Anyways, getting back to the more productive conversation we had going here earlier, before certain people felt the need to start personally insulting those they disagree with, it seems to me that simply looking at Gaza compared to the West Bank we have two models of how the Palestinians can go. On the one hand there is Abbas and Fayyad, capable technocrats who have embraced nonviolence and who are actually building something for their people, and tangibly improving their lives. On the other hand we have Hamas, a terrorist organization sporting a racist charter, which refuses to recognize Israel, refuses to forswear violence, and refuses to abide by previous treaty agreements. Whatever you think about Israel and its actions, I don't get why so many of you seem perfectly happy to be fellow travelers and apologists for Hamas, an organization that represents the exact opposite of what I take to be the liberal and secular politics of most everyone on this board. It seems to me that the sooner the West Bank model takes root in Gaza, the better it will be for everyone.
this is funny that you complain about certain people personally insulting those they disagree with when you do that repeatedly.
for example the post you made just 9min before this one you said
"Seriously dude? Unless you are significantly mentally impaired you don't start talking about concentration camps and NOT expect people to understand that you're talking about the Holocaust"
as redrock pointed out many countries have used concentration camps, jews don't have the patent on them. anyway, do you have any opinion on the definition of 'concentration camp' redrock posted?
"concentration camp (plural concentration camps)
1. A camp where large numbers of persons—such as political prisoners, prisoners of war, refugees—are detained for the purpose of concentrating them in one place.
2. A camp or premises in which persons considered to be undesirable by those who control it are hidden away, mistreated, and even killed.
3. A situation wherein crowding and extremely harsh conditions take place."
or will this be one of your arguments over semantics like killing 1,300 palestinians isn't a massacre but killing 11 israeli's is :roll:
don't compete; coexist
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
I'm curious, how many Israeli civilians have been killed in the last 3-5 yrs by home made rockets used by the Palestinians? I really want to know. Is it more or less then 10,20,30 or more? And in my opinion as I'm speaking for myself, it is a concentration camp. Anyway you look at or try to defend it, it's a concentration camp. It's a modern day concentration camp, it's not the 40's and this isn't WWII, but it is what the Israeli GOVERNMENT not citizens, can get away with. Although it seems like they're getting away with anything and EVERYTHING. Enough is enough....we're talking about human lives here. Doesn't anyone believe in the god they're fighting for or over the land that they claim god gave them??? What god allows this, or better yet condones it??? Not my god...
I'm curious, how many Israeli civilians have been killed in the last 3-5 yrs by home made rockets used by the Palestinians? I really want to know. Is it more or less then 10,20,30 or more?
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Addressing this one specific point...
What does it matter to you? Are you keeping score? Are dead bodies like points on a scoreboard to you?
I mean, I don't know what you are trying to say, here. "Ahhh... it ain't all that bad... these rockets only kill, what?... 10.. 20... 30, tops. The guys firing... they ain't that bad... besides, it's not like their killing thousands, right? What... so there's a few dead people, big deal. Especially when our guys are getting their asses handed to them out there."
I'm being serious here... would you feel better if their rockets were more effective and killed thousands... if the suicide bombers took out a city block instead of one measly bus? If the body count was closer... would that make it better? What is the point? To even the score? If not, then what?
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I don't know how to say it simpler...
Me no like kill.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Cosmo, seriouslly dude, chill the fuck out. I do care about human life. I was asking a question I didn't know the answer to. You jump all over me for no reason. Get off my back, stop worrying about why I asked that question and go learn more about this subject. Why aren't you jumping all over yosi for defending Israelis killing of people. Yet you jump all over me for asking a question. Hmmm, makes me wonder why you're selective on who you jump all over.....you dnt know the answer to my question, leave it alone and move on. You jump all over me, really? Wow.
To even the score you ask???? They'll NEVER be able to even the score....once again I'll say it loud and clear for all to read. I, as a Muslim, follow the teaching that if a Muslim kills 1 single human being, MY god will punish that Muslim as if he has killed ALL of humanity. Is that clear enough for you where I stand? Do you prefer me to translate it for you into another language of your choice???? Man you have no clue about me to attack me like that putting quotes as if I made those statements...dnt judge me, you dnt know me. Should I call you a Zionist cuz you dnt dare attack yosi?(dnt get mad at me yosi, just using it as an example my brotha), yosi knows where I stand. And I'd like to think everybody knows where I stand when it comes to killing ANY humans. Enough killings on EVERY side!!!!
