***The Official Philadelphia Phillies 2012 Thread***

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  • Jearlpam0925
    Jearlpam0925 Deep South Philly Posts: 17,549
    Cliffy6745 wrote:
    Jearlpam0925 wrote:
    The Jeagler wrote:
    you had to think the phils would know this though. unless amaro is a bigger idiot than we thought.

    i would assume we'd be prepared to do that. all these talks would be a waste of time otherwise

    Apparently the Stros had scout Doug Brocail out to watch Happ pitch. I'm assuming this is done deal if they get pass this impasse of the option. I would hope they pick it up. From what I've read, they don't want just help in 2011, but the following season. I guess we'll see. And just like last year, Amaro had a backup plan to get Lee. If they have a plan to get Oswalt, I would assume they have a contingency plan to get Haren.

    You do realize committing to 2012 will put the Phillie obligations in 2012 at $102 mil for just 9 players. That is not a good thing for any team working on a budget. That would be second to only the Yankees. Give up more and get a younger pitcher. This is shit the Yankees did few years ago. Roy Oswalt is not going to be worth $16 mil in 2012. The Phillies will have no flexibility.

    That's the thing. Will he still have a no-trade clause? If there was a way of exercising the option, yet leaving yourself open to trading him after 2011 season?

    Also, the more I look at the chance of trading away Werth and acquiring Upton the more I LOVE it. That would be a great deal in my eyes. As long as RAJ doesn't get fleeced like a weedle bitch.
  • Cliffy6745
    Cliffy6745 Posts: 34,030
    jamminpearls wrote:
    Stark was just on 97.5 and said the option is a deal breaker and that it would be a 2 team trade only.39 mill is not that bad for a top pitcher for 2 and a half years imo. 7 mill this year 16 the next two is good for a #1 pitcher. He also said we have the best or highiest rated prospects in A ball and below. RUBEN do it now,and any werth trade would be seperate.

    Oswalt is not going to be worth $16 mil in 2012. Look at what I posted above. They will have $102 mil allocated for 9 players.
  • Cliffy6745
    Cliffy6745 Posts: 34,030
    Jearlpam0925 wrote:
    Cliffy6745 wrote:

    You do realize committing to 2012 will put the Phillie obligations in 2012 at $102 mil for just 9 players. That is not a good thing for any team working on a budget. That would be second to only the Yankees. Give up more and get a younger pitcher. This is shit the Yankees did few years ago. Roy Oswalt is not going to be worth $16 mil in 2012. The Phillies will have no flexibility.

    That's the thing. Will he still have a no-trade clause? If there was a way of exercising the option, yet leaving yourself open to trading him after 2011 season?

    Also, the more I look at the chance of trading away Werth and acquiring Upton the more I LOVE it. That would be a great deal in my eyes. As long as RAJ doesn't get fleeced like a weedle bitch.

    Yes, he will still have the clause I believe. I am pretty sure the contract stays in place, the team responsible just changes.

    I read the Rays said no to that.
  • Cliffy6745
    Cliffy6745 Posts: 34,030
    That $102 mil I mentioned does not include Hamels, so add another $12-$15 to that at least. $117 for 9 players actually. I originally counted Lidges $1.5 Mil buyout.

    If they pick up the Oswalt option. It will be close to $120 mil to 9 players. That is just not feasible for the Phillies.

    Edit: That also does not include a shortstop.
  • Jearlpam0925
    Jearlpam0925 Deep South Philly Posts: 17,549
    Cliffy6745 wrote:
    Jearlpam0925 wrote:
    Cliffy6745 wrote:

    You do realize committing to 2012 will put the Phillie obligations in 2012 at $102 mil for just 9 players. That is not a good thing for any team working on a budget. That would be second to only the Yankees. Give up more and get a younger pitcher. This is shit the Yankees did few years ago. Roy Oswalt is not going to be worth $16 mil in 2012. The Phillies will have no flexibility.

    That's the thing. Will he still have a no-trade clause? If there was a way of exercising the option, yet leaving yourself open to trading him after 2011 season?

