Religion on the decline around the world

Cosmo

PJ_Soul wrote:

This doesn't make too much sense for me. Frankly, I think that saying it's arrogant to rule out the possibility of God is the same as saying it's arrogant to rule out the possibility of the existence of Puff the Magic Dragon after the song was written. I don't consider God to be a viable consideration in the first place. It's just something that people made up out of thin air... I don't really see any reason for this fabrication to be factored in to any consideration of the universe. Why should a fictional character invented by man be something I consider for something as profound as the workings of the universe? That doesn't make any sense, and I don't think it's very fair to suggest. It doesn't make me arrogant... it's just a necessary result of my lack of belief in God and my beliefs about how belief in God developed for others. Yes, that means I think that most of the world's population is wrong as far as the existence of God is concerned... but I don't think that because I'm smug. I really can't help it. It's not like I went out of my way to disbelieve in God just to be contrary. I don't have any desire to tell 90% of the world that they're wrong about something that means so much to them... But... I CAN'T think that there is any possibility for the existence of God......... Doesn't that make me a good Atheist?

...
Again... it comes down to belief versus knowledge. People either believe in the existance of God or they believe that God does not exist. Truth being, neither side knows the truth.
The advantage atheists have in this regard is the overwhelming burden of proof that the believers must present... and have failed to present. But, failure to prove does not mean non-existance. It is a pretty good indicator... but, lack of proof by the religious isn't proof that the atheist is correct.

Cosmo

catefrances wrote:

aah ok... well thats not me, thats for sure.

the difference between knowledge and belief as far as i can see is that knowledge relies on fact whilst belief relies on faith, which requires no basis in fact at all.

...
And faith is not a bad thing to possess. It's probably NOT the best thing to rely upon, but it does have its positive qualities.

Jeanwah

Cosmo wrote:

PJ_Soul wrote:

This doesn't make too much sense for me. Frankly, I think that saying it's arrogant to rule out the possibility of God is the same as saying it's arrogant to rule out the possibility of the existence of Puff the Magic Dragon after the song was written. I don't consider God to be a viable consideration in the first place. It's just something that people made up out of thin air... I don't really see any reason for this fabrication to be factored in to any consideration of the universe. Why should a fictional character invented by man be something I consider for something as profound as the workings of the universe? That doesn't make any sense, and I don't think it's very fair to suggest. It doesn't make me arrogant... it's just a necessary result of my lack of belief in God and my beliefs about how belief in God developed for others. Yes, that means I think that most of the world's population is wrong as far as the existence of God is concerned... but I don't think that because I'm smug. I really can't help it. It's not like I went out of my way to disbelieve in God just to be contrary. I don't have any desire to tell 90% of the world that they're wrong about something that means so much to them... But... I CAN'T think that there is any possibility for the existence of God......... Doesn't that make me a good Atheist?

...
Again... it comes down to belief versus knowledge. People either believe in the existance of God or they believe that God does not exist. Truth being, neither side knows the truth.
The advantage atheists have in this regard is the overwhelming burden of proof that the believers must present... and have failed to present. But, failure to prove does not mean non-existance. It is a pretty good indicator... but, lack of proof by the religious isn't proof that the atheist is correct.

I think you said this before Cosmo... How about a good 'ol "I don't know"? How about just being open to the possibility that God exists, while also being open to the possibility that perhaps it doesn't.

And is having a firm belief either way really that important in the grand scale of things?

catefrances

Cosmo wrote:

catefrances wrote:

aah ok... well thats not me, thats for sure.

the difference between knowledge and belief as far as i can see is that knowledge relies on fact whilst belief relies on faith, which requires no basis in fact at all.

...
And faith is not a bad thing to possess. It's probably NOT the best thing to rely upon, but it does have its positive qualities.

perhaps... i just see it as a waste of time and highly illogical tbh.

PJ_Soul

Jeanwah wrote:

Cosmo wrote:

PJ_Soul wrote:

This doesn't make too much sense for me. Frankly, I think that saying it's arrogant to rule out the possibility of God is the same as saying it's arrogant to rule out the possibility of the existence of Puff the Magic Dragon after the song was written. I don't consider God to be a viable consideration in the first place. It's just something that people made up out of thin air... I don't really see any reason for this fabrication to be factored in to any consideration of the universe. Why should a fictional character invented by man be something I consider for something as profound as the workings of the universe? That doesn't make any sense, and I don't think it's very fair to suggest. It doesn't make me arrogant... it's just a necessary result of my lack of belief in God and my beliefs about how belief in God developed for others. Yes, that means I think that most of the world's population is wrong as far as the existence of God is concerned... but I don't think that because I'm smug. I really can't help it. It's not like I went out of my way to disbelieve in God just to be contrary. I don't have any desire to tell 90% of the world that they're wrong about something that means so much to them... But... I CAN'T think that there is any possibility for the existence of God......... Doesn't that make me a good Atheist?

