Religion on the decline around the world

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  • inlet13inlet13 Posts: 1,979
    PJ_Soul wrote:
    I think if it's fact, it's education, if it's religious dogma, it's brainwashing. I don't find the distinction too difficult at all. I personally think that in an ideal world, children wouldn't be taught about religion at all (aside from what is covered in social studies at school), and be left to read about it, study it, ask about, go to church, etc, when they hit the age of 13 or something, when they're old enough to think about what they're hearing critically and make their own determinations. In an ideal world.

    Claims and statistics and even hypotheses are sometimes easily mistaken for facts. For example, we really don't know the origin of the space/life/universe. There are theories, some even with data behind them, but as of now, we don't know. There's a lot to "science" even the majority perhaps - which answers we don't know.

    So, I say just teach everything. Teach facts, as you call them, but also teach opinions. Teach how opinions can sometimes be explained as facts, and how that's wrong. Teach how hypotheses are opinions. Teach how to test hypotheses. IMPORTANT: Teach that the tester can bias the results, so look upon scientific results with a mindful eye. Teach how data itself is important to make points. Teach how data should be used in opinions. Teach - sometimes even data is flawed. Teach - sometimes "we just don't know" YET. There's nothing wrong with not knowing, it's hiding that we don't know that's problematic. We can always try to learn more about that particular problem.

    Anyway, back to the subject - I'd argue that under the scenario you just painted, like going to church and whatnot, its pretty equivalent to what actually occurs. Most people make up their own mind at some point in time. Personally, I think I wasn't mature enough at 13, but to each his or her own. There needs to be no rules or guidelines. Each path is different. Each person is different. Each person's environmental growth setting is different. And they are all OK. There's no right or wrong path. It's whether you get there.
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  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,031
    inlet13 wrote:

    Claims and statistics and even hypotheses are sometimes easily mistaken for facts. For example, we really don't know the origin of the space/life/universe. There are theories, some even with data behind them, but as of now, we don't know. There's a lot to "science" even the majority perhaps - which answers we don't know.

    So, I say just teach everything. Teach facts, as you call them, but also teach opinions. Teach how opinions can sometimes be explained as facts, and how that's wrong. Teach how hypotheses are opinions. Teach how to test hypotheses. IMPORTANT: Teach that the tester can bias the results, so look upon scientific results with a mindful eye. Teach how data itself is important to make points. Teach how data should be used in opinions. Teach - sometimes even data is flawed. Teach - sometimes "we just don't know" YET. There's nothing wrong with not knowing, it's hiding that we don't know that's problematic. We can always try to learn more about that particular problem.

    Anyway, back to the subject - I'd argue that under the scenario you just painted, like going to church and whatnot, its pretty equivalent to what actually occurs. Most people make up their own mind at some point in time. Personally, I think I wasn't mature enough at 13, but to each his or her own. There needs to be no rules or guidelines. Each path is different. Each person is different. Each person's environmental growth setting is different. And they are all OK. There's no right or wrong path. It's whether you get there.
    Yeah yeah yeah, but regular school education and religious teachers are two totally different things. I really don't find them difficult to distinguish at all.
    I don't agree that the picture I painted is what already occurs among religious people at all.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • inlet13inlet13 Posts: 1,979
    PJ_Soul wrote:
    I don't agree that the picture I painted is what already occurs among religious people at all.

    Are you religious?
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  • JonnyPistachioJonnyPistachio Florida Posts: 10,219
    PJ_Soul wrote:
    I think if it's fact, it's education, if it's religious dogma, it's brainwashing. I don't find the distinction too difficult at all. I personally think that in an ideal world, children wouldn't be taught about religion at all (aside from what is covered in social studies at school), and be left to read about it, study it, ask about, go to church, etc, when they hit the age of 13 or something, when they're old enough to think about what they're hearing critically and make their own determinations. In an ideal world.

