I believe in the God of Sleep. My prayer is, "Oh Lord of Sleep, why hast though forsaken me? I beseech ye to bestow your blessing on my poor little brain tonight. Amen"
Last night, The god of sleep sent an annoying yet cute kitty to paw at my face over and over. I hate your god.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
And I am always understanding of those who find comfort or whatever else in their beliefs, assuming they don't get in the way of anyone else's beliefs. I'm not open minded about organized religion or how it works, but I am open minded about people and how they choose to live their lives.
Are you dismissive of spirituality as well as religion PJ_Soul? I honestly get this negative feel from your posts, as if you are not open minded to much of anything not only religious, but any sort of spirituality.
Nope, I'm all for spirituality, and am accepting of it in all forms. Too bad that's how I'm coming off because that's not how I am at all (in another post I talked about being perfect open to the connection between loving things, maybe an after life of some kind, the beauty of the world and how amazing the human imagination is... etc. And i feel a very deep connection with nature, and solidly believe in soul mates (both romantic and non-romantic). Maybe you missed that post? Perhaps it's my tendency to be very blunt that is throwing you? I assure you, I'm not negative. I think those who know me would say I'm one of the happiest and positive people they know. I was in an rely bad mood today though, due to some people being idiots at work. .. maybe that was just translating into my posts.
I do indeed, however, have an extremely negative view of organized religion. I do understand all the good that can stem from it, but that is nothing compared to what I think is negativese about it. There is a reason, though, why I always specifically say "organized religion" as opposed to just "religion".
I must have missed that post. And we all have bad days...
How do you feel about the Earth? Paganism may be an organized religion, but it's rooted in nature, and the one I tend to gravitate to (as well as Buddhism) even though I'm against organized religion myself. I don't think you should group all religions as cults though. I've done papers about cults and the classic trait that separates them from organized religions is that members are not allowed to freely leave in cults, nor are members allowed to even communicate with the outside world. It's a huge difference in definitions of the two.
Since this has been a pretty open discussion, I'll toss out my thoughts on the reality of religion real quick in two parts:
1) I think there is a God, or a spiritual element - call it what you will, that created time and all that's included within it. I see it like this: We, humans live in time. We can't fathom any timeless aspect. Before we are born and when we die we exist outside of time - this is factual from awareness of those who live in time - we aren't there pre-birth and aren't there after death. But, we don't remember (pre-birth or after-death) because remembering is a function of time. God, or this force, exists both in time and outside.... as the origin of time this force would need to exist in both.
I think this is pretty logical and, personally, I see the probability of what I said above is higher than any alternative. So, I think it's probable that God exists.
This is awesome I agree it is all about time or the lack thereof.
From which come miracles/ phenomenon ...
I have learned some humans who can fathom timeless
and have actually experienced it.
Positively...
You are one smart person, if you don't mind me saying, and I enjoy your posts.
Not to over simplify the issue but I'd say that if the teacher encourages critical thinking and skepticism, that is education but if they dish out information and beliefs as truth without encouraging that kind of thinking, that is brainwashing.
Which method of teaching used most often in religious teaching? That's a rhetorical question. It's also why I personally rejected all religion and choose the simpler beliefs of mystery and wonder.
No offense, Brian... but, I find this post pretty funny.
Let's re-work what you wrote and think about "climate change"... instead of "religion".
To use your words in regards to climate change - If a teacher encourages critical thinking and "SKEPTICISM" that is education, right? If they dish out information and beliefs as truth WITHOUT encouraging that kind of thinking, that is brainwashing.
This is coming from a person who's used the term "DENIER" regarding those who don't completely buy into what global climate change is selling. I mean I was always a person who said - I'm not sure it's real. I don't buy it completely. I build statistical models, like the ones used for climate change, I know they are faulty. I know the data is questionable at best. I know there could be incentives for there to be climate change. It could be real, but it very well may not be. Just like many thought the world was flat, but some questioned that logic.
I don't mean for that to come across as instigating, I'm seriously curious. It appears to me that some here want religious folks to fit into certain rules, but then don't want those same rules to apply to them if it's an issue they feel passionately about.
Seems kinda... hypocritical. That's all.
"Funny", "hypocritical"? I think not. This is not a fair comparison. Climate change/global warming is quantifiable. God/religion is not. :fp: You'll have to try harder than that to pick a feud with me.
Yes, funny and hypocritical - not trying to be offensive, being sincere in that's how it comes across to me... it seems you want education for certain subjects you don't agree with to be open-minded - encourage "skepticism" and "critical thinking", but if they "dish information and beliefs as truth without encouraging that sort of thinking, it's brainwashing" ummm... you're saying that's what should happen for religious teaching, but not for climate change because you say it's quantifiable.
I've already tried to argue that a creator of sorts is quantifiable. You don't go from zero (nothingness - no life whatsoever - no space whatsoever - no time whatsoever) without a trigger or a catalyst or a force that creates 1 (life - space -time). 0+0=0. 0+1=1. It's simple math.