...
Again... it comes down to belief versus knowledge. People either believe in the existance of God or they believe that God does not exist. Truth being, neither side knows the truth.
The advantage atheists have in this regard is the overwhelming burden of proof that the believers must present... and have failed to present. But, failure to prove does not mean non-existance. It is a pretty good indicator... but, lack of proof by the religious isn't proof that the atheist is correct.

I think you said this before Cosmo... How about a good 'ol "I don't know"? How about just being open to the possibility that God exists, while also being open to the possibility that perhaps it doesn't.

And is having a firm belief either way really that important in the grand scale of things?

I just can't say "I don't know" about it. I don't think the existence of God is a possibility. I'm not willing to entertain otherwise. I just can't. If I did, I'd be lying to myself. I am NOT open to the idea that God exists, and don't see why I should be. Again, that would absolutely be the same as me being open to the idea that Mork exists. I can't be open to something so blatantly fictional when considering something as important as the human condition and the workings of the universe. To me that is important. I don't think everyone has to feel that it is. And to be clear, I do not think this line of thinking reasonably works both ways. I don't think you can transfer what I've just said to people who do believe in God, because of that burden of proof that Cosmo was talking about.

But I am understanding of those who believe. Believers don't make me mad until they start acting like wing nuts.

catefrances

PJ_Soul wrote:

I just can't say "I don't know" about it. I don't think the existence of God is a possibility. I'm not willing to entertain otherwise. I just can't. If I did, I'd be lying to myself. I am NOT open to the idea that God exists, and don't see why I should be. Again, that would absolutely be the same as me being open to the idea that Mork exists. I can't be open to something so blatantly fictional when considering something as important as the human condition and the workings of the universe. To me that is important. I don't think everyone has to feel that it is. And to be clear, I do not think this line of thinking reasonably works both ways. I don't think you can transfer what I've just said to people who do believe in God, because of that burden of proof that Cosmo was talking about.

But I am understanding of those who believe. Believers don't make me mad until they start acting like wing nuts.

right there with you sister.

Jeanwah

PJ_Soul wrote:

Jeanwah wrote:

I think you said this before Cosmo... How about a good 'ol "I don't know"? How about just being open to the possibility that God exists, while also being open to the possibility that perhaps it doesn't.

And is having a firm belief either way really that important in the grand scale of things?

I just can't say "I don't know" about it. I don't think the existence of God is a possibility. I'm not willing to entertain otherwise. I just can't. If I did, I'd be lying to myself. I am NOT open to the idea that God exists, and don't see why I should be. Again, that would absolutely be the same as me being open to the idea that Mork exists. I can't be open to something so blatantly fictional when considering something as important as the human condition and the workings of the universe. To me that is important. I don't think everyone has to feel that it is. And to be clear, I do not think this line of thinking reasonably works both ways. I don't think you can transfer what I've just said to people who do believe in God, because of that burden of proof that Cosmo was talking about.

But I am understanding of those who believe. Believers don't make me mad until they start acting like wing nuts.

It's fine to believe what you want, I just see being so closed is, well, so shut down and zipped up tight. That's all. And it's not just about belief that "God" exists; it extends to believing in the possibility of anything really. It's negative energy. Which is fine, don't get me wrong... we all have that choice to believe in what floats our boat. But by limiting what exists...that attitude carries over into other areas of your life, no?

Cosmo

Jeanwah wrote:

I think you said this before Cosmo... How about a good 'ol "I don't know"? How about just being open to the possibility that God exists, while also being open to the possibility that perhaps it doesn't.

And is having a firm belief either way really that important in the grand scale of things?

...
That is the religion I'm in... The Church of "I Don't Know".
It's like the current belief of the strings theory that unifies Quantum Mechanics and General Relativity... in order for the mathematical equations to work, there has to be multiple dimensions... which exapnds to multiple universes.
Are the theories correct or are the equations not pointing at the truth?
If the equations are ture... then that possiblity of my cat playing the guitar in one of those 11 or so dimensions may, in fact, be true... right?
The probability is still low because there is a very slim possibility that my cat... and guitars... exist in any of those other dimensions.
Truth is... I don't know. If there is someone who knows God... then, they sould know the answer to question about my cat's alter existance and her guitar playing skills in some parallel, yet different universe.
Maybe what science is discovering is that things... like the universe, existance and God cannot be fully understood... from this planet, where it is at this time.