    These are good questions. I like what you said PJSoul...Is it not the case that most people who are devout in religion are of the same religion of their parents/family? Although I think the term brainwashing might be a bit harsh, I do think that we are often spoonfed ideas as children and expected to believe it. I like the idea of introducing many religions and let children decide for themselves.

    I know that myself and most of my friends were told that Christianity (lutheran and catholic) was what we were. I never decided on that. I was told.

    Go follow up post too, Inlet.
    Pick up my debut novel here on amazon: Jonny Bails Floatin (in paperback) (also available on Kindle for $2.99)
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,031
    inlet13 wrote:

    Are you religious?
    No. I'm an Atheist. I became one after several years of exploring and studying various religions. Why?
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • inlet13inlet13 Posts: 1,979
    PJ_Soul wrote:
    No. I'm an Atheist. I became one after several years of exploring and studying various religions. Why?


    We're discussing that most people make up their own minds - you are saying - religious folks don't.

    I was going to say - how do you know?

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but you said you studied various religions and you chose to be atheist. Did you ever actually really follow a religion enough to be called a "religious person"?

    If "yes", you're living proof that you're wrong.

    If "no", once again, how do you know that these people aren't capable of coming to their own conclusions? You were never one of them by your own admission. This seems really judgmental.
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  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,461
    inlet13 wrote:

    Being educated and being brainwashed can easily be confused. Which is which? Is it - if you agree with it, that it's education, and if you disagree is it brainwashing? Think about it.

    Not to over simplify the issue but I'd say that if the teacher encourages critical thinking and skepticism, that is education but if they dish out information and beliefs as truth without encouraging that kind of thinking, that is brainwashing.

    Which method of teaching used most often in religious teaching? That's a rhetorical question. It's also why I personally rejected all religion and choose the simpler beliefs of mystery and wonder.
    "Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!"
    -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"

    "Try to not spook the horse."
    -Neil Young













  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,031
    inlet13 wrote:


    We're discussing that most people make up their own minds - you are saying - religious folks don't.

    I was going to say - how do you know?

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but you said you studied various religions and you chose to be atheist. Did you ever actually really follow a religion enough to be called a "religious person"?

    If "yes", you're living proof that you're wrong.

    If "no", once again, how do you know that these people aren't capable of coming to their own conclusions? You were never one of them by your own admission. This seems really judgmental.
    No, I didn't. I know that MANY people aren't capable of coming to their own conclusions because I spent so much time around so many of them during my own explorations - I'm talking about entire congregations of people, who are a good example of what is being match among other congregations within the same denomination. It's not a mistake... The churches go out of their way to do it, and are good at what they do. They tried to do it to me too, just as a matter of course. And btw, when I rejected what they were trying to do (brainwash me), they told me I was going to burn in hell and shit. They don't kid around. And I'm talking several different Christian churches (I did NOT have the same kinds of experiences with Islamists, although I did did some exploring with Sikhism, and it really wasn't much different in this context, but they were more careful and less obvious about it, by design). I do NOT mean all people. But a great many of them. It's how organized religion works. You don't have to take my word on it obviously. I only have my own experiences and observations to go on (and what else I hear from others). But I do think that my own experiences are pretty informative.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • hedonisthedonist Posts: 24,524
    inlet13 wrote:
    We're discussing that most people make up their own minds - you are saying - religious folks don't.

    I was going to say - how do you know?

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but you said you studied various religions and you chose to be atheist. Did you ever actually really follow a religion enough to be called a "religious person"?

    If "yes", you're living proof that you're wrong.

    If "no", once again, how do you know that these people aren't capable of coming to their own conclusions? You were never one of them by your own admission. This seems really judgmental.
    inlet, once again, gotta say I appreciate your posts and viewpoints - not necessarily because I tend to agree with them, but because they make sense to me.

