...
Good question.
I would go with, yeah... I'd like to think there is some sort of reasoning for my existance other than to just occupy this little spinning blue rock for a flash in time. I would like to think that at some point... I'd KNOW the truth... instead of believing in the existance of truth.
Personally... my belief is that religion has God all wrong. Religion created God to fit religion... that's the reason why God was made in Man's image... because Man created God to fit Man's needs. I like to think that God is much better than the way religion paints Him.
If there is no God... well, that's okay, too. I try to live for today and do what I can. Love and loved... I can deal with that.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
...
Good question.
I would go with, yeah... I'd like to think there is some sort of reasoning for my existance other than to just occupy this little spinning blue rock for a flash in time. I would like to think that at some point... I'd KNOW the truth... instead of believing in the existance of truth.
Personally... my belief is that religion has God all wrong. Religion created God to fit religion... that's the reason why God was made in Man's image... because Man created God to fit Man's needs. I like to think that God is much better than the way religion paints Him.
If there is no God... well, that's okay, too. I try to live for today and do what I can. Love and loved... I can deal with that.
so you think that without the existence of God, life has no meaning? that somehow all we humans have a reason for existing other than just existing and that the existence of God will legitimise that existence??
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
I think you said this before Cosmo... How about a good 'ol "I don't know"? How about just being open to the possibility that God exists, while also being open to the possibility that perhaps it doesn't.
And is having a firm belief either way really that important in the grand scale of things?
I just can't say "I don't know" about it. I don't think the existence of God is a possibility. I'm not willing to entertain otherwise. I just can't. If I did, I'd be lying to myself. I am NOT open to the idea that God exists, and don't see why I should be. Again, that would absolutely be the same as me being open to the idea that Mork exists. I can't be open to something so blatantly fictional when considering something as important as the human condition and the workings of the universe. To me that is important. I don't think everyone has to feel that it is. And to be clear, I do not think this line of thinking reasonably works both ways. I don't think you can transfer what I've just said to people who do believe in God, because of that burden of proof that Cosmo was talking about.
But I am understanding of those who believe. Believers don't make me mad until they start acting like wing nuts.
It's fine to believe what you want, I just see being so closed is, well, so shut down and zipped up tight. That's all. And it's not just about belief that "God" exists; it extends to believing in the possibility of anything really. It's negative energy. Which is fine, don't get me wrong... we all have that choice to believe in what floats our boat. But by limiting what exists...that attitude carries over into other areas of your life, no?
Oh, actually that's not the case at all. I'm very willing, for example, to entertain the possibility of some kind of an after life, or some sort of a connection between living things, supernatural phenomena, or pretty much anything else, and am a believer in extaterrestial intelligent life too. I just am not open to attributing anything to God. That atheism means necessarily not believing in a bunch of other things is a common misconception.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
so you think that without the existence of God, life has no meaning? that somehow all we humans have a reason for existing other than just existing and that the existence of God will legitimise that existence??
...
Well... when you put it that way... I guess the answer if yes. What makes me different from you or anyone else? Why didn't my level of being come into here as some poor starvng kid in Africa... or my cat... or a blade of grass? All of those possess life, right? How come I hit the jackpot and was born here, instead of the poverty of Somalia? If we are all just life... a form of life... why am i here... now... not occupying the existance of a spider in te field across from my office?
...
Of course... as humans, we pour into our existance what we gather from our lives. That defines our human being and provides meaning to our existance... as humans. But, when speaking of life... it could be any living thing, right?
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
so you think that without the existence of God, life has no meaning? that somehow all we humans have a reason for existing other than just existing and that the existence of God will legitimise that existence??
...
Well... when you put it that way... I guess the answer if yes. What makes me different from you or anyone else? Why didn't my level of being come into here as some poor starvng kid in Africa... or my cat... or a blade of grass? All of those possess life, right? How come I hit the jackpot and was born here, instead of the poverty of Somalia? If we are all just life... a form of life... why am i here... now... not occupying the existance of a spider in te field across from my office?
...
Of course... as humans, we pour into our existance what we gather from our lives. That defines our human being and provides meaning to our existance... as humans. But, when speaking of life... it could be any living thing, right?
