between 48 and 67 Egypt occupied Gaza until Israel took over after the 67 war. Israel will not give control over Gaza to the Egyptians, they don't trust them at all and it would go against their plans to beat the Palestinian people into submission because they don't like their democratically elected government.
Either way though, your logic is STILL flawed. why should anyone have control over Gaza other than the people who live there? They are not Egyptian, trading one occupier for the other is a meaningless attempt at just forcing the Palestinians to submit under foreign rule.
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So... Gaza was never a part of Egypt... just occupied by Egypt? Okay then, Egypt is off the hook.
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again this logic makes no sense. Iran is miles away from there, why should the Palestinians be forced to relocate from their original homes? additionally, Israel is obviously the aggressor and the occupier in this conflict, why should we ignore their need to abide by international law and force another country to give up part of its territory because the Israelis don't want to give land back? Iran has every right to call out Israel's crimes, and all the countries who don't, including which ever Western country you live in (if it's the US then you should get my point) should be ashamed of themselves for letting this rogue state go on committing these crimes and massacres while facing no repercussions. is this not disturbing to you?
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I'm just saying... Arabs in the region constantly point to the Palestinian issue as a major sticking point in their relations with Israel... but, how do they treat Palestinians in their countries? Like shit, right? If not Iran... then how about Syria, Lebannon or Jordan? They're always bitching about the Israeli/Palenstinian conflict... how about they open their doors to them (Palestinians)?
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what does this have to do with Israel's disregard for international law? because of Cosmo's theory that the Middle East is destined to be fucked up, we should ignore Israel's illegal oppression of Palestinians and let it go by unnoticed? the injustice to the Palestinians has gone on long enough and I think if you just reread what you wrote, you'd see the flaws in your language. if any other state had done this, kept up this occupation for this long, everyone would be condemning them to hell, whereas with this issue everyone says "there's two sides". how come there is no two sides to any other occupation in the history of the world? i like that phrase, "history of the world"
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I've read and reread this and can't make heads or tails out of it in the context of my comments. I'm therefore, writing this off as your predetermined rant about the injustices of Isreal (of which I agree on). If you want to discuss what the region would possibly be like if Israel were to pull up anchor and ship out, fine. But, save your little tirades for discussions concerned with them.
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But... as a side note: There are two sides in other occupations... U.S. occupation in Iraq, comes to mind. How about Germany's occupation in most of Europe in the early 1940? Britian's occupation of Northern Ireland... Rome's occupation of Judea? Weren't those also part of the 'History Of The World'?
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yes you are wrong. in fact you should know you're wrong by your categorization ... your usage of "they" to refer to everyone is startling. you know black people in the US are thieves right and drug dealers right? they must not care about the law, that's your logic right here, stereotypical and borderline racist.
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Okay... break out th 'Racist Card'. Can't you do ANY better than that? It's really sad... yet, Race Cards make me laugh because they are typically broken out in places where racism doesn't exist and are typically played by the simplest of minds.
I'm saying that the Arabs and the Israelis (hence, the ALL of Them comment) must not value life, if they continue to prolong this revenge killing... for what reason? You try to paint me as racist... well, here's more stuff so you can play that other Racist Card hidden up your sleeve:
It's like the gang wars in the streets of Los Angeles between Crips and Bloods. They revenge murder each other to gain what? At some point you'd think they'd come to a realization that they are killing each other out of habit, not necessity. And yes.. ALL of the Crips and Bloods are acting like assholes because they are killing eacth other for no other reason but, revenge.
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I suggest you read Robert Pape's "Dying to Win" where he assesses the strategic logic of suicide terrorism, I think it'll shed light on this last paragraph of yours that breathes ignorance.
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I'll check into it... and I'm certain there is strategic logic tied to suicide bombing. But, isn't there also strategic logic tied to airstrikes? Who's strategic logic is more logical?
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
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They must not value life very much over there... or they are fucking stupid in thinking this airstrike will be the last one needed or that next suicide bomber will be the one to end the conflict. Life must be cheap and mean very little if they continue to think that what they are doing is a success.
i value life. that's why i fight so hard to try and bring awareness to the injustices that the Palestinians in the occupied territories are subjected to every day Cosmo.
don't fool yourself that the firing of rockets compares to Israel's ongoing siege of Gaza. there is only ONE side occupying the other. the Palestinians are imprisoned in Gaza and have no military force other than guns and homemade rockets. Israel, has the most sophisticated weaponry in the world at its disposal and uses it without mercy. they bomb Gaza Strip with F-16 fighter planes and helicopter gun ships. they target civillians. their response is completely disproportionate to the damage caused by the rocket fire from Gaza, which is a retaliation for Israel's aggression and illegal occupation. israel is NOT under threat. the number of Israelis killed and injured by rockets has been very few compared to the Palestinians killed in Gaza. if you are interested, i can give you plenty of statistics to back this up.
who the fuck are Israel to punish an an entire population? their actions are illegal under international law. (Israel has proven time and time again that they don't give a rats ass about international law though). most of the 1.5 million Palestinians in Gaza are not combatants. they are just trying to live their life in peace, forced to live in apartheid conditions. ordinary beautiful people, families and children. how dare the Israel government treat them like that. they are locked up like animals and every single one of their basic human rights are denied because of the actions of a few?
the UN consistantly condemns the Israeli settlements in the occupied territories as illegal, and their treatment of the Palestinians as brutal and inhumane. the Palestinians have, and continue to sufffer years of physical and psychological violence and oppression at the hands of Israel. there is nothing that anyone could say to me, that will ever in my eyes, justify the ongoing illegal and brutal occupation that the Palestinians are subjected to every single day. there is nothing anyone could say to me, that will convince me that Israel has the right to imprison an entire population of people.
there is no damn justification at all. people can bring up every fact, every link, every god damn conversation in the history of the situation, but there is nothing that the Palestinians have ever done that justifies this. not a damn thing.
here's a thought. people should be demanding that the international community stop simply condemning Israel's brutal and illegal blockade of Gaza, and start doing something to end it. talk is cheap isn't it. meanwhile, the suffering continues.
They must not value life very much over there... or they are fucking stupid in thinking this airstrike will be the last one needed or that next suicide bomber will be the one to end the conflict. Life must be cheap and mean very little if they continue to think that what they are doing is a success.
i value life. that's why i fight so hard to try and bring awareness to the injustices that the Palestinians in the occupied territories are subjected to every day Cosmo.
don't fool yourself that the firing of rockets compares to Israel's ongoing siege of Gaza. there is only ONE side occupying the other. the Palestinians are imprisoned in Gaza and have no military force other than guns and homemade rockets. Israel, has the most sophisticated weaponry in the world at its disposal and uses it without mercy. they bomb Gaza Strip with F-16 fighter planes and helicopter gun ships. they target civillians. their response is completely disproportionate to the damage caused by the rocket fire from Gaza, which is a retaliation for Israel's aggression and illegal occupation. israel is NOT under threat. the number of Israelis killed and injured by rockets has been very few compared to the Palestinians killed in Gaza. if you are interested, i can give you plenty of statistics to back this up.
who the fuck are Israel to punish an an entire population? their actions are illegal under international law. (Israel has proven time and time again that they don't give a rats ass about international law though). most of the 1.5 million Palestinians in Gaza are not combatants. they are just trying to live their life in peace, forced to live in apartheid conditions. ordinary beautiful people, families and children. how dare the Israel government treat them like that. they are locked up like animals and every single one of their basic human rights are denied because of the actions of a few?
the UN consistantly condemns the Israeli settlements in the occupied territories as illegal, and their treatment of the Palestinians as brutal and inhumane. the Palestinians have, and continue to sufffer years of physical and psychological violence and oppression at the hands of Israel. there is nothing that anyone could say to me, that will ever in my eyes, justify the ongoing illegal and brutal occupation that the Palestinians are subjected to every single day. there is nothing anyone could say to me, that will convince me that Israel has the right to imprison an entire population of people.
there is no damn justification at all. people can bring up every fact, every link, every god damn conversation in the history of the situation, but there is nothing that the Palestinians have ever done that justifies this. not a damn thing.
here's a thought. people should be demanding that the international community stop simply condemning Israel's brutal and illegal blockade of Gaza, and start doing something to end it. talk is cheap isn't it. meanwhile, the suffering continues.
