U.S. to aid $400 million to Palastine..

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  • TriumphantAngel
    TriumphantAngel Posts: 1,760
    Cosmo wrote:
    TriumphantAngel wrote:
    i agree cosmo. whatever happened to using direct, conclusive evidence to get a conviction? if evidence exists (without resorting to torture), give people a fair trial, and if convicted, then sentence them to max security prisons. don't keep people imprisoned for years without charging them or granting them access to any sort of legal counsel. don't lie about things. don't torture them so that they agree to things they have not done. no one has any right to detain someone for years without charges or a fair trial. If there is no evidence, or if they are found innocent, set them free.

    somebody has to be untouched by corruption. somebody has to love the truth. right?
    ...
    Yes, that is correct.
    That being said... for those who ARE guilty of lobbing rockets over the border... those asshole need to be brought to justice. Not only do they kill people in the Israeli side of the border... they bring the wrath of the Israeli Air Force on the people of the neighborhoods they launch their attacks from.
    Those rocket firing assholes (cowards) are the other side of the 'Both sides' I make references to. Rocket attacks result in air strikes that result in rocket attacks that result in airstrikes that result in rocket attacks... well, you get the picture. Both sides of the violence coin share the responsibility.
    there is only one occupier. Israel. Israel has turned Gaza into a concentration camp. it's not that difficult for me to understand what drives them to fire rockets into Israel. very limited attacks have been launched against Israel, but the Israeli response has always been deadly. these rockets are ineffective and useless. look i believe any loss of life is sad and i wish it didn't happen Cosmo but i can understand why it does. that's not making excuses or apologizing or defending why it's happening. it's reality.

    i've already said so many times that Israel clearly has the advantage here. it's not war Cosmo. war is when two armies fight each other. we're talking about 1.5 million people, caged in like animals, subjected to all sorts of inhuman treatment.

    one way you could stop the ineffective rocket fire would be if the US supplied the Palestinians with billions of dollars worth of money and weapons like they do with Israel then maybe they could just target Israeli military targets with F-16 bombers rather than use amateur rockets. fair fight right? :roll: that's the LAST thing i would want.

    if people really want peace then we HAVE to start holding Israel responsible for the conflict.
  • Commy
    Commy Posts: 4,984
    Cosmo wrote:
    Yes, that is correct.
    That being said... for those who ARE guilty of lobbing rockets over the border... those asshole need to be brought to justice. Not only do they kill people in the Israeli side of the border... they bring the wrath of the Israeli Air Force on the people of the neighborhoods they launch their attacks from.
    Those rocket firing assholes (cowards) are the other side of the 'Both sides' I make references to. Rocket attacks result in air strikes that result in rocket attacks that result in airstrikes that result in rocket attacks... well, you get the picture. Both sides of the violence coin share the responsibility.

    why are you so worried about those rocket attacks?


    during Israel's latest assault on Gaza, which prompted an all war for a few days....13 Israeli's were killed, 10 of whom militants. during that time 1300 Palestinians were killed, the vast majority civilian.


    That's right. In all out conflict big bad Hamas killed all of 3 innocent people, Israel killed 1300. But sure Cosmo, lets focus on the rocket attacks.


    Don't get me wrong, 3 is too many, but considering they are retaliatory to begin with it makes much more sense to focus on what's causing them anyway, which is Israel.
  • Cosmo
    Cosmo Posts: 12,225
    Commy wrote:
    why are you so worried about those rocket attacks?

    during Israel's latest assault on Gaza, which prompted an all war for a few days....13 Israeli's were killed, 10 of whom militants. during that time 1300 Palestinians were killed, the vast majority civilian.

    That's right. In all out conflict big bad Hamas killed all of 3 innocent people, Israel killed 1300. But sure Cosmo, lets focus on the rocket attacks.

