, because I've actually said out loud that. I had to choose a religion to be a part of, I'd choose to be Jewish, and it is because they seem to question more and explore their faith more than other faiths tend to... of doesn't hurt that women have a more preferable status as far as I've noticed, which helps, as a woman. I haven't given it much thought, but that just struck me!
Yet you categorize them all/mostly? as cults. I'm sorry, but I'm having trouble following your thought processes on this (does it have to be said? not trying to attack).
edit - guess you were having a shit day too, so...no ill will here.
That's interesting that say that about Judaism, because I've actually said out loud that. I had to choose a religion to be a part of, I'd choose to be Jewish, and it is because they seem to question more and explore their faith more than other faiths tend to... of doesn't hurt that women have a more preferable status as far as I've noticed, which helps, as a woman. I haven't given it much thought, but that just struck me!
Interesting... I'd choose Buddhism... but it does seem to be more of a philosophy. Discovery, question and reflection comes out of Buddhism more, at least in my opinion.
I respect Buddhism a LOT. But I don't group it into religion really. As you say, it's a philosophy. A good one. But not something I could embrace fully... I love a good steak, and I get pleasure from killing mosquitoes. :oops:
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
That's interesting that say that about Judaism, because I've actually said out loud that. I had to choose a religion to be a part of, I'd choose to be Jewish, and it is because they seem to question more and explore their faith more than other faiths tend to... of doesn't hurt that women have a more preferable status as far as I've noticed, which helps, as a woman. I haven't given it much thought, but that just struck me!
Interesting... I'd choose Buddhism... but it does seem to be more of a philosophy. Discovery, question and reflection comes out of Buddhism more, at least in my opinion.
youre right, buddhism is not a religion. it centres not on a God but on a system of philosophy and a code of morality. we can all attain buddhahood.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
That's interesting that say that about Judaism, because I've actually said out loud that. I had to choose a religion to be a part of, I'd choose to be Jewish, and it is because they seem to question more and explore their faith more than other faiths tend to... of doesn't hurt that women have a more preferable status as far as I've noticed, which helps, as a woman. I haven't given it much thought, but that just struck me!
Yet you categorize them all/mostly? as cults. I'm sorry, but I'm having trouble following your thought processes on this (does it have to be said? not trying to attack).
edit - guess you were having a shit day too, so...no ill will here.
Yeah, I do categorized them as cults... I meant if someone put a gun to my head and made me choose.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
yeah hopped on late sorry for that....honestly as I've grown the most compelling religion for me is the Jewish religion. They still debate shit from their books (not down with doing the rituals and stuff but I still put up a tree and lights so wtf), and they still fight with one another about interpretations and what it all means. Still in then end they all come together. As for the book of Cathol (that's from a comedy set I saw once fuck I can't remember who did it - a british dude in drag pretty famous too), where I went to church it was noted when you weren't there and you got looks and questions for not going. I have a feeling some peoples' negative experiences stem from this treatment. This past year I hung out with my good friend's grad student who is pretty religious and he basically told me my experience was nowhere near his. He was encouraged to question and think differently and interpret the 'good book' in his own way. I'll bet that if that were my experience I'd have a different outlook on this stuff. I'll read the rest of the thread in the morning to catch up. Good luck this semester!
That's interesting that say that about Judaism, because I've actually said out loud that. I had to choose a religion to be a part of, I'd choose to be Jewish, and it is because they seem to question more and explore their faith more than other faiths tend to... of doesn't hurt that women have a more preferable status as far as I've noticed, which helps, as a woman. I haven't given it much thought, but that just struck me!
do you wonder what would have to happen in your life for you to be choosing this/any religion?
Not really, because it would take God himself appearing before me and telling me what was what... and that's certainy not going to happen! . My atheism is as strong as anyone's religious belief, and is ajout as uikely to be broken as anyone's deep faith in god. Contrary to what some assume, it is not a passive belief system.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
That's interesting that say that about Judaism, because I've actually said out loud that. I had to choose a religion to be a part of, I'd choose to be Jewish, and it is because they seem to question more and explore their faith more than other faiths tend to... of doesn't hurt that women have a more preferable status as far as I've noticed, which helps, as a woman. I haven't given it much thought, but that just struck me!
Yet you categorize them all/mostly? as cults. I'm sorry, but I'm having trouble following your thought processes on this (does it have to be said? not trying to attack).
edit - guess you were having a shit day too, so...no ill will here.