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Hey... I'm just saying...
I don't think Israel is innocent in this thing... I think they are the one that holds most of the responsibility. But, i don't think the Palenstinians are faultless, either. Both sides need to come to a realization that the other one is here to stay. Based with that fact, maybe they can see each other as humans and work out a deal to live together.
But, since they don't... and continually send their people out to die in a perpetual cycle of payback killing... they must not place much value in human life... or they both think they are going to be the ones who get the last shot in and win the game.
Like I said... i think the people who believe airstrikes will stop the suicide bombing are as much asshole that think suicide bombings will stop the airstrikes. To those people... life is nothing to them because it is so easy for them to believe in killing.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Cosmo, regarding your earlier idea about letting Egypt be responsible for Gaza, an idea that is sort of similar to that has actually started to be thrown around in the Israeli press.
Basically, a lot of Israelis don't want to have anything to do with Gaza. They don't trust Hamas to keep the peace, but they've come to the conclusion that maintaining the blockade isn't effective (before anyone objects to the language just realize that the argument is strategic, and so intentionally doesn't really deal with moral concerns), and that at this point Israel would be better off having nothing to do with Gaza at all. What they suggest is that Israel announce that at some specified future date Israel will end the blockade (though they would retain the right to inspect Gaza-bound ships for weapons), and that they will at the same time close and seal their border with Gaza completely, and stop providing Gaza with all the services they currently provide (electricity, water, humanitarian aid, etc). The announcement would be made so as to allow enough time for Gaza to make provisions to get what they need from other countries, using sea routes and their border with Egypt. Essentially Israel would wash their hands of Gaza entirely.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
Cosmo, regarding your earlier idea about letting Egypt be responsible for Gaza, an idea that is sort of similar to that has actually started to be thrown around in the Israeli press.
Basically, a lot of Israelis don't want to have anything to do with Gaza. They don't trust Hamas to keep the peace, but they've come to the conclusion that maintaining the blockade isn't effective (before anyone objects to the language just realize that the argument is strategic, and so intentionally doesn't really deal with moral concerns), and that at this point Israel would be better off having nothing to do with Gaza at all. What they suggest is that Israel announce that at some specified future date Israel will end the blockade (though they would retain the right to inspect Gaza-bound ships for weapons), and that they will at the same time close and seal their border with Gaza completely, and stop providing Gaza with all the services they currently provide (electricity, water, humanitarian aid, etc). The announcement would be made so as to allow enough time for Gaza to make provisions to get what they need from other countries, using sea routes and their border with Egypt. Essentially Israel would wash their hands of Gaza entirely.
Gaza wishes that Israel would just fuck off and leave them alone. stop pretending that the pathetic bit of aid you may allow through is actually letting these people have an acceptable quality of life. how about you just going back to your accepted borders Israel.
how about you stop taking the land that is not yours. how about you stop expanding the illegal settlements. how about you stop taking 80% of the water and giving the Palestinians only 20%, how about you stop uprooting their olive tree and other groves at gunpoint, stop the blockades, stop the violence and abuse from illegal settlers, stop battering down villagers front doors in the dead of night at gun-point, pull down the illegal ‘separation’ wall you built, quit isolating their communities, enforcing blockades of exports and imports to cause economic ruin. how about you stop allowing sick people to die because they don't have access to timely health care.
and most of all stop pretending like you've done everything you can and have no idea why there is violence.
Cosmo, regarding your earlier idea about letting Egypt be responsible for Gaza, an idea that is sort of similar to that has actually started to be thrown around in the Israeli press.
Basically, a lot of Israelis don't want to have anything to do with Gaza. They don't trust Hamas to keep the peace, but they've come to the conclusion that maintaining the blockade isn't effective (before anyone objects to the language just realize that the argument is strategic, and so intentionally doesn't really deal with moral concerns), and that at this point Israel would be better off having nothing to do with Gaza at all. What they suggest is that Israel announce that at some specified future date Israel will end the blockade (though they would retain the right to inspect Gaza-bound ships for weapons), and that they will at the same time close and seal their border with Gaza completely, and stop providing Gaza with all the services they currently provide (electricity, water, humanitarian aid, etc). The announcement would be made so as to allow enough time for Gaza to make provisions to get what they need from other countries, using sea routes and their border with Egypt. Essentially Israel would wash their hands of Gaza entirely.
are you suggesting the services currently provided are adequate? you make it sound like Israel is doing the Palestinians a huge favour.
take note of the effect the blockade is having on the children.
Suffocating Gaza - the Israeli blockade's effects on Palestinians
Israel's military blockade of Gaza has left more than 1.4 million Palestinian men, women and children trapped in the Gaza Strip, an area of land just 40 kilometres long and 9.5 kilometres wide.
Mass unemployment, extreme poverty and food price rises caused by shortages have left four in five Gazans dependent on humanitarian aid. As a form of collective punishment, Israel’s continuing blockade of Gaza is a flagrant violation of international law.
Closed borders
Since the blockade of Gaza was imposed in June 2007, the five Israeli-controlled crossings between Gaza and Israel or the West Bank have been kept closed.
The one other land crossing at Rafah, on the border between Gaza and Egypt, is controlled by the Egyptian authorities and kept shut most of the time. The closures prevent the movement of Palestinians into and out of Gaza in all but a handful of cases, generally in exceptional humanitarian cases.
Basic goods
The blockade prohibits most exports and restricts the entry of basic goods, including food and fuel. Much of the available food is provided by the UN and other aid agencies, or smuggled in through tunnels running under the Egypt-Gaza border and then sold on at exorbitantly high prices to Gaza’s beleaguered residents.
The situation has been made worse by the Egyptian government’s construction of a steel wall along the border at Rafah to disrupt the cross-border smuggling that has become Gaza’s lifeline, as well as the bombing of tunnels by the Israeli airforce.
Economic collapse
Rather than targeting armed groups, the blockade mainly hits the most vulnerable, such as children (who make up more than half of the population in Gaza), the elderly, the sick and the Gaza Strip's large refugee population.
According to the United Nations Relief and Works Agency, the number of refugees living in abject poverty in the Gaza Strip has tripled since the blockade began. These families lack the means to purchase even the most basic items, including soap, school materials and clean drinking water. According to the UN, more than 60 per cent of households are currently "food insecure".
Lack of facilities
There are worsening problems with the supply of electricity in the Gaza Strip, with many residents enduring 8-12 hours of power cuts each day. There are also recurrent shortages of cooking gas, requiring the implementation of a rationing scheme in which hospitals and bakeries are prioritised.
Aid blocked
While Israel allows some humanitarian supplies from international aid agencies into Gaza, these are strictly limited and frequently delayed. UN agencies have said that additional storage and transportation costs incurred from delays due to the blockade totalled around $5 million in 2009.
Health
Gaza's health sector has been plagued by shortages in equipment and medical supplies during the blockade.
Following the Israeli closure of crossings, people with medical conditions that cannot be treated in Gaza have been required to apply for permits to leave the territory to receive treatment in either foreign hospitals or Palestinian hospitals in the West Bank.
The Israeli authorities frequently delay or refuse these permits; some Gazans have died while waiting to obtain permits to leave the territory for medical treatment elsewhere.