    Don't get me wrong, 3 is too many, but considering they are retaliatory to begin with it makes much more sense to focus on what's causing them anyway, which is Israel.
    ...
    So, wait... I'm against rocket attacks... you are agruing with me... does that mean you are FOR rocket attacks?
    I guess I must be extemely precice in choosing my words here... it seems as if every one is a potential landmine. so... hmmmm... okay, how do I put this...
    ...
    I am against violence. Violence perpetrated by either side, whether it kills 1 or 1,000. Body count is something that people typically, but not always, use as justification for use of force or to rationalize vengence.
    It is the TACTIC of violence I am sick of. Tactics of violence are used by both sides in this matter. Are people understanding this? The tactic of retaliating violent aggression with violence... that is the cycle that needs to be broken. It does not work.. it hasn't worked for 62 years and it's not going to work for the next 27 milleniums.
    So, am I against rocket attacks (or suicide bombers on city busses)? Damn straight, fuckin' aye.
    Am i against air strikes (and occupation of other people's land)? Fuck yeah, I am.
    Am I the only one here that seems to acknowledge that violence is violence... killing is killing and that both sides have blood on their hands? Apparently so. I admit... i am not taking sides as along as both sides use killing as their tactic.
    I will support the bigger of the two that has the heart to say, 'I am not going to meet your violent attacks on me with more violence, anymore... I have fire my last shot'. That is the side I will choose.
    ...
    So... FIRE AWAY!!! I am certain that something said is somehow going to somehow make me an Israel Apologist... or a Zionist... or wishes the Death of Palestine.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,167
    A) Triumphant, I love it when the pot calls the kettle black.
    B) A concentration camp?! Are you serious!! If Israel ever starts murdering Palestinians on an industrial scale, tattooing numbers into their arms, using them as slave labor until they're too weak to work any longer, gassing them to death, and burning their corpses, THEN we can bring the Holocaust into this.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,167
    Cosmo, I believe I've already said it, but I agree with you entirely. As for getting many others here to really look honestly at the violence of BOTH sides, good luck. I've found that the majority here are completely unwilling to take the Palestinians off the pedestal they've put them on, and actually hold them responsible for their own actions.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • TriumphantAngel
    TriumphantAngel Posts: 1,760
    yosi wrote:
    A) Triumphant, I love it when the pot calls the kettle black.
    B) A concentration camp?! Are you serious!! If Israel ever starts tattooing numbers into their arms THEN we can bring the holocaust into this
    Palestinians will now be evicted from land occupied illegally by Israel. Israel "effectively control's the Palestinian population register' in the West Bank". what's next? tattooing numbers on the palestinians to keep track of them?

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/ap ... ups-attack

    Apartheid Palestine

    Israeli human rights groups say that Palestinians and any foreigners living in the West Bank could be deemed 'infiltrators' and deported within 72 hours or jailed for seven years if they are found without the correct permit under the new orders. Photograph: Musa Al-Shaer/AFP/Getty Images


    Israel's leading human rights groups are trying to stop two new Israeli military orders which will make any resident of the occupied West Bank who does not have an Israeli-issued permit liable for deportation or jail.

    The new Order Regarding Prevention of Infiltration and Order Regarding Security Provisions, which comes into force on Tuesday have "severe ramifications," the rights groups say. Palestinians, and any foreigners living in the West Bank, could be labelled infiltrators and deported within 72 hours or jailed for seven years if they are found without the correct permit. It does not define what Israel considers a valid permit.

    "The orders … are worded so broadly such as theoretically allowing the military to empty the West Bank of almost all its Palestinian inhabitants," said the 10 rights groups, which include Ha-Moked, B'Tselem, the Association for Civil Rights in Israel, and Rabbis for Human Rights. Until now the vast majority of Palestinians in the West Bank have not been required to hold a permit just to be present in their homes, the groups say.

    "The military will be able to prosecute and deport any Palestinian defined as an infiltrator in stark contradiction to the Geneva conventions," they said. The law broadens the definition of an "infiltrator" and could allow Israel to transfer some Palestinians from the West Bank to Gaza, or to deport foreign passport holders married to West Bank Palestinians, or to deport Israelis or foreigners living in the West Bank. The groups said tens of thousands of Palestinians were in those categories.

    Israel effectively controls the Palestinian population register and since 2000, apart from once in 2007, the Israeli authorities have frozen applications for renewal of visitor permits for foreign nationals, or applications to grant permanent status in the occupied territories. As a result, many Palestinians live in the West Bank without formal status and are now vulnerable under the new orders. The human rights groups wrote to the Israeli defence minister, Ehud Barak, today asking him to delay or revoke the orders, which they said were "unlawful and allow extreme and arbitrary injury to a vast number of people".

    The Israeli military said the purpose of the orders was "the extradition of those residing illegally in Judea and Samaria," an Israeli term for the West Bank. The orders had been "corrected" in order to "assure judicial oversight of the extradition process," it said.