Yeah, I do categorized them as cults... I meant if someone put a gun to my head and made me choose.
id die an atheist.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
That's interesting that say that about Judaism, because I've actually said out loud that. I had to choose a religion to be a part of, I'd choose to be Jewish, and it is because they seem to question more and explore their faith more than other faiths tend to... of doesn't hurt that women have a more preferable status as far as I've noticed, which helps, as a woman. I haven't given it much thought, but that just struck me!
Yet you categorize them all/mostly? as cults. I'm sorry, but I'm having trouble following your thought processes on this (does it have to be said? not trying to attack).
edit - guess you were having a shit day too, so...no ill will here.
Yeah, I do categorized them as cults... I meant if someone put a gun to my head and made me choose.
OK - I'm just not getting your point then. Figured I'd give it a shot.
Yet you categorize them all/mostly? as cults. I'm sorry, but I'm having trouble following your thought processes on this (does it have to be said? not trying to attack).
edit - guess you were having a shit day too, so...no ill will here.
Yeah, I do categorized them as cults... I meant if someone put a gun to my head and made me choose.
id die an atheist.
I know what you mean. But I'd declare a religion if it meant living... shhh, don't tell anyone - I still wouldn't believe in god. :think: maybe I wouldn't make a good Jew.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I know what you mean. But I'd declare a religion if it meant living... shhh, don't tell anyone - I still wouldn't believe in god. :think: maybe I wouldn't make a good Jew.
id rather die true to myself than fake a religious affiliation. according to dante, the deceivers are closer to the pit of hell than the murderers.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
I know what you mean. But I'd declare a religion if it meant living... shhh, don't tell anyone - I still wouldn't believe in god. :think: maybe I wouldn't make a good Jew.
id rather die true to myself than fake a religious affiliation. according to dante, the deceivers are closer to the pit of hell than the murderers.
Fair enough. If I'd actually been a Jew in Germany in 1942, i would have tried to pretend otherwise and remained. a Jew in my heart as long as I had to. Same goes with my atheism. That's staying true to myself, without bothering to make a point for the benefit of others. I'm an atheist only for myself. I wouldn't care if others thought otherwise if it meant not being murdered. I'm happy to declare my beliefs, but the declaration isn't what defines them. But that's just me. I respect your thinking on the matter..... uh, let's hope it doesn't come to such such a decision! . Plus, since I don't believe in hell, I'm not too worried about what Dante said in that one!
Ps- pls excuse all the errors in my posts... I'm on a smartphone and have had a bottle of wine to soothe my shit-ass day!
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I know what you mean. But I'd declare a religion if it meant living... shhh, don't tell anyone - I still wouldn't believe in god. :think: maybe I wouldn't make a good Jew.
id rather die true to myself than fake a religious affiliation. according to dante, the deceivers are closer to the pit of hell than the murderers.
Fair enough. If I'd actually been a Jew in Germany in 1942, i would have tried to pretend otherwise and remained. a Jew in my heart as long as I had to. Same goes with my atheism. That's staying true to myself, without bothering to make a point for the benefit of others. I'm an atheist only for myself. I wouldn't care if others thought otherwise if it meant not being murdered. I'm happy to declare my beliefs, but the declaration isn't what defines them. But that's just me..... uh, let's hope it doesn't come to such such a decision! . Plus, since I don't believe in hell, I'm not too worried about what Dante said in that one!
Ps- pls excuse my posts... I'm on a smartphone and have had a bottle of wine to soothe my shit-ass day!
i dont believe in hell either but dante is an interesting read.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
id rather die true to myself than fake a religious affiliation. according to dante, the deceivers are closer to the pit of hell than the murderers.
Fair enough. If I'd actually been a Jew in Germany in 1942, i would have tried to pretend otherwise and remained. a Jew in my heart as long as I had to. Same goes with my atheism. That's staying true to myself, without bothering to make a point for the benefit of others. I'm an atheist only for myself. I wouldn't care if others thought otherwise if it meant not being murdered. I'm happy to declare my beliefs, but the declaration isn't what defines them. But that's just me..... uh, let's hope it doesn't come to such such a decision! . Plus, since I don't believe in hell, I'm not too worried about what Dante said in that one!
Ps- pls excuse my posts... I'm on a smartphone and have had a bottle of wine to soothe my shit-ass day!
i dont believe in hell either but dante is an interesting read.