World Health Organization (WHO) trucks of medical equipment bound for Gazan hospitals have repeatedly been turned away, without explanation, by Israeli border officials.
The Gaza conflict
From 27 December 2008 to 18 January 2009, Gaza was subjected to a devastating Israeli military offensive – Operation “Cast Lead” – which Israel said it carried out to stop Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups firing indiscriminate rockets into Israel.
More then 1,380 Palestinians were killed, including more than 300 children and other civilians, and thousands were injured. Many thousands of homes were destroyed or severely damaged, as were the electricity and water systems. Civilian buildings, including hospitals and schools, were also damaged or destroyed by Israeli attacks.
Operation “Cast Lead” pushed the humanitarian crisis in Gaza to catastrophic levels. Since it concluded, the blockade has severely hampered or prevented reconstruction efforts. With many construction materials barred or limited by Israel, Gaza’s inhabitants are unable to rebuild their shattered lives.
Continued violence
In November 2009, Hamas declared a unilateral cessation of rocket fire, although this has since been breached on several occasions by members of Palestinian armed groups.
Since the ceasefire following Operation “Cast Lead” in January 2009, one person in southern Israel has been killed by mortars and rockets fired by Palestinian armed groups.
Israeli military forces, meanwhile, have conducted regular raids into Gaza and have continued to bomb the tunnels under the border at Rafah used for smuggling between Gaza and Egypt. In the year following Operation “Cast Lead”, 71 Palestinians were killed and 130 injured in the Gaza tunnels from tunnel collapse, accidents or airstrikes.
Israeli soldiers also continue to shoot at Palestinian farmers, fishermen and other civilians when they venture near Gaza’s perimeter or approach the three nautical mile limit that Israel imposes on Gaza’s coastline causing deaths and injuries.
Collective punishment
The Israeli authorities have put forward a range of justifications for the blockade - saying variously that it is a response to attacks from Palestinian armed groups, a reaction to the continued holding of the captured Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit, and a means to pressure the Hamas de facto administration.
But whatever its stated justification, the blockade is collectively punishing the entire population of Gaza, the majority of whom are children, rather than targeting the Hamas administration or armed groups.
Got to say it. Seems to me TA knows her shit! Can't argue with her. Well you can but probably lose. Compassion, will, fiesty, and humanitarian, all rolled up in one. That would be one awesome joint I'd smoke!!!! Keep your voice loud TA. Let everyone hear your message. I'm glad people like you exist and aren't affraid to speak out. And more importantly, never puts her tail between her legs and apologizes for what she feels or what she says, no matter how loud her voice is. As loud as her voice is, it needs to be louder. Turn that volume up TA, never mute your voice cuz a lot of us are listening and learning. Thanks TA!!!
are you are aware of the $3 billion in direct foreign assistance each year that the U.S. gives Israel, which is close enough to 1/5th of the US foreign aid budget? aid which backs and supports Israel's illegal and brutal occupation against the Palestinians which has been going on for years.
the US is funding the siege of gaza, if you're an american you are paying for brutality and repression and misery.
be outraged about that.
Most of this aid being military, TA is spot on. I would add this money funded the slaughter of thousands of Palestinians and is continuing to be used to oppress a people.
Part of this aid is also to help with the cost of bringing and settling jews from around the world in Israel.
again this logic makes no sense. Iran is miles away from there, why should the Palestinians be forced to relocate from their original homes? additionally, Israel is obviously the aggressor and the occupier in this conflict, why should we ignore their need to abide by international law and force another country to give up part of its territory because the Israelis don't want to give land back? Iran has every right to call out Israel's crimes, and all the countries who don't, including which ever Western country you live in (if it's the US then you should get my point) should be ashamed of themselves for letting this rogue state go on committing these crimes and massacres while facing no repercussions. is this not disturbing to you?
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I'm just saying... Arabs in the region constantly point to the Palestinian issue as a major sticking point in their relations with Israel...
not just Israeli relations with Palestinians but with the other Arab countries as well. Remember, Israel still occupies the Golan Heights which legally belongs to Syria.
but, how do they treat Palestinians in their countries? Like shit, right? If not Iran... then how about Syria, Lebannon or Jordan? They're always bitching about the Israeli/Palenstinian conflict... how about they open their doors to them (Palestinians)?
agreed. of course there is plenty of criticism of the Arab countries' treatment of Palestinian refugees but again this is just a side issue. There is a Palestinian problem to begin with because of Israel.
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what does this have to do with Israel's disregard for international law? because of Cosmo's theory that the Middle East is destined to be fucked up, we should ignore Israel's illegal oppression of Palestinians and let it go by unnoticed? the injustice to the Palestinians has gone on long enough and I think if you just reread what you wrote, you'd see the flaws in your language. if any other state had done this, kept up this occupation for this long, everyone would be condemning them to hell, whereas with this issue everyone says "there's two sides". how come there is no two sides to any other occupation in the history of the world? i like that phrase, "history of the world"
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I've read and reread this and can't make heads or tails out of it in the context of my comments. I'm therefore, writing this off as your predetermined rant about the injustices of Isreal (of which I agree on). If you want to discuss what the region would possibly be like if Israel were to pull up anchor and ship out, fine. But, save your little tirades for discussions concerned with them.
my point was that it is as if you are trying to justify the occupation. maybe justify is not the right word, but basically you are trying to excuse it when there should be no excusing it, Israel should not depend on any other country to fix the problem they created - they should just abide by international law and give the Palestinians their rightful home.
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But... as a side note: There are two sides in other occupations... U.S. occupation in Iraq, comes to mind. How about Germany's occupation in most of Europe in the early 1940? Britian's occupation of Northern Ireland... Rome's occupation of Judea? Weren't those also part of the 'History Of The World'?
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maybe that's how you see it, but I see the US occupation of Iraq, the German occupation of Europe, and the British occupation as morally reprehensible and I don't think there are "two sides" to those stories. Unless of course you would like to justify the Nazi occupation of Western Europe in the 1940s, then by all means go for it.
yes you are wrong. in fact you should know you're wrong by your categorization ... your usage of "they" to refer to everyone is startling. you know black people in the US are thieves right and drug dealers right? they must not care about the law, that's your logic right here, stereotypical and borderline racist.
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Okay... break out th 'Racist Card'. Can't you do ANY better than that? It's really sad... yet, Race Cards make me laugh because they are typically broken out in places where racism doesn't exist and are typically played by the simplest of minds.
I'm saying that the Arabs and the Israelis (hence, the ALL of Them comment) must not value life, if they continue to prolong this revenge killing... for what reason? You try to paint me as racist... well, here's more stuff so you can play that other Racist Card hidden up your sleeve:
It's like the gang wars in the streets of Los Angeles between Crips and Bloods. They revenge murder each other to gain what? At some point you'd think they'd come to a realization that they are killing each other out of habit, not necessity. And yes.. ALL of the Crips and Bloods are acting like assholes because they are killing eacth other for no other reason but, revenge.
the reason I said its borderline racist and it is an unquestionably stereotypical statement because of your obvious grouping of all people into one category. I don't care if you include Israel in that group either. your analogy to the gang wars fails miserably, this is not a war over prestige or control over drug trade or anything that these stupid gangs fight for. seriously? this was the best you could come up with? and the fact that you keep mentioning this notion of 'revenge' killings show you don't understand the nature of this conflict in the simplest terms.
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I suggest you read Robert Pape's "Dying to Win" where he assesses the strategic logic of suicide terrorism, I think it'll shed light on this last paragraph of yours that breathes ignorance.
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I'll check into it... and I'm certain there is strategic logic tied to suicide bombing. But, isn't there also strategic logic tied to airstrikes? Who's strategic logic is more logical?
that's not my point. my point is that it's not that these people simply don't value life. there is logic to it, as Pape argues in his book.