    Also, the more I look at the chance of trading away Werth and acquiring Upton the more I LOVE it. That would be a great deal in my eyes. As long as RAJ doesn't get fleeced like a weedle bitch.

    Yes, he will still have the clause I believe. I am pretty sure the contract stays in place, the team responsible just changes.

    I read the Rays said no to that.

    That'd be nasty though. I know Upton's a punk, but at 25, I believe under arbitration control for the next two years, and with an outfield of Upton, Vic, and Brown would be just fine by me.
  • Cliffy6745
    Cliffy6745 Posts: 34,030
    Jearlpam0925 wrote:
    That'd be nasty though. I know Upton's a punk, but at 25, I believe under arbitration control for the next two years, and with an outfield of Upton, Vic, and Brown would be just fine by me.

    I am pretty sure he is under control for 2 more years and yeah, if Victorino, Rollins and him could get on base consistently, it would pretty crazy.
  • Cliffy6745
    Cliffy6745 Posts: 34,030
    This will not go over well with some people but:

    Roy Oswalt
    2004: 6.4 WAR
    2005: 6.1 WAR
    2006: 5.7 WAR
    2007: 4.6 WAR
    2008: 3.6 WAR
    2009: 3.1 WAR

    Not a good idea to pick up the option.
  • Solat13
    Solat13 Posts: 6,996
    Cliffy6745 wrote:
    Jearlpam0925 wrote:
    That'd be nasty though. I know Upton's a punk, but at 25, I believe under arbitration control for the next two years, and with an outfield of Upton, Vic, and Brown would be just fine by me.

    I am pretty sure he is under control for 2 more years and yeah, if Victorino, Rollins and him could get on base consistently, it would pretty crazy.


    Yep, he's got two more years of arb until he's a free agent in 2013.
    - Busted down the pretext
    - 8/28/98
    - 9/2/00
    - 4/28/03, 5/3/03, 7/3/03, 7/5/03, 7/6/03, 7/9/03, 7/11/03, 7/12/03, 7/14/03
    - 9/28/04, 9/29/04, 10/1/04, 10/2/04
    - 9/11/05, 9/12/05, 9/13/05, 9/30/05, 10/1/05, 10/3/05
    - 5/12/06, 5/13/06, 5/27/06, 5/28/06, 5/30/06, 6/1/06, 6/3/06, 6/23/06, 7/22/06, 7/23/06, 12/2/06, 12/9/06
    - 8/2/07, 8/5/07
    - 6/19/08, 6/20/08, 6/22/08, 6/24/08, 6/25/08, 6/27/08, 6/28/08, 6/30/08, 7/1/08
    - 8/23/09, 8/24/09, 9/21/09, 9/22/09, 10/27/09, 10/28/09, 10/30/09, 10/31/09
    - 5/15/10, 5/17/10, 5/18/10, 5/20/10, 5/21/10, 10/23/10, 10/24/10
    - 9/11/11, 9/12/11
    - 10/18/13, 10/21/13, 10/22/13, 11/30/13, 12/4/13
  • Jearlpam0925
    Jearlpam0925 Deep South Philly Posts: 17,549
    Cliffy6745 wrote:
    Jearlpam0925 wrote:
    That'd be nasty though. I know Upton's a punk, but at 25, I believe under arbitration control for the next two years, and with an outfield of Upton, Vic, and Brown would be just fine by me.

    I am pretty sure he is under control for 2 more years and yeah, if Victorino, Rollins and him could get on base consistently, it would pretty crazy.

    And I gotta say, Rollins at 8.5 mil is a super deal. What ya think he gets past 2011? 13-16 mil per?
  • Solat13
    Solat13 Posts: 6,996
    Jearlpam0925 wrote:
    Cliffy6745 wrote:
    Jearlpam0925 wrote:
    That'd be nasty though. I know Upton's a punk, but at 25, I believe under arbitration control for the next two years, and with an outfield of Upton, Vic, and Brown would be just fine by me.

    I am pretty sure he is under control for 2 more years and yeah, if Victorino, Rollins and him could get on base consistently, it would pretty crazy.

    And I gotta say, Rollins at 8.5 mil is a super deal. What ya think he gets past 2011? 13-16 mil per?