aah yes the accident of birth. i often think about this... but not too deeply otherwise my head would explode. but in my quietest moments i wonder where id be now had my ex partners parents decided to return to england from sth africa rather than come here to australia. i know my children, as they are now, wouldnt have been born. perhaps i wouldve given birth to other children, perhaps my life wouldve taken me elsewhere. but what i do know is the decisions i have made have not been made in a vacuum. its all connected, that much i know. we like to think we have free will, and we do.. but only to a certain extent.. and then others free will impedes upon our own and free will ceases to exist to its full extent. and why we are human and not butterflies... thats a question i cant answer. but i do wonder about that theory that says all the matter on earth is here, it can not be added to nor taken away from. and so everything here on earth that ever will be is already here.. just in different form. then of course wonder about meteorites and comets and all those space rocks that crash to earth.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
aah yes the accident of birth. i often think about this... but not too deeply otherwise my head would explode. but in my quietest moments i wonder where id be now had my ex partners parents decided to return to england from sth africa rather than come here to australia. i know my children, as they are now, wouldnt have been born. perhaps i wouldve given birth to other children, perhaps my life wouldve taken me elsewhere. but what i do know is the decisions i have made have not been made in a vacuum. its all connected, that much i know. we like to think we have free will, and we do.. but only to a certain extent.. and then others free will impedes upon our own and free will ceases to exist to its full extent. and why we are human and not butterflies... thats a question i cant answer. but i do wonder about that theory that says all the matter on earth is here, it can not be added to nor taken away from. and so everything here on earth that ever will be is already here.. just in different form. then of course wonder about meteorites and comets and all those space rocks that crash to earth.
...
I suppose I understand the random chaos of the planet. It's not THAT Intelligent of a Design when part of the design has the Sun eventually consuming us all and everything that is and ever was on the planet is gone, right? I suppose some sort of order would be nice... or at least explained to my on why that is.
I know that no one I encounter here on Earth can answer my questions without eventually telling me I must make that leap of faith. Which, to me... is a fucking cop out and a way of saying, "I don't have a clue... but, here's an answer to satisfy you". I don't want an answer... I want THE answer. I don't want some one else's belief... I want the one true truth.
That's why I say no one knows... because no one knows. People have things to comfort them, which is fine. But, i don't want comfort... I want honesty... I want truth.
That's why I suppose it would be nice to know if God exists... to find that order.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
aah yes the accident of birth. i often think about this... but not too deeply otherwise my head would explode. but in my quietest moments i wonder where id be now had my ex partners parents decided to return to england from sth africa rather than come here to australia. i know my children, as they are now, wouldnt have been born. perhaps i wouldve given birth to other children, perhaps my life wouldve taken me elsewhere. but what i do know is the decisions i have made have not been made in a vacuum. its all connected, that much i know. we like to think we have free will, and we do.. but only to a certain extent.. and then others free will impedes upon our own and free will ceases to exist to its full extent. and why we are human and not butterflies... thats a question i cant answer. but i do wonder about that theory that says all the matter on earth is here, it can not be added to nor taken away from. and so everything here on earth that ever will be is already here.. just in different form. then of course wonder about meteorites and comets and all those space rocks that crash to earth.
...
I suppose I understand the random chaos of the planet. It's not THAT Intelligent of a Design when part of the design has the Sun eventually consuming us all and everything that is and ever was on the planet is gone, right? I suppose some sort of order would be nice... or at least explained to my on why that is.
I know that no one I encounter here on Earth can answer my questions without eventually telling me I must make that leap of faith. Which, to me... is a fucking cop out and a way of saying, "I don't have a clue... but, here's an answer to satisfy you". I don't want an answer... I want THE answer. I don't want some one else's belief... I want the one true truth.
That's why I say no one knows... because no one knows. People have things to comfort them, which is fine. But, i don't want comfort... I want honesty... I want truth.
That's why I suppose it would be nice to know if God exists... to find that order.
what if there is no answer. what if all this wondering is just your big brain.. well wondering cause its got nothing better to do? we find ourselves in a very privileged position. we really dont have to worry about shelter, we dont have to worry about catching our food. we turn on the tap and water comes out. we waste an inordinate amount of time on pasttimes(and thinking as it turns out) simply because we want for nothing. every day isnt a test of survival for us cause we are the apex. however drop us in a situation where our survival is an issue and im thinking questions of why we are here would fly out the window. humans are a high order thinker and therefore we think... we think perhaps a little too much... and usually about things that arent of paramount importance to our survival.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
sometimes I'm not totally sure if I even exist at all. (Warning: Matrix geek!)
there IS no point to life, really. other than to enjoy it when it is given to us. But like cate said, what is the percentage of the world that actually enjoys life, as opposed to just survives another sunset? so then the meaning of life actually only exists for about 2% of the world. and even then, it existed for 0 of us for eons, because all we did was survive.
I was an accident. My brother was an accident. My sister was planned. I could easily have been just another used tissue, and my kids would therefore not exist. it's mind boggling to think of the ramifications of one small thing.
i used to think about this shit all the time. then I decided to go back to living. (but it is fun and quite thought-provoking to talk about)
Post edited by Hugh Freaking Dillon on
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
I just can't fathom a god that created a being that is so bent on the unnecessary destruction of its fellow beings.
if he was so disappointed with us when he drowned us all and made noah build the world's biggest boat, why didn't he just create something different instead of trying again? I mean, shouldn't an all knowing god know better?