But, regardless, even if you argue that's rubbish, one can argue back that the models used within climate change are poor, the data is flawed and there's reason for these academics to push for a continuation of this phenomenon both for academic publication rewards, notoriety and perhaps most importantly political idealism.... with all that said, if one were to be skeptical and think critically - one should certainly cast doubt on these models and use a critical eye to study these findings.
I know you don't agree with what I mentioned above - and that's totally fine. I get it. But, anyone who touts the term "denier" towards anyone else regarding any subject is not encouraging " skepticism", "critical thinking" .... and is encouraging "dishing out information and beliefs as truth without encouraging that sort of thinking" or in other words - "brainwashing".
It's the equivalent of the religious extremists. Except using a different subject matter.
This is about religion, not climate change. Can we stay away from that here? You know my stance on climate change and to repeat everything I've said about it would be ridiculous. This is just too much like Thread Wars and I'm not in- not today.
Over and out!
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
This is about religion, not climate change. Can we stay away from that here? You know my stance on climate change and to repeat everything I've said about it would be ridiculous. This is just too much like Thread Wars and I'm not in- not today.
Over and out!
That's weak. I was drawing a parallel. A lot of people, me including, think the Climate Change ideology is awful close to a religion. I mean the term "denier" and whatnot are thrown around like it's the dark ages.
Anyway, you're right the threads not about climate change it's about religion. You explained your definition of "brainwashing" and how it applies to religious teaching. I explained back to you that your definition was awful similar to what you advocate for global climate change... I simply wanted you to understand that. Because it's completely and totally true.
This is about religion, not climate change. Can we stay away from that here? You know my stance on climate change and to repeat everything I've said about it would be ridiculous. This is just too much like Thread Wars and I'm not in- not today.
Over and out!
That's weak. I was drawing a parallel. A lot of people, me including, think the Climate Change ideology is awful close to a religion. I mean the term "denier" and whatnot are thrown around like it's the dark ages.
Anyway, you're right the threads not about climate change it's about religion. You explained your definition of "brainwashing" and how it applies to religious teaching. I explained back to you that your definition was awful similar to what you advocate for global climate change... I simply wanted you to understand that. Because it's completely and totally true.
:fp: Ok, one more time: I've read both sides of that issue. Have you? Have you read the links to realclimate.org that I've sent? I've been studying this for probably as many years as you've been alive- both sides. I wish I could say the climate change we are experiencing is just a natural phenomena, that's there's nothing we've done to influence it and that there's nothing we can do to lessen the effects. I REALLY WISH I COULD SAY THAT. Now does THAT sound like brainwashing? I DO practice critical thinking and am skeptical of what I hear but at some point you just have to accept the OVERWHELMING scientific evidence regarding climate change.
Or not, which is your choice. OK, fine. NOW, PLEASE, LET IT GO!
Jackie is a punk, Judy is a runt, blah blah blah, yada yada yada, wheeeeeeee! :fp: :fp: :fp:
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
That's weak. I was drawing a parallel. A lot of people, me including, think the Climate Change ideology is awful close to a religion. I mean the term "denier" and whatnot are thrown around like it's the dark ages.
Anyway, you're right the threads not about climate change it's about religion. You explained your definition of "brainwashing" and how it applies to religious teaching. I explained back to you that your definition was awful similar to what you advocate for global climate change... I simply wanted you to understand that. Because it's completely and totally true.
:fp: Ok, one more time: I've read both sides of that issue. Have you? Have you read the links to realclimate.org that I've sent? I've been studying this for probably as many years as you've been alive- both sides. I wish I could say the climate change we are experiencing is just a natural phenomena, that's there's nothing we've done to influence it and that there's nothing we can do to lessen the effects. I REALLY WISH I COULD SAY THAT. Now does THAT sound like brainwashing? I DO practice critical thinking and am skeptical of what I hear but at some point you just have to accept the OVERWHELMING scientific evidence regarding climate change.
Or not, which is your choice. OK, fine. NOW, PLEASE, LET IT GO!
Jackie is a punk, Judy is a runt, blah blah blah, yada yada yada, wheeeeeeee! :fp: :fp: :fp:
To play devil's advocate and further my point...
Let's say we have a religious person respond to this post - and your earlier thoughts on them all being brainwashed. They could respond to that like (only italics have been changed):
:fp: Ok, one more time: I've read both sides of that issue. Have you? Have you read The Bible multiple times or the other theologian writings? I've been studying this for probably as many years as you've been alive- both sides. I wish I could say God is just a natural phenomena. I REALLY WISH I COULD SAY THAT. Now does THAT sound like brainwashing? I DO practice critical thinking and am skeptical of what I hear but at some point you just have to accept the OVERWHELMING evidence regarding God.