    No way he gets 13-16 as a 33 year old SS unless a team severely overpays or he gets his stroke back from 2007.
    - Busted down the pretext
    - 8/28/98
    - 9/2/00
    - 4/28/03, 5/3/03, 7/3/03, 7/5/03, 7/6/03, 7/9/03, 7/11/03, 7/12/03, 7/14/03
    - 9/28/04, 9/29/04, 10/1/04, 10/2/04
    - 9/11/05, 9/12/05, 9/13/05, 9/30/05, 10/1/05, 10/3/05
    - 5/12/06, 5/13/06, 5/27/06, 5/28/06, 5/30/06, 6/1/06, 6/3/06, 6/23/06, 7/22/06, 7/23/06, 12/2/06, 12/9/06
    - 8/2/07, 8/5/07
    - 6/19/08, 6/20/08, 6/22/08, 6/24/08, 6/25/08, 6/27/08, 6/28/08, 6/30/08, 7/1/08
    - 8/23/09, 8/24/09, 9/21/09, 9/22/09, 10/27/09, 10/28/09, 10/30/09, 10/31/09
    - 5/15/10, 5/17/10, 5/18/10, 5/20/10, 5/21/10, 10/23/10, 10/24/10
    - 9/11/11, 9/12/11
    - 10/18/13, 10/21/13, 10/22/13, 11/30/13, 12/4/13
  • Jearlpam0925
    Jearlpam0925 Deep South Philly Posts: 17,549
    Solat13 wrote:
    Jearlpam0925 wrote:
    Cliffy6745 wrote:
    I am pretty sure he is under control for 2 more years and yeah, if Victorino, Rollins and him could get on base consistently, it would pretty crazy.

    And I gotta say, Rollins at 8.5 mil is a super deal. What ya think he gets past 2011? 13-16 mil per?

    No way he gets 13-16 as a 33 year old SS unless a team severely overpays or he gets his stroke back from 2007.

    Yeah, I suppose. But I didn't know he was so cheap. I think the Phils just end up resigning him just for his glove and okay bat alone. They really don't have anyone in the system that hits for a SS. That Galvis guy is apparently major league ready with the glove, but they don't know about the bat.
  • Cliffy6745
    Cliffy6745 Posts: 34,030
    The Jeagler wrote:

    same team that committed 125m to howard. their budget might be loosening a bit. maybe ed wade will pay some of his salary...we'll see...

    Even if its loosening a bit, aprox. $120 to 9 players is a lot for that team, especially without some key positions.

    2012
    Lidge, Brad: 1.5 Buyout
    Ruiz, Carlos: 3.7
    Polanco, Placido: 6.417
    Victorino, Shane: 9.5
    Blanton, Joe: 10.5
    Utley, Chase: 15.286
    Howard, Ryan: 20
    Halladay, Roy: 20
    Oswalt: 16
    Happ, J.A. : Arb 1
    Zagurski, Mike: Arb 1
    Kendrick, Kyle: Arb 2
    Francisco, Ben: Arb 2
    Hamels, Cole: Arb 4 $15?

    Hopefully you guys can read this.
  • Cliffy6745
    Cliffy6745 Posts: 34,030
    For what its worth, I am hearing Seth Everett said its basically dead. Astros want Dom Brown to pay any salary and he also said the D'Backs interim GM is not trading Haren unless the package is absolutely insane.

    Calling Ben Sheets.
  • Jearlpam0925
    Jearlpam0925 Deep South Philly Posts: 17,549
    Cliffy6745 wrote:
    For what its worth, I am hearing Seth Everett said its basically dead. Astros want Dom Brown to pay any salary and he also said the D'Backs interim GM is not trading Haren unless the package is absolutely insane.

    Calling Ben Sheets.

    Honestly, if it's not Oswalt or Haren, then I don't care. What I do care about is that they trade Werth - immediately.
  • The Fixer
    The Fixer Posts: 12,837
    Cliffy6745 wrote:
    The Jeagler wrote:
    Cliffy6745 wrote:
    Oswalt wants his option picked up to waive his no trade clause. I bet that is a deal breaker.

    you had to think the phils would know this though. unless amaro is a bigger idiot than we thought.

    i would assume we'd be prepared to do that. all these talks would be a waste of time otherwise

    You think they would be willing to commit $38 to Oswalt through 2012? If they want a committment that long they should go after Haren who is less expensive.

