but we are not all christians.. so to stone adulterers based on biblical law is a breach of someones human rights at the least. we need secular laws for secular societies. oh and adultery is not against our law.
...
I know. I used the adulterers thing to illustrate the duality of religion, since religion is made from the mind of Man.
I agree with what you and Inlet both say... we don't want government to fuse with religion to make laws we must all obey. I also believe that we HAVE to have laws because it is in Man's nature to interpret what is good for the self... is good. Regardless of how evil it may be to others. It's not because Man is inherently evil... he is inherently selfish... just like every other animal on the planet who wishes to survive.
you know i often wonder to how much degree man is actually a social animal. i know we live in these groups called society but were they meant to be as large as they are??? and if not, by doing so, have we unbalanced the apple cart and ourselves in the process.
Good thought, Cate. I'm not so sure... it can be so overwhelming and exhausting...
Me? I'll be sitting in the corner staring at it. Being around a lot of people is not something I like to do very often.
Good thought, Cate. I'm not so sure... it can be so overwhelming and exhausting...
Me? I'll be sitting in the corner staring at it. Being around a lot of people is not something I like to do very often.
Sounds much like me - which is why concerts (around a lot of people) is typicallly reserved for those bands truly worth it (by my somewhat biased standards).
This thread has become wonderful fodder for this brain of mine.
The truth is, I think you're ever-so-slighly siding with one side up here in your comments.
...
No. I am right smack dab in the middle on this one. I will give the person who says he absolutely knows that God does NOT exist the same arguements that I would the person who says he knows God does exist. The Arguement on my part is the same for either side... they do NOT know, they may believe they know, but belief is not knowledge. Both persons are equally full of shit when they try to use the arguement about KNOWING the truth about God. And i will tell them both the same thing... in equal terms.
Wow judge people much?
This is based on what you think what you feel ... YOU don't know so no one can...
That is the duality of Man. We are capable of creating emmense beauty... and horrific evil. When looked at through the lense of objectivity, religion can beautiful and hideous at the same time. It all depends on the person doing the interpretation as to which way the ball will roll.
I believe the thing we should realize is that religion is man made... whether it is the monolith of the Catholic Church or the singular person who believes God talks to him. It is not God's doing... it's man's ruin.
Again judgmental and a blatant generalization that does not embrace the individual good
and collective good that goes with a religion.
And you say you do not even the least bit take a side ... give us a break
Do you not see? You speak of the human factor then totally disregard it
as far as religion is concerned. I don't belong to a religion but I meet the very best of people,
working their lives for others purely, unselfishly, who do.
Freedom of choice is the human factor, the most important factor to building character,
the path we walk and learn from. Within religion is the human factor
and should be recognized for the good done in the name of religion.
I found this an interesting but not overly surprising trend..
I think this is good for the world. I believe people are inherently good, not because they fear retribution from the almighty, but because we are wired that way.
If people need an external motivation to be good or to do good things, then pick something. Do it in the name of corn Flakes for all I care. I don't believe anyone has ever been executed in the name of corn Flakes.
Ok, it just seemed like you were coming down hard on the religious side, and not touching the anti-religious side. That's all.
...
It's probably because you will find more people claiming to know the truth about God on the religious side of the discussion. Most atheists I run into will say stuff like, 'I don't **believe** in God' and I have rarely come across one that claims to know, beyond any and all doubt, that God does not exist. I'm calling bullshit on the latter because I KNOW that person does not know. The fact is, he believes he know God does not exist, when the fact is he does not know.
Proof of God is elusive... as elusive as proof that God does not exist. Which is why the truth is... we just don't know.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
I thought this article was relevant to some of the discussion in this thread. Particularly the parts I chose from it below, though the whole thing is an interesting read:
"God, to me, has always been elusive. I understand perfectly why atheists are baffled by religion, but I’m just as baffled by them; I could never claim such certainty about the workings of the universe as to rule out any possibility of God. Faith is misunderstood as a synonym for certitude, but really it’s a concept that has doubt folded into it. My own uncertainty about how to conceive of God is deep. As this month of dawns and sunsets neared its end, I began to wonder if the fast has something to do with God’s very unknowability.