***You don't seem to get it. You're advocating one position (critical thinking, skepticism, etc.) for a position you don't seem to agree with than advocating another (read and agree with the models or you're a denier) for another position you agree with. I'm just pointing it out to you.
This is about religion, not climate change. Can we stay away from that here? You know my stance on climate change and to repeat everything I've said about it would be ridiculous. This is just too much like Thread Wars and I'm not in- not today.
Over and out!
That's weak. I was drawing a parallel. A lot of people, me including, think the Climate Change ideology is awful close to a religion. I mean the term "denier" and whatnot are thrown around like it's the dark ages.
Anyway, you're right the threads not about climate change it's about religion. You explained your definition of "brainwashing" and how it applies to religious teaching. I explained back to you that your definition was awful similar to what you advocate for global climate change... I simply wanted you to understand that. Because it's completely and totally true.
:fp: Ok, one more time: I've read both sides of that issue. Have you? Have you read the links to realclimate.org that I've sent? I've been studying this for probably as many years as you've been alive- both sides. I wish I could say the climate change we are experiencing is just a natural phenomena, that's there's nothing we've done to influence it and that there's nothing we can do to lessen the effects. I REALLY WISH I COULD SAY THAT. Now does THAT sound like brainwashing? I DO practice critical thinking and am skeptical of what I hear but at some point you just have to accept the OVERWHELMING scientific evidence regarding climate change.
Or not, which is your choice. OK, fine. NOW, PLEASE, LET IT GO!
Jackie is a punk, Judy is a runt, blah blah blah, yada yada yada, wheeeeeeee! :fp: :fp: :fp:
i think the other main issue here that i don't think has been discussed is this guy is on the house committee on science ... :fp: ... this is why so many people are out to lunch on issues related to stem cells, global warming and health ... guys like that get appointed to positions without the knowledge simply to placate industry and corporations ...
Climate science is now in the hands of this guy...
Are you dismissive of spirituality as well as religion PJ_Soul? I honestly get this negative feel from your posts, as if you are not open minded to much of anything not only religious, but any sort of spirituality.
Nope, I'm all for spirituality, and am accepting of it in all forms. Too bad that's how I'm coming off because that's not how I am at all (in another post I talked about being perfect open to the connection between loving things, maybe an after life of some kind, the beauty of the world and how amazing the human imagination is... etc. And i feel a very deep connection with nature, and solidly believe in soul mates (both romantic and non-romantic). Maybe you missed that post? Perhaps it's my tendency to be very blunt that is throwing you? I assure you, I'm not negative. I think those who know me would say I'm one of the happiest and positive people they know. I was in an rely bad mood today though, due to some people being idiots at work. .. maybe that was just translating into my posts.
I do indeed, however, have an extremely negative view of organized religion. I do understand all the good that can stem from it, but that is nothing compared to what I think is negativese about it. There is a reason, though, why I always specifically say "organized religion" as opposed to just "religion".
I must have missed that post. And we all have bad days...
How do you feel about the Earth? Paganism may be an organized religion, but it's rooted in nature, and the one I tend to gravitate to (as well as Buddhism) even though I'm against organized religion myself. I don't think you should group all religions as cults though. I've done papers about cults and the classic trait that separates them from organized religions is that members are not allowed to freely leave in cults, nor are members allowed to even communicate with the outside world. It's a huge difference in definitions of the two.
I dig the Earth. I find that even paganism attributes nature to a higher intelligence, which I don't go for. But nature itself turns my crank.
I disagree with that definition of cult. What about Scientology? That's certainly a cult, and they aren't cut off from the world. Lots of cults aren't cut off from the world. The only reason those criteria are attributed to cults is because those are the cults that draw attention... the ones that aren't mainstream. I think that people have simply stopped thinking of organized churches as cults because they're ubiquitous. I know that most people don't think of, say, the Catholic Church as a cult because everyone is so used to it ... I do see it as a cult though. A particularly corrupt and hypocritical one. Sorry to the Catholics here, but that's how I feel about the Catholic Church. The CHURCH. Not about regular individual Catholics, but the Church as an organization. Kind of like how I despise Wal-Mart, but not necessarily the cashiers who work there or the people who shop there.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Nope, I'm all for spirituality, and am accepting of it in all forms. Too bad that's how I'm coming off because that's not how I am at all (in another post I talked about being perfect open to the connection between loving things, maybe an after life of some kind, the beauty of the world and how amazing the human imagination is... etc. And i feel a very deep connection with nature, and solidly believe in soul mates (both romantic and non-romantic). Maybe you missed that post? Perhaps it's my tendency to be very blunt that is throwing you? I assure you, I'm not negative. I think those who know me would say I'm one of the happiest and positive people they know. I was in an rely bad mood today though, due to some people being idiots at work. .. maybe that was just translating into my posts.