Agreed! ... I edited my post while you posted this btw.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Fair enough. If I'd actually been a Jew in Germany in 1942, i would have tried to pretend otherwise and remained. a Jew in my heart as long as I had to. Same goes with my atheism. That's staying true to myself, without bothering to make a point for the benefit of others. I'm an atheist only for myself. I wouldn't care if others thought otherwise if it meant not being murdered. I'm happy to declare my beliefs, but the declaration isn't what defines them. But that's just me..... uh, let's hope it doesn't come to such such a decision! . Plus, since I don't believe in hell, I'm not too worried about what Dante said in that one!
Ps- pls excuse my posts... I'm on a smartphone and have had a bottle of wine to soothe my shit-ass day!
it wasnt just about not declaring as a jew. if there was any doubt, they measured your features to determine if you were a jew or not... so merely declaring for catholicism or whatever woudntve necessarily kept you out of the gas chamber. no matter how often or deep i think about the shoah, my brain will never stop being boggled by the depths of mankinds depravity... and his capability for such.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
0
brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,426
I believe in the God of Sleep. My prayer is, "Oh Lord of Sleep, why hast though forsaken me? I beseech ye to bestow your blessing on my poor little brain tonight. Amen"
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
I believe in the God of Sleep. My prayer is, "Oh Lord of Sleep, why hast though forsaken me? I beseech ye to bestow your blessing on my poor little brain tonight. Amen"
mmm morpheus.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Fair enough. If I'd actually been a Jew in Germany in 1942, i would have tried to pretend otherwise and remained. a Jew in my heart as long as I had to. Same goes with my atheism. That's staying true to myself, without bothering to make a point for the benefit of others. I'm an atheist only for myself. I wouldn't care if others thought otherwise if it meant not being murdered. I'm happy to declare my beliefs, but the declaration isn't what defines them. But that's just me..... uh, let's hope it doesn't come to such such a decision! . Plus, since I don't believe in hell, I'm not too worried about what Dante said in that one!
Ps- pls excuse my posts... I'm on a smartphone and have had a bottle of wine to soothe my shit-ass day!
it wasnt just about not declaring as a jew. if there was any doubt, they measured your features to determine if you were a jew or not... so merely declaring for catholicism or whatever woudntve necessarily kept you out of the gas chamber. no matter how often or deep i think about the shoah, my brain will never stop being boggled by the depths of mankinds depravity... and his capability for such.
That is for sure. Boggles the mind is exactly how I would out it too. I think that's why Schindler's list is my favorite movie. I want to be emotionally impacted by a movie, and that shit impacts me emotionally like nothing else. Not to trivialize the reality of it with a movie reference.. just sayin'.
I have a big shnozz too. I would have been screwed ... :?
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Comments
Are you dismissive of spirituality as well as religion PJ_Soul? I honestly get this negative feel from your posts, as if you are not open minded to much of anything not only religious, but any sort of spirituality.
But, for the first time ever, we do agree that it would not seem germane to Brian's or my critical worldview to ask people to question their very basic assumptions, then maintain their own without question. I can't wait for classes to start...generally the best days are the one's where my own beliefs are questioned by students and we both work back from the start (asking why they/I believe what we do). Thus for Brian why do you believe so deeply in climate change being "real" (it very well may be and I am partial to this belief), and why do people who believe in god believe so deeply in him/it/her? Sometimes we find that their are motives beyond the belief in said thing, sometimes its rooted in some more persuasive information, and so on. Regardless, and again for the first time ever, I agree with Inlet that no assumption/belief is above reproach.
As far as being judgemental goes... sure okay. I have ideas that feel pretty solid on, and those opinions include other people and their beliefs. If that is judgement, then I guess I'll own it? If that's judgemental, then it's totally unavoidable for us all (like you being judgemental about me in this post, for example, or any other time you or any of us make statements against things that others believe in). Fact of life I guess. But I think throwing around the term seems kind of strange and hypocritical for anyone around hear who participates in these discussions.
In the end, I've been dead honest about how I see things. I know that my opinions rub people the wrong way; atheists do rub non-atheists the wrong way pretty often I guess because we necessarily believe that what they believe is a crock. :? There doesn't seem any way around that.... it's what atheism is basically based on. And btw, people are outrageously judgemental towards atheists as well. But I don't take offense to that, because it's just an absolute given.