...When the fast empties you out during Ramadan, no matter how well you adjust to the deprivation, you never stop feeling the tug of hunger. That tug is a reminder—a reminder, perhaps, of that void inside the Kaaba, and the silent mystery of the divine. On Day Twenty-seven, I happened upon a verse in the Koran about a mirage in the desert: “The thirsty man takes it to be water until he comes to it and finds it to be nothing, and where he thought it to be, there he finds God.”"
I thought this article was relevant to some of the discussion in this thread. Particularly the parts I chose from it below, though the whole thing is an interesting read:
"God, to me, has always been elusive. I understand perfectly why atheists are baffled by religion, but I’m just as baffled by them; I could never claim such certainty about the workings of the universe as to rule out any possibility of God. Faith is misunderstood as a synonym for certitude, but really it’s a concept that has doubt folded into it. My own uncertainty about how to conceive of God is deep. As this month of dawns and sunsets neared its end, I began to wonder if the fast has something to do with God’s very unknowability.
...When the fast empties you out during Ramadan, no matter how well you adjust to the deprivation, you never stop feeling the tug of hunger. That tug is a reminder—a reminder, perhaps, of that void inside the Kaaba, and the silent mystery of the divine. On Day Twenty-seven, I happened upon a verse in the Koran about a mirage in the desert: “The thirsty man takes it to be water until he comes to it and finds it to be nothing, and where he thought it to be, there he finds God.”"
...
This cuts to the core of which I believe... God's unknowability.
I am much too feeble of a living being to know and understand God and truth in my current state of existance... and... so is everyone else.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
I thought this article was relevant to some of the discussion in this thread. Particularly the parts I chose from it below, though the whole thing is an interesting read:
"God, to me, has always been elusive. I understand perfectly why atheists are baffled by religion, but I’m just as baffled by them; I could never claim such certainty about the workings of the universe as to rule out any possibility of God. Faith is misunderstood as a synonym for certitude, but really it’s a concept that has doubt folded into it. My own uncertainty about how to conceive of God is deep. As this month of dawns and sunsets neared its end, I began to wonder if the fast has something to do with God’s very unknowability.
...When the fast empties you out during Ramadan, no matter how well you adjust to the deprivation, you never stop feeling the tug of hunger. That tug is a reminder—a reminder, perhaps, of that void inside the Kaaba, and the silent mystery of the divine. On Day Twenty-seven, I happened upon a verse in the Koran about a mirage in the desert: “The thirsty man takes it to be water until he comes to it and finds it to be nothing, and where he thought it to be, there he finds God.”"
...
This cuts to the core of which I believe... God's unknowability.
I am much too feeble of a living being to know and understand God and truth in my current state of existance... and... so is everyone else.
You know, I keep coming back to you're line - "so is everyone else". You are saying you're too feeble of a living being to understand God... fair enough. No offense to you - but, how do you know everyone else is the same? You're not them. They could have had an experience you didn't. They could know something you don't.
I get your point though that faith is not "knowing"... which you've been trying to drive home. I don't think anyone disagrees that's there's an element of belief that is in question. I just think maybe there may be a person out there who actually did "know"... maybe they had an experience or something. It's possible. Just something to think about.
You know, I keep coming back to you're line - "so is everyone else". You are saying you're too feeble of a living being to understand God... fair enough. No offense to you - but, how do you know everyone else is the same? You're not them. They could have had an experience you didn't. They could know something you don't.
I get your point though that faith is not "knowing"... which you've been trying to drive home. I don't think anyone disagrees that's there's an element of belief that is in question. I just think maybe there may be a person out there who actually did "know"... maybe they had an experience or something. It's possible. Just something to think about.
It's been an interesting thread.
...
It is possible for my cat to learn to play the guitar in the realm of 'anything being possible'. The difference being, possibility versus probabllity. My cat may possibly figure out the chords to 'Stray Cat Blues' someday, but, there is a very low probability that she will.
As for those whom claim to have had meetings with God... how many of them have been able to explain it? If you said, 'Not many... if any', you are probably right. They may have encountered God... but do not know or understand God. They may have fortified their belief... but, I have yet to read or hear of anyone who has reached that level of enlightenment to explain what God's plan for the rest of us is.
...