I do indeed, however, have an extremely negative view of organized religion. I do understand all the good that can stem from it, but that is nothing compared to what I think is negativese about it. There is a reason, though, why I always specifically say "organized religion" as opposed to just "religion".
I must have missed that post. And we all have bad days...
How do you feel about the Earth? Paganism may be an organized religion, but it's rooted in nature, and the one I tend to gravitate to (as well as Buddhism) even though I'm against organized religion myself. I don't think you should group all religions as cults though. I've done papers about cults and the classic trait that separates them from organized religions is that members are not allowed to freely leave in cults, nor are members allowed to even communicate with the outside world. It's a huge difference in definitions of the two.
I dig the Earth. I find that even paganism attributes nature to a higher intelligence, which I don't go for. But nature itself turns my crank.
I disagree with that definition of cult. What about Scientology? That's certainly a cult, and they aren't cut off from the world. Lots of cults aren't cut off from the world. The only reason those criteria are attributed to cults is because those are the cults that draw attention... the ones that aren't mainstream. I think that people have simply stopped thinking of organized churches as cults because they're ubiquitous. I know that most people don't think of, say, the Catholic Church as a cult because everyone is so used to it ... I do see it as a cult though. A particularly corrupt and hypocritical one. Sorry to the Catholics here, but that's how I feel about the Catholic Church. The CHURCH. Not about regular individual Catholics, but the Church as an organization. Kind of like how I despise Wal-Mart, but not necessarily the cashiers who work there or the people who shop there.
Religions are not cults in the classic definition though, sorry. I don't know anything about Scientology, but from looking at Tom Cruise, he's not being held captive in the church compound and kept from communicating to family who are not Scientology members. Organized religions that are large and widespread in the world are NOT cults. You can't possibly continue to believe this when it's misinformation. Look it up.
Just to set the record straight... whenever I use the term, 'God'... I use it because of the lack of a better term. I do not prescribe to the description of God as the Bible and related holy texts refer. My opinion being, those texts were written by Man... who attached human traits to God in order to connect Man with God and set up some sort of relationship bond.
That's why the God of the Bible can be kind of a dick at times. It's not God being a dick... it's more like Man creating the dickishness that is part of Man.
...
To me, "God" is... something. I don't know, call it Nature or Time/Space or The Force or whatever you want... but, it is something that is beyond our current comprehension... in this current space... at this current time... in this current level is existance. Perhaps when we are unbounded from these chains of this physical universe, we'll get a full understanding. But, in the big picture, Man is nothing more than a highly evolved ape that resides on a tiny blue rock... circling a mediocre star in an average galaxy... that exists on this level of consciousness. That why I believe we cannot comprehend what the nature of God truely is.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Just to set the record straight... whenever I use the term, 'God'... I use it because of the lack of a better term. I do not prescribe to the description of God as the Bible and related holy texts refer. My opinion being, those texts were written by Man... who attached human traits to God in order to connect Man with God and set up some sort of relationship bond.
That's why the God of the Bible can be kind of a dick at times. It's not God being a dick... it's more like Man creating the dickishness that is part of Man.
...
To me, "God" is... something. I don't know, call it Nature or Time/Space or The Force or whatever you want... but, it is something that is beyond our current comprehension... in this current space... at this current time... in this current level is existance. Perhaps when we are unbounded from these chains of this physical universe, we'll get a full understanding. But, in the big picture, Man is nothing more than a highly evolved ape that resides on a tiny blue rock... circling a mediocre star in an average galaxy... that exists on this level of consciousness. That why I believe we cannot comprehend what the nature of God truely is.
I think that the only real requirement for anything that someone calls "God" is that it's an entity of some sort that intelligently and purposefully affects the world and/or the universe. After that, it's just random details.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I think that the only real requirement for anything that someone calls "God" is that it's an entity of some sort that intelligently and purposefully affects the world and/or the universe. After that, it's just random details.
...
I don't know about intelligently and purposefully... that where Man attaches his spin on God.
I'm thinking more along the lines of God setting things in motion and letting it play out, without any purpose. That's why we are all going to vaporize one day when Nature slates us for extinction... when the nature of the universe extingushes our Sun. All we ever were is going to eventually vanish. Is there intelligence in that? Maybe. Maybe we just don't understand it.
I think it is Man's arrogance to set himself at the center of God's focus. Step outside of ourselves and look at the greater picture... of Earth's place in the Universe and the physiology of Man. In this unimaginable vastness of the universe, with the endless number of possibilities... and God chooses to favor a planet of road building apes. I don't know... doesn't seem to make a lot of sense.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Difference between a cult and a religion is the number of members.
Exactly... which isn't a legitimate difference at all. Sorry Jeanwah, the so-called definition of cult just seems like a smoke-screen to me.
Think what you want, but you're clearly wrong. Why the "no other possible definition but what you want it to be"? Why so closed-minded about this? It doesn't change your opinion, just the fact that organized religions are classically NOT cults. Big deal!