Cosmo

PJ_Soul wrote:

I just can't say "I don't know" about it. I don't think the existence of God is a possibility. I'm not willing to entertain otherwise. I just can't. If I did, I'd be lying to myself. I am NOT open to the idea that God exists, and don't see why I should be. Again, that would absolutely be the same as me being open to the idea that Mork exists. I can't be open to something so blatantly fictional when considering something as important as the human condition and the workings of the universe. To me that is important. I don't think everyone has to feel that it is. And to be clear, I do not think this line of thinking reasonably works both ways. I don't think you can transfer what I've just said to people who do believe in God, because of that burden of proof that Cosmo was talking about.

But I am understanding of those who believe. Believers don't make me mad until they start acting like wing nuts.

...
I agree... although I can and do say I don't know... because that is the absolute truth... I don't know. It applies to me, it applies to you, it applies to atheists, Christians, Jews, Muslims, Scientologists, Mormans and my cat. The truth being... Cosmo does not know if God exists or not. Meaning, you can say, 'Cosmo does not know if God exists or not'... and that would be a true statement. A Christian can say the same thing... and that is the truth.
I'm open to both beliefs... but, as far as knowledge and truth goes... I don't know.

catefrances

Cosmo wrote:

Jeanwah wrote:

I think you said this before Cosmo... How about a good 'ol "I don't know"? How about just being open to the possibility that God exists, while also being open to the possibility that perhaps it doesn't.

And is having a firm belief either way really that important in the grand scale of things?

...
That is the religion I'm in... The Church of "I Don't Know".
It's like the current belief of the strings theory that unifies Quantum Mechanics and General Relativity... in order for the mathematical equations to work, there has to be multiple dimensions... which exapnds to multiple universes.
Are the theories correct or are the equations not pointing at the truth?
If the equations are ture... then that possiblity of my cat playing the guitar in one of those 11 or so dimensions may, in fact, be true... right?
The probability is still low because there is a very slim possibility that my cat... and guitars... exist in any of those other dimensions.
Truth is... I don't know. If there is someone who knows God... then, they sould know the answer to question about my cat's alter existance and her guitar playing skills in some parallel, yet different universe.
Maybe what science is discovering is that things... like the universe, existance and God cannot be fully understood... from this planet, where it is at this time.

cosmo,
do you want God to exist?

Cosmo

catefrances wrote:

cosmo,
do you want God to exist?

...
Good question.
I would go with, yeah... I'd like to think there is some sort of reasoning for my existance other than to just occupy this little spinning blue rock for a flash in time. I would like to think that at some point... I'd KNOW the truth... instead of believing in the existance of truth.
Personally... my belief is that religion has God all wrong. Religion created God to fit religion... that's the reason why God was made in Man's image... because Man created God to fit Man's needs. I like to think that God is much better than the way religion paints Him.
If there is no God... well, that's okay, too. I try to live for today and do what I can. Love and loved... I can deal with that.

catefrances

Cosmo wrote:

catefrances wrote:

cosmo,
do you want God to exist?

...
Good question.
I would go with, yeah... I'd like to think there is some sort of reasoning for my existance other than to just occupy this little spinning blue rock for a flash in time. I would like to think that at some point... I'd KNOW the truth... instead of believing in the existance of truth.
Personally... my belief is that religion has God all wrong. Religion created God to fit religion... that's the reason why God was made in Man's image... because Man created God to fit Man's needs. I like to think that God is much better than the way religion paints Him.
If there is no God... well, that's okay, too. I try to live for today and do what I can. Love and loved... I can deal with that.

so you think that without the existence of God, life has no meaning? that somehow all we humans have a reason for existing other than just existing and that the existence of God will legitimise that existence??

PJ_Soul

Jeanwah wrote:

PJ_Soul wrote:

Jeanwah wrote:

I think you said this before Cosmo... How about a good 'ol "I don't know"? How about just being open to the possibility that God exists, while also being open to the possibility that perhaps it doesn't.

And is having a firm belief either way really that important in the grand scale of things?

I just can't say "I don't know" about it. I don't think the existence of God is a possibility. I'm not willing to entertain otherwise. I just can't. If I did, I'd be lying to myself. I am NOT open to the idea that God exists, and don't see why I should be. Again, that would absolutely be the same as me being open to the idea that Mork exists. I can't be open to something so blatantly fictional when considering something as important as the human condition and the workings of the universe. To me that is important. I don't think everyone has to feel that it is. And to be clear, I do not think this line of thinking reasonably works both ways. I don't think you can transfer what I've just said to people who do believe in God, because of that burden of proof that Cosmo was talking about.