I might add... it is equally arrogant for someone to claim to know that God does not exist. Just because we cannot explain God or prove of God's existance is not truth ot knowledge, either.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
I thought this article was relevant to some of the discussion in this thread. Particularly the parts I chose from it below, though the whole thing is an interesting read:
"God, to me, has always been elusive. I understand perfectly why atheists are baffled by religion, but I’m just as baffled by them; I could never claim such certainty about the workings of the universe as to rule out any possibility of God. Faith is misunderstood as a synonym for certitude, but really it’s a concept that has doubt folded into it. My own uncertainty about how to conceive of God is deep. As this month of dawns and sunsets neared its end, I began to wonder if the fast has something to do with God’s very unknowability.
...When the fast empties you out during Ramadan, no matter how well you adjust to the deprivation, you never stop feeling the tug of hunger. That tug is a reminder—a reminder, perhaps, of that void inside the Kaaba, and the silent mystery of the divine. On Day Twenty-seven, I happened upon a verse in the Koran about a mirage in the desert: “The thirsty man takes it to be water until he comes to it and finds it to be nothing, and where he thought it to be, there he finds God.”"
This doesn't make too much sense for me. Frankly, I think that saying it's arrogant to rule out the possibility of God is the same as saying it's arrogant to rule out the possibility of the existence of Puff the Magic Dragon after the song was written. I don't consider God to be a viable consideration in the first place. It's just something that people made up out of thin air... I don't really see any reason for this fabrication to be factored in to any consideration of the universe. Why should a fictional character invented by man be something I consider for something as profound as the workings of the universe? That doesn't make any sense, and I don't think it's very fair to suggest. It doesn't make me arrogant... it's just a necessary result of my lack of belief in God and my beliefs about how belief in God developed for others. Yes, that means I think that most of the world's population is wrong as far as the existence of God is concerned... but I don't think that because I'm smug. I really can't help it. It's not like I went out of my way to disbelieve in God just to be contrary. I don't have any desire to tell 90% of the world that they're wrong about something that means so much to them... But... I CAN'T think that there is any possibility for the existence of God......... Doesn't that make me a good Atheist?
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
..
It is possible for my cat to learn to play the guitar in the realm of 'anything being possible'. The difference being, possibility versus probabllity. My cat may possibly figure out the chords to 'Stray Cat Blues' someday, but, there is a very low probability that she will.
As for those whom claim to have had meetings with God... how many of them have been able to explain it? If you said, 'Not many... if any', you are probably right. They may have encountered God... but do not know or understand God. They may have fortified their belief... but, I have yet to read or hear of anyone who has reached that level of enlightenment to explain what God's plan for the rest of us is.
...
I might add... it is equally arrogant for someone to claim to know that God does not exist. Just because we cannot explain God or prove of God's existance is not truth ot knowledge, either.
i dont think it is physically possible for your cat to learn to play the guitar. and i dont think that anything is possible.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
i dont think it is physically possible for your cat to learn to play the guitar. and i dont think that anything is possible.
...
That was for those whom believe that 'Anything is possible'. If anything truely IS possible... then, 'anything' would also include my cat playing the guitar.
Possiblity and probability get mixed up... just like knowledge and belief get mixed up when talk turn to that of God.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
i dont think it is physically possible for your cat to learn to play the guitar. and i dont think that anything is possible.
...
That was for those whom believe that 'Anything is possible'. If anything truely IS possible... then, 'anything' would also include my cat playing the guitar.
Possiblity and probability get mixed up... just like knowledge and belief get mixed up when talk turn to that of God.
aah ok... well thats not me, thats for sure.
the difference between knowledge and belief as far as i can see is that knowledge relies on fact whilst belief relies on faith, which requires no basis in fact at all.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
This doesn't make too much sense for me. Frankly, I think that saying it's arrogant to rule out the possibility of God is the same as saying it's arrogant to rule out the possibility of the existence of Puff the Magic Dragon after the song was written. I don't consider God to be a viable consideration in the first place. It's just something that people made up out of thin air... I don't really see any reason for this fabrication to be factored in to any consideration of the universe. Why should a fictional character invented by man be something I consider for something as profound as the workings of the universe? That doesn't make any sense, and I don't think it's very fair to suggest. It doesn't make me arrogant... it's just a necessary result of my lack of belief in God and my beliefs about how belief in God developed for others. Yes, that means I think that most of the world's population is wrong as far as the existence of God is concerned... but I don't think that because I'm smug. I really can't help it. It's not like I went out of my way to disbelieve in God just to be contrary. I don't have any desire to tell 90% of the world that they're wrong about something that means so much to them... But... I CAN'T think that there is any possibility for the existence of God......... Doesn't that make me a good Atheist?