I think that the only real requirement for anything that someone calls "God" is that it's an entity of some sort that intelligently and purposefully affects the world and/or the universe. After that, it's just random details.
...
I don't know about intelligently and purposefully... that where Man attaches his spin on God.
I'm thinking more along the lines of God setting things in motion and letting it play out, without any purpose. That's why we are all going to vaporize one day when Nature slates us for extinction... when the nature of the universe extingushes our Sun. All we ever were is going to eventually vanish. Is there intelligence in that? Maybe. Maybe we just don't understand it.
I think it is Man's arrogance to set himself at the center of God's focus. Step outside of ourselves and look at the greater picture... of Earth's place in the Universe and the physiology of Man. In this unimaginable vastness of the universe, with the endless number of possibilities... and God chooses to favor a planet of road building apes. I don't know... doesn't seem to make a lot of sense.
What I meant was that once there is no intelligent purpose, it's just not God anymore. God doesn't mean just anything you can come up with including nature. For God to be God, it needs to have intelligent purpose, and if you are conceiving something that lacks that, then you aren't conceiving God at all. Otherwise, we can call anything anything. We can call tree "door", we can call paper "apple", and we can call Pearl Jam "Water Slides".
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
What I meant was that once there is no intelligent purpose, it's just not God anymore. God doesn't mean just anything you can come up with including nature. For God to be God, it needs to have intelligent purpose, and if you are conceiving something that lacks that, then you aren't conceiving God at all. Otherwise, we can call anything anything. We can call tree "door", we can call paper "apple", and we can call Pearl Jam "Water Slides".
...
Okay... what do I call it, then?
I'm just tagging a term for the sake of this discussion that people can relate to when I'm referencing this... thing... that I can't comprehend, let alone, explain. I mean, could use the term, 'the thing that I can't comprehend, let alone, explain'... but, G-o-d is much easier for a lazy sot as myself.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
What I meant was that once there is no intelligent purpose, it's just not God anymore. God doesn't mean just anything you can come up with including nature. For God to be God, it needs to have intelligent purpose, and if you are conceiving something that lacks that, then you aren't conceiving God at all. Otherwise, we can call anything anything. We can call tree "door", we can call paper "apple", and we can call Pearl Jam "Water Slides".
...
Okay... what do I call it, then?
I'm just tagging a term for the sake of this discussion that people can relate to when I'm referencing this... thing... that I can't comprehend, let alone, explain. I mean, could use the term, 'the thing that I can't comprehend, let alone, explain'... but, G-o-d is much easier for a lazy sot as myself.
I call nature "Nature". Nature can cover all sorts of cool shit, including a non-intelligent, non-purposeful connection between living thing, conceivably. I think Nature is a powerful thing - the word is more than adequate IMHO.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
What I meant was that once there is no intelligent purpose, it's just not God anymore. God doesn't mean just anything you can come up with including nature. For God to be God, it needs to have intelligent purpose, and if you are conceiving something that lacks that, then you aren't conceiving God at all. Otherwise, we can call anything anything. We can call tree "door", we can call paper "apple", and we can call Pearl Jam "Water Slides".
...
Okay... what do I call it, then?
I'm just tagging a term for the sake of this discussion that people can relate to when I'm referencing this... thing... that I can't comprehend, let alone, explain. I mean, could use the term, 'the thing that I can't comprehend, let alone, explain'... but, G-o-d is much easier for a lazy sot as myself.
I think one could use the word - the origin. I get you though, God's the entity that set it all in motion.
When I was a kid, I do remembering reading the bible and stumbling on the part - 'I am, who am'. I thought that was profound. It doesn't really answer the question other than - look around, he/she/it/the origin/God's everywhere.
Have you read The Bible multiple times or the other theologian writings? I DO practice critical thinking and am skeptical of what I hear but at some point you just have to accept the OVERWHELMING evidence regarding God.
***You don't seem to get it. You're advocating one position (critical thinking, skepticism, etc.) for a position you don't seem to agree with than advocating another (read and agree with the models or you're a denier) for another position you agree with. I'm just pointing it out to you.
Yes, I've read the entire Bible (NIV). Deuteronomy and Numbers: proof that man wrote the Bible. Song of Solomaon: prove that "love and only love will endure", nowhere, proof that humans are not the major cause of current climate change. Other theological writings? Yes, many major works on many religions. Even Martin Buber- challenging stuff!
Overwhelming evidence of the existence of God? Sure- but which one?
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
Have you read The Bible multiple times or the other theologian writings? I DO practice critical thinking and am skeptical of what I hear but at some point you just have to accept the OVERWHELMING evidence regarding God.
***You don't seem to get it. You're advocating one position (critical thinking, skepticism, etc.) for a position you don't seem to agree with than advocating another (read and agree with the models or you're a denier) for another position you agree with. I'm just pointing it out to you.