    PJ_Soul, I don't necessarily disagree with you on some of your points, but at the same time, they're kind of insulting to me, to my family. I can respect how you've come to your conclusions, but some of your comments seem dismissive of those who have come to theirs by a different means. As I see it, in the end, those who are honest, decent, open-minded people live their lives by a certain credo - much like those who are non-religious and yet (still!) good people.

    Hope this is taken in the spirit with which it's intended.
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,031
    hedonist wrote:
    inlet, once again, gotta say I appreciate your posts and viewpoints - not necessarily because I tend to agree with them, but because they make sense to me.

    PJ_Soul, I don't necessarily disagree with you on some of your points, but at the same time, they're kind of insulting to me, to my family. I can respect how you've come to your conclusions, but some of your comments seem dismissive of those who have come to theirs by a different means. As I see it, in the end, those who are honest, decent, open-minded people live their lives by a certain credo - much like those who are non-religious and yet (still!) good people.

    Hope this is taken in the spirit with which it's intended.
    Sorry if you're offended. I am just saying it as I see it. I don't mean to offend, but only to be honest about what I've observed. I guess I'll say that I don't actually feel judgmental about it. I view my points in a fairly detached way. And I am always understanding of those who find comfort or whatever else in their beliefs, assuming they don't get in the way of anyone else's beliefs. I'm not open minded about organized religion or how it works, but I am open minded about people and how they choose to live their lives.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225
    brianlux wrote:
    Not to over simplify the issue but I'd say that if the teacher encourages critical thinking and skepticism, that is education but if they dish out information and beliefs as truth without encouraging that kind of thinking, that is brainwashing.

    Which method of teaching used most often in religious teaching? That's a rhetorical question. It's also why I personally rejected all religion and choose the simpler beliefs of mystery and wonder.
    ...
    Thanx for that Brian. I was thinking along the same lines... where a student is encouraged to ask questions, whereas the person seated in the pew is listening to a one way sermon. Unless church has changed in the past 3 or 4 decades... can we ask questions that crop up during the sermons?
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,461
    Cosmo wrote:
    ...
    Thanx for that Brian. I was thinking along the same lines... where a student is encouraged to ask questions, whereas the person seated in the pew is listening to a one way sermon. Unless church has changed in the past 3 or 4 decades... can we ask questions that crop up during the sermons?

    Imagine, Cosmo, a church service involving Socratic dialog!
    "Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!"
    -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"

    "Try to not spook the horse."
    -Neil Young













  • peacefrompaulpeacefrompaul Posts: 25,293
    brianlux wrote:

    Imagine, Cosmo, a church service involving Socratic dialog!

    That would be insane :lol:
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,031
    Cosmo wrote:
    ...
    Thanx for that Brian. I was thinking along the same lines... where a student is encouraged to ask questions, whereas the person seated in the pew is listening to a one way sermon. Unless church has changed in the past 3 or 4 decades... can we ask questions that crop up during the sermons?
    As far as I know, you can't really ask questions that crop up in Sunday school or religious private school either, if they at all question or challenge the religious teachings.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • hedonisthedonist Posts: 24,524
    PJ_Soul wrote:
    Sorry if you're offended. I am just saying it as I see it. I don't mean to offend, but only to be honest about what I've observed. I guess I'll say that I don't actually feel judgmental about it. I view my points in a fairly detached way. And I am always understanding of those who find comfort or whatever else in their beliefs, assuming they don't get in the way of anyone else's beliefs. I'm not open minded about organized religion or how it works, but I am open minded about people and how they choose to live their lives.
    I said I found some of your comments insulting to me and mine. But, I'm not offended - it takes a lot for me to get there. For what it's worth though, you may not feel you're being judgmental, but some of your comments come off that way, ie, brainwashing. Hell, we're all judgmental to a degree. I am, much as I wish I weren't, or could be less so. But, I am.

    It's good to know the intent behind your comments, though. We're on the same page in the not-getting-in-the-way-of-others'-beliefs thing.
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,461
    PJ_Soul wrote:

    Exactly! And just as bad or worse, the teachers don't question or challenge their own beliefs.