...
Again... it comes down to belief versus knowledge. People either believe in the existance of God or they believe that God does not exist. Truth being, neither side knows the truth.
The advantage atheists have in this regard is the overwhelming burden of proof that the believers must present... and have failed to present. But, failure to prove does not mean non-existance. It is a pretty good indicator... but, lack of proof by the religious isn't proof that the atheist is correct.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
the difference between knowledge and belief as far as i can see is that knowledge relies on fact whilst belief relies on faith, which requires no basis in fact at all.
...
And faith is not a bad thing to possess. It's probably NOT the best thing to rely upon, but it does have its positive qualities.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
This doesn't make too much sense for me. Frankly, I think that saying it's arrogant to rule out the possibility of God is the same as saying it's arrogant to rule out the possibility of the existence of Puff the Magic Dragon after the song was written. I don't consider God to be a viable consideration in the first place. It's just something that people made up out of thin air... I don't really see any reason for this fabrication to be factored in to any consideration of the universe. Why should a fictional character invented by man be something I consider for something as profound as the workings of the universe? That doesn't make any sense, and I don't think it's very fair to suggest. It doesn't make me arrogant... it's just a necessary result of my lack of belief in God and my beliefs about how belief in God developed for others. Yes, that means I think that most of the world's population is wrong as far as the existence of God is concerned... but I don't think that because I'm smug. I really can't help it. It's not like I went out of my way to disbelieve in God just to be contrary. I don't have any desire to tell 90% of the world that they're wrong about something that means so much to them... But... I CAN'T think that there is any possibility for the existence of God......... Doesn't that make me a good Atheist?
...
Again... it comes down to belief versus knowledge. People either believe in the existance of God or they believe that God does not exist. Truth being, neither side knows the truth.
The advantage atheists have in this regard is the overwhelming burden of proof that the believers must present... and have failed to present. But, failure to prove does not mean non-existance. It is a pretty good indicator... but, lack of proof by the religious isn't proof that the atheist is correct.
I think you said this before Cosmo... How about a good 'ol "I don't know"? How about just being open to the possibility that God exists, while also being open to the possibility that perhaps it doesn't.
And is having a firm belief either way really that important in the grand scale of things?
the difference between knowledge and belief as far as i can see is that knowledge relies on fact whilst belief relies on faith, which requires no basis in fact at all.
...
And faith is not a bad thing to possess. It's probably NOT the best thing to rely upon, but it does have its positive qualities.
perhaps... i just see it as a waste of time and highly illogical tbh.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
This doesn't make too much sense for me. Frankly, I think that saying it's arrogant to rule out the possibility of God is the same as saying it's arrogant to rule out the possibility of the existence of Puff the Magic Dragon after the song was written. I don't consider God to be a viable consideration in the first place. It's just something that people made up out of thin air... I don't really see any reason for this fabrication to be factored in to any consideration of the universe. Why should a fictional character invented by man be something I consider for something as profound as the workings of the universe? That doesn't make any sense, and I don't think it's very fair to suggest. It doesn't make me arrogant... it's just a necessary result of my lack of belief in God and my beliefs about how belief in God developed for others. Yes, that means I think that most of the world's population is wrong as far as the existence of God is concerned... but I don't think that because I'm smug. I really can't help it. It's not like I went out of my way to disbelieve in God just to be contrary. I don't have any desire to tell 90% of the world that they're wrong about something that means so much to them... But... I CAN'T think that there is any possibility for the existence of God......... Doesn't that make me a good Atheist?
...
Again... it comes down to belief versus knowledge. People either believe in the existance of God or they believe that God does not exist. Truth being, neither side knows the truth.
The advantage atheists have in this regard is the overwhelming burden of proof that the believers must present... and have failed to present. But, failure to prove does not mean non-existance. It is a pretty good indicator... but, lack of proof by the religious isn't proof that the atheist is correct.
I think you said this before Cosmo... How about a good 'ol "I don't know"? How about just being open to the possibility that God exists, while also being open to the possibility that perhaps it doesn't.
And is having a firm belief either way really that important in the grand scale of things?
I just can't say "I don't know" about it. I don't think the existence of God is a possibility. I'm not willing to entertain otherwise. I just can't. If I did, I'd be lying to myself. I am NOT open to the idea that God exists, and don't see why I should be. Again, that would absolutely be the same as me being open to the idea that Mork exists. I can't be open to something so blatantly fictional when considering something as important as the human condition and the workings of the universe. To me that is important. I don't think everyone has to feel that it is. And to be clear, I do not think this line of thinking reasonably works both ways. I don't think you can transfer what I've just said to people who do believe in God, because of that burden of proof that Cosmo was talking about.
But I am understanding of those who believe. Believers don't make me mad until they start acting like wing nuts.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I just can't say "I don't know" about it. I don't think the existence of God is a possibility. I'm not willing to entertain otherwise. I just can't. If I did, I'd be lying to myself. I am NOT open to the idea that God exists, and don't see why I should be. Again, that would absolutely be the same as me being open to the idea that Mork exists. I can't be open to something so blatantly fictional when considering something as important as the human condition and the workings of the universe. To me that is important. I don't think everyone has to feel that it is. And to be clear, I do not think this line of thinking reasonably works both ways. I don't think you can transfer what I've just said to people who do believe in God, because of that burden of proof that Cosmo was talking about.
But I am understanding of those who believe. Believers don't make me mad until they start acting like wing nuts.
right there with you sister.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
I think you said this before Cosmo... How about a good 'ol "I don't know"? How about just being open to the possibility that God exists, while also being open to the possibility that perhaps it doesn't.
And is having a firm belief either way really that important in the grand scale of things?
I just can't say "I don't know" about it. I don't think the existence of God is a possibility. I'm not willing to entertain otherwise. I just can't. If I did, I'd be lying to myself. I am NOT open to the idea that God exists, and don't see why I should be. Again, that would absolutely be the same as me being open to the idea that Mork exists. I can't be open to something so blatantly fictional when considering something as important as the human condition and the workings of the universe. To me that is important. I don't think everyone has to feel that it is. And to be clear, I do not think this line of thinking reasonably works both ways. I don't think you can transfer what I've just said to people who do believe in God, because of that burden of proof that Cosmo was talking about.
But I am understanding of those who believe. Believers don't make me mad until they start acting like wing nuts.
It's fine to believe what you want, I just see being so closed is, well, so shut down and zipped up tight. That's all. And it's not just about belief that "God" exists; it extends to believing in the possibility of anything really. It's negative energy. Which is fine, don't get me wrong... we all have that choice to believe in what floats our boat. But by limiting what exists...that attitude carries over into other areas of your life, no?
I think you said this before Cosmo... How about a good 'ol "I don't know"? How about just being open to the possibility that God exists, while also being open to the possibility that perhaps it doesn't.
And is having a firm belief either way really that important in the grand scale of things?
...
That is the religion I'm in... The Church of "I Don't Know".
It's like the current belief of the strings theory that unifies Quantum Mechanics and General Relativity... in order for the mathematical equations to work, there has to be multiple dimensions... which exapnds to multiple universes.
Are the theories correct or are the equations not pointing at the truth?
If the equations are ture... then that possiblity of my cat playing the guitar in one of those 11 or so dimensions may, in fact, be true... right?
The probability is still low because there is a very slim possibility that my cat... and guitars... exist in any of those other dimensions.
Truth is... I don't know. If there is someone who knows God... then, they sould know the answer to question about my cat's alter existance and her guitar playing skills in some parallel, yet different universe.
Maybe what science is discovering is that things... like the universe, existance and God cannot be fully understood... from this planet, where it is at this time.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
I just can't say "I don't know" about it. I don't think the existence of God is a possibility. I'm not willing to entertain otherwise. I just can't. If I did, I'd be lying to myself. I am NOT open to the idea that God exists, and don't see why I should be. Again, that would absolutely be the same as me being open to the idea that Mork exists. I can't be open to something so blatantly fictional when considering something as important as the human condition and the workings of the universe. To me that is important. I don't think everyone has to feel that it is. And to be clear, I do not think this line of thinking reasonably works both ways. I don't think you can transfer what I've just said to people who do believe in God, because of that burden of proof that Cosmo was talking about.
But I am understanding of those who believe. Believers don't make me mad until they start acting like wing nuts.
...