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
what if there is no answer. what if all this wondering is just your big brain.. well wondering cause its got nothing better to do? we find ourselves in a very privileged position. we really dont have to worry about shelter, we dont have to worry about catching our food. we turn on the tap and water comes out. we waste an inordinate amount of time on pasttimes(and thinking as it turns out) simply because we want for nothing. every day isnt a test of survival for us cause we are the apex. however drop us in a situation where our survival is an issue and im thinking questions of why we are here would fly out the window. humans are a high order thinker and therefore we think... we think perhaps a little too much... and usually about things that arent of paramount importance to our survival.
...
That's probably the answer... there is no answer. And I'll accept that. Just as in math, sometimes the answer is NULL. Sometimes, that's just the way it is. Not a problem.
And it's not a task or a burden or an obsession... more of a case of wonder. As I walk, I think about the ground beneath my feet... moving, spinning, hurtling through space. I look up at the night sky and wonder about the light i'm seeing right now and how old that light is... just getting to my eyes this second... even though it left its origin hundreds of years ago. Just crap like that.
I think we all look for answers... and many of us just feel comfortable with the answers that other people give them... answers that have been handed down through the ages. i'm not like that, I guess. I just can't accept things, just because someone said so. I like to find the 'Whys' in this trip. And I suppose I simply, enjoy the journey I'm on.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
0
brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,426
These recent posts here are great. Very thought provoking. Carry on!
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
And it's not a task or a burden or an obsession... more of a case of wonder. As I walk, I think about the ground beneath my feet... moving, spinning, hurtling through space. I look up at the night sky and wonder about the light i'm seeing right now and how old that light is... just getting to my eyes this second... even though it left its origin hundreds of years ago. Just crap like that.
I think we all look for answers... and many of us just feel comfortable with the answers that other people give them... answers that have been handed down through the ages. i'm not like that, I guess. I just can't accept things, just because someone said so. I like to find the 'Whys' in this trip. And I suppose I simply, enjoy the journey I'm on.
I swear Cosmo, you just described me to a T! :shock:
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
what if there is no answer. what if all this wondering is just your big brain.. well wondering cause its got nothing better to do? we find ourselves in a very privileged position. we really dont have to worry about shelter, we dont have to worry about catching our food. we turn on the tap and water comes out. we waste an inordinate amount of time on pasttimes(and thinking as it turns out) simply because we want for nothing. every day isnt a test of survival for us cause we are the apex. however drop us in a situation where our survival is an issue and im thinking questions of why we are here would fly out the window. humans are a high order thinker and therefore we think... we think perhaps a little too much... and usually about things that arent of paramount importance to our survival.
...
That's probably the answer... there is no answer. And I'll accept that. Just as in math, sometimes the answer is NULL. Sometimes, that's just the way it is. Not a problem.
And it's not a task or a burden or an obsession... more of a case of wonder. As I walk, I think about the ground beneath my feet... moving, spinning, hurtling through space. I look up at the night sky and wonder about the light i'm seeing right now and how old that light is... just getting to my eyes this second... even though it left its origin hundreds of years ago. Just crap like that.
I think we all look for answers... and many of us just feel comfortable with the answers that other people give them... answers that have been handed down through the ages. i'm not like that, I guess. I just can't accept things, just because someone said so. I like to find the 'Whys' in this trip. And I suppose I simply, enjoy the journey I'm on.
I get your points, but sticking to the math theme, I'd ask -
What's the absolute origin?
The big bang doesn't solve it for me at all. Personally, I see the "probability" of a (real force, a real catalyst or God) causing the origin as higher than the alternative - even mathematically. If we're really talking probability and math, you can't create 1 from null, and if you argue you can, you can only do so by a body causing the addition of 1.
I look at life and I believe the reason humans believe in God (or a causal force) is all around us. Men and women have sex and create new life. Person(s) - action - life. Child was not there, but was "created". They don't appear out of nowhere, people/actions cause it. We equate that, magnify the creation of all life to a bigger force (God) and multiply it - beginning of life.
I think the thought of "we don't know", is a silly argument because: of course we don't know. Everyone knows that we don't know. That doesn't mean one can't make bets based on probability as they see it.
I think a more interesting question is really - why do some think the rewards of betting exist? For that, I'm not sure I have an answer - besides religious teaching.
I think it's actually more likely that we wouldn't even understand the answer if we were presented with it. so maybe we do have it after all.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
0
brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,426
I just love the mystery of it all. No pat answers, no formulas, no dogma. Just the intertwining of people, the awesome beauty, and the holy terror of life and the great mystery of all things unseen.
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
I still have two pages of this thread to read, so apologies if I'm jumping the gun, and fuckitall but I feel weary in the soul this morning.
So I'll say that despite my own "I don't know and likely never will" philosophy, faith got my mother in law through three decades of being fucked through and through by cancer.