But I am understanding of those who believe. Believers don't make me mad until they start acting like wing nuts.

It's fine to believe what you want, I just see being so closed is, well, so shut down and zipped up tight. That's all. And it's not just about belief that "God" exists; it extends to believing in the possibility of anything really. It's negative energy. Which is fine, don't get me wrong... we all have that choice to believe in what floats our boat. But by limiting what exists...that attitude carries over into other areas of your life, no?

Oh, actually that's not the case at all. I'm very willing, for example, to entertain the possibility of some kind of an after life, or some sort of a connection between living things, supernatural phenomena, or pretty much anything else, and am a believer in extaterrestial intelligent life too. I just am not open to attributing anything to God. That atheism means necessarily not believing in a bunch of other things is a common misconception.

Cosmo

catefrances wrote:

so you think that without the existence of God, life has no meaning? that somehow all we humans have a reason for existing other than just existing and that the existence of God will legitimise that existence??

...
Well... when you put it that way... I guess the answer if yes. What makes me different from you or anyone else? Why didn't my level of being come into here as some poor starvng kid in Africa... or my cat... or a blade of grass? All of those possess life, right? How come I hit the jackpot and was born here, instead of the poverty of Somalia? If we are all just life... a form of life... why am i here... now... not occupying the existance of a spider in te field across from my office?
...
Of course... as humans, we pour into our existance what we gather from our lives. That defines our human being and provides meaning to our existance... as humans. But, when speaking of life... it could be any living thing, right?

catefrances

Cosmo wrote:

catefrances wrote:

so you think that without the existence of God, life has no meaning? that somehow all we humans have a reason for existing other than just existing and that the existence of God will legitimise that existence??

...
Well... when you put it that way... I guess the answer if yes. What makes me different from you or anyone else? Why didn't my level of being come into here as some poor starvng kid in Africa... or my cat... or a blade of grass? All of those possess life, right? How come I hit the jackpot and was born here, instead of the poverty of Somalia? If we are all just life... a form of life... why am i here... now... not occupying the existance of a spider in te field across from my office?
...
Of course... as humans, we pour into our existance what we gather from our lives. That defines our human being and provides meaning to our existance... as humans. But, when speaking of life... it could be any living thing, right?

aah yes the accident of birth. i often think about this... but not too deeply otherwise my head would explode. but in my quietest moments i wonder where id be now had my ex partners parents decided to return to england from sth africa rather than come here to australia. i know my children, as they are now, wouldnt have been born. perhaps i wouldve given birth to other children, perhaps my life wouldve taken me elsewhere. but what i do know is the decisions i have made have not been made in a vacuum. its all connected, that much i know. we like to think we have free will, and we do.. but only to a certain extent.. and then others free will impedes upon our own and free will ceases to exist to its full extent. and why we are human and not butterflies... thats a question i cant answer. but i do wonder about that theory that says all the matter on earth is here, it can not be added to nor taken away from. and so everything here on earth that ever will be is already here.. just in different form. then of course wonder about meteorites and comets and all those space rocks that crash to earth.

Cosmo

catefrances wrote:

aah yes the accident of birth. i often think about this... but not too deeply otherwise my head would explode. but in my quietest moments i wonder where id be now had my ex partners parents decided to return to england from sth africa rather than come here to australia. i know my children, as they are now, wouldnt have been born. perhaps i wouldve given birth to other children, perhaps my life wouldve taken me elsewhere. but what i do know is the decisions i have made have not been made in a vacuum. its all connected, that much i know. we like to think we have free will, and we do.. but only to a certain extent.. and then others free will impedes upon our own and free will ceases to exist to its full extent. and why we are human and not butterflies... thats a question i cant answer. but i do wonder about that theory that says all the matter on earth is here, it can not be added to nor taken away from. and so everything here on earth that ever will be is already here.. just in different form. then of course wonder about meteorites and comets and all those space rocks that crash to earth.