Cosmo, I believe I've already said it, but I agree with you entirely. As for getting many others here to really look honestly at the violence of BOTH sides, good luck. I've found that the majority here are completely unwilling to take the Palestinians off the pedestal they've put them on, and actually hold them responsible for their own actions.
well of course the palestinians are responsible for their own actions. however one must really honestly look at why they find it necessary to use violence. im not condoning violence on either side but i understand why BOTH sides are using it.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Anyways, getting back to the more productive conversation we had going here earlier, before certain people felt the need to start personally insulting those they disagree with, it seems to me that simply looking at Gaza compared to the West Bank we have two models of how the Palestinians can go. On the one hand there is Abbas and Fayyad, capable technocrats who have embraced nonviolence and who are actually building something for their people, and tangibly improving their lives. On the other hand we have Hamas, a terrorist organization sporting a racist charter, which refuses to recognize Israel, refuses to forswear violence, and refuses to abide by previous treaty agreements. Whatever you think about Israel and its actions, I don't get why so many of you seem perfectly happy to be fellow travelers and apologists for Hamas, an organization that represents the exact opposite of what I take to be the liberal and secular politics of most everyone on this board. It seems to me that the sooner the West Bank model takes root in Gaza, the better it will be for everyone.
Lol, spoken like a true Zionist. Of course you would find Abbas and Fayyad "capable." They've only helped further Zionist ambitions and squash any Palestinian resistance to the occupation and Israeli aggression. They are nothing but puppets. It is not your business to tell the Palestinians who is the more capable leader. They will respond based on how Israel proceeds with the occupation, settlement building, and their general oppressing of Palestinians through so many different ways (extrajudicial killings, arrests, bulldozing homes, etc etc etc)... Hamas came as the only legitimate resistance to Israeli oppression. YOUR actions have resulted in Hamas being elected in Gaza. NOT the Palestinians' bloodthirst. Stop placing blame on everyone but yourselves. I don't mean with some fucking stupid ass sentence like "I understand the occupation must end" you only use these to try to propagate yourself as "moderate" or "sensible", "able to see both sides." There are two sides on this conflict: Israeli aggression, and Palestinians living under occupation, subjugated to inhumane treatment everyday. Hamas and all these other organizations are just subgroups, spinoffs from these two sides. Israeli aggression is what led to Hamas, Palestinians living under an oppressive regime is what led to them supporting a resistance group.
I'm curious, how many Israeli civilians have been killed in the last 3-5 yrs by home made rockets used by the Palestinians? I really want to know. Is it more or less then 10,20,30 or more?
...
Addressing this one specific point...
What does it matter to you? Are you keeping score? Are dead bodies like points on a scoreboard to you?
I mean, I don't know what you are trying to say, here. "Ahhh... it ain't all that bad... these rockets only kill, what?... 10.. 20... 30, tops. The guys firing... they ain't that bad... besides, it's not like their killing thousands, right? What... so there's a few dead people, big deal. Especially when our guys are getting their asses handed to them out there."
I'm being serious here... would you feel better if their rockets were more effective and killed thousands... if the suicide bombers took out a city block instead of one measly bus? If the body count was closer... would that make it better? What is the point? To even the score? If not, then what?
...
I don't know how to say it simpler...
Me no like kill.
The point is that when 13 Israelis were killed within the same time period that 1300 Palestinians were killed, it is obvious who is the aggressor in the conflict. The rocket attacks are a distraction and not central to this conflict whatsoever. They've only been somewhat relevant (or atleast as relevant as Israel tries to make them) during the past 5 years while Israeli aggression has been rampant for DECADES.
Cosmo, I believe I've already said it, but I agree with you entirely. As for getting many others here to really look honestly at the violence of BOTH sides, good luck. I've found that the majority here are completely unwilling to take the Palestinians off the pedestal they've put them on, and actually hold them responsible for their own actions.
well of course the palestinians are responsible for their own actions. however one must really honestly look at why they find it necessary to use violence. im not condoning violence on either side but i understand why BOTH sides are using it.
sure, I understand why both sides use violence. Israel uses it to steal Palestinian land and beat the Palestinians into submission. Palestinians use it as a resistance method. now the ethical arguments of all the different Palestinian groups' methods is a different story but the fact that they are all RESISTANCE groups is what is most relevant. If you want Palestinian resistance to stop, you must stop Israeli aggression first.
Cosmo, I believe I've already said it, but I agree with you entirely. As for getting many others here to really look honestly at the violence of BOTH sides, good luck. I've found that the majority here are completely unwilling to take the Palestinians off the pedestal they've put them on, and actually hold them responsible for their own actions.
well of course the palestinians are responsible for their own actions. however one must really honestly look at why they find it necessary to use violence. im not condoning violence on either side but i understand why BOTH sides are using it.
... If you want Palestinian resistance to stop, you must stop Israeli aggression first.
so very true
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Ok, so your argument is that you should be excused for prejudging the event before the facts are known because you think that Israel has a bad track record. But that's not how things work. You know, innocent until proven guilty? You're free to think whatever you want, but "consequences," whatever they might be, have to wait for actual evidence.
If you go back and reread what I wrote you'll see that I didn't say that the world should wait on an Israeli controlled investigation. I said simply an investigation. As it happens, however, Israel just today announced its plans for an investigative committee. It is to be headed by a former Israeli supreme court justice (the court has a well-documented record of independence, often coming into conflict with ruling governments and the army), and is to include two respected international legal experts, one Canadian, and one British I believe, to ensure that the investigation is transparent and honest.