Faith helped my father overcome some fucked up hate by those who wanted his kind dead because of...well, choose your poison there.
I may not believe as they did, but fuck me if I'll put them down for what helped them through blackness and even just maybe contributed to their decency and being the best parents they could, with what they had - not in the material sense, either. And while I get that "morals" aren't derived from religion itself, the tenets aren't necessarily closeminded and smothering as some may suggest.
I still have two pages of this thread to read, so apologies if I'm jumping the gun, and fuckitall but I feel weary in the soul this morning.
So I'll say that despite my own "I don't know and likely never will" philosophy, faith got my mother in law through three decades of being fucked through and through by cancer.
Faith helped my father overcome some fucked up hate by those who wanted his kind dead because of...well, choose your poison there.
I may not believe as they did, but fuck me if I'll put them down for what helped them through blackness and even just maybe contributed to their decency and being the best parents they could, with what they had - not in the material sense, either. And while I get that "morals" aren't derived from religion itself, the tenets aren't necessarily closeminded and smothering as some may suggest.
Sometimes, good can come from those beliefs.
It's really not all or none.
I would say that most times, good comes from those beliefs. there are bad apples everywhere, religious or not.
my motto is this:
don't blame the religion, blame those who twist it to fit their own agenda.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
I think it's actually more likely that we wouldn't even understand the answer if we were presented with it. so maybe we do have it after all.
That's what I think too. It's just something beyond about comprehension on a scientific level. I mean, humans can't even conceive the existence of infinity in real life... our perceptual scope is pretty limited, to the point where most people can't even seem to think it's possible that something with no beginning is possible... I see no reason to assume that though. Yet that assumption is what a lot of people base their belief on the idea that God has to exist, sooo....
Also, I don't really understand the "why am I here?" thing. Why should there be a reason? I see no reason to assume that we are here for any different reason that any other animal on the planet is here. It's just that we are saddled with brains that allow us to wonder it. Just because we're smart enough to think we're just that special, that there must be a reason behind our existence that goes beyond the natural process of proteins combining and resulting in animal life, doesn't make it so. If anything is arrogant, it's the assumption that we're so fucking important that "God" must behind our existence and that there must be a higher purpose for us. I don't see it. In fact, if anything, human are a blight... was it the guy from the Matrix who said it? That humans are really just a virus? ... :think: I'm not sure he was too far off. Not to say that I don't appreciate existing, or that the human consciousness isn't something that's pretty amazing and capable of some pretty awesome shit, or that our lives don't have value. We are very unique, presumably, and have an amazing ability to be creative and thoughtful and imaginative (and horrible and violent and destructive and downright evil), and that's pretty fucking cool and pretty fucking heinous ... I just don't believe we have value beyond what value we apply to ourselves.
Please don't think I'm morose or anything. I'm not. I'm actually really positive and happy, and appreciate the beautiful things in life; life is precious ... I just think of it on a bigger scale in a very pragmatic way! And I actually find these thoughts of mine quite comforting... while others find belief in God comforting. Go figure. Sorry for rambling.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I still have two pages of this thread to read, so apologies if I'm jumping the gun, and fuckitall but I feel weary in the soul this morning.
So I'll say that despite my own "I don't know and likely never will" philosophy, faith got my mother in law through three decades of being fucked through and through by cancer.
Faith helped my father overcome some fucked up hate by those who wanted his kind dead because of...well, choose your poison there.
I may not believe as they did, but fuck me if I'll put them down for what helped them through blackness and even just maybe contributed to their decency and being the best parents they could, with what they had - not in the material sense, either. And while I get that "morals" aren't derived from religion itself, the tenets aren't necessarily closeminded and smothering as some may suggest.
Since this has been a pretty open discussion, I'll toss out my thoughts on the reality of religion real quick in two parts:
1) I think there is a God, or a spiritual element - call it what you will, that created time and all that's included within it. I see it like this: We, humans live in time. We can't fathom any timeless aspect. Before we are born and when we die we exist outside of time - this is factual from awareness of those who live in time - we aren't there pre-birth and aren't there after death. But, we don't remember (pre-birth or after-death) because remembering is a function of time. God, or this force, exists both in time and outside.... as the origin of time this force would need to exist in both.
I think this is pretty logical and, personally, I see the probability of what I said above is higher than any alternative. So, I think it's probable that God exists.