...
I suppose I understand the random chaos of the planet. It's not THAT Intelligent of a Design when part of the design has the Sun eventually consuming us all and everything that is and ever was on the planet is gone, right? I suppose some sort of order would be nice... or at least explained to my on why that is.
I know that no one I encounter here on Earth can answer my questions without eventually telling me I must make that leap of faith. Which, to me... is a fucking cop out and a way of saying, "I don't have a clue... but, here's an answer to satisfy you". I don't want an answer... I want THE answer. I don't want some one else's belief... I want the one true truth.
That's why I say no one knows... because no one knows. People have things to comfort them, which is fine. But, i don't want comfort... I want honesty... I want truth.
That's why I suppose it would be nice to know if God exists... to find that order.

catefrances

Cosmo wrote:

catefrances wrote:

aah yes the accident of birth. i often think about this... but not too deeply otherwise my head would explode. but in my quietest moments i wonder where id be now had my ex partners parents decided to return to england from sth africa rather than come here to australia. i know my children, as they are now, wouldnt have been born. perhaps i wouldve given birth to other children, perhaps my life wouldve taken me elsewhere. but what i do know is the decisions i have made have not been made in a vacuum. its all connected, that much i know. we like to think we have free will, and we do.. but only to a certain extent.. and then others free will impedes upon our own and free will ceases to exist to its full extent. and why we are human and not butterflies... thats a question i cant answer. but i do wonder about that theory that says all the matter on earth is here, it can not be added to nor taken away from. and so everything here on earth that ever will be is already here.. just in different form. then of course wonder about meteorites and comets and all those space rocks that crash to earth.

...
I suppose I understand the random chaos of the planet. It's not THAT Intelligent of a Design when part of the design has the Sun eventually consuming us all and everything that is and ever was on the planet is gone, right? I suppose some sort of order would be nice... or at least explained to my on why that is.
I know that no one I encounter here on Earth can answer my questions without eventually telling me I must make that leap of faith. Which, to me... is a fucking cop out and a way of saying, "I don't have a clue... but, here's an answer to satisfy you". I don't want an answer... I want THE answer. I don't want some one else's belief... I want the one true truth.
That's why I say no one knows... because no one knows. People have things to comfort them, which is fine. But, i don't want comfort... I want honesty... I want truth.
That's why I suppose it would be nice to know if God exists... to find that order.

what if there is no answer. what if all this wondering is just your big brain.. well wondering cause its got nothing better to do? we find ourselves in a very privileged position. we really dont have to worry about shelter, we dont have to worry about catching our food. we turn on the tap and water comes out. we waste an inordinate amount of time on pasttimes(and thinking as it turns out) simply because we want for nothing. every day isnt a test of survival for us cause we are the apex. however drop us in a situation where our survival is an issue and im thinking questions of why we are here would fly out the window. humans are a high order thinker and therefore we think... we think perhaps a little too much... and usually about things that arent of paramount importance to our survival.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

sometimes I'm not totally sure if I even exist at all. (Warning: Matrix geek!)

there IS no point to life, really. other than to enjoy it when it is given to us. But like cate said, what is the percentage of the world that actually enjoys life, as opposed to just survives another sunset? so then the meaning of life actually only exists for about 2% of the world. and even then, it existed for 0 of us for eons, because all we did was survive.

I was an accident. My brother was an accident. My sister was planned. I could easily have been just another used tissue, and my kids would therefore not exist. it's mind boggling to think of the ramifications of one small thing.

i used to think about this shit all the time. then I decided to go back to living. (but it is fun and quite thought-provoking to talk about)

Hugh Freaking Dillon

I just can't fathom a god that created a being that is so bent on the unnecessary destruction of its fellow beings.

if he was so disappointed with us when he drowned us all and made noah build the world's biggest boat, why didn't he just create something different instead of trying again? I mean, shouldn't an all knowing god know better?

Cosmo

catefrances wrote:

what if there is no answer. what if all this wondering is just your big brain.. well wondering cause its got nothing better to do? we find ourselves in a very privileged position. we really dont have to worry about shelter, we dont have to worry about catching our food. we turn on the tap and water comes out. we waste an inordinate amount of time on pasttimes(and thinking as it turns out) simply because we want for nothing. every day isnt a test of survival for us cause we are the apex. however drop us in a situation where our survival is an issue and im thinking questions of why we are here would fly out the window. humans are a high order thinker and therefore we think... we think perhaps a little too much... and usually about things that arent of paramount importance to our survival.

...
That's probably the answer... there is no answer. And I'll accept that. Just as in math, sometimes the answer is NULL. Sometimes, that's just the way it is. Not a problem.
And it's not a task or a burden or an obsession... more of a case of wonder. As I walk, I think about the ground beneath my feet... moving, spinning, hurtling through space. I look up at the night sky and wonder about the light i'm seeing right now and how old that light is... just getting to my eyes this second... even though it left its origin hundreds of years ago. Just crap like that.
I think we all look for answers... and many of us just feel comfortable with the answers that other people give them... answers that have been handed down through the ages. i'm not like that, I guess. I just can't accept things, just because someone said so. I like to find the 'Whys' in this trip. And I suppose I simply, enjoy the journey I'm on.