    However, Saeb Erekat, the chief Palestinian negotiator, said the orders would make it easy for Israel to imprison or expel Palestinians from the West Bank. "These military orders belong in an apartheid state," he said. "They are an assault on ordinary Palestinians and an affront to the most fundamental principles of human rights. Israel's endgame is not peace. It is the colonisation of the West Bank."
  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    yosi wrote:
    B) A concentration camp?! Are you serious!! If Israel ever starts murdering Palestinians on an industrial scale, tattooing numbers into their arms, using them as slave labor until they're too weak to work any longer, gassing them to death, and burning their corpses, THEN we can bring the Holocaust into this.

    Concentration camps are not just in relation to the Holocaust. You are bringing it into the discussion, no one else.

    Concentration camps existed before and, whilst the Nazis made use of them, they were not the only ones.


    "concentration camp (plural concentration camps)

    1. A camp where large numbers of persons—such as political prisoners, prisoners of war, refugees—are detained for the purpose of concentrating them in one place.
    2. A camp or premises in which persons considered to be undesirable by those who control it are hidden away, mistreated, and even killed.
    3. A situation wherein crowding and extremely harsh conditions take place."

    Sounds like Gaza to me.
  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,167
    Seriously dude? Unless you are significantly mentally impaired you don't start talking about concentration camps and NOT expect people to understand that you're talking about the Holocaust. That would be like me likening someone to Hitler, and then saying that I wasn't talking about that Hitler, I was talking about Hitler McHitlerstein, the barber at the end of the street.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,167
    Anyways, getting back to the more productive conversation we had going here earlier, before certain people felt the need to start personally insulting those they disagree with, it seems to me that simply looking at Gaza compared to the West Bank we have two models of how the Palestinians can go. On the one hand there is Abbas and Fayyad, capable technocrats who have embraced nonviolence and who are actually building something for their people, and tangibly improving their lives. On the other hand we have Hamas, a terrorist organization sporting a racist charter, which refuses to recognize Israel, refuses to forswear violence, and refuses to abide by previous treaty agreements. Whatever you think about Israel and its actions, I don't get why so many of you seem perfectly happy to be fellow travelers and apologists for Hamas, an organization that represents the exact opposite of what I take to be the liberal and secular politics of most everyone on this board. It seems to me that the sooner the West Bank model takes root in Gaza, the better it will be for everyone.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    edited June 2010
    yosi wrote:
    Seriously dude? Unless you are significantly mentally impaired you don't start talking about concentration camps and NOT expect people to understand that you're talking about the Holocaust. That would be like me likening someone to Hitler, and then saying that I wasn't talking about that Hitler, I was talking about Hitler McHitlerstein, the barber at the end of the street.

    Sorry Yosi, the world does not automatically revolve around Israel and the jews. There are many countries and regimes that have used/are using concentration camps. You might remember Cambodia and the Khmer Rouge, or maybe Chili during Pinochet's regime or Argentina whilst were are in South America. What about the camps during the Bosnian war? Not to mention North Korea or China. The list goes on..... Wake up to the rest of the world.

    And by the way, I am neither a dude or significantly mentally impaired.

    Also, you will find that Abbas and Fayyad are not particularly popular in Palestine (West Bank) and the relations between the two are very tense (they are political rivals). Whilst they try to put out a more or less united front, there are major disagreements between the two and things are starting to split at the seams.
    Post edited by redrock on
  • Pepe Silvia
    Pepe Silvia Posts: 3,758
    yosi wrote:
    Anyways, getting back to the more productive conversation we had going here earlier, before certain people felt the need to start personally insulting those they disagree with, it seems to me that simply looking at Gaza compared to the West Bank we have two models of how the Palestinians can go. On the one hand there is Abbas and Fayyad, capable technocrats who have embraced nonviolence and who are actually building something for their people, and tangibly improving their lives. On the other hand we have Hamas, a terrorist organization sporting a racist charter, which refuses to recognize Israel, refuses to forswear violence, and refuses to abide by previous treaty agreements. Whatever you think about Israel and its actions, I don't get why so many of you seem perfectly happy to be fellow travelers and apologists for Hamas, an organization that represents the exact opposite of what I take to be the liberal and secular politics of most everyone on this board. It seems to me that the sooner the West Bank model takes root in Gaza, the better it will be for everyone.


    this is funny that you complain about certain people personally insulting those they disagree with when you do that repeatedly.

    for example the post you made just 9min before this one you said

    "Seriously dude? Unless you are significantly mentally impaired you don't start talking about concentration camps and NOT expect people to understand that you're talking about the Holocaust"

    as redrock pointed out many countries have used concentration camps, jews don't have the patent on them. anyway, do you have any opinion on the definition of 'concentration camp' redrock posted?

    "concentration camp (plural concentration camps)

    1. A camp where large numbers of persons—such as political prisoners, prisoners of war, refugees—are detained for the purpose of concentrating them in one place.
    2. A camp or premises in which persons considered to be undesirable by those who control it are hidden away, mistreated, and even killed.
    3. A situation wherein crowding and extremely harsh conditions take place."


    or will this be one of your arguments over semantics like killing 1,300 palestinians isn't a massacre but killing 11 israeli's is :roll:
    don't compete; coexist

    what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?

    "I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama

    when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
    i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
  • badbrains
    badbrains Posts: 10,255
    I'm curious, how many Israeli civilians have been killed in the last 3-5 yrs by home made rockets used by the Palestinians? I really want to know. Is it more or less then 10,20,30 or more? And in my opinion as I'm speaking for myself, it is a concentration camp. Anyway you look at or try to defend it, it's a concentration camp. It's a modern day concentration camp, it's not the 40's and this isn't WWII, but it is what the Israeli GOVERNMENT not citizens, can get away with. Although it seems like they're getting away with anything and EVERYTHING. Enough is enough....we're talking about human lives here. Doesn't anyone believe in the god they're fighting for or over the land that they claim god gave them??? What god allows this, or better yet condones it??? Not my god...
  • Cosmo
    Cosmo Posts: 12,225
    badbrains wrote:
    I'm curious, how many Israeli civilians have been killed in the last 3-5 yrs by home made rockets used by the Palestinians? I really want to know. Is it more or less then 10,20,30 or more?
    ...
    Addressing this one specific point...
    What does it matter to you? Are you keeping score? Are dead bodies like points on a scoreboard to you?
    I mean, I don't know what you are trying to say, here. "Ahhh... it ain't all that bad... these rockets only kill, what?... 10.. 20... 30, tops. The guys firing... they ain't that bad... besides, it's not like their killing thousands, right? What... so there's a few dead people, big deal. Especially when our guys are getting their asses handed to them out there."
    I'm being serious here... would you feel better if their rockets were more effective and killed thousands... if the suicide bombers took out a city block instead of one measly bus? If the body count was closer... would that make it better? What is the point? To even the score? If not, then what?
    ...
    I don't know how to say it simpler...
    Me no like kill.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • badbrains
    badbrains Posts: 10,255
    edited June 2010
    Cosmo, seriouslly dude, chill the fuck out. I do care about human life. I was asking a question I didn't know the answer to. You jump all over me for no reason. Get off my back, stop worrying about why I asked that question and go learn more about this subject. Why aren't you jumping all over yosi for defending Israelis killing of people. Yet you jump all over me for asking a question. Hmmm, makes me wonder why you're selective on who you jump all over.....you dnt know the answer to my question, leave it alone and move on. You jump all over me, really? Wow.
    Post edited by badbrains on
  • badbrains
    badbrains Posts: 10,255
    To even the score you ask???? They'll NEVER be able to even the score....once again I'll say it loud and clear for all to read. I, as a Muslim, follow the teaching that if a Muslim kills 1 single human being, MY god will punish that Muslim as if he has killed ALL of humanity. Is that clear enough for you where I stand? Do you prefer me to translate it for you into another language of your choice???? Man you have no clue about me to attack me like that putting quotes as if I made those statements...dnt judge me, you dnt know me. Should I call you a Zionist cuz you dnt dare attack yosi?(dnt get mad at me yosi, just using it as an example my brotha), yosi knows where I stand. And I'd like to think everybody knows where I stand when it comes to killing ANY humans. Enough killings on EVERY side!!!!
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    yosi wrote:
    Cosmo, I believe I've already said it, but I agree with you entirely. As for getting many others here to really look honestly at the violence of BOTH sides, good luck. I've found that the majority here are completely unwilling to take the Palestinians off the pedestal they've put them on, and actually hold them responsible for their own actions.


    well of course the palestinians are responsible for their own actions. however one must really honestly look at why they find it necessary to use violence. im not condoning violence on either side but i understand why BOTH sides are using it.
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • fuck
    fuck Posts: 4,069
    edited June 2010
    yosi wrote:
    Anyways, getting back to the more productive conversation we had going here earlier, before certain people felt the need to start personally insulting those they disagree with, it seems to me that simply looking at Gaza compared to the West Bank we have two models of how the Palestinians can go. On the one hand there is Abbas and Fayyad, capable technocrats who have embraced nonviolence and who are actually building something for their people, and tangibly improving their lives. On the other hand we have Hamas, a terrorist organization sporting a racist charter, which refuses to recognize Israel, refuses to forswear violence, and refuses to abide by previous treaty agreements. Whatever you think about Israel and its actions, I don't get why so many of you seem perfectly happy to be fellow travelers and apologists for Hamas, an organization that represents the exact opposite of what I take to be the liberal and secular politics of most everyone on this board. It seems to me that the sooner the West Bank model takes root in Gaza, the better it will be for everyone.
    Lol, spoken like a true Zionist. Of course you would find Abbas and Fayyad "capable." They've only helped further Zionist ambitions and squash any Palestinian resistance to the occupation and Israeli aggression. They are nothing but puppets. It is not your business to tell the Palestinians who is the more capable leader. They will respond based on how Israel proceeds with the occupation, settlement building, and their general oppressing of Palestinians through so many different ways (extrajudicial killings, arrests, bulldozing homes, etc etc etc)... Hamas came as the only legitimate resistance to Israeli oppression. YOUR actions have resulted in Hamas being elected in Gaza. NOT the Palestinians' bloodthirst. Stop placing blame on everyone but yourselves. I don't mean with some fucking stupid ass sentence like "I understand the occupation must end" you only use these to try to propagate yourself as "moderate" or "sensible", "able to see both sides." There are two sides on this conflict: Israeli aggression, and Palestinians living under occupation, subjugated to inhumane treatment everyday. Hamas and all these other organizations are just subgroups, spinoffs from these two sides. Israeli aggression is what led to Hamas, Palestinians living under an oppressive regime is what led to them supporting a resistance group.
    Post edited by fuck on
  • fuck
    fuck Posts: 4,069
    Cosmo wrote:
    badbrains wrote:
    I'm curious, how many Israeli civilians have been killed in the last 3-5 yrs by home made rockets used by the Palestinians? I really want to know. Is it more or less then 10,20,30 or more?
    ...
    Addressing this one specific point...
    What does it matter to you? Are you keeping score? Are dead bodies like points on a scoreboard to you?
    I mean, I don't know what you are trying to say, here. "Ahhh... it ain't all that bad... these rockets only kill, what?... 10.. 20... 30, tops. The guys firing... they ain't that bad... besides, it's not like their killing thousands, right? What... so there's a few dead people, big deal. Especially when our guys are getting their asses handed to them out there."
    I'm being serious here... would you feel better if their rockets were more effective and killed thousands... if the suicide bombers took out a city block instead of one measly bus? If the body count was closer... would that make it better? What is the point? To even the score? If not, then what?
    ...
    I don't know how to say it simpler...
    Me no like kill.
    The point is that when 13 Israelis were killed within the same time period that 1300 Palestinians were killed, it is obvious who is the aggressor in the conflict. The rocket attacks are a distraction and not central to this conflict whatsoever. They've only been somewhat relevant (or atleast as relevant as Israel tries to make them) during the past 5 years while Israeli aggression has been rampant for DECADES.
  • fuck
    fuck Posts: 4,069
    catefrances wrote:
    yosi wrote:
    Cosmo, I believe I've already said it, but I agree with you entirely. As for getting many others here to really look honestly at the violence of BOTH sides, good luck. I've found that the majority here are completely unwilling to take the Palestinians off the pedestal they've put them on, and actually hold them responsible for their own actions.


    well of course the palestinians are responsible for their own actions. however one must really honestly look at why they find it necessary to use violence. im not condoning violence on either side but i understand why BOTH sides are using it.
    sure, I understand why both sides use violence. Israel uses it to steal Palestinian land and beat the Palestinians into submission. Palestinians use it as a resistance method. now the ethical arguments of all the different Palestinian groups' methods is a different story but the fact that they are all RESISTANCE groups is what is most relevant. If you want Palestinian resistance to stop, you must stop Israeli aggression first.
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    _outlaw wrote:
    catefrances wrote:
    yosi wrote:
    Cosmo, I believe I've already said it, but I agree with you entirely. As for getting many others here to really look honestly at the violence of BOTH sides, good luck. I've found that the majority here are completely unwilling to take the Palestinians off the pedestal they've put them on, and actually hold them responsible for their own actions.


    well of course the palestinians are responsible for their own actions. however one must really honestly look at why they find it necessary to use violence. im not condoning violence on either side but i understand why BOTH sides are using it.
    ... If you want Palestinian resistance to stop, you must stop Israeli aggression first.


    so very true
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say

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