2) What I have a tougher time grasping is does our actions here and now dictate anything? Religion says it does. Jesus said it did. The Old Testament says they do. Islam says it does. Etc. But, they all do so in different ways with lots of caveats. However there's a central message too. Basically, in various forms, they say what you do on earth impacts your fellow man negatively you're impacting God. Some say you'll be punished, some steer clear of that. I kinda get what they are saying there. But, not sure I buy that punishment in the afterlife aspect (hell to some). I suppose I kinda think Jesus meant you're punishing yourself by doing that negative thing to your neighbor, not that you will be punished in death - but, who knows - it's hard to decipher. Another point, many say if you outright reject God or this notion of God's existence on earth, you're outright rejecting God outside of time. This I don't know, but I get this a bit more. This is also saying actions here and now matter, but in a different way. It's kinda like answering the question: "do you want God to exist? And responding NO repetitively through your life". That makes sense that you're rejecting God afterwards too, but it's confusing. For me, I understand that my point 2) and this paragraph is where it gets trickier. Probabilities get more murky here than in part 1). And also I think this is where the fighting and bickering really takes route.
This is what I was saying before in my last post. There's a distinction between believing in God (or a force of creation) and believing what happens to every single human when we die. It's important to note both 1) and 2) above and not equate them when trying to discuss this stuff.
I still have two pages of this thread to read, so apologies if I'm jumping the gun, and fuckitall but I feel weary in the soul this morning.
So I'll say that despite my own "I don't know and likely never will" philosophy, faith got my mother in law through three decades of being fucked through and through by cancer.
Faith helped my father overcome some fucked up hate by those who wanted his kind dead because of...well, choose your poison there.
I may not believe as they did, but fuck me if I'll put them down for what helped them through blackness and even just maybe contributed to their decency and being the best parents they could, with what they had - not in the material sense, either. And while I get that "morals" aren't derived from religion itself, the tenets aren't necessarily closeminded and smothering as some may suggest.
Sometimes, good can come from those beliefs.
It's really not all or none.
...
I don't speak for everyone... just myself. I say that faith and hope are positive human traits and I'm glad people find comfort in them. If it works for them, great... they have found what they are looking for. I have not. If anyone is looking for answers from me... they ain't finding any.
If Man were trustworthy, then we probably wouldn't need to create a God who is. It's too bad that Man cannot place his faith in Mankind.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
...
I don't speak for everyone... just myself. I say that faith and hope are positive human traits and I'm glad people find comfort in them. If it works for them, great... they have found what they are looking for. I have not. If anyone is looking for answers from me... they ain't finding any.
If Man were trustworthy, then we probably wouldn't need to create a God who is. It's too bad that Man cannot place his faith in Mankind.
Oh, I hear you, and besides within myself, I'm not sure where else I put my faith. I've just grown tired of some who chomp at the bit, waiting to point and shout "See? Stupid believers!"
It's as ugly and hateful as those who twist and distort what I think faith was intended to be - strength and direction for those who need it, for whatever reason. Hate has no place anywhere in that, from the spectrum of devoutness to atheism.
It's funny, I went to look up the lyrics of Mankind after reading your post, but my mind went to Faithfull.
"just be a darling, and I will be too...faithfull to you"
Not about religion necessarily, but about truth of and to oneself.
...
I don't speak for everyone... just myself. I say that faith and hope are positive human traits and I'm glad people find comfort in them. If it works for them, great... they have found what they are looking for. I have not. If anyone is looking for answers from me... they ain't finding any.
If Man were trustworthy, then we probably wouldn't need to create a God who is. It's too bad that Man cannot place his faith in Mankind.
Oh, I hear you, and besides within myself, I'm not sure where else I put my faith. I've just grown tired of some who chomp at the bit, waiting to point and shout "See? Stupid believers!"
It's as ugly and hateful as those who twist and distort what I think faith was intended to be - strength and direction for those who need it, for whatever reason. Hate has no place anywhere in that, from the spectrum of devoutness to atheism.
It's funny, I went to look up the lyrics of Mankind after reading your post, but my mind went to Faithfull.
"just be a darling, and I will be too...faithfull to you"
Not about religion necessarily, but about truth of and to oneself.
I find that a problem arises, though, when "truth" is dictated to people from the youngest age possible... which is often the case when it comes to what people believe in this context... When people are brainwashed to believe something from childhood, is that still truth of and to oneself? I don't think so. And therein lies the main problem.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
...
I don't speak for everyone... just myself. I say that faith and hope are positive human traits and I'm glad people find comfort in them. If it works for them, great... they have found what they are looking for. I have not. If anyone is looking for answers from me... they ain't finding any.
If Man were trustworthy, then we probably wouldn't need to create a God who is. It's too bad that Man cannot place his faith in Mankind.
Oh, I hear you, and besides within myself, I'm not sure where else I put my faith. I've just grown tired of some who chomp at the bit, waiting to point and shout "See? Stupid believers!"
It's as ugly and hateful as those who twist and distort what I think faith was intended to be - strength and direction for those who need it, for whatever reason. Hate has no place anywhere in that, from the spectrum of devoutness to atheism.
It's funny, I went to look up the lyrics of Mankind after reading your post, but my mind went to Faithfull.
"just be a darling, and I will be too...faithfull to you"
Not about religion necessarily, but about truth of and to oneself.
I find that a problem arises, though, when "truth" is dictated to people from the youngest age possible... which is often the case when it comes to what people believe in this context... When people are brainwashed to believe something from childhood, is that still truth of and to oneself? I don't think so. And therein lies the main problem.
Being educated and being brainwashed can easily be confused. Which is which? Is it - if you agree with it, that it's education, and if you disagree is it brainwashing? Think about it.
Being educated and being brainwashed can easily be confused. Which is which? Is it - if you agree with it, that it's education, and if you disagree is it brainwashing? Think about it.
...
I believe the Bible (or Koran or Torah) would make a great subject in education... if it were treated as literature.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
I find that a problem arises, though, when "truth" is dictated to people from the youngest age possible... which is often the case when it comes to what people believe in this context... When people are brainwashed to believe something from childhood, is that still truth of and to oneself? I don't think so. And therein lies the main problem.
Being educated and being brainwashed can easily be confused. Which is which? Is it - if you agree with it, that it's education, and if you disagree is it brainwashing? Think about it.
True - no pun intended . I was raised in a Jewish household, went to temple every Sunday. And yet, I never considered myself brainwashed - just the opposite, in fact, in that I was encouraged to not blindly believe. To think about why I believed, if at all. So, I used to, then I didn't, now I just don't know.
So I turned out OK, I think. Not brainwashed. Pretty true to myself as well.
Being educated and being brainwashed can easily be confused. Which is which? Is it - if you agree with it, that it's education, and if you disagree is it brainwashing? Think about it.
...
I believe the Bible (or Koran or Torah) would make a great subject in education... if it were treated as literature.
excellently put.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Oh, I hear you, and besides within myself, I'm not sure where else I put my faith. I've just grown tired of some who chomp at the bit, waiting to point and shout "See? Stupid believers!"
It's as ugly and hateful as those who twist and distort what I think faith was intended to be - strength and direction for those who need it, for whatever reason. Hate has no place anywhere in that, from the spectrum of devoutness to atheism.
It's funny, I went to look up the lyrics of Mankind after reading your post, but my mind went to Faithfull.
"just be a darling, and I will be too...faithfull to you"
Not about religion necessarily, but about truth of and to oneself.
I find that a problem arises, though, when "truth" is dictated to people from the youngest age possible... which is often the case when it comes to what people believe in this context... When people are brainwashed to believe something from childhood, is that still truth of and to oneself? I don't think so. And therein lies the main problem.
Being educated and being brainwashed can easily be confused. Which is which? Is it - if you agree with it, that it's education, and if you disagree is it brainwashing? Think about it.
I think if it's fact, it's education, if it's religious dogma, it's brainwashing. I don't find the distinction too difficult at all. I personally think that in an ideal world, children wouldn't be taught about religion at all (aside from what is covered in social studies at school), and be left to read about it, study it, ask about, go to church, etc, when they hit the age of 13 or something, when they're old enough to think about what they're hearing critically and make their own determinations. In an ideal world.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Comments
Good question.
I would go with, yeah... I'd like to think there is some sort of reasoning for my existance other than to just occupy this little spinning blue rock for a flash in time. I would like to think that at some point... I'd KNOW the truth... instead of believing in the existance of truth.
Personally... my belief is that religion has God all wrong. Religion created God to fit religion... that's the reason why God was made in Man's image... because Man created God to fit Man's needs. I like to think that God is much better than the way religion paints Him.
If there is no God... well, that's okay, too. I try to live for today and do what I can. Love and loved... I can deal with that.
Hail, Hail!!!
so you think that without the existence of God, life has no meaning? that somehow all we humans have a reason for existing other than just existing and that the existence of God will legitimise that existence??
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Well... when you put it that way... I guess the answer if yes. What makes me different from you or anyone else? Why didn't my level of being come into here as some poor starvng kid in Africa... or my cat... or a blade of grass? All of those possess life, right? How come I hit the jackpot and was born here, instead of the poverty of Somalia? If we are all just life... a form of life... why am i here... now... not occupying the existance of a spider in te field across from my office?
...
Of course... as humans, we pour into our existance what we gather from our lives. That defines our human being and provides meaning to our existance... as humans. But, when speaking of life... it could be any living thing, right?
Hail, Hail!!!
aah yes the accident of birth. i often think about this... but not too deeply otherwise my head would explode. but in my quietest moments i wonder where id be now had my ex partners parents decided to return to england from sth africa rather than come here to australia. i know my children, as they are now, wouldnt have been born. perhaps i wouldve given birth to other children, perhaps my life wouldve taken me elsewhere. but what i do know is the decisions i have made have not been made in a vacuum. its all connected, that much i know. we like to think we have free will, and we do.. but only to a certain extent.. and then others free will impedes upon our own and free will ceases to exist to its full extent. and why we are human and not butterflies... thats a question i cant answer. but i do wonder about that theory that says all the matter on earth is here, it can not be added to nor taken away from. and so everything here on earth that ever will be is already here.. just in different form. then of course wonder about meteorites and comets and all those space rocks that crash to earth.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
I suppose I understand the random chaos of the planet. It's not THAT Intelligent of a Design when part of the design has the Sun eventually consuming us all and everything that is and ever was on the planet is gone, right? I suppose some sort of order would be nice... or at least explained to my on why that is.
I know that no one I encounter here on Earth can answer my questions without eventually telling me I must make that leap of faith. Which, to me... is a fucking cop out and a way of saying, "I don't have a clue... but, here's an answer to satisfy you". I don't want an answer... I want THE answer. I don't want some one else's belief... I want the one true truth.
That's why I say no one knows... because no one knows. People have things to comfort them, which is fine. But, i don't want comfort... I want honesty... I want truth.
That's why I suppose it would be nice to know if God exists... to find that order.
Hail, Hail!!!
what if there is no answer. what if all this wondering is just your big brain.. well wondering cause its got nothing better to do? we find ourselves in a very privileged position. we really dont have to worry about shelter, we dont have to worry about catching our food. we turn on the tap and water comes out. we waste an inordinate amount of time on pasttimes(and thinking as it turns out) simply because we want for nothing. every day isnt a test of survival for us cause we are the apex. however drop us in a situation where our survival is an issue and im thinking questions of why we are here would fly out the window. humans are a high order thinker and therefore we think... we think perhaps a little too much... and usually about things that arent of paramount importance to our survival.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
there IS no point to life, really. other than to enjoy it when it is given to us. But like cate said, what is the percentage of the world that actually enjoys life, as opposed to just survives another sunset? so then the meaning of life actually only exists for about 2% of the world. and even then, it existed for 0 of us for eons, because all we did was survive.
I was an accident. My brother was an accident. My sister was planned. I could easily have been just another used tissue, and my kids would therefore not exist. it's mind boggling to think of the ramifications of one small thing.
i used to think about this shit all the time. then I decided to go back to living.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
if he was so disappointed with us when he drowned us all and made noah build the world's biggest boat, why didn't he just create something different instead of trying again? I mean, shouldn't an all knowing god know better?
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
That's probably the answer... there is no answer. And I'll accept that. Just as in math, sometimes the answer is NULL. Sometimes, that's just the way it is. Not a problem.
And it's not a task or a burden or an obsession... more of a case of wonder. As I walk, I think about the ground beneath my feet... moving, spinning, hurtling through space. I look up at the night sky and wonder about the light i'm seeing right now and how old that light is... just getting to my eyes this second... even though it left its origin hundreds of years ago. Just crap like that.
I think we all look for answers... and many of us just feel comfortable with the answers that other people give them... answers that have been handed down through the ages. i'm not like that, I guess. I just can't accept things, just because someone said so. I like to find the 'Whys' in this trip. And I suppose I simply, enjoy the journey I'm on.
Hail, Hail!!!
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
I swear Cosmo, you just described me to a T! :shock:
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
I get your points, but sticking to the math theme, I'd ask -
What's the absolute origin?
The big bang doesn't solve it for me at all. Personally, I see the "probability" of a (real force, a real catalyst or God) causing the origin as higher than the alternative - even mathematically. If we're really talking probability and math, you can't create 1 from null, and if you argue you can, you can only do so by a body causing the addition of 1.
I look at life and I believe the reason humans believe in God (or a causal force) is all around us. Men and women have sex and create new life. Person(s) - action - life. Child was not there, but was "created". They don't appear out of nowhere, people/actions cause it. We equate that, magnify the creation of all life to a bigger force (God) and multiply it - beginning of life.
I think the thought of "we don't know", is a silly argument because: of course we don't know. Everyone knows that we don't know. That doesn't mean one can't make bets based on probability as they see it.
I think a more interesting question is really - why do some think the rewards of betting exist? For that, I'm not sure I have an answer - besides religious teaching.
<object height="81" width="100%"> <param name="movie" value="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869"></param> <param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param> <embed allowscriptaccess="always" height="81" src="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="100%"></embed> </object> <span><a href=" - In the Fire (demo)</a> by <a href="
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
So I'll say that despite my own "I don't know and likely never will" philosophy, faith got my mother in law through three decades of being fucked through and through by cancer.
Faith helped my father overcome some fucked up hate by those who wanted his kind dead because of...well, choose your poison there.
I may not believe as they did, but fuck me if I'll put them down for what helped them through blackness and even just maybe contributed to their decency and being the best parents they could, with what they had - not in the material sense, either. And while I get that "morals" aren't derived from religion itself, the tenets aren't necessarily closeminded and smothering as some may suggest.