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Hey... I'm just saying...
I don't think Israel is innocent in this thing... I think they are the one that holds most of the responsibility. But, i don't think the Palenstinians are faultless, either.
such an easy statement to make. people think it makes them more "moderate" if they criticize both sides and that by being "moderate" they are "unbiased" and thus have a clear judgment on the situation. this does not apply to reality however. anyone who does a cursory studying of the history of this conflict will understand that not only does Israel hold most of the reponsibility, they hold the power to end this conflict by abiding my international law. this whole "Palestinians are not faultless" thing is pointless in comparison.
Both sides need to come to a realization that the other one is here to stay. Based with that fact, maybe they can see each other as humans and work out a deal to live together.
there is a growing movement for a binational solution. many palestinians accept this idea, one-state for two people. Israelis reject it because it goes against the notion of a "jewish state" (a racist, selfish idea that should be rejected by everyone in the world but for some reason it's accepted. when white people wanted the same thing in south africa it was eventually condemned but we seem to find it perfectly fine that Israelis stole a land from a people and do not want to give them equal status).
But, since they don't... and continually send their people out to die in a perpetual cycle of payback killing... they must not place much value in human life... or they both think they are going to be the ones who get the last shot in and win the game.
again, your ignorance on this issue shows. i may sound like a dick by the way i'm writing but whatever, the point is that this isn't as simple as "both sides send their people to die in a cycle of payback"... Israelis value life, just not Palestinian life. actually, not even American life, or the life of any other nation's citizens which has been shown by their history of attacking American citizens (just recently on the flotilla, also you should look up the sinking of the uss liberty), and even the zionist terrorist organizations before the founding of the state - they bombed the king david hotel in jerusalem killing a number of foreigners (mostly british nationals if i remember correctly)...
Like I said... i think the people who believe airstrikes will stop the suicide bombing are as much asshole that think suicide bombings will stop the airstrikes. To those people... life is nothing to them because it is so easy for them to believe in killing.
it's so easy for all of us to criticize, but why are we so quiet and complicit with Israel's violation of international law and persecution of millions of people?
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Look... if you just want to argue for arguements's sake... count me out.
And I really detest your method of taking one line or paragraph and taking it completely out of context. State your ideas, points and opinions in one, overall idea instead of nitpicking one sentence, one comment or one example.
If you have an overall disagreement with my opinion that both parties involved with the Israeli/Palestinian conflict hold responsibility fro prolonging this mess... then, state it out in ONE organized thought. Otherwise, put me on your ignore list because I'm done trying to debate you if all you have is rebuttals of singled out comments and relying on the moronic crutch of calling me ignorant.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
this is not directed at anyone in particular, it's just something i've noticed many times when having these discussions.
so often, people will say things like, ''yes i know Israel is the aggressor and what they are doing is wrong and disgusting", even Yosi, Israel's greatest apologist on the board, says "that the IDF is using ridiculously harsh measures" against the Palestinians. ok so we agree on that. then in the next breath, people want to spend so much time and effort 'talking about ''but they are both at fault". i obviously strongly disagree with the 'both at fault'' talk as there is only one country occupying another.
so i'm left wondering why all these people say how they can see that what Israel is doing is wrong, and they will fight and bicker about the "both at fault", and yet they won't put as much effort into speaking out on behalf of the Palestinians, and demand that the international community stop simply condemning Israel's brutal and illegal blockade of Gaza, and start doing something to end it.
that's pretty sad isn't it. and this might sound harsh but i dont care, it's how i feel. the Palestinians suffering continues while all this back and forth goes on. 1.5 million ordinary Palestinians are subject to unimaginable horrors every single day. so anyone who "pretends'' to be interested by debating in these threads, and then turns a blind eye to what is happening, is just fooling themselves and has blood on their hands too.
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Look... if you just want to argue for arguements's sake... count me out.
And I really detest your method of taking one line or paragraph and taking it completely out of context. State your ideas, points and opinions in one, overall idea instead of nitpicking one sentence, one comment or one example.
If you have an overall disagreement with my opinion that both parties involved with the Israeli/Palestinian conflict hold responsibility fro prolonging this mess... then, state it out in ONE organized thought. Otherwise, put me on your ignore list because I'm done trying to debate you if all you have is rebuttals of singled out comments and relying on the moronic crutch of calling me ignorant.
argue for argument's sake? what the hell are you talking about, all of my points are valid. if you don't want to respond because you can't then that's a separate issue.
and i have not taken anything out of context, your points are the same, i just split them up so i can respond to each individual point. this is a very weak attack on my style of argument, which i guess i don't blame you for since it's the best way for you to opt out of the discussion, you were clearly falling behind. if you would like me to clarify anything then you should feel free to ask...
this is not directed at anyone in particular, it's just something i've noticed many times when having these discussions.
so often, people will say things like, ''yes i know Israel is the aggressor and what they are doing is wrong and disgusting", even Yosi, Israel's greatest apologist on the board, says "that the IDF is using ridiculously harsh measures" against the Palestinians. ok so we agree on that. then in the next breath, people want to spend so much time and effort 'talking about ''but they are both at fault". i obviously strongly disagree with the 'both at fault'' talk as there is only one country occupying another.
so i'm left wondering why all these people say how they can see that what Israel is doing is wrong, and they will fight and bicker about the "both at fault", and yet they won't put as much effort into speaking out on behalf of the Palestinians, and demand that the international community stop simply condemning Israel's brutal and illegal blockade of Gaza, and start doing something to end it.
that's pretty sad isn't it. and this might sound harsh but i dont care, it's how i feel. the Palestinians suffering continues while all this back and forth goes on. 1.5 million ordinary Palestinians are subject to unimaginable horrors every single day. so anyone who "pretends'' to be interested by debating in these threads, and then turns a blind eye to what is happening, is just fooling themselves and has blood on their hands too.
absolutely. And you would think after all the back and forth on this board that most people here would at least have a better understanding of the situation.
I think a lot of people are affraid of being labeled an anti-Semite. But if they know what the word really means, then I dnt think theyd be as affraid. It's the most mis-used word in history. I just can't understand after all the debate on this topic, people still seem to be lost when it comes to the facts. In this day and age, with all the access to news outlets everywhere, they're still blind and confused. Read BOTH sides and hopefully your brain isn't fully programmed so that you can filter the bullshit out and come to your own conclusion. It doesn't matter if you agree with anyone, just know both sides so you dnt sound lame when you speak. I'm talking about everyone, not anybody in particular. The truths out there, you just got to want it to find it...
this is not directed at anyone in particular, it's just something i've noticed many times when having these discussions.
so often, people will say things like, ''yes i know Israel is the aggressor and what they are doing is wrong and disgusting", even Yosi, Israel's greatest apologist on the board, says "that the IDF is using ridiculously harsh measures" against the Palestinians. ok so we agree on that. then in the next breath, people want to spend so much time and effort 'talking about ''but they are both at fault". i obviously strongly disagree with the 'both at fault'' talk as there is only one country occupying another.
so i'm left wondering why all these people say how they can see that what Israel is doing is wrong, and they will fight and bicker about the "both at fault", and yet they won't put as much effort into speaking out on behalf of the Palestinians, and demand that the international community stop simply condemning Israel's brutal and illegal blockade of Gaza, and start doing something to end it.
that's pretty sad isn't it. and this might sound harsh but i dont care, it's how i feel. the Palestinians suffering continues while all this back and forth goes on. 1.5 million ordinary Palestinians are subject to unimaginable horrors every single day. so anyone who "pretends'' to be interested by debating in these threads, and then turns a blind eye to what is happening, is just fooling themselves and has blood on their hands too.