Yes, I've read the entire Bible (NIV). Deuteronomy and Numbers: proof that man wrote the Bible. Song of Solomaon: prove that "love and only love will endure", nowhere, proof that humans are not the major cause of current climate change. Other theological writings? Yes, many major works on many religions. Even Martin Buber- challenging stuff!
Overwhelming evidence of the existence of God? Sure- but which one?
:?: :?: :?:
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
What I meant was that once there is no intelligent purpose, it's just not God anymore. God doesn't mean just anything you can come up with including nature. For God to be God, it needs to have intelligent purpose, and if you are conceiving something that lacks that, then you aren't conceiving God at all. Otherwise, we can call anything anything. We can call tree "door", we can call paper "apple", and we can call Pearl Jam "Water Slides".
...
Okay... what do I call it, then?
I'm just tagging a term for the sake of this discussion that people can relate to when I'm referencing this... thing... that I can't comprehend, let alone, explain. I mean, could use the term, 'the thing that I can't comprehend, let alone, explain'... but, G-o-d is much easier for a lazy sot as myself.
I think one could use the word - the origin. I get you though, God's the entity that set it all in motion.
When I was a kid, I do remembering reading the bible and stumbling on the part - 'I am, who am'. I thought that was profound. It doesn't really answer the question other than - look around, he/she/it/the origin/God's everywhere.
Who or what set god in motion?
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win ."
I think one could use the word - the origin. I get you though, God's the entity that set it all in motion.
When I was a kid, I do remembering reading the bible and stumbling on the part - 'I am, who am'. I thought that was profound. It doesn't really answer the question other than - look around, he/she/it/the origin/God's everywhere.
Who or what set god in motion?
Our minds are really limited in what we can grasp, even to imagine infinite
and eternity. We want to give everything a space and time. But there is none. It repeats,
both space and time like a ball rolling. Who or what got God rolling? Who or what
created the expanding universe? If there is no time no space can God not have existed always
everywhere? I feel God everywhere all the time...
Just to set the record straight... whenever I use the term, 'God'... I use it because of the lack of a better term. I do not prescribe to the description of God as the Bible and related holy texts refer. My opinion being, those texts were written by Man... who attached human traits to God in order to connect Man with God and set up some sort of relationship bond.
That's why the God of the Bible can be kind of a dick at times. It's not God being a dick... it's more like Man creating the dickishness that is part of Man...
yes it would seem mankind has written God in his own imagine... flaws and all.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
...
Maybe... It was always in motion. Something our physics bound logic in incapable of processing.
There is the theory that, in order for the mathematical equations to be correct, says there are multiple universes (multiverse) where everything is passed on from one universe to another. As our universe, for example, expands as the dark energy pushes matter apart, it will flow into the next universe. All of that will create a 'big bang' event as our universe contorts and touches the adjacent universe.
It's weird shit that doesn't make sense to most of us... but there are these theorists that come up with equations to figure out things. These equations came about when trying to merge quantum mechanics with general relativity. Once the equations came about... it becomes a matter of explaining the results.
....
Again... I revert to my belief that there are just those things that cannot be explained using the laws of nature we are accustomed to. And really, who knows for sure? My guess is nobody living on this planet, at this time... of this species. Maybe my cat knows the answers, but just cannot communicate them to me.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
yes it would seem mankind has written God in his own imagine... flaws and all.
...
God of the Bible is a dick sometimes... because Man is a dick sometimes. If God wrote the Bible, thing would be different. He didn't... that's why He is portrayed with human characteristics and traits.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
...
Maybe... It was always in motion. Something our physics bound logic in incapable of processing.
There is the theory that, in order for the mathematical equations to be correct, says there are multiple universes (multiverse) where everything is passed on from one universe to another. As our universe, for example, expands as the dark energy pushes matter apart, it will flow into the next universe. All of that will create a 'big bang' event as our universe contorts and touches the adjacent universe.
It's weird shit that doesn't make sense to most of us... but there are these theorists that come up with equations to figure out things. These equations came about when trying to merge quantum mechanics with general relativity. Once the equations came about... it becomes a matter of explaining the results.
....
Again... I revert to my belief that there are just those things that cannot be explained using the laws of nature we are accustomed to. And really, who knows for sure? My guess is nobody living on this planet, at this time... of this species. Maybe my cat knows the answers, but just cannot communicate them to me.
afterall he/shes manages to have you at his/her beck and call taking care of his/her every whim and need.who has domesticated who i wonder.dogs too.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Comments
I must have missed that post. And we all have bad days...
How do you feel about the Earth? Paganism may be an organized religion, but it's rooted in nature, and the one I tend to gravitate to (as well as Buddhism) even though I'm against organized religion myself. I don't think you should group all religions as cults though. I've done papers about cults and the classic trait that separates them from organized religions is that members are not allowed to freely leave in cults, nor are members allowed to even communicate with the outside world. It's a huge difference in definitions of the two.
From which come miracles/ phenomenon ...
I have learned some humans who can fathom timeless
and have actually experienced it.
Positively...
You are one smart person, if you don't mind me saying, and I enjoy your posts.
Yes, funny and hypocritical - not trying to be offensive, being sincere in that's how it comes across to me... it seems you want education for certain subjects you don't agree with to be open-minded - encourage "skepticism" and "critical thinking", but if they "dish information and beliefs as truth without encouraging that sort of thinking, it's brainwashing" ummm... you're saying that's what should happen for religious teaching, but not for climate change because you say it's quantifiable.
I've already tried to argue that a creator of sorts is quantifiable. You don't go from zero (nothingness - no life whatsoever - no space whatsoever - no time whatsoever) without a trigger or a catalyst or a force that creates 1 (life - space -time). 0+0=0. 0+1=1. It's simple math.
But, regardless, even if you argue that's rubbish, one can argue back that the models used within climate change are poor, the data is flawed and there's reason for these academics to push for a continuation of this phenomenon both for academic publication rewards, notoriety and perhaps most importantly political idealism.... with all that said, if one were to be skeptical and think critically - one should certainly cast doubt on these models and use a critical eye to study these findings.
I know you don't agree with what I mentioned above - and that's totally fine. I get it. But, anyone who touts the term "denier" towards anyone else regarding any subject is not encouraging " skepticism", "critical thinking" .... and is encouraging "dishing out information and beliefs as truth without encouraging that sort of thinking" or in other words - "brainwashing".
It's the equivalent of the religious extremists. Except using a different subject matter.
<object height="81" width="100%"> <param name="movie" value="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869"></param> <param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param> <embed allowscriptaccess="always" height="81" src="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="100%"></embed> </object> <span><a href=" - In the Fire (demo)</a> by <a href="
OK, now who's being funny?
This is about religion, not climate change. Can we stay away from that here? You know my stance on climate change and to repeat everything I've said about it would be ridiculous. This is just too much like Thread Wars and I'm not in- not today.
Over and out!
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
That's weak. I was drawing a parallel. A lot of people, me including, think the Climate Change ideology is awful close to a religion. I mean the term "denier" and whatnot are thrown around like it's the dark ages.
Anyway, you're right the threads not about climate change it's about religion. You explained your definition of "brainwashing" and how it applies to religious teaching. I explained back to you that your definition was awful similar to what you advocate for global climate change... I simply wanted you to understand that. Because it's completely and totally true.
<object height="81" width="100%"> <param name="movie" value="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869"></param> <param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param> <embed allowscriptaccess="always" height="81" src="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="100%"></embed> </object> <span><a href=" - In the Fire (demo)</a> by <a href="
:fp: Ok, one more time: I've read both sides of that issue. Have you? Have you read the links to realclimate.org that I've sent? I've been studying this for probably as many years as you've been alive- both sides. I wish I could say the climate change we are experiencing is just a natural phenomena, that's there's nothing we've done to influence it and that there's nothing we can do to lessen the effects. I REALLY WISH I COULD SAY THAT. Now does THAT sound like brainwashing? I DO practice critical thinking and am skeptical of what I hear but at some point you just have to accept the OVERWHELMING scientific evidence regarding climate change.
Or not, which is your choice. OK, fine. NOW, PLEASE, LET IT GO!
Jackie is a punk, Judy is a runt, blah blah blah, yada yada yada, wheeeeeeee! :fp: :fp: :fp:
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
To play devil's advocate and further my point...
Let's say we have a religious person respond to this post - and your earlier thoughts on them all being brainwashed. They could respond to that like (only italics have been changed):
:fp: Ok, one more time: I've read both sides of that issue. Have you? Have you read The Bible multiple times or the other theologian writings? I've been studying this for probably as many years as you've been alive- both sides. I wish I could say God is just a natural phenomena. I REALLY WISH I COULD SAY THAT. Now does THAT sound like brainwashing? I DO practice critical thinking and am skeptical of what I hear but at some point you just have to accept the OVERWHELMING evidence regarding God.
***You don't seem to get it. You're advocating one position (critical thinking, skepticism, etc.) for a position you don't seem to agree with than advocating another (read and agree with the models or you're a denier) for another position you agree with. I'm just pointing it out to you.
<object height="81" width="100%"> <param name="movie" value="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869"></param> <param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param> <embed allowscriptaccess="always" height="81" src="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="100%"></embed> </object> <span><a href=" - In the Fire (demo)</a> by <a href="
From the Akin thread... Climate science is now in the hands of this guy...