    I'd really be interested in hearing of such religious teaching if there are any out there. If so, I'd guess it would have to be Unitarian Universalism of which I honestly don't know a lot about.
    "Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!"
    -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"

    "Try to not spook the horse."
    -Neil Young













  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,031
    brianlux wrote:

    Exactly! And just as bad or worse, the teachers don't question or challenge their own beliefs.

    I'd really be interested in hearing of such religious teaching if there are any out there. If so, I'd guess it would have to be Unitarian Universalism of which I honestly don't know a lot about.
    It happens in university level humanities and philosophy courses. :) I'd like to think that it is allowed to happen in theological universities and seminaries too, at the very least to prepare the students for diplomatically answering such challenges in their careers without going against the church's teachings, but I don't know about that.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225
    PJ_Soul wrote:
    As far as I know, you can't really ask questions that crop up in Sunday school or religious private school either, if they at all question or challenge the religious teachings.
    ...
    I remember Sunday School and asking the teacher, aren't we supposed to be resting today? I mean, it's one of the Commandments... wasn't she working as a teacher? And what about the people who are working at the Sears we were going to go to after Sunday school... are those people going to Hell?
    The answer was pretty much... "That as long as people had Jesus in their hearts, it provided their spirit to rest" or something along those lines... but it was usually, "That's not what we're talking about today".
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225
    I think it's actually more likely that we wouldn't even understand the answer if we were presented with it. so maybe we do have it after all.
    ...
    That's true. Maybe God is just too complex for any of us to comprehend. Maybe tha is the answer.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 29,003
    Cosmo wrote:
    ...
    That's true. Maybe God is just too complex for any of us to comprehend. Maybe tha is the answer.

    whenever i hear this it shits me., why would God be too complex for those who are suppose to believe in him? it makes zero sense. why would He toy with his creation that way? is He an arse? does he sit up there and laugh at our incomprehension? does it amuse Him to see us try and figure it out? i think the God is too complex for us to understand argument is a cop out cause questions asked cant be answered.
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,031

    whenever i hear this it shits me., why would God be too complex for those who are suppose to believe in him? it makes zero sense. why would He toy with his creation that way? is He an arse? does he sit up there and laugh at our incomprehension? does it amuse Him to see us try and figure it out? i think the God is too complex for us to understand argument is a cop out cause questions asked cant be answered.
    God is too complex for us to understand because that's the only way people are going to be convinced to believe in something that make no sense whatsoever. :|
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225

    whenever i hear this it shits me., why would God be too complex for those who are suppose to believe in him? it makes zero sense. why would He toy with his creation that way? is He an arse? does he sit up there and laugh at our incomprehension? does it amuse Him to see us try and figure it out? i think the God is too complex for us to understand argument is a cop out cause questions asked cant be answered.
    ...
    I guess it's sort of like the way my cat does not understand me. Her whole world is complicated and does not make sense. When I take her to the vet, she probably wonders, 'How come I can't find the right door or passage to get from this animal clinic back to my house where my food dish is... which one of these door leads me back home?' She can't understand the concepts of doors. She knows the doors at the house and which on leads to where... but the door at the vet's office... what door lead to this awful place?
    ...
    And I don't believe in God in the traditional, religious sense. That is, God did not create us. We came into being as an accident of consequence. The planet formed around the right sized star and slowed to just the correct speed and at just the the right distance to sustain life... for now. Before this time... the Earth was too hot... then, it became too cold to sustain life and now the conditions are right. But, this is not going to last forever. Eventually the planet's core will cool and she will lose her atmosphere. Then, the sun will cool and expand to consume her. God is nothing like humans. Maybe, God (or Nature) simply creates life and lets life evolve.
    Again... I don't know. Maybe God is Nature and we just glued our image onto Him to make us feel important. Religions do that. Doesn't mean it's true.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,461
    PJ_Soul wrote:
    God is too complex for us to understand because that's the only way people are going to be convinced to believe in something that make no sense whatsoever. :|