Sometimes, good can come from those beliefs.
It's really not all or none.
I would say that most times, good comes from those beliefs. there are bad apples everywhere, religious or not.
my motto is this:
don't blame the religion, blame those who twist it to fit their own agenda.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Also, I don't really understand the "why am I here?" thing. Why should there be a reason? I see no reason to assume that we are here for any different reason that any other animal on the planet is here. It's just that we are saddled with brains that allow us to wonder it. Just because we're smart enough to think we're just that special, that there must be a reason behind our existence that goes beyond the natural process of proteins combining and resulting in animal life, doesn't make it so. If anything is arrogant, it's the assumption that we're so fucking important that "God" must behind our existence and that there must be a higher purpose for us. I don't see it. In fact, if anything, human are a blight... was it the guy from the Matrix who said it? That humans are really just a virus?
Please don't think I'm morose or anything.
Yep. Great post.
<object height="81" width="100%"> <param name="movie" value="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869"></param> <param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param> <embed allowscriptaccess="always" height="81" src="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="100%"></embed> </object> <span><a href=" - In the Fire (demo)</a> by <a href="
And, I do agree with the last part.
Damned agendas - though I suspect we all have them, most are content to keep them as "our own", and not attempt to foist them on others.
1) I think there is a God, or a spiritual element - call it what you will, that created time and all that's included within it. I see it like this: We, humans live in time. We can't fathom any timeless aspect. Before we are born and when we die we exist outside of time - this is factual from awareness of those who live in time - we aren't there pre-birth and aren't there after death. But, we don't remember (pre-birth or after-death) because remembering is a function of time. God, or this force, exists both in time and outside.... as the origin of time this force would need to exist in both.
I think this is pretty logical and, personally, I see the probability of what I said above is higher than any alternative. So, I think it's probable that God exists.
2) What I have a tougher time grasping is does our actions here and now dictate anything? Religion says it does. Jesus said it did. The Old Testament says they do. Islam says it does. Etc. But, they all do so in different ways with lots of caveats. However there's a central message too. Basically, in various forms, they say what you do on earth impacts your fellow man negatively you're impacting God. Some say you'll be punished, some steer clear of that. I kinda get what they are saying there. But, not sure I buy that punishment in the afterlife aspect (hell to some). I suppose I kinda think Jesus meant you're punishing yourself by doing that negative thing to your neighbor, not that you will be punished in death - but, who knows - it's hard to decipher. Another point, many say if you outright reject God or this notion of God's existence on earth, you're outright rejecting God outside of time. This I don't know, but I get this a bit more. This is also saying actions here and now matter, but in a different way. It's kinda like answering the question: "do you want God to exist? And responding NO repetitively through your life". That makes sense that you're rejecting God afterwards too, but it's confusing. For me, I understand that my point 2) and this paragraph is where it gets trickier. Probabilities get more murky here than in part 1). And also I think this is where the fighting and bickering really takes route.
This is what I was saying before in my last post. There's a distinction between believing in God (or a force of creation) and believing what happens to every single human when we die. It's important to note both 1) and 2) above and not equate them when trying to discuss this stuff.
<object height="81" width="100%"> <param name="movie" value="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869"></param> <param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param> <embed allowscriptaccess="always" height="81" src="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="100%"></embed> </object> <span><a href=" - In the Fire (demo)</a> by <a href="
I don't speak for everyone... just myself. I say that faith and hope are positive human traits and I'm glad people find comfort in them. If it works for them, great... they have found what they are looking for. I have not. If anyone is looking for answers from me... they ain't finding any.
If Man were trustworthy, then we probably wouldn't need to create a God who is. It's too bad that Man cannot place his faith in Mankind.
Hail, Hail!!!
It's as ugly and hateful as those who twist and distort what I think faith was intended to be - strength and direction for those who need it, for whatever reason. Hate has no place anywhere in that, from the spectrum of devoutness to atheism.
It's funny, I went to look up the lyrics of Mankind after reading your post, but my mind went to Faithfull.
"just be a darling, and I will be too...faithfull to you"
Not about religion necessarily, but about truth of and to oneself.
Being educated and being brainwashed can easily be confused. Which is which? Is it - if you agree with it, that it's education, and if you disagree is it brainwashing? Think about it.
<object height="81" width="100%"> <param name="movie" value="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869"></param> <param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param> <embed allowscriptaccess="always" height="81" src="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="100%"></embed> </object> <span><a href=" - In the Fire (demo)</a> by <a href="
I believe the Bible (or Koran or Torah) would make a great subject in education... if it were treated as literature.
Hail, Hail!!!
So I turned out OK, I think. Not brainwashed. Pretty true to myself as well.
excellently put.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014