    Haren isn't getting moved. His contract is a bargain and Ariz's management is in flux.

    I might have posted this already...don't remember

    http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.ph ... touchable/

    I think the only realistic SPs the phils could get are oswalt, sheets, and Lilly. Carmona's deal is similar to Haren's for cleveland (and I think he blows anyway). Vazquez could be available if the yanks decide to go after werth. Myers is probably not coming back to philly because that would be admitting a mistake. other than that I don't think there's much out there.
  • The Fixer
    The Fixer Posts: 12,837
    Cliffy6745 wrote:
    jamminpearls wrote:
    Stark was just on 97.5 and said the option is a deal breaker and that it would be a 2 team trade only.39 mill is not that bad for a top pitcher for 2 and a half years imo. 7 mill this year 16 the next two is good for a #1 pitcher. He also said we have the best or highiest rated prospects in A ball and below. RUBEN do it now,and any werth trade would be seperate.

    Oswalt is not going to be worth $16 mil in 2012. Look at what I posted above. They will have $102 mil allocated for 9 players.

    amaro doesn't pay guys on expected performance, he only takes past performance into account. See howard, ibanez, lidge, blanton, moyer contracts. man, he is a train wreck. he'll probably sign oswalt to a 3 year, $60 million extension after he exercises his option
  • The Fixer
    The Fixer Posts: 12,837
    Cliffy6745 wrote:
    This will not go over well with some people but:

    Roy Oswalt
    2004: 6.4 WAR
    2005: 6.1 WAR
    2006: 5.7 WAR
    2007: 4.6 WAR
    2008: 3.6 WAR
    2009: 3.1 WAR

    Not a good idea to pick up the option.

    yeah, man...that's what I was talking about. I used the IP and K/9, but your explanation is better. AIDS
  • The Fixer
    The Fixer Posts: 12,837
    Cliffy6745 wrote:
    The Jeagler wrote:

    same team that committed 125m to howard. their budget might be loosening a bit. maybe ed wade will pay some of his salary...we'll see...

    Even if its loosening a bit, aprox. $120 to 9 players is a lot for that team, especially without some key positions.

    2012
    Lidge, Brad: 1.5 Buyout
    Ruiz, Carlos: 3.7
    Polanco, Placido: 6.417
    Victorino, Shane: 9.5
    Blanton, Joe: 10.5
    Utley, Chase: 15.286
    Howard, Ryan: 20
    Halladay, Roy: 20
    Oswalt: 16
    Happ, J.A. : Arb 1
    Zagurski, Mike: Arb 1
    Kendrick, Kyle: Arb 2
    Francisco, Ben: Arb 2
    Hamels, Cole: Arb 4 $15?

    Hopefully you guys can read this.

    what number jumps off the page there? every time I see it I get sick to my stomach. AND IT GOES UP 5 MILLION A YEAR AFTER 2012.
  • The Fixer
    The Fixer Posts: 12,837
    phils called up vance worley from AA today. he was their 3rd round pick in 2008. Carpenter sent down...thanks for playing, now beat it pal.

    wait until you see tonight's lineup...my boy francisco in the 3 hole. holla
  • The Juggler
    The Juggler Posts: 49,598
    Jearlpam0925 wrote:
    Cliffy6745 wrote:
    For what its worth, I am hearing Seth Everett said its basically dead. Astros want Dom Brown to pay any salary and he also said the D'Backs interim GM is not trading Haren unless the package is absolutely insane.

    Calling Ben Sheets.

    Honestly, if it's not Oswalt or Haren, then I don't care. What I do care about is that they trade Werth - immediately.

    if not oswalt or haren---myers. BANG. DONE.

    but everyone saying this is dead are the same people saying cliff lee to the yanks was a done deal. ya never know. stay tuned.
    www.myspace.com
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