I disagree with that definition of cult. What about Scientology? That's certainly a cult, and they aren't cut off from the world. Lots of cults aren't cut off from the world. The only reason those criteria are attributed to cults is because those are the cults that draw attention... the ones that aren't mainstream. I think that people have simply stopped thinking of organized churches as cults because they're ubiquitous. I know that most people don't think of, say, the Catholic Church as a cult because everyone is so used to it ... I do see it as a cult though. A particularly corrupt and hypocritical one. Sorry to the Catholics here, but that's how I feel about the Catholic Church. The CHURCH. Not about regular individual Catholics, but the Church as an organization. Kind of like how I despise Wal-Mart, but not necessarily the cashiers who work there or the people who shop there.
Religions are not cults in the classic definition though, sorry. I don't know anything about Scientology, but from looking at Tom Cruise, he's not being held captive in the church compound and kept from communicating to family who are not Scientology members. Organized religions that are large and widespread in the world are NOT cults. You can't possibly continue to believe this when it's misinformation. Look it up.
That's why the God of the Bible can be kind of a dick at times. It's not God being a dick... it's more like Man creating the dickishness that is part of Man.
...
To me, "God" is... something. I don't know, call it Nature or Time/Space or The Force or whatever you want... but, it is something that is beyond our current comprehension... in this current space... at this current time... in this current level is existance. Perhaps when we are unbounded from these chains of this physical universe, we'll get a full understanding. But, in the big picture, Man is nothing more than a highly evolved ape that resides on a tiny blue rock... circling a mediocre star in an average galaxy... that exists on this level of consciousness. That why I believe we cannot comprehend what the nature of God truely is.
Hail, Hail!!!
I don't know about intelligently and purposefully... that where Man attaches his spin on God.
I'm thinking more along the lines of God setting things in motion and letting it play out, without any purpose. That's why we are all going to vaporize one day when Nature slates us for extinction... when the nature of the universe extingushes our Sun. All we ever were is going to eventually vanish. Is there intelligence in that? Maybe. Maybe we just don't understand it.
I think it is Man's arrogance to set himself at the center of God's focus. Step outside of ourselves and look at the greater picture... of Earth's place in the Universe and the physiology of Man. In this unimaginable vastness of the universe, with the endless number of possibilities... and God chooses to favor a planet of road building apes. I don't know... doesn't seem to make a lot of sense.
Hail, Hail!!!
Think what you want, but you're clearly wrong. Why the "no other possible definition but what you want it to be"? Why so closed-minded about this? It doesn't change your opinion, just the fact that organized religions are classically NOT cults. Big deal!
Okay... what do I call it, then?
I'm just tagging a term for the sake of this discussion that people can relate to when I'm referencing this... thing... that I can't comprehend, let alone, explain. I mean, could use the term, 'the thing that I can't comprehend, let alone, explain'... but, G-o-d is much easier for a lazy sot as myself.
Hail, Hail!!!
I think one could use the word - the origin. I get you though, God's the entity that set it all in motion.
When I was a kid, I do remembering reading the bible and stumbling on the part - 'I am, who am'. I thought that was profound. It doesn't really answer the question other than - look around, he/she/it/the origin/God's everywhere.
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Yes, I've read the entire Bible (NIV). Deuteronomy and Numbers: proof that man wrote the Bible. Song of Solomaon: prove that "love and only love will endure", nowhere, proof that humans are not the major cause of current climate change. Other theological writings? Yes, many major works on many religions. Even Martin Buber- challenging stuff!
Overwhelming evidence of the existence of God? Sure- but which one?
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
Who or what set god in motion?
"With our thoughts we make the world"
and eternity. We want to give everything a space and time. But there is none. It repeats,
both space and time like a ball rolling. Who or what got God rolling? Who or what
created the expanding universe? If there is no time no space can God not have existed always
everywhere? I feel God everywhere all the time...
Pass that doober
yes it would seem mankind has written God in his own imagine... flaws and all.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Maybe... It was always in motion. Something our physics bound logic in incapable of processing.
There is the theory that, in order for the mathematical equations to be correct, says there are multiple universes (multiverse) where everything is passed on from one universe to another. As our universe, for example, expands as the dark energy pushes matter apart, it will flow into the next universe. All of that will create a 'big bang' event as our universe contorts and touches the adjacent universe.
It's weird shit that doesn't make sense to most of us... but there are these theorists that come up with equations to figure out things. These equations came about when trying to merge quantum mechanics with general relativity. Once the equations came about... it becomes a matter of explaining the results.
....
Again... I revert to my belief that there are just those things that cannot be explained using the laws of nature we are accustomed to. And really, who knows for sure? My guess is nobody living on this planet, at this time... of this species. Maybe my cat knows the answers, but just cannot communicate them to me.
Hail, Hail!!!
God of the Bible is a dick sometimes... because Man is a dick sometimes. If God wrote the Bible, thing would be different. He didn't... that's why He is portrayed with human characteristics and traits.
Hail, Hail!!!
afterall he/shes manages to have you at his/her beck and call taking care of his/her every whim and need.who has domesticated who i wonder.dogs too.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say