    I'm going to agree with you both here. It's ok- call me "fence sitter". :lol:

    I think if there is a God it could go either way. God could be as much less complex than we make him out to be- an entity that would be very easy to sit down and shoot the breeze with. Or it could go the other way as J. B. Phillips described in Your God is to Small in which he basically stated that as soon as you try to define God you've made him too small. I'm not sure which is right. It's a mystery to me-- which is also fine by me.
    "Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!"
    -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"

    "Try to not spook the horse."
    -Neil Young














  • whenever i hear this it shits me., why would God be too complex for those who are suppose to believe in him? it makes zero sense. why would He toy with his creation that way? is He an arse? does he sit up there and laugh at our incomprehension? does it amuse Him to see us try and figure it out? i think the God is too complex for us to understand argument is a cop out cause questions asked cant be answered.

    I never said God, Cosmo did. I was saying the answer (whatever that may be) is too complicated for us to understand. As in, the infiniteness of the universe. Can anyone really comprehend that it is infinite, that that's all there is, I mean, everything is contained in SOMETHING, how is the universe it? I can walk out my door, why can't we walk out the universe into the subflagerninglymanifestichato?

    all respect to Como, but that's what I was referring to.
    Gimli 1993
    Fargo 2003
    Winnipeg 2005
    Winnipeg 2011
    St. Paul 2014
  • Cosmo wrote:
    ...
    I guess it's sort of like the way my cat does not understand me. Her whole world is complicated and does not make sense. When I take her to the vet, she probably wonders, 'How come I can't find the right door or passage to get from this animal clinic back to my house where my food dish is... which one of these door leads me back home?' She can't understand the concepts of doors. She knows the doors at the house and which on leads to where... but the door at the vet's office... what door lead to this awful place?
    ...
    And I don't believe in God in the traditional, religious sense. That is, God did not create us. We came into being as an accident of consequence. The planet formed around the right sized star and slowed to just the correct speed and at just the the right distance to sustain life... for now. Before this time... the Earth was too hot... then, it became too cold to sustain life and now the conditions are right. But, this is not going to last forever. Eventually the planet's core will cool and she will lose her atmosphere. Then, the sun will cool and expand to consume her. God is nothing like humans. Maybe, God (or Nature) simply creates life and lets life evolve.
    Again... I don't know. Maybe God is Nature and we just glued our image onto Him to make us feel important. Religions do that. Doesn't mean it's true.

    all of the underlined points are exactly what I think. Cosmo, we need to meet up, sit down, smoke a doob, and have a 7 hour chat about the universe.

    and bring President Chadwick too.
    Gimli 1993
    Fargo 2003
    Winnipeg 2005
    Winnipeg 2011
    St. Paul 2014
  • ever see the Simpsons Treehouse of Horror episode called The Genesis Tub? that, in a ridiculously cartoonish way, is how I see things happened.
    Gimli 1993
    Fargo 2003
    Winnipeg 2005
    Winnipeg 2011
    St. Paul 2014
  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 29,003

    I never said God, Cosmo did. I was saying the answer (whatever that may be) is too complicated for us to understand. As in, the infiniteness of the universe. Can anyone really comprehend that it is infinite, that that's all there is, I mean, everything is contained in SOMETHING, how is the universe it? I can walk out my door, why can't we walk out the universe into the subflagerninglymanifestichato?

    all respect to Como, but that's what I was referring to.

    my comments were aimed at cosmo's post. :)

    oh and you cant walk out of the universe cause gravity wont allow you to. 8-)
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • inlet13inlet13 Posts: 1,979
    brianlux wrote:

    Not to over simplify the issue but I'd say that if the teacher encourages critical thinking and skepticism, that is education but if they dish out information and beliefs as truth without encouraging that kind of thinking, that is brainwashing.