If any one of you claim that you're never judgemental, I'll call you a liar.
Glad you've finally come to your senses!
I do agree though with your premise and even others who've discussed the topic in a different way - basically, a good teacher doesn't indoctrinate. They discuss and present all sides. If one really believes there's a truth, it shouldn't need to be force-fed. In fact, that could work in the opposite manner.
<object height="81" width="100%"> <param name="movie" value="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869"></param> <param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param> <embed allowscriptaccess="always" height="81" src="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="100%"></embed> </object> <span><a href=" - In the Fire (demo)</a> by <a href="
I also come from the book of Cathol as you call it. I don't see any similarities whatsoever with a cult. To me -cults are to be recently formed, small, groups which exercise rigid control through one figure - not a body of figures. They freak if you escape.
Catholic church is 2000 years old. If it's not the largest, it's one of the top three largest religions in the world. It does not exercise rigid control over it's members - there are millions and millions of lapsed Catholics who have don't care about the religion. Brainwashing doesn't appear to be working lol. If you don't go to mass, no one cares - at least that was the case when I grew up. Sorry - I don't see it. It's not a cult. But, that's one example that I know about and I only comment on that one religion because you brought it up. How about Islam? How about the Jewish faith? Buddhism? Etc.
In a way, this conversation is exactly what we've been discussing in the thread, except it's providing evidence more concrete evidence that other side exists. Throughout this thread, most folks were kinda trading stories/thoughts about hard-headed folks who are sure they know and demand you do the same - totalitarian atheists or totalitarian believers. We were kinda saying that the approach should be "to each his or her own" - each faith should be respected, regardless of what it is and each person should be respected. I kinda think the synopsis of the thread was - If you love your faith (or lack there of) - great - you can talk about it I guess with respect - but, if you do also respect that someone else may be just as smart, just as wise and have their own faith (or lack there of). Respect to all, and don't assume you know better was the key here.
To me, Pj_soul's comments throughout were leaning towards the intolerant non-religious folks, if not fully engulfed - that's my opinion, however. Your defense of her comments... don't agree with them at all. Not sure where you stand on this issue though because you're kinda jumping in randomly here.
Anyway, to each his or her own. Enjoy class.
<object height="81" width="100%"> <param name="movie" value="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869"></param> <param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param> <embed allowscriptaccess="always" height="81" src="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="100%"></embed> </object> <span><a href=" - In the Fire (demo)</a> by <a href="
"Funny", "hypocritical"? I think not. This is not a fair comparison. Climate change/global warming is quantifiable. God/religion is not. :fp: You'll have to try harder than that to pick a feud with me.
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
As far as the cult thing goes... that seems to simply be a matter of what we think that means. My definition of what a cult is differs from yours. Semantics, really.
All in all though, aside from your low opinion of me, who h I guess came about because I happen to be the one who offended you (I prescribe to the 'oh, I offended you? Well so the fuck what?' Mantra), I think this whole thread has been pretty cool!
do you wonder what would have to happen in your life for you to be choosing this/any religion?
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Interesting... I'd choose Buddhism... but it does seem to be more of a philosophy. Discovery, question and reflection comes out of Buddhism more, at least in my opinion.
I do indeed, however, have an extremely negative view of organized religion. I do understand all the good that can stem from it, but that is nothing compared to what I think is negativese about it. There is a reason, though, why I always specifically say "organized religion" as opposed to just "religion".
edit - guess you were having a shit day too, so...no ill will here.
youre right, buddhism is not a religion. it centres not on a God but on a system of philosophy and a code of morality. we can all attain buddhahood.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
id die an atheist.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
id rather die true to myself than fake a religious affiliation. according to dante, the deceivers are closer to the pit of hell than the murderers.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Ps- pls excuse all the errors in my posts... I'm on a smartphone and have had a bottle of wine to soothe my shit-ass day!
i dont believe in hell either but dante is an interesting read.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Agreed! ... I edited my post while you posted this btw.
it wasnt just about not declaring as a jew. if there was any doubt, they measured your features to determine if you were a jew or not... so merely declaring for catholicism or whatever woudntve necessarily kept you out of the gas chamber. no matter how often or deep i think about the shoah, my brain will never stop being boggled by the depths of mankinds depravity... and his capability for such.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
mmm morpheus.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
I have a big shnozz too. I would have been screwed ... :?