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Okay.. I understand your point. I'm not talking about the current naval blockade (which I believe Israel should lift... if there is someone that can GUARANTEE that there are no weapons or weapons making materials on board). I am talking about the entire conflict as a whole.
The question is... what is the solution to this conflict... not the blockade... but the ongoing conflict?
If your answer is, "Israel must leave, returning its land to the Palestinians"... that is not going to happen... not in the real world. The reality is, Israel is there to stay and are not going to leave and neither are the Palestinians. I take that back... I guess it **could** happen... if you either kill all of the Israelis or if you kill all of the Palestinians. If anyone has another viable scenario that can be applied, using real world variables... I'm all ears.
What I believe is that the current TACTICS of a cycle of violence that only results in counter-violence is not working and hasn't been working for the past 62 years. And both sides are guilty of violence towards the other.
What I am saying is that one side HAS to restrain from the return fire and say, "Hey... this is getting us no where. You're not going anywhere... neither am I. Let's sit down and work something out where we BOTH make compromises... and give up something, in order to live peacefully together and stop sending our people out to kill each other. Killing each other is not the answer... we HAVE to look at another method to end this."
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So yeah... I guess I AM ignorant on the matter. I really don't give a crap about who started what or who fired the first shot. I am ignorant in the fact that I don't understand the reasoning on behind the logic that airstrikes on civilian populations or lobbing rockets across the border into civilian populations will somehow solve the problem. I just want to come up with an idea that will end the conflict.
Someone who is enlightened on how continually killing each other will end the conflict... please, enlighten me.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Who's killing who? If you look at the statistics in last couple of years, I see one side doing almost ALL of the killing. And dnt forget, you're talking about one side that attacked a peace flotilla in the darkness and killing 9 humans(I'm not putting activists), just humans. Spin it anyway they want, they were humans. Not Muslims, Jews, or Christians, they were humans.
Who's killing who? If you look at the statistics in last couple of years, I see one side doing almost ALL of the killing. And dnt forget, you're talking about one side that attacked a peace flotilla in the darkness and killing 9 humans(I'm not putting activists), just humans. Spin it anyway they want, they were humans. Not Muslims, Jews, or Christians, they were humans.
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I don't get it, please, help me out... because of past killing... future killings are justified? Should the Palestinians be given a free reign of killing to catch up on the body count? Then, the stats would equal. Would that make it better? NOTE: That was a rhetorical question. Of course, you don't think leveling out the body count will not solve anything. Only the dimmest of those who walk amongst us would feel that way. I am just trying to question the role of statistical body count in this equation.
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I am not taking sides with either the Israelis or the Palesinians. Instead, I am opposed to BOTH of them because of what they are doing to each other. In my mind, killing each other is not the answer. I'm not concerned about the statistical body count because it makes the conflict more into a sport, than life versus death. In my book, killing is killing... whether you kill 16 in a rocket attack or suicide bomb or 160 in a massive airstrike. To me... killing is killing and both actions (rocket attacks and airstrikes) are wrong.
I'm saying the killing needs to stop.. because killing each other is not going to solve anything... unless one side completely exterminates the other. With complete extermination being out of the question.
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So, again, I ask... what can be done to move towards a long term solution to the ongoing conflict?
Post edited by Cosmo on
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Add:
This is the preamble to the South Africa Constitution:
"We, the people of South Africa, Recognize the injustices of our past; Honour those who suffered for justice and freedom in our land;
Respect those who have worked to build and develop our country; and Believe that South Africa belongs to all who live in it, united in our diversity. We therefore, through our freely elected representatives, adopt this Constitution as the supreme law of the Republic so as to —
Heal the divisions of the past and establish a society based on democratic values, social justice and fundamental human rights; Lay the foundations for a democratic and open society in which government is based on the will of the people and every citizen is equally protected by law;
Improve the quality of life of all citizens and free the potential of each person - Build a united and democratic South Africa able to take its rightful place as a sovereign state in the family of nations. May God protect our people."
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Now.. let me ward off any thoughts you may have that I am merely suggesting that the name 'South Africa' be replaced with 'Israel' or 'Palestine'. No... I clearly understand this will not apply, word for word.
It is the IDEA or BASIC PREMISE conveyed by this preamble is beautiful, in my opinion, and is what i think both Israelis and Palestinians should embrace.
It recognizes the injustices of the past and honors those who have died and suffered because of it. It recognizes the accomplishments the white settlers who have built and developed the country and accepts all as human of diverse race and culture.
It further says that in order to heal the wounds of the past, they must all move forward.
I think that basic premise can be applied in the Middle East. But, in order to do so, they all MUST heal the wounds of the past, NOT by forgetting about them, instead, recognizing that injustices have occurred and pay tribute to those who died and suffered because of it. From that jumping off point, they can all move forward towards a region that lives in peace.
I may be the only one who feels this way. I hope not.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
there is a growing movement for a binational solution. many palestinians accept this idea, one-state for two people. Israelis reject it because it goes against the notion of a "jewish state" (a racist, selfish idea that should be rejected by everyone in the world but for some reason it's accepted. when white people wanted the same thing in south africa it was eventually condemned but we seem to find it perfectly fine that Israelis stole a land from a people and do not want to give them equal status).
you must not have read this. palestinians don't actually believe that it is possible to kick israelis out of the land, it's simply impossible to do so, there are millions of them living there. palestinians are calling for their rights to be restored, including the right of return, and to live in one democratic binational state. i highly recommend you also read "One Country: A Bold Proposal to end the Israeli-Palestinian impasse" by Ali Abunimah, the co-founder of electronicintifada.net
Cosmo, you have much to learn about this conflict my friend....
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I'll concede that... but, I'm saying that retaliation with violent acts will not solve anything.
So... regarding the deaths of this specific Naval Blockade... I don't think the Israelis should be retailated against because it does not solve anything. Do you take the opposite viewpoint and believe that a retaliation resulting in death should be launched?
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
this is not directed at anyone in particular, it's just something i've noticed many times when having these discussions.
so often, people will say things like, ''yes i know Israel is the aggressor and what they are doing is wrong and disgusting", even Yosi, Israel's greatest apologist on the board, says "that the IDF is using ridiculously harsh measures" against the Palestinians. ok so we agree on that. then in the next breath, people want to spend so much time and effort 'talking about ''but they are both at fault". i obviously strongly disagree with the 'both at fault'' talk as there is only one country occupying another.
so i'm left wondering why all these people say how they can see that what Israel is doing is wrong, and they will fight and bicker about the "both at fault", and yet they won't put as much effort into speaking out on behalf of the Palestinians, and demand that the international community stop simply condemning Israel's brutal and illegal blockade of Gaza, and start doing something to end it.
that's pretty sad isn't it. and this might sound harsh but i dont care, it's how i feel. the Palestinians suffering continues while all this back and forth goes on. 1.5 million ordinary Palestinians are subject to unimaginable horrors every single day. so anyone who "pretends'' to be interested by debating in these threads, and then turns a blind eye to what is happening, is just fooling themselves and has blood on their hands too.
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Okay.. I understand your point. I'm not talking about the current naval blockade (which I believe Israel should lift... if there is someone that can GUARANTEE that there are no weapons or weapons making materials on board). I am talking about the entire conflict as a whole.
The question is... what is the solution to this conflict... not the blockade... but the ongoing conflict? If your answer is, "Israel must leave, returning its land to the Palestinians"... that is not going to happen... not in the real world. The reality is, Israel is there to stay and are not going to leave and neither are the Palestinians. I take that back... I guess it **could** happen... if you either kill all of the Israelis or if you kill all of the Palestinians. If anyone has another viable scenario that can be applied, using real world variables... I'm all ears.
What I believe is that the current TACTICS of a cycle of violence that only results in counter-violence is not working and hasn't been working for the past 62 years. And both sides are guilty of violence towards the other.