    Which method of teaching used most often in religious teaching? That's a rhetorical question. It's also why I personally rejected all religion and choose the simpler beliefs of mystery and wonder.

    No offense, Brian... but, I find this post pretty funny.

    Let's re-work what you wrote and think about "climate change"... instead of "religion".

    To use your words in regards to climate change - If a teacher encourages critical thinking and "SKEPTICISM" that is education, right? If they dish out information and beliefs as truth WITHOUT encouraging that kind of thinking, that is brainwashing.

    This is coming from a person who's used the term "DENIER" regarding those who don't completely buy into what global climate change is selling. I mean I was always a person who said - I'm not sure it's real. I don't buy it completely. I build statistical models, like the ones used for climate change, I know they are faulty. I know the data is questionable at best. I know there could be incentives for there to be climate change. It could be real, but it very well may not be. Just like many thought the world was flat, but some questioned that logic.

    I don't mean for that to come across as instigating, I'm seriously curious. It appears to me that some here want religious folks to fit into certain rules, but then don't want those same rules to apply to them if it's an issue they feel passionately about.

    Seems kinda... hypocritical. That's all.
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  • inlet13inlet13 Posts: 1,979
    hedonist wrote:
    inlet, once again, gotta say I appreciate your posts and viewpoints - not necessarily because I tend to agree with them, but because they make sense to me.

    PJ_Soul, I don't necessarily disagree with you on some of your points, but at the same time, they're kind of insulting to me, to my family. I can respect how you've come to your conclusions, but some of your comments seem dismissive of those who have come to theirs by a different means. As I see it, in the end, those who are honest, decent, open-minded people live their lives by a certain credo - much like those who are non-religious and yet (still!) good people.

    Hope this is taken in the spirit with which it's intended.

    Thanks. I feel the same about yours. It's open-mindedness that I enjoy.
    Here's a new demo called "in the fire":

    <object height="81" width="100%"> <param name="movie" value="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869&quot;&gt;&lt;/param&gt; <param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param> <embed allowscriptaccess="always" height="81" src="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869&quot; type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="100%"></embed> </object> <span><a href=" - In the Fire (demo)</a> by <a href="
  • inlet13inlet13 Posts: 1,979
    PJ_Soul wrote:
    No, I didn't. I know that MANY people aren't capable of coming to their own conclusions because I spent so much time around so many of them during my own explorations - I'm talking about entire congregations of people, who are a good example of what is being match among other congregations within the same denomination. It's not a mistake... The churches go out of their way to do it, and are good at what they do. They tried to do it to me too, just as a matter of course. And btw, when I rejected what they were trying to do (brainwash me), they told me I was going to burn in hell and shit. They don't kid around. And I'm talking several different Christian churches (I did NOT have the same kinds of experiences with Islamists, although I did did some exploring with Sikhism, and it really wasn't much different in this context, but they were more careful and less obvious about it, by design). I do NOT mean all people. But a great many of them. It's how organized religion works. You don't have to take my word on it obviously. I only have my own experiences and observations to go on (and what else I hear from others). But I do think that my own experiences are pretty informative.

    So, anyway, I thought this thread was interesting because there were a lot of open-minded folks kinda exchanging ideas. I kinda think your posts come across as judgmental. I think you're trying to be open-minded, but don't realize that you're coming across as ridiculously judgmental, which is kinda sad.

    I also have experience with religion, I don't see it the same way you do at all. I understand that people don't like this religious institution, or that. They have a right - and you have the right to say what you are saying about these people. Basically, you're saying they are in cults and they don't know it. That's how I interpret what you're saying.

    I'd say you are coming off as close-minded as the people we were originally discussing.
    Here's a new demo called "in the fire":

    <object height="81" width="100%"> <param name="movie" value="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869&quot;&gt;&lt;/param&gt; <param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param> <embed allowscriptaccess="always" height="81" src="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869&quot; type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="100%"></embed> </object> <span><a href=" - In the Fire (demo)</a> by <a href="
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