Why do you assume the tapes Israel has released are doctored? Edited certainly, but that is a far cry from doctored, which carries an implication of falsification.
And on what basis, other than the fact that you agree with their politics, do you trust the "activists"? They are quite clearly not objective sources of information.
When it comes down to it you have jumped to your own conclusions about what happened on that ship, absent any definitive evidence. Justify that however you like, but don't be surprised and angry that (hopefully) responsible world governments aren't as quick to take punitive actions against another country based on nothing more than a pure assumption of guilt.
as has been highlighted to you - this investigative team is far from independent ...
i don't assume the tapes have been doctored - i've seen the tapes doctored ... just watch all the videos pepe has posted - that for some reason (i think triumphantangel knows) you never respond to but that i am sure you have seen ...
there are only two sides who can accurately account for what happened - do i trust an israeli gov't that has known to have lied, who have purposefully jammed all communications and confiscated all recording devices and media? ... or do i trust the hundreds of activists from all around the world who's purpose is to free the palestinian people from this blockade? do i trust the side that has millions of dollars and technical expertise to fight a media / pr campaign or do i trust the side that has to raise money from humanitarians around the world?
and my opinion of what happened is not without evidence ... there have been numerous activists who smuggled video as well as interviews with them after their deportation as well as the people doing the forensics on the videos israel has released ...
i've tried to bridge that gap between us by acknowledging that you have made meaningful posts but you have shown yourself to be selective as to what you will respond to ... ultimately, if you truly want peace in your area - there has to be a respect for palestinians and a concession of what israel has and continues to do wrong ... only israelis can free the palestinians and that means people like you and rafie ... but if you continue to play patriot and be an apologist of crimes against humanity - then we are left with nothing but suffering ...
Cosmo, seriouslly dude, chill the fuck out. I do care about human life. I was asking a question I didn't know the answer to. You jump all over me for no reason. Get off my back, stop worrying about why I asked that question and go learn more about this subject. Why aren't you jumping all over yosi for defending Israelis killing of people. Yet you jump all over me for asking a question. Hmmm, makes me wonder why you're selective on who you jump all over.....you dnt know the answer to my question, leave it alone and move on. You jump all over me, really? Wow.
...
O... kay.... looks like someone seems to be off his meds...
I think it's kind of funny how you choose your adversaries... You feel, because I do not engage in debate against Yosi... what? I **must** (somehow... is some sort of black or white logic), therefore, support his side? I don't.
Some of you are making is quite clear to me... you have no room for any middle ground on this issue. You haven't just drawn a line in the sand... you have dug an abyss in the sand that no one can straddle. You are either on one side or the other.
Example.. all you hear is my criticism of the use of rockets or suicide bomb... and completely miss my equal distain for air strikes. I don't like either. I don't care which is the more efficient method to kill... they both represent killing to me.
Once i don't join in on your Yosi pinata party... I am viewed as an enemy and you drop your side of the arguement on me like a ton of bricks. And if I raise a question.... I am dismissed as 'ignorant' or I need to 'learn more'. Why can't I just be against the side that uses violence that leads to death? Why do some of you feel I need to choose one side or the other?
...
I'm not supporting the side that uses violence and looks to justify killing. Okay?
Post edited by Cosmo on
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
To even the score you ask???? They'll NEVER be able to even the score....once again I'll say it loud and clear for all to read. I, as a Muslim, follow the teaching that if a Muslim kills 1 single human being, MY god will punish that Muslim as if he has killed ALL of humanity. Is that clear enough for you where I stand? Do you prefer me to translate it for you into another language of your choice???? Man you have no clue about me to attack me like that putting quotes as if I made those statements...dnt judge me, you dnt know me. Should I call you a Zionist cuz you dnt dare attack yosi?(dnt get mad at me yosi, just using it as an example my brotha), yosi knows where I stand. And I'd like to think everybody knows where I stand when it comes to killing ANY humans. Enough killings on EVERY side!!!!
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If killing 1 is the same as killing 1 million... then, WHY does a numerical total matter?
That what I was asking... why does a number have to be attached to it?
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
If killing 1 is the same as killing 1 million... then, WHY does a numerical total matter?
That what I was asking... why does a number have to be attached to it?
the numbers are relevant because it is the foundation of israel's PR campaign ... because israelis live in constant fear of being attacked - they must impose all these security checkpoints preventing palestinians from getting to their land or their jobs without going thru sometimes demeaning process ... it is the foundation for the air strikes ... it is the foundation for this blockade in gaza ... the resulting suffering unleased is a crime against humanity ...
just try and find the number ... you won't get an accurate number ... but the reality is that the number of civilians killed by palestinian rocket attacks or suicide bombings in the last few years is very tiny ... nothing remotely close to the 1,300 palestinians killed in gaza during the airstrikes a few years ago ...
If killing 1 is the same as killing 1 million... then, WHY does a numerical total matter?