I agree... although I can and do say I don't know... because that is the absolute truth... I don't know. It applies to me, it applies to you, it applies to atheists, Christians, Jews, Muslims, Scientologists, Mormans and my cat. The truth being... Cosmo does not know if God exists or not. Meaning, you can say, 'Cosmo does not know if God exists or not'... and that would be a true statement. A Christian can say the same thing... and that is the truth.
I'm open to both beliefs... but, as far as knowledge and truth goes... I don't know.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
I think you said this before Cosmo... How about a good 'ol "I don't know"? How about just being open to the possibility that God exists, while also being open to the possibility that perhaps it doesn't.
And is having a firm belief either way really that important in the grand scale of things?
...
That is the religion I'm in... The Church of "I Don't Know".
It's like the current belief of the strings theory that unifies Quantum Mechanics and General Relativity... in order for the mathematical equations to work, there has to be multiple dimensions... which exapnds to multiple universes.
Are the theories correct or are the equations not pointing at the truth?
If the equations are ture... then that possiblity of my cat playing the guitar in one of those 11 or so dimensions may, in fact, be true... right?
The probability is still low because there is a very slim possibility that my cat... and guitars... exist in any of those other dimensions.
Truth is... I don't know. If there is someone who knows God... then, they sould know the answer to question about my cat's alter existance and her guitar playing skills in some parallel, yet different universe.
Maybe what science is discovering is that things... like the universe, existance and God cannot be fully understood... from this planet, where it is at this time.
cosmo,
do you want God to exist?
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Comments
Good thought, Cate. I'm not so sure... it can be so overwhelming and exhausting...
Me? I'll be sitting in the corner staring at it. Being around a lot of people is not something I like to do very often.
me neither.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
This thread has become wonderful fodder for this brain of mine.
Thanks, all!
This is based on what you think what you feel ...
YOU don't know so no one can...
and collective good that goes with a religion.
And you say you do not even the least bit take a side ... give us a break
Do you not see? You speak of the human factor then totally disregard it
as far as religion is concerned. I don't belong to a religion but I meet the very best of people,
working their lives for others purely, unselfishly, who do.
Freedom of choice is the human factor, the most important factor to building character,
the path we walk and learn from. Within religion is the human factor
and should be recognized for the good done in the name of religion.
I think this is good for the world. I believe people are inherently good, not because they fear retribution from the almighty, but because we are wired that way.
If people need an external motivation to be good or to do good things, then pick something. Do it in the name of corn Flakes for all I care. I don't believe anyone has ever been executed in the name of corn Flakes.
It's probably because you will find more people claiming to know the truth about God on the religious side of the discussion. Most atheists I run into will say stuff like, 'I don't **believe** in God' and I have rarely come across one that claims to know, beyond any and all doubt, that God does not exist. I'm calling bullshit on the latter because I KNOW that person does not know. The fact is, he believes he know God does not exist, when the fact is he does not know.
Proof of God is elusive... as elusive as proof that God does not exist. Which is why the truth is... we just don't know.
Hail, Hail!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PL1ns00h-4
around the 34 second mark
I don't know. But, I will tell anyone that claims to know they exist... is either full of shit... or pass me that bong.
Hail, Hail!!!
They exist!
It's an Arabian Oryx, the animal that led to the idea of the mythical unicorn because when you see it's profile, the 2 horns like it's only one.
Yes.... but, does he piss rainbows?
Hail, Hail!!!
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/c ... ookie.html
"God, to me, has always been elusive. I understand perfectly why atheists are baffled by religion, but I’m just as baffled by them; I could never claim such certainty about the workings of the universe as to rule out any possibility of God. Faith is misunderstood as a synonym for certitude, but really it’s a concept that has doubt folded into it. My own uncertainty about how to conceive of God is deep. As this month of dawns and sunsets neared its end, I began to wonder if the fast has something to do with God’s very unknowability.
...When the fast empties you out during Ramadan, no matter how well you adjust to the deprivation, you never stop feeling the tug of hunger. That tug is a reminder—a reminder, perhaps, of that void inside the Kaaba, and the silent mystery of the divine. On Day Twenty-seven, I happened upon a verse in the Koran about a mirage in the desert: “The thirsty man takes it to be water until he comes to it and finds it to be nothing, and where he thought it to be, there he finds God.”"
This cuts to the core of which I believe... God's unknowability.
I am much too feeble of a living being to know and understand God and truth in my current state of existance... and... so is everyone else.
Hail, Hail!!!
You know, I keep coming back to you're line - "so is everyone else". You are saying you're too feeble of a living being to understand God... fair enough. No offense to you - but, how do you know everyone else is the same? You're not them. They could have had an experience you didn't. They could know something you don't.
I get your point though that faith is not "knowing"... which you've been trying to drive home. I don't think anyone disagrees that's there's an element of belief that is in question. I just think maybe there may be a person out there who actually did "know"... maybe they had an experience or something. It's possible. Just something to think about.
It's been an interesting thread.
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It is possible for my cat to learn to play the guitar in the realm of 'anything being possible'. The difference being, possibility versus probabllity. My cat may possibly figure out the chords to 'Stray Cat Blues' someday, but, there is a very low probability that she will.
As for those whom claim to have had meetings with God... how many of them have been able to explain it? If you said, 'Not many... if any', you are probably right. They may have encountered God... but do not know or understand God. They may have fortified their belief... but, I have yet to read or hear of anyone who has reached that level of enlightenment to explain what God's plan for the rest of us is.
...
I might add... it is equally arrogant for someone to claim to know that God does not exist. Just because we cannot explain God or prove of God's existance is not truth ot knowledge, either.
Hail, Hail!!!
i dont think it is physically possible for your cat to learn to play the guitar. and i dont think that anything is possible.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
That was for those whom believe that 'Anything is possible'. If anything truely IS possible... then, 'anything' would also include my cat playing the guitar.
Possiblity and probability get mixed up... just like knowledge and belief get mixed up when talk turn to that of God.
Hail, Hail!!!
aah ok... well thats not me, thats for sure.
the difference between knowledge and belief as far as i can see is that knowledge relies on fact whilst belief relies on faith, which requires no basis in fact at all.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Again... it comes down to belief versus knowledge. People either believe in the existance of God or they believe that God does not exist. Truth being, neither side knows the truth.
The advantage atheists have in this regard is the overwhelming burden of proof that the believers must present... and have failed to present. But, failure to prove does not mean non-existance. It is a pretty good indicator... but, lack of proof by the religious isn't proof that the atheist is correct.
Hail, Hail!!!
And faith is not a bad thing to possess. It's probably NOT the best thing to rely upon, but it does have its positive qualities.
Hail, Hail!!!
I think you said this before Cosmo... How about a good 'ol "I don't know"? How about just being open to the possibility that God exists, while also being open to the possibility that perhaps it doesn't.
And is having a firm belief either way really that important in the grand scale of things?
perhaps... i just see it as a waste of time and highly illogical tbh.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
But I am understanding of those who believe. Believers don't make me mad until they start acting like wing nuts.
right there with you sister.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
It's fine to believe what you want, I just see being so closed is, well, so shut down and zipped up tight. That's all. And it's not just about belief that "God" exists; it extends to believing in the possibility of anything really. It's negative energy. Which is fine, don't get me wrong... we all have that choice to believe in what floats our boat. But by limiting what exists...that attitude carries over into other areas of your life, no?
That is the religion I'm in... The Church of "I Don't Know".
It's like the current belief of the strings theory that unifies Quantum Mechanics and General Relativity... in order for the mathematical equations to work, there has to be multiple dimensions... which exapnds to multiple universes.
Are the theories correct or are the equations not pointing at the truth?
If the equations are ture... then that possiblity of my cat playing the guitar in one of those 11 or so dimensions may, in fact, be true... right?
The probability is still low because there is a very slim possibility that my cat... and guitars... exist in any of those other dimensions.
Truth is... I don't know. If there is someone who knows God... then, they sould know the answer to question about my cat's alter existance and her guitar playing skills in some parallel, yet different universe.
Maybe what science is discovering is that things... like the universe, existance and God cannot be fully understood... from this planet, where it is at this time.
Hail, Hail!!!
I agree... although I can and do say I don't know... because that is the absolute truth... I don't know. It applies to me, it applies to you, it applies to atheists, Christians, Jews, Muslims, Scientologists, Mormans and my cat. The truth being... Cosmo does not know if God exists or not. Meaning, you can say, 'Cosmo does not know if God exists or not'... and that would be a true statement. A Christian can say the same thing... and that is the truth.
I'm open to both beliefs... but, as far as knowledge and truth goes... I don't know.
Hail, Hail!!!
cosmo,
do you want God to exist?
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say