U.S. to aid $400 million to Palastine..

Pepe Silvia

yosi wrote:

Why do you assume the tapes Israel has released are doctored? Edited certainly, but that is a far cry from doctored, which carries an implication of falsification.

you can also see a mouse cursor for a few moments on another of the videos israel released

but i would like you to explain how they released 3 tapes of the same event all being different if it's not doctoring?

:roll:

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=289874


Israel under fire for doctoring flotilla recordings

Tel Aviv - Ma'an - Israel's military came under intense scrutiny Saturday after releasing a new, heavily edited version of a video it had distributed to journalists in the days following its deadly raid on a Gaza-bound aid convoy.

Initially distributing footage of its navy radioing the Turkish vessel Mavi Marmara prior to a raid that left nine dead Monday, the military released a new version Friday that it said proves its claims that many aboard were religious extremists.

The audio includes two lines meant to demonstrate fanaticism on the part of Muslim passengers on board the ship, many of whom Israel's army has claimed had "terrorist" ties. "Shut up. Go back to Aushwitz," one man purportedly tells a navy officer via radio before another, with a heavy Southern accent, states that "We're helping Arabs go against the US. Don't forget 9/11 guys."

Bloggers soon picked up on discrepancies between the two. Ma'an also investigated, approaching the army early Saturday and confirming with Huwaida Arraf, a Palestinian activist and chair of the Free Gaza Movement, that her voice was used in the recording. She is heard speaking normally via radio.

Saturday's version supposedly came from the Marmara, at least according to the military. But Arraf was actually a passenger on another of the flotilla's boats, the Challenger 1.

Under mounting pressure, the army ultimately released yet another version of the recording late Saturday, bringing to three the total number of different takes on what the military insists is the same event.

The army issued what it called a "clarification/correction," explaining that "There have been questions regarding the authenticity of the recording as well as its attribution to a communication with the Mavi Marmara," a statement said.

"So to clarify: the audio was edited down to cut out periods of silence over the radio as well as incomprehensible comments so as to make it easier for people to listen to the exchange. We have now uploaded the entire segment of 5 minutes and 58 seconds in which the exchange took place and the comments were made.

"This transmission had originally cited the Mavi Marmara ship as being the source of these remarks, however, due to an open channel, the specific ship or ships in the 'Freedom Flotilla' responding to the Israeli Navy could not be identified."

But discrepancies in the Israeli army's story remain.

Like the second version, the latest video includes three responses. The responses, previously attributed to the Mavi Marmara, are now attributed to the flotilla as a whole. The first comes from man with a strange accent who supposedly told his Israeli counterpart to go "back" to the Auschwitz death camp.

Then Arraf follows. In the new version, she addresses the Israeli navy, explaining that "this is the Freedom Flotilla. We are comprised of six motor vessels, carrying only passengers and humanitarian aid destined for the Gaza Strip. We do not carry anything that constitutes a threat to your armed forces. Therefore you are not justified in using any force against us.

"The blockade of Gaza is illegal under international law. We have permission from the Gaza Port Authority to enter. We repeat we do not constitute any threat to your armed forces. You are not [Break in transmission; unidentified male English speaker says, "Navy is the best."] against unarmed civilians. Over."

The third response, seemingly disconnected from the prior two events, comes from the man with the heavy Southern accent who says the ship's passengers are "helping Arabs go against the US," adding, "Don't forget 9/11 guys."

Reacting early Saturday afternoon, Arraf remarked, "I was by the radio the whole time there was any communication. Mine was the only boat in which I answered and not the captain and they all answered in a very professional manner." Arraf told Ma'an that while she might have spoken of having permission from the Gaza Port Authority on a previous attempt to break the blockade, she is certain that she did not say it on Monday morning. "When they radioed us, we were still 100 miles away," she explained.

The Israeli army seized all recording devices from all activists and journalists on the flotilla. It has released only its own edited footage of parts of the raid.

In the first video released in the immediate aftermath, a soldier says, "Mavi Marmara, you are approaching an area of hostility which is under a naval blockade." There is no recorded response.

The soldier continues, "The Gaza area, coastal region, and Gaza harbor are closed to all maritime traffic." Again, no response.

The soldier radios once more, saying, "The Israeli government supports delivery of humanitarian supplies to the civilian population in the Gaza Strip and invites you to enter the Ashdod port …"

In the first updated version, five days later, three alleged responses from passengers are, according to the video, heard on board the Mavi Marmara. This clip shows only a still of the soldier who appears in the first footage.

The soldier, who is not named, does not address the Mavi Marmara as he did in the video released Monday. Instead, he says, "This is the Israeli navy; you are approaching an area which is under a naval blockade."

Asked about claims that army video had been faked, an Israeli army representative remarked, "There is no basis for the allegations."

yosi

Pepe, if you're not trying to justify the rocket attacks then what are you trying to do?

Look, I can also understand why the Palestinians would lash out violently. But when they do this they're just shooting themselves in the foot. Do you think that, in practical terms, firing these rockets helps the Palestinians in any way whatsoever? And if not, why are you so loath to argue for them to stop the rocket fire?

redrock

yosi wrote:

Pepe, if you're not trying to justify the rocket attacks then what are you trying to do?

Look, I can also understand why the Palestinians would lash out violently. But when they do this they're just shooting themselves in the foot. Do you think that, in practical terms, firing these rockets helps the Palestinians in any way whatsoever? And if not, why are you so loath to argue for them to stop the rocket fire?

Rocket fire is sporadic, limited and touches only a few people (yes - a few too many) - doesn't stop the large majority of Israelis going about their daily lives very nicely, doesn't destroy their country. Oppression and humiliation of the people of Gaza is constant, harsh, they wake up every day seeing the destruction, not having enough food or medicines, not being able to send their children to school and hope to provide a future for them, being 'bullied' by settlers and their neighbouring country, etc. Israel is the aggressor, Israel must disengage first. In practical terms, nothing the Palestinians do can help them against the might of Israel.

yosi

What is the point of your response? I'm not arguing that the rocket fire is bad because of how lethal they are. I'm arguing that they're bad because of their psychological effect on the Israeli public. So when you tell me that the rockets aren't that lethal, and only affect a limited number of people you haven't addressed my point at all. And why do you keep telling me how bad life is for the Palestinians. I KNOW HOW BAD IT IS. My whole point, which somehow evades you no matter how many times I say it, is that the Palestinians could improve their situation, or at the very least could greatly increase the likelihood of an improvement in their situation, if they started to act differently from how they have acted till now (for specifics see my earlier posts in this thread). You talk about the Palestinians as if they have no agency of their own, as if, alone amongst all the people of the world, their actions have no consequences. But that just isn't true. The Palestinians have not somehow, through some magical operation, been rendered incapable of making choices, and how they choose to act can and does have consequences for them, for good and ill.

But look, if you like, explain to me why it is that you believe that the Palestinians are incapable of not firing rockets at Israel until the occupation is ended?

redrock

Yosi.... I am addressing your point - you need to listen. You are saying that the sporadic rocket fire, affecting only a very limited number of people, has such a terrible effect on Israel psyche that they need to gather their might and oppress and humiliate 1.5 million people, constantly, making them live in a prison for which they are the guards/governors. And that due to this terrible, frightening psychological effect on the whole of the population, Israel MUST continue as they do until Gaza yields. You are saying that the people of Gaza, doing what they can to resist this goliath of a country/military (very little they can do), are shooting themselves in the foot trying to do so. You are saying these oppressed people, resisting for somewhat dignity and freedom, MUST stop before Israel can even consider anything? If the people of Israel are so scared (but still manage to have holidays, work, go abroad - hey... even go see Pearl Jam), how do you think the people of Gaza feel?

At the moment, why would they act differently towards Israel? Never gave the impression that Paelstinians have no agency/will of their own - you like to read this in our posts. They do - that's why they resist Israel aggression. They are making choices in response to Israel. If you are attacked by a guy armed to the teeth will you lie down and say 'give it to me' or will you try to defend yourself with whatever means you have? I'd like to know that.

Again, I will say ISRAEL IS THE AGGRESSOR. End the occupation, illegal settlers back to Israel, oh.. and there is this little thing about the UN resolutions? There will then be no need for resistance. The ball is in Israel's court, whether you like it or not. You are talking of submission (yes... even if you don't say the word), before Israel can be all magnaminous later.

yosi

Please read this carefully, because you don't seem to be understanding my point. Very bluntly...Rocket attacks cause Israelis fear...this fear makes it harder for moderates to confront extremists within Israel...for the occupation to end, this confrontation has to happen...therefore, rocket attacks make ending the occupation more difficult. I am talking about ending the occupation, not about continuing it.

This is not a game of checkers. There aren't any turns. Both sides need to alter the way they act, and it doesn't matter who does it first. They both need to start changing as soon as possible. The faster both sides see reason and start acting so as to instill trust in the other the faster the occupation will come to an end.

Why are you so intent on disagreeing with me? I'm trying to have a practical discussion ABOUT HOW TO END THE OCCUPATION. Let me repeat that a few times. I'M TALKING ABOUT ENDING THE OCCUPATION. I'M TALKING ABOUT ENDING THE OCCUPATION. I'M TALKING ABOUT ENDING THE OCCUPATION. I'M TALKING ABOUT ENDING THE OCCUPATION. So far no one has added anything constructive. For every pragmatic suggestion I throw out there the only response has been a litany of personal insults, a list of how Palestinians suffer, and a flat assertion that everything is Israel's fault. Are you guys interested in talking about how to ACTUALLY END THE OCCUPATION, or are you just interested in having an outlet for your righteous indignation?

redrock

yosi wrote:

Please read this carefully, because you don't seem to be understanding my point. Very bluntly...Rocket attacks cause Israelis fear......therefore, rocket attacks make ending the occupation more difficult. . ?

Read very carefully because you don't seem to be understanding my point.... The supposedly 'fear' these rocket attacks cause to the WHOLE population is completely disproportionate to the impact of these rockets. This so called fear is an excuse/justification for Israeli AGGRESSION and OPPRESSION. On the other hand, very bluntly, the FEAR that the people of Gaza live with every hour of the day, is real. I say the Israeli settlements, the blockade, the humiliation, the occupation, the bombing, use of phospherous, etc. make ending these sporadic rocket attacks more difficult.

yosi wrote:

There aren't any turns. Both sides need to alter the way they act, and it doesn't matter who does it first.

:roll: Yosi...... look back at your posts. You mentioned several times that Gaza had to take the first step by stopping the odd rocket being fired in Israel.

yosi wrote:

I'm trying to have a practical discussion ABOUT HOW TO END THE OCCUPATION. .....For every pragmatic suggestion I throw out ....?

I think that your 'pragmatic' approach to ending the occupation being that Gaza has to take the first step and submit is not very constructive to start with. Again, Israel being the main agressor, the onus is on them.

Yosi, you are the master of picking and choosing what you wish to respond to, ignoring what you cannot 'justify'.

Tell me though...this scenario I gave of you being attacked. I would be very interested in your response.

yosi

This is pointless. I'm done.

yosi

What scenario? The Texas thing? So what, Mexico is occupying Texas, and Texas is like Gaza, and I'm a Texan? Is that the scenario? And what is the point of me answering this question? It's not like you haven't already decided on what is an acceptable answer. And you aren't really interested in my answer anyway.

redrock

You're having a lil' strop because it's not going your way, Yosi. Try addressing a few points Pepe made, the scenario I put forward - which by the way is not the Texas thing. I never talked about Texas in my posts - proof you don't really read before responding to what you choose.

Pepe Silvia

redrock wrote:

You're having a lil' strop because it's not going your way, Yosi. Try addressing a few points Pepe made, the scenario I put forward - which by the way is not the Texas thing. I never talked about Texas in my posts - proof you don't really read before responding to what you choose.

or the 2nd post on this page...

yosi

Pepe, I'm not talking about the flotilla anymore. We aren't going to agree, and quite frankly nobody really knows what happened for sure.

Polaris, I read your posts. But there are a lot of them, so you'll forgive me for not being a mind-reader and knowing what you mean when you cryptically ask me about your "scenario." Just remind me what it is.

As for things not going my way, they never do here, but that's what happens when you're the only one disagreeing with a group that is close-minded and hostile to divergent opinions.

redrock

yosi wrote:

Polaris, I read your posts. But there are a lot of them, so you'll forgive me for not being a mind-reader and knowing what you mean when you cryptically ask me about your "scenario." Just remind me what it is.

Maybe if you read my posts, you would know they come from redrock. Nothing cryptic about what I asked assuming you got the right person. And it's only few posts down...

yosi wrote:

close-minded and hostile to divergent opinions.

Hmmmm.... sounds like you are talking about yourself.

You choose not to play anymore when arguments put forth cannot be counter-argued with an excuse for Israel acting the way they do. The world is not blind Yosi. This flotilla 'incident' opened their eyes even more. I know Israel doesn't give a shit insofar that they think it will blow away and they will be able to brush it off their shoulders, but I think, whilst this flagrant attack on people delivering aid is not quite a turning point, it has caused waves. Strangely enough more then when Israel murdered hundreds upon hundreds with their recent indiscrimate bombing of Gaza. Even the US had to speak up.

polaris_x

Cosmo wrote:

I think this is about the 10th time I've stated this here in this thread, but... here goes...
"No".
I find no justification in bombs dropped from wings of aircraft... I find no justification in rockets, arbitrarily aimed across borders or vest bombs inside crowded city busses.

so, your only point is that palestinians shouldn't fire rockets or retaliate for their ongoing oppression?

polaris_x

yosi wrote:

Israel doesn't control whether Palestinians shoot rockets at them. I'd like them to stop doing that, for one. I mean, what are you talking about? The Palestinians have free will, they're in control of their own actions, they can choose how they behave. All I want is for them to do the same as what I want Israel to do, namely stop acting in a way that hurts the chances for peace and start acting in a way that helps.

this is an interesting point ... as you have said previously that the people in israel have no control over what the gov't does and the ultra-orthodox right wingers ... yet, now you want your civilian palestinian population to prevent rocket attacks from a group who's retaliating over israel's constant oppression and land-grabbing ...

yosi

It's not that they have no control, it's that for the moment they have ceded the field. I want this very much to not be the case. As I've said I think the settlers are out of their minds and a danger to Israel. But getting the Israeli majority to confront these nutbags is difficult for reasons I've spelled out above. I don't think it would be any easier for the Palestinians to take control of their own extremists. In fact I'm quite sure it would be even more difficult. But I'm convinced that there will not be peace until they do (not that they have to do this first - again this isn't some turn based game - just that extremists on both sides have a history of sinking peace deals, and they will have to be confronted and dealt with for peace to be had). When I talk about Palestinian violence re-enforcing Israeli fears I'm not saying that Israel can't do anything before the Palestinians change their actions. They can and they should. But a shift towards non-violence would push Israelis in the right direction, and embolden Israeli moderates to do what has to be done. Likewise, I'm sure that a change in Israeli behavior would help moderate Palestinians in the same way. So it's not about "first Israel has to do this, or first the Palestinians have to do this," it's that both sides need to change, and this is difficult for both of them. It doesn't matter who starts changing their actions first, but it is unrealistic to expect that one side or the other will change entirely before the other. It has to be a mutual process, because I think for both Palestinians and Israelis there is only so far they will be willing to go on their own without seeing the changes occurring on the other side as well. They need to shift together so that each re-enforces the other.

Redrock, I'm sorry that I confused you with Polaris. It was 3 am and I was tired. If you want an answer just remind me what you're talking about because I just don't remember. Please stop being an insulting prick for no reason.

redrock

yosi wrote:

Please stop being an insulting prick for no reason.

Look who's talking. I don't believe there was any insult in my post. And I don't think I can qualify as a 'prick'.

NoHelmetHardHead

Why not aid American cities and citizens that desperately need help instead?

polaris_x

NoHelmetHardHead wrote:

Why not aid American cities and citizens that desperately need help instead?

because the american gov't no longer serves its citizens ... just the corporations that reside there ...

NoHelmetHardHead

polaris_x wrote:

NoHelmetHardHead wrote:

Why not aid American cities and citizens that desperately need help instead?

because the american gov't no longer serves its citizens ... just the corporations that reside there ...

Good point