That what I was asking... why does a number have to be attached to it?
the numbers are relevant because it is the foundation of israel's PR campaign ... because israelis live in constant fear of being attacked - they must impose all these security checkpoints preventing palestinians from getting to their land or their jobs without going thru sometimes demeaning process ... it is the foundation for the air strikes ... it is the foundation for this blockade in gaza ... the resulting suffering unleased is a crime against humanity ...
just try and find the number ... you won't get an accurate number ... but the reality is that the number of civilians killed by palestinian rocket attacks or suicide bombings in the last few years is very tiny ... nothing remotely close to the 1,300 palestinians killed in gaza during the airstrikes a few years ago ...
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Again... let me say...
I want Israel out of all of the occupied territories.
I want Israel to end the oppression in those regions.
I want Israel to stop its air strikes.
...
BUT... I also want...
Suicide bombings and rocket/mortar attacks to become extinct.
...
If these things do not occur... the same old shit that's been going on is going to continue to go on until Nature slates the Homo Sapien-sapien for extinction.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Again... let me say...
I want Israel out of all of the occupied territories.
I want Israel to end the oppression in those regions.
I want Israel to stop its air strikes.
...
BUT... I also want...
Suicide bombings and rocket/mortar attacks to become extinct.
...
If these things do not occur... the same old shit that's been going on is going to continue to go on until Nature slates the Homo Sapien-sapien for extinction.
but the thing is that these things have relatively stopped ... hence the casualty counts ... but israel continues to expand ...
the point being that israel has no interest in having the rocket attacks/suicide bombings stop because ultimately it allows them to continue to impose the blockades and expand without consequence ...
why is israel continuing to expand when everyone and their grandma knows that a two-state solution is the fair approach?
Again... let me say...
I want Israel out of all of the occupied territories.
I want Israel to end the oppression in those regions.
I want Israel to stop its air strikes.
...
BUT... I also want...
Suicide bombings and rocket/mortar attacks to become extinct.
...
If these things do not occur... the same old shit that's been going on is going to continue to go on until Nature slates the Homo Sapien-sapien for extinction.
but the thing is that these things have relatively stopped ... hence the casualty counts ... but israel continues to expand ...
the point being that israel has no interest in having the rocket attacks/suicide bombings stop because ultimately it allows them to continue to impose the blockades and expand without consequence ...
why is israel continuing to expand when everyone and their grandma knows that a two-state solution is the fair approach?
...
Preaching to the choir, here.
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The only difference I seem to have is I'm holding the Palestinian side responsible for their actions... for the blood they've spilled. Others seem to tell me, it doesn't really matter because the body count is 1300 to 13. But, it matters to me. You can't kill someone and claim innocence just because you are not killing as many of them... as they are of you.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Preaching to the choir, here.
...
The only difference I seem to have is I'm holding the Palestinian side responsible for their actions... for the blood they've spilled. Others seem to tell me, it doesn't really matter because the body count is 1300 to 13. But, it matters to me. You can't kill someone and claim innocence just because you are not killing as many of them... as they are of you.
the question is then: is the actions of israel justifiable based on the "blood" palestinians have spilt?
P, expansion continues because Israel is not of one mind. The settlers are a minority (though a large one), but they are vocal, well organized, and because of the nature of Israeli politics, politically powerful. They are aided by the ultra-orthodox, also a significant minority, and also politically empowered by Israel's utterly fucked up political system. Unlike the hardcore settlers, who are ideologically driven, the ultra-orthodox don't give a shit about where they live, but they have a ton of kids and marry young, so their population grows really fast and they are always in need of housing. The settlements are a cheap place to live, and so they live there and cooperate with the settlers to keep the housing cheap and to make sure more of it is built.
The secular, non-settler majority (and here I include a large number of settlers, those who live in the settlements because they are cheap, not because of ideological conviction) realize that the occupation is unsustainable and should be ended (they are not all happy about this, but they realize it nonetheless). The problem is that ending the occupation will be enormously difficult and painful. Forcibly evicting 8,000 settlers from Gaza almost tore the country apart. Evicting hundreds of thousands of people from the West Bank will be more difficult by a few orders of magnitude. On top of that Israelis are generally convinced that there are significant elements of Palestinian society for whom ending the occupation would be only the first step towards destroying Israel. Looking back to what happened in South Lebanon and then in Gaza they are afraid that as soon as the IDF withdraws from the West Bank the territory will be taken over by Hamas, or else groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad will be given free reign to operate there, as they were under Arafat. Either way they are afraid that withdrawing from the West Bank will put the country in danger because from the West Bank the entirety of Israel's major population and economic centers could be easily bombarded by even the crudest weapons. It is one thing for Sderot, a small town in the desert, to live under a barrage of rockets. It's quite another thing when it's Tel Aviv. It doesn't even matter how lethal the rockets are, though the urban center of Israel is much more densely populated, so chances are that rockets landing there would be much more lethal. A steady barrage of rockets on Israel's center would be economically devastating.
To recap, ending the occupation forcibly, by using the army to evict people from their homes, would be unimaginably painful for the country, and the majority, though they want to end the occupation, don't know how to do so without putting the country in danger. What happens, then, is that the majority stays silent while the minority continues to expand, and the country's leaders (in whom virtually no one has any faith) do nothing because their governing coalitions generally, by numerical necessity, include small religious and/or right wing parties that would scuttle the government if it moved against the settlements. Plus they're strategically blind, foolish, idiotic, arrogant, politicians without the guts to put the good of the country ahead of their own ambitions.
All that being said, the majority could be mobilized to confront the expansionist minority if they could be convinced that doing so could actually net them a peace deal. It has happened before. Rabin (Labor) was voted in to replace Shamir (Likud) because he promised to bring peace. The suicide bombings in the mid '90s brought Netanyahu (Likud), promising security, to power for the first time (replacing Peres who took over when Rabin was killed). Then Barack (Labor) promising peace replaced Netanyahu, but once the Second Intifada started he was replaced by Sharon (Likud). Right, Left, Right, Left, Right, all within a 10 year period. A demand for security balanced against hopes for peace. The thing is that now, after the Second Intifada, Israelis don't care when one of their leaders promises them peace because they know he can't deliver. They believe that they offered the Palestinians an end to the occupation, and a state, and that their offer was met with unprecedented violence. So now the majority is basically waiting it out. They want peace, but they'll live with security, and so long as peace isn't on the horizen they aren't going to put themselves through the pain of starting a fight with the settlers and the ultra-orthodox.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
well ... that is pretty much what we've been saying all along ... so, while israelis let the right wingers dictate all that is going on ... every day will be a struggle for many palestinians ...
Wow, OK, so building on this moment of agreement then, what I've been trying to say with the whole Palestinians need to take responsibility for their actions bit, is that the best way to end the occupation is to convince the Israeli majority that peace is possible, to ease the the security fears that keep them from confronting the settlers. But every time a rocket is fired into Israel proper it does just the opposite. It re-enforces Israeli fears. What I'm saying is that the tactics being used by Palestinians to resist the occupation are bad tactics. They are counterproductive. I'm arguing that the Palestinians need to take responsibility for acting wisely, for not lashing out violently, even if they feel justified in doing so, because such actions, by feeding the fears of the Israeli majority, lessen the chances that the majority will finally confront the settlers.
If the Palestinians were to reject violence, and were to actually reign in the individuals who would continue to practice it, if they were to reject Hamas, or at least the elements of its ideology that are antisemitic and call for Israel's destruction, if they started to take actions like these it would go a long way towards pushing the Israeli majority into a confrontation with the settlers.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
uhhh ... why do you ask for all these things from palestinians when israel has given nothing? ... the oppression of palestinians has been ongoing for a while now ... with or without violence in return ...
why doesn't israel stop expanding and ease the blockade? ... the onus is on israel to reign in the right-wingers and be serious about peace plans ... withdraw to the agreed borders and build a massive wall with as many security checkpoints as you'd like ...
I don't think the onus is solely on the Palestinians. I strongly believe that Israel also needs to alter its behavior in the interests of peace. I've already written repeatedly that they should freeze all settlement construction, and that I think they should create economic incentives that draw people to new communities in Israel proper instead of the settlements. I think they should get rid of as many roadblocks as they can (they've already cut them from 48 (or thereabouts) to 12) and they should find a way to treat the people that pass through them with a lot more dignity. They should restrain themselves from any military action that is not absolutely necessary, and as much as possible hand over responsibility for policing the West Bank to the Palestinians. They should police the settlers much more intensively, and make clear that the government will not tolerate settlers breaking Israel's laws any longer. I think they should end the blockade of Gaza, although they should continue to inspect ships for weapons. Basically both sides need to change the way they act.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
Just to be clear, everything in the above post I think that Israel should do in advance of an eventual peace deal that would end the occupation entirely, so as to create conditions conducive to peace. I don't want anyone to think that I'm advocating that the occupation continue indefinitely, only in a gentler form.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
well ... if and when israel decides to do any of the things you mentioned ... we can focus on the palestinians ... till then ... it'll be business as usual and as each day passes which side is getting the short end of the stick?
How is that a helpful approach to anything? You're saying that rather than encouraging the Palestinians to take actions to improve their situation you're fine with things remaining as they are, because Israel HAS to be the one to blink first. And then you remind me that the Palestinians suffer more.
Actually that is kind of a disgusting thing to say. You're prioritizing Palestinian victimhood over Palestinian well-being. Your saying that you don't care that the Palestinians could do something constructive towards a peaceful settlement and improving their lives, because you think this whole conflict is Israel's fault and Israel's responsibility, and so anything that is done has to be done by Israel first, even if it means that the Palestinians will suffer longer. I'm sorry, but what you just said betrays an utter lack of regard for the well-being of Palestinians. You just seem more interested in blaming Israel than in helping Palestinians, who are what, useful martyrs?
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
i don't think you comprehend correctly all the time ... where have i said anything remotely close to your accusations?
this isn't about who needs to blink first ... you are trying to make it appear as it is some kind of standoff here ... it is not ... it has never been nor will it turn into one ...
israel MUST be the first to act simply because they control all the cards ... every single one of them ... they decide whether palestinians shall be free or not ... what do you want from the millions of palestinians that live and breathe under israeli dictatorship?
If killing 1 is the same as killing 1 million... then, WHY does a numerical total matter?
That what I was asking... why does a number have to be attached to it?
the numbers are relevant because it is the foundation of israel's PR campaign ... because israelis live in constant fear of being attacked - they must impose all these security checkpoints preventing palestinians from getting to their land or their jobs without going thru sometimes demeaning process ... it is the foundation for the air strikes ... it is the foundation for this blockade in gaza ... the resulting suffering unleased is a crime against humanity ...
just try and find the number ... you won't get an accurate number ... but the reality is that the number of civilians killed by palestinian rocket attacks or suicide bombings in the last few years is very tiny ... nothing remotely close to the 1,300 palestinians killed in gaza during the airstrikes a few years ago ...
they live in constant fear....and yet israel tells an entirely different story
Is it safe to travel to Israel?
Israel is an extremely safe country to visit and to tour. In 2008, three million tourists came to Israel, an all-time record, and all three million went back home safe and sound. We would not encourage tourists to come if we felt they would be in the slightest danger.
i'm not justifying it with this statement but the overwhelming majority of rocket and mortar attacks happen either in illegal settlements or sderot, which was an arab village until a day before israel became a nation and in the middle fo the night jews forced everyone out of the village, bulldozed down their homes and built sderot on top of it.
i'm not saying it is right but i do know for a fact if mexico was doing that in texas or california there would be americans doing a hell of a lot more than lobbing inefficient rockets at them. the use of violence isn't right but i see the violence from the palestinians coming mainly from lashing out after decades of abuse. over 1/2 the population of gaza has lived their entire life under this brutal occupation where some members of the idf and settlers are allowed to do whatever the fuck they want without consequences. i am very much non violent but i can imagine if that was my everyday reality for decades and i had kids there it would make me react in ways i normally wouldn't. the violence from the israeli side comes more from protecting their ILLEGAL expansion and wanting to take more or to put the palestinians back in their place
don't compete; coexist
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
Israel doesn't control whether Palestinians shoot rockets at them. I'd like them to stop doing that, for one. I mean, what are you talking about? The Palestinians have free will, they're in control of their own actions, they can choose how they behave. All I want is for them to do the same as what I want Israel to do, namely stop acting in a way that hurts the chances for peace and start acting in a way that helps.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
Preaching to the choir, here.
...
The only difference I seem to have is I'm holding the Palestinian side responsible for their actions... for the blood they've spilled. Others seem to tell me, it doesn't really matter because the body count is 1300 to 13. But, it matters to me. You can't kill someone and claim innocence just because you are not killing as many of them... as they are of you.
the question is then: is the actions of israel justifiable based on the "blood" palestinians have spilt?
...
I think this is about the 10th time I've stated this here in this thread, but... here goes...
"No".
I find no justification in bombs dropped from wings of aircraft... I find no justification in rockets, arbitrarily aimed across borders or vest bombs inside crowded city busses.
Post edited by Cosmo on
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Comments
this is funny that you complain about certain people personally insulting those they disagree with when you do that repeatedly.
for example the post you made just 9min before this one you said
"Seriously dude? Unless you are significantly mentally impaired you don't start talking about concentration camps and NOT expect people to understand that you're talking about the Holocaust"
as redrock pointed out many countries have used concentration camps, jews don't have the patent on them. anyway, do you have any opinion on the definition of 'concentration camp' redrock posted?
"concentration camp (plural concentration camps)
1. A camp where large numbers of persons—such as political prisoners, prisoners of war, refugees—are detained for the purpose of concentrating them in one place.
2. A camp or premises in which persons considered to be undesirable by those who control it are hidden away, mistreated, and even killed.
3. A situation wherein crowding and extremely harsh conditions take place."
or will this be one of your arguments over semantics like killing 1,300 palestinians isn't a massacre but killing 11 israeli's is :roll:
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
Addressing this one specific point...
What does it matter to you? Are you keeping score? Are dead bodies like points on a scoreboard to you?
I mean, I don't know what you are trying to say, here. "Ahhh... it ain't all that bad... these rockets only kill, what?... 10.. 20... 30, tops. The guys firing... they ain't that bad... besides, it's not like their killing thousands, right? What... so there's a few dead people, big deal. Especially when our guys are getting their asses handed to them out there."
I'm being serious here... would you feel better if their rockets were more effective and killed thousands... if the suicide bombers took out a city block instead of one measly bus? If the body count was closer... would that make it better? What is the point? To even the score? If not, then what?
...
I don't know how to say it simpler...
Me no like kill.
Hail, Hail!!!
well of course the palestinians are responsible for their own actions. however one must really honestly look at why they find it necessary to use violence. im not condoning violence on either side but i understand why BOTH sides are using it.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
so very true
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
as has been highlighted to you - this investigative team is far from independent ...
i don't assume the tapes have been doctored - i've seen the tapes doctored ... just watch all the videos pepe has posted - that for some reason (i think triumphantangel knows) you never respond to but that i am sure you have seen ...
there are only two sides who can accurately account for what happened - do i trust an israeli gov't that has known to have lied, who have purposefully jammed all communications and confiscated all recording devices and media? ... or do i trust the hundreds of activists from all around the world who's purpose is to free the palestinian people from this blockade? do i trust the side that has millions of dollars and technical expertise to fight a media / pr campaign or do i trust the side that has to raise money from humanitarians around the world?
and my opinion of what happened is not without evidence ... there have been numerous activists who smuggled video as well as interviews with them after their deportation as well as the people doing the forensics on the videos israel has released ...
i've tried to bridge that gap between us by acknowledging that you have made meaningful posts but you have shown yourself to be selective as to what you will respond to ... ultimately, if you truly want peace in your area - there has to be a respect for palestinians and a concession of what israel has and continues to do wrong ... only israelis can free the palestinians and that means people like you and rafie ... but if you continue to play patriot and be an apologist of crimes against humanity - then we are left with nothing but suffering ...
O... kay.... looks like someone seems to be off his meds...
I think it's kind of funny how you choose your adversaries... You feel, because I do not engage in debate against Yosi... what? I **must** (somehow... is some sort of black or white logic), therefore, support his side? I don't.
Some of you are making is quite clear to me... you have no room for any middle ground on this issue. You haven't just drawn a line in the sand... you have dug an abyss in the sand that no one can straddle. You are either on one side or the other.
Example.. all you hear is my criticism of the use of rockets or suicide bomb... and completely miss my equal distain for air strikes. I don't like either. I don't care which is the more efficient method to kill... they both represent killing to me.
Once i don't join in on your Yosi pinata party... I am viewed as an enemy and you drop your side of the arguement on me like a ton of bricks. And if I raise a question.... I am dismissed as 'ignorant' or I need to 'learn more'. Why can't I just be against the side that uses violence that leads to death? Why do some of you feel I need to choose one side or the other?
...
I'm not supporting the side that uses violence and looks to justify killing. Okay?
Hail, Hail!!!
If killing 1 is the same as killing 1 million... then, WHY does a numerical total matter?
That what I was asking... why does a number have to be attached to it?
Hail, Hail!!!
the numbers are relevant because it is the foundation of israel's PR campaign ... because israelis live in constant fear of being attacked - they must impose all these security checkpoints preventing palestinians from getting to their land or their jobs without going thru sometimes demeaning process ... it is the foundation for the air strikes ... it is the foundation for this blockade in gaza ... the resulting suffering unleased is a crime against humanity ...
just try and find the number ... you won't get an accurate number ... but the reality is that the number of civilians killed by palestinian rocket attacks or suicide bombings in the last few years is very tiny ... nothing remotely close to the 1,300 palestinians killed in gaza during the airstrikes a few years ago ...
Again... let me say...
I want Israel out of all of the occupied territories.
I want Israel to end the oppression in those regions.
I want Israel to stop its air strikes.
...
BUT... I also want...
Suicide bombings and rocket/mortar attacks to become extinct.
...
If these things do not occur... the same old shit that's been going on is going to continue to go on until Nature slates the Homo Sapien-sapien for extinction.
Hail, Hail!!!
but the thing is that these things have relatively stopped ... hence the casualty counts ... but israel continues to expand ...
the point being that israel has no interest in having the rocket attacks/suicide bombings stop because ultimately it allows them to continue to impose the blockades and expand without consequence ...
why is israel continuing to expand when everyone and their grandma knows that a two-state solution is the fair approach?
Preaching to the choir, here.
...
The only difference I seem to have is I'm holding the Palestinian side responsible for their actions... for the blood they've spilled. Others seem to tell me, it doesn't really matter because the body count is 1300 to 13. But, it matters to me. You can't kill someone and claim innocence just because you are not killing as many of them... as they are of you.
Hail, Hail!!!
the question is then: is the actions of israel justifiable based on the "blood" palestinians have spilt?
The secular, non-settler majority (and here I include a large number of settlers, those who live in the settlements because they are cheap, not because of ideological conviction) realize that the occupation is unsustainable and should be ended (they are not all happy about this, but they realize it nonetheless). The problem is that ending the occupation will be enormously difficult and painful. Forcibly evicting 8,000 settlers from Gaza almost tore the country apart. Evicting hundreds of thousands of people from the West Bank will be more difficult by a few orders of magnitude. On top of that Israelis are generally convinced that there are significant elements of Palestinian society for whom ending the occupation would be only the first step towards destroying Israel. Looking back to what happened in South Lebanon and then in Gaza they are afraid that as soon as the IDF withdraws from the West Bank the territory will be taken over by Hamas, or else groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad will be given free reign to operate there, as they were under Arafat. Either way they are afraid that withdrawing from the West Bank will put the country in danger because from the West Bank the entirety of Israel's major population and economic centers could be easily bombarded by even the crudest weapons. It is one thing for Sderot, a small town in the desert, to live under a barrage of rockets. It's quite another thing when it's Tel Aviv. It doesn't even matter how lethal the rockets are, though the urban center of Israel is much more densely populated, so chances are that rockets landing there would be much more lethal. A steady barrage of rockets on Israel's center would be economically devastating.
To recap, ending the occupation forcibly, by using the army to evict people from their homes, would be unimaginably painful for the country, and the majority, though they want to end the occupation, don't know how to do so without putting the country in danger. What happens, then, is that the majority stays silent while the minority continues to expand, and the country's leaders (in whom virtually no one has any faith) do nothing because their governing coalitions generally, by numerical necessity, include small religious and/or right wing parties that would scuttle the government if it moved against the settlements. Plus they're strategically blind, foolish, idiotic, arrogant, politicians without the guts to put the good of the country ahead of their own ambitions.
All that being said, the majority could be mobilized to confront the expansionist minority if they could be convinced that doing so could actually net them a peace deal. It has happened before. Rabin (Labor) was voted in to replace Shamir (Likud) because he promised to bring peace. The suicide bombings in the mid '90s brought Netanyahu (Likud), promising security, to power for the first time (replacing Peres who took over when Rabin was killed). Then Barack (Labor) promising peace replaced Netanyahu, but once the Second Intifada started he was replaced by Sharon (Likud). Right, Left, Right, Left, Right, all within a 10 year period. A demand for security balanced against hopes for peace. The thing is that now, after the Second Intifada, Israelis don't care when one of their leaders promises them peace because they know he can't deliver. They believe that they offered the Palestinians an end to the occupation, and a state, and that their offer was met with unprecedented violence. So now the majority is basically waiting it out. They want peace, but they'll live with security, and so long as peace isn't on the horizen they aren't going to put themselves through the pain of starting a fight with the settlers and the ultra-orthodox.
If the Palestinians were to reject violence, and were to actually reign in the individuals who would continue to practice it, if they were to reject Hamas, or at least the elements of its ideology that are antisemitic and call for Israel's destruction, if they started to take actions like these it would go a long way towards pushing the Israeli majority into a confrontation with the settlers.
why doesn't israel stop expanding and ease the blockade? ... the onus is on israel to reign in the right-wingers and be serious about peace plans ... withdraw to the agreed borders and build a massive wall with as many security checkpoints as you'd like ...
Actually that is kind of a disgusting thing to say. You're prioritizing Palestinian victimhood over Palestinian well-being. Your saying that you don't care that the Palestinians could do something constructive towards a peaceful settlement and improving their lives, because you think this whole conflict is Israel's fault and Israel's responsibility, and so anything that is done has to be done by Israel first, even if it means that the Palestinians will suffer longer. I'm sorry, but what you just said betrays an utter lack of regard for the well-being of Palestinians. You just seem more interested in blaming Israel than in helping Palestinians, who are what, useful martyrs?
this isn't about who needs to blink first ... you are trying to make it appear as it is some kind of standoff here ... it is not ... it has never been nor will it turn into one ...
israel MUST be the first to act simply because they control all the cards ... every single one of them ... they decide whether palestinians shall be free or not ... what do you want from the millions of palestinians that live and breathe under israeli dictatorship?
they live in constant fear....and yet israel tells an entirely different story
http://www.goisrael.com/Tourism_Eng/Tou ... ions.htm#2. SAFETY
2. SAFETY
Is it safe to travel to Israel?
Israel is an extremely safe country to visit and to tour. In 2008, three million tourists came to Israel, an all-time record, and all three million went back home safe and sound. We would not encourage tourists to come if we felt they would be in the slightest danger.
i'm not justifying it with this statement but the overwhelming majority of rocket and mortar attacks happen either in illegal settlements or sderot, which was an arab village until a day before israel became a nation and in the middle fo the night jews forced everyone out of the village, bulldozed down their homes and built sderot on top of it.
i'm not saying it is right but i do know for a fact if mexico was doing that in texas or california there would be americans doing a hell of a lot more than lobbing inefficient rockets at them. the use of violence isn't right but i see the violence from the palestinians coming mainly from lashing out after decades of abuse. over 1/2 the population of gaza has lived their entire life under this brutal occupation where some members of the idf and settlers are allowed to do whatever the fuck they want without consequences. i am very much non violent but i can imagine if that was my everyday reality for decades and i had kids there it would make me react in ways i normally wouldn't. the violence from the israeli side comes more from protecting their ILLEGAL expansion and wanting to take more or to put the palestinians back in their place
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
I think this is about the 10th time I've stated this here in this thread, but... here goes...
"No".
I find no justification in bombs dropped from wings of aircraft... I find no justification in rockets, arbitrarily aimed across borders or vest bombs inside crowded city busses.
Hail, Hail!!!