What I am saying is that one side HAS to restrain from the return fire and say, "Hey... this is getting us no where. You're not going anywhere... neither am I. Let's sit down and work something out where we BOTH make compromises... and give up something, in order to live peacefully together and stop sending our people out to kill each other. Killing each other is not the answer... we HAVE to look at another method to end this."
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So yeah... I guess I AM ignorant on the matter. I really don't give a crap about who started what or who fired the first shot. I am ignorant in the fact that I don't understand the reasoning on behind the logic that airstrikes on civilian populations or lobbing rockets across the border into civilian populations will somehow solve the problem. I just want to come up with an idea that will end the conflict.
Someone who is enlightened on how continually killing each other will end the conflict... please, enlighten me.
i just want to say something on the bit i highlighted Cosmo. you say not to talk about Israel leaving but they have to. that HAS to be the first step. i'm in favour of a binational solution and am actually opposed to a two state solution. but that's just me. i'll take the two state solution. before that even has a chance of happening, Israel has to cease all settlement expansion and return to the 67 borders. there is no way a real peace agreement will ever be reached without that happening.
having said that though Cosmo, pretty much the whole of the rest of the world is calling for a two state solution. Hamas has accepted that. the problem is that Israel refuses to abide by international law and cease expansion of settlements. they just keep on doing whatever they want regardless of the consequences. they refuse to acknowledge that the Palestinians have legal rights to a state. Israel has chosen war and occupation. they complain about the rockets that are fired. i'm not sure if you have any clue how ineffective these rockets are compared to what Israel uses. they have the most sophisticated weaponry in the world at its disposal and they use it without mercy. can't you see why the Palestinians use rockets? resistance is what comes with occupation. i don't know you personally, but i do see you fight here for what you believe in Cosmo. if you and your families were continually subjected to what the Palestinians are, i wonder if you would just lay down and not resist? that's how i think of it. what would i do? i hate violence Cosmo. Israels brutal, prolonged occupation would be enough to make the best of us snap.
Israel clearly have the advantage here. it's not war Cosmo. isn't war when two armies fight against each other? we're talking about 1.5 million people, caged in like animals, subjected to all sorts of inhuman treatment. if people really want peace, and i know i do, then we have to start holding Israel responsible for the conflict. any resistance that the Palestinians are showing is just an act. they have no hope. the Palestinians are the ones subject to occupation. they don't have any reason to give up resistance until Israel begins to treat them humanely. Israel as the occupier is completely responsible for these actions.
if you have a chance, please can you try and get a copy of Ali Abunimahs book, One Country. it's one of the best things i have ever read on the conflict and i would I recommend it to anyone who is honestly looking to either know more or to do something about the Palestine-Israel cause.
Cosmo, I wholeheartedly agree with you. Violence begets violence, and it is entirely necessary for both parties in this conflict to confront history honestly and acknowledge how each has harmed the other.
Triumphant, I agree with you as well. Israel needs to stop expanding the settlements and to begin the process of disengaging itself from the West Bank immediately. In practical terms, something that could be done immediately is to create financial incentives to lure the less ideological settlers to homes in Israel proper, while simultaneously getting rid of the incentives (tax breaks, etc.) that lead many people to choose to live in the settlements to begin with. The government needs to police the settlers much more actively, closing down new settlements quickly, and keeping them closed, and ensuring that Palestinians and their property are protected from harm. And they need to immediately start to create the conditions that will allow them to eventually move (forcibly if necessary) the vast majority of the settlers to new homes in Israel (for example, they should start building new communities in Israel proper that will be able to absorb settlers in large numbers).
A full return to the '67 borders isn't going to happen before a final peace agreement is reached, for the simple reason that this will inevitably involve placing Israel's major population and economic centers in easy range of even the crudest rockets. While I think that this withdrawal is inevitable and necessary, no Israeli government can take such a step absent a final accord that provides credible security guarantees (by the by, the new Palestinian security forces in the West Bank, which have been trained by the U.S., have taken over responsibility for day to day security in the major cities and towns of the West Bank, and have gotten high marks from their Israeli counterparts, with whom they apparently have a pretty good working relationship. This is a very good thing, since a capable Palestinian security force with the will to actually keep the peace in the West Bank goes a long way towards calming Israeli security fears). In any event, I agree that a withdrawal is necessary, and the sooner the better, and while I don't think the IDF can be pulled out before a final accord is signed, I certainly think that civilians (settlers) should be relocated as soon as possible.
With all that said, I have two final thoughts. The first, Triumphant, is that while I too can understand how anger and hopelessness can drive people to "resistance," it seems to me that you too easily forgive and justify Palestinian violence. When you simply say "well, they're under occupation, and that drove them to violence," what you are doing is shifting responsibility for Palestinian violence onto Israel. That is, to my mind, patronizing, in that it implicitly strips Palestinians of personal responsibility for their actions, and, from the perspective of a path to peace, counterproductive. If there is going to be peace it will require, as Cosmo has so rightly said, a shift in mindset, a willingness on both sides to honestly confront how each side has harmed the other. What you are saying is that Palestinians aren't really responsible for the violence they commit, and in doing so I really believe that you are re-enforcing a mindset that is inimical to peace and reconciliation.
The second point, simply, is that I just don't understand how anyone can take the bi-national state idea seriously. It's a nice concept, in theory, except for the fact that it is premised on the idea that it is OK to strip Israelis of their right to self-determination, which I believe to be wrong in principle, and more importantly, it ignores reality insofar as Israel will never agree to dissolve itself. If a bi-national state were imposed, more likely than not you'd end up with a civil war, which would almost assuredly be far more bloody (as civil wars tend to be) than any of the violence we have yet seen in this conflict.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
It's a nice concept, in theory, except for the fact that it is premised on the idea that it is OK to strip Israelis of their right to self-determination, which I believe to be wrong in principle.
You always state this Israeli right to self-determination. Stating that the concept is premised that it's OK to strip (!) Israel of their right is wrong and fear mongering on the Israeli side. ALL have a right to self-determination and, should there be a one state solution, ALL 'parties' (ie all religions/ethnic groups) will be represented and therefore have equal rights with the responsibilities that go with this. ALL will have the same right to this 'self-determination' which, in itself is a very complex issue (and I will not go into it or this post will last forever! Once can question what is really self-determination).
Naturally, Israel is not keen on this at all as, should a binational state exist, they know the 'jewishness' of the state will be lost and we know that this is not acceptable to zionist Israel.
With all that said, I have two final thoughts. The first, Triumphant, is that while I too can understand how anger and hopelessness can drive people to "resistance," it seems to me that you too easily forgive and justify Palestinian violence.
the Palestinians have the right to defend themselves AND resist the brutal Israeli occupation. it's not like anyone is rushing to their aid to do it for them is it? 1.5 million people forgotten, their suffering ignored by most of the world.
it's a video showing settler girls attacking students and teachers at Qurtaba School, blocking their way out of the school as a police officer filmed and soldiers watched. the settlers sing and chant in Hebrew, "there is no Palestine, this is Israel" and "there are no Palestinians." settler boys in the street then blocked the stairs by stoning the students as they tried to come down the stairs. the students scream and run, but are blocked from every direction. though the Israeli police and soldiers were on the scene, they did nothing to prevent injuries despite constant pleading for help from the internationals. documentarian Terje Carlsson filmed this incident. this is NOT an isolated incident.
do you understand Yosi, that this is the sort of treatment that the ordinary, beautiful children of Palestine are subjected to every single day. these are children. this is their life. they see the authorities stand back and do nothing. yet they dare throw rocks at heavily-armed and bullet-proofed Israeli occupation troops, and what's their punishment? they are thrown in Israeli jails. why is it ok for the IDF to sit back and do nothing to help the Palestinian children? what lesson does that teach them? it teaches them that no one cares about them. they have to fight to survive. if this was just an isolated incident it would be bad enough, but it's not. it's state-sponsored terrorism against defenseless children. children who are subjected to cruel and inhuman treatment at the hands of Israeli soldiers. and the purpose? there can only be one. they want to slowly and methodically crush their will for wanting to live free on their own land. things that we take for granted. is it really any wonder they grow up and one day and retaliate?
and from Rachel...
Just want to write to my Mom and tell her that I'm witnessing this chronic, insidious genocide and I'm really scared, and questioning my fundamental belief in the goodness of human nature. This has to stop. I think it is a good idea for us all to drop everything and devote our lives to making this stop. Disbelief and horror is what I feel. Disappointment. I am disappointed that this is the base reality of our world and that we, in fact, participate in it. This is not at all what I asked for when I came into this world. This is not at all what the people here asked for when they came into this world.
If any of us had our lives and welfare completely strangled, lived with children in a shrinking place where we knew, because of previous experience, that soldiers and tanks and bulldozers could come for us at any moment and destroy all the greenhouses that we had been cultivating for however long, and did this while some of us were beaten and held captive with 149 other people for several hours - do you think we might try to use somewhat violent means to protect whatever fragments remained? I think about this especially when I see orchards and greenhouses and fruit trees destroyed - just years of care and cultivation. I think about you and how long it takes to make things grow and what a labour of love it is. I really think, in a similar situation, most people would defend themselves as best they could. I think Uncle Craig would. I think probably Grandma would. I think I would.
- Rachel Corrie
the Palestinians have the right to defend themselves AND resist the brutal Israeli occupation.
Though not completely comparable, it is like the French resistance in occupied France during WWII. 'Freedom fighters' for the French, terrorists for the Nazis. It was considered 'heroic' and a even a duty to resist the occupier/oppressor and I don't think anyone has a problem with that. So, isn't it a bit the same with the occupied territories, wouldn't you think?
Triumphant, first of all, I am fine with Palestinians practicing self-defense. And quite frankly I am fine with Palestinians resisting the occupation. I fail to see how deliberately trying to murder civilians, regardless of whether it is with bomb belts or by firing rockets (however crude they may be) qualifies as either self-defense or resistance to the occupation. The "targets" of such violence aren't involved in attacking Palestinians when they are killed, so it is hard to see how self-defense would apply, and they are almost always killed within Israel proper, and not in the occupied territories.
I do not deny the brutality of the occupation. But you haven't dealt with the substance of my criticism.
Look, the Palestinians are people just like any other people. There have been others who have faced oppression and have made the choice to resist it without resorting to tactics of terrorism. I understand the argument Pape makes about terror being the weapon of the weak, but that is a matter of tactics and nothing more. Being the less powerful party does not strip you of the ability to choose your actions, nor does it absolve you of responsibility for your choices. I'm not going to be so cliche as to say that the Palestinians should be like Gandhi or King. Violence has its place. The first Intifada served a purpose. It woke Israelis up (most of them at least) and made them realize, probably for the first time, that the occupation was ultimately unsustainable. THAT was justified resistance. But now "resistance" has just calcified into this mantra that is repeated over and over again as a justification for everything the Palestinians do. They blow up a bus full of kids, "terrible, but they have a right to resist." They fire rockets into civilian neighborhoods, "terrible, but they're just resisting occupation."
You know those Chines finger traps, where you put a finger in each end, and the harder you pull to get them out the tighter the trap becomes? That's what happened to "resistance." Israelis (most of them at least) want nothing more than to be done with the Palestinians, to end the occupation and live in peace. The thing is that they have faced so much "resistance," they've seen so many people killed and maimed by Palestinians "resisting" occupation, that they no longer trust the Palestinians enough to feel safe as their neighbors. So Israelis allow the occupation to go on, even though they'd like it not to, because they've seen so much violence that they are now convinced that the guys next door just want to kill them no matter what, that "resistance" isn't about the occupation at all, but about Israel itself. It doesn't really matter whether they're right or not, that's what they think, so they figure that until things change, until the Palestinians no longer seem like they just want to kill Israelis, they'll be safer with the occupation than without it. I'm not saying they're justified in this. I'm just saying that this is the way it is. So what's happened is that the "resistance" is feeding the occupation. The more Palestinians "resist" the occupation with violence, the less likely it is that Israelis will feel secure enough to end the occupation. "Resistance" is doing the exact opposite of what it is supposed to do, but everyone is so caught up in the mantra, so intoxicated by it, so convinced that "resistance" is like inertia, the inevitable reaction against occupation, and that it is just fine for "resistance" to take the form of violence, that nobody stops to ask whether "resistance" is getting them anywhere. AND YOU, AND ALL THE PEOPLE WHO THINK LIKE YOU, ARE FEEDING THIS. What you don't get is that you are doing harm with the best intentions. By being an apologist for violence you are re-enforcing a mindset that prolongs the occupation that you'd like to see ended.
I'm not saying that Palestinians don't have a right to resist the occupation, or that they shouldn't exercise that right. What I'm saying is that they need to take responsibility for the manner in which they resist, for the means they employ, realizing that "resistance" is supposed to be a means to an end, not the end itself, and that the route they've chosen to take has actually taken them backwards.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
Comments
So... Gaza was never a part of Egypt... just occupied by Egypt? Okay then, Egypt is off the hook.
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I'm just saying... Arabs in the region constantly point to the Palestinian issue as a major sticking point in their relations with Israel... but, how do they treat Palestinians in their countries? Like shit, right? If not Iran... then how about Syria, Lebannon or Jordan? They're always bitching about the Israeli/Palenstinian conflict... how about they open their doors to them (Palestinians)?
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I've read and reread this and can't make heads or tails out of it in the context of my comments. I'm therefore, writing this off as your predetermined rant about the injustices of Isreal (of which I agree on). If you want to discuss what the region would possibly be like if Israel were to pull up anchor and ship out, fine. But, save your little tirades for discussions concerned with them.
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But... as a side note: There are two sides in other occupations... U.S. occupation in Iraq, comes to mind. How about Germany's occupation in most of Europe in the early 1940? Britian's occupation of Northern Ireland... Rome's occupation of Judea? Weren't those also part of the 'History Of The World'?
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Okay... break out th 'Racist Card'. Can't you do ANY better than that? It's really sad... yet, Race Cards make me laugh because they are typically broken out in places where racism doesn't exist and are typically played by the simplest of minds.
I'm saying that the Arabs and the Israelis (hence, the ALL of Them comment) must not value life, if they continue to prolong this revenge killing... for what reason? You try to paint me as racist... well, here's more stuff so you can play that other Racist Card hidden up your sleeve:
It's like the gang wars in the streets of Los Angeles between Crips and Bloods. They revenge murder each other to gain what? At some point you'd think they'd come to a realization that they are killing each other out of habit, not necessity. And yes.. ALL of the Crips and Bloods are acting like assholes because they are killing eacth other for no other reason but, revenge.
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I'll check into it... and I'm certain there is strategic logic tied to suicide bombing. But, isn't there also strategic logic tied to airstrikes? Who's strategic logic is more logical?
Hail, Hail!!!
don't fool yourself that the firing of rockets compares to Israel's ongoing siege of Gaza. there is only ONE side occupying the other. the Palestinians are imprisoned in Gaza and have no military force other than guns and homemade rockets. Israel, has the most sophisticated weaponry in the world at its disposal and uses it without mercy. they bomb Gaza Strip with F-16 fighter planes and helicopter gun ships. they target civillians. their response is completely disproportionate to the damage caused by the rocket fire from Gaza, which is a retaliation for Israel's aggression and illegal occupation. israel is NOT under threat. the number of Israelis killed and injured by rockets has been very few compared to the Palestinians killed in Gaza. if you are interested, i can give you plenty of statistics to back this up.
who the fuck are Israel to punish an an entire population? their actions are illegal under international law. (Israel has proven time and time again that they don't give a rats ass about international law though). most of the 1.5 million Palestinians in Gaza are not combatants. they are just trying to live their life in peace, forced to live in apartheid conditions. ordinary beautiful people, families and children. how dare the Israel government treat them like that. they are locked up like animals and every single one of their basic human rights are denied because of the actions of a few?
the UN consistantly condemns the Israeli settlements in the occupied territories as illegal, and their treatment of the Palestinians as brutal and inhumane. the Palestinians have, and continue to sufffer years of physical and psychological violence and oppression at the hands of Israel. there is nothing that anyone could say to me, that will ever in my eyes, justify the ongoing illegal and brutal occupation that the Palestinians are subjected to every single day. there is nothing anyone could say to me, that will convince me that Israel has the right to imprison an entire population of people.
there is no damn justification at all. people can bring up every fact, every link, every god damn conversation in the history of the situation, but there is nothing that the Palestinians have ever done that justifies this. not a damn thing.
here's a thought. people should be demanding that the international community stop simply condemning Israel's brutal and illegal blockade of Gaza, and start doing something to end it. talk is cheap isn't it. meanwhile, the suffering continues.
Hey... I'm just saying...
I don't think Israel is innocent in this thing... I think they are the one that holds most of the responsibility. But, i don't think the Palenstinians are faultless, either. Both sides need to come to a realization that the other one is here to stay. Based with that fact, maybe they can see each other as humans and work out a deal to live together.
But, since they don't... and continually send their people out to die in a perpetual cycle of payback killing... they must not place much value in human life... or they both think they are going to be the ones who get the last shot in and win the game.
Like I said... i think the people who believe airstrikes will stop the suicide bombing are as much asshole that think suicide bombings will stop the airstrikes. To those people... life is nothing to them because it is so easy for them to believe in killing.
Hail, Hail!!!
Basically, a lot of Israelis don't want to have anything to do with Gaza. They don't trust Hamas to keep the peace, but they've come to the conclusion that maintaining the blockade isn't effective (before anyone objects to the language just realize that the argument is strategic, and so intentionally doesn't really deal with moral concerns), and that at this point Israel would be better off having nothing to do with Gaza at all. What they suggest is that Israel announce that at some specified future date Israel will end the blockade (though they would retain the right to inspect Gaza-bound ships for weapons), and that they will at the same time close and seal their border with Gaza completely, and stop providing Gaza with all the services they currently provide (electricity, water, humanitarian aid, etc). The announcement would be made so as to allow enough time for Gaza to make provisions to get what they need from other countries, using sea routes and their border with Egypt. Essentially Israel would wash their hands of Gaza entirely.
how about you stop taking the land that is not yours. how about you stop expanding the illegal settlements. how about you stop taking 80% of the water and giving the Palestinians only 20%, how about you stop uprooting their olive tree and other groves at gunpoint, stop the blockades, stop the violence and abuse from illegal settlers, stop battering down villagers front doors in the dead of night at gun-point, pull down the illegal ‘separation’ wall you built, quit isolating their communities, enforcing blockades of exports and imports to cause economic ruin. how about you stop allowing sick people to die because they don't have access to timely health care.
and most of all stop pretending like you've done everything you can and have no idea why there is violence.
take note of the effect the blockade is having on the children.
Suffocating Gaza - the Israeli blockade's effects on Palestinians
© Amnesty International
1 June 2010
Israel's military blockade of Gaza has left more than 1.4 million Palestinian men, women and children trapped in the Gaza Strip, an area of land just 40 kilometres long and 9.5 kilometres wide.
Mass unemployment, extreme poverty and food price rises caused by shortages have left four in five Gazans dependent on humanitarian aid. As a form of collective punishment, Israel’s continuing blockade of Gaza is a flagrant violation of international law.
Closed borders
Since the blockade of Gaza was imposed in June 2007, the five Israeli-controlled crossings between Gaza and Israel or the West Bank have been kept closed.
The one other land crossing at Rafah, on the border between Gaza and Egypt, is controlled by the Egyptian authorities and kept shut most of the time. The closures prevent the movement of Palestinians into and out of Gaza in all but a handful of cases, generally in exceptional humanitarian cases.
Basic goods
The blockade prohibits most exports and restricts the entry of basic goods, including food and fuel. Much of the available food is provided by the UN and other aid agencies, or smuggled in through tunnels running under the Egypt-Gaza border and then sold on at exorbitantly high prices to Gaza’s beleaguered residents.
The situation has been made worse by the Egyptian government’s construction of a steel wall along the border at Rafah to disrupt the cross-border smuggling that has become Gaza’s lifeline, as well as the bombing of tunnels by the Israeli airforce.
Economic collapse
Rather than targeting armed groups, the blockade mainly hits the most vulnerable, such as children (who make up more than half of the population in Gaza), the elderly, the sick and the Gaza Strip's large refugee population.
According to the United Nations Relief and Works Agency, the number of refugees living in abject poverty in the Gaza Strip has tripled since the blockade began. These families lack the means to purchase even the most basic items, including soap, school materials and clean drinking water. According to the UN, more than 60 per cent of households are currently "food insecure".
Lack of facilities
There are worsening problems with the supply of electricity in the Gaza Strip, with many residents enduring 8-12 hours of power cuts each day. There are also recurrent shortages of cooking gas, requiring the implementation of a rationing scheme in which hospitals and bakeries are prioritised.
Aid blocked
While Israel allows some humanitarian supplies from international aid agencies into Gaza, these are strictly limited and frequently delayed. UN agencies have said that additional storage and transportation costs incurred from delays due to the blockade totalled around $5 million in 2009.
Health
Gaza's health sector has been plagued by shortages in equipment and medical supplies during the blockade.
Following the Israeli closure of crossings, people with medical conditions that cannot be treated in Gaza have been required to apply for permits to leave the territory to receive treatment in either foreign hospitals or Palestinian hospitals in the West Bank.
The Israeli authorities frequently delay or refuse these permits; some Gazans have died while waiting to obtain permits to leave the territory for medical treatment elsewhere.
World Health Organization (WHO) trucks of medical equipment bound for Gazan hospitals have repeatedly been turned away, without explanation, by Israeli border officials.
The Gaza conflict
From 27 December 2008 to 18 January 2009, Gaza was subjected to a devastating Israeli military offensive – Operation “Cast Lead” – which Israel said it carried out to stop Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups firing indiscriminate rockets into Israel.
More then 1,380 Palestinians were killed, including more than 300 children and other civilians, and thousands were injured. Many thousands of homes were destroyed or severely damaged, as were the electricity and water systems. Civilian buildings, including hospitals and schools, were also damaged or destroyed by Israeli attacks.
Operation “Cast Lead” pushed the humanitarian crisis in Gaza to catastrophic levels. Since it concluded, the blockade has severely hampered or prevented reconstruction efforts. With many construction materials barred or limited by Israel, Gaza’s inhabitants are unable to rebuild their shattered lives.
Continued violence
In November 2009, Hamas declared a unilateral cessation of rocket fire, although this has since been breached on several occasions by members of Palestinian armed groups.
Since the ceasefire following Operation “Cast Lead” in January 2009, one person in southern Israel has been killed by mortars and rockets fired by Palestinian armed groups.
Israeli military forces, meanwhile, have conducted regular raids into Gaza and have continued to bomb the tunnels under the border at Rafah used for smuggling between Gaza and Egypt. In the year following Operation “Cast Lead”, 71 Palestinians were killed and 130 injured in the Gaza tunnels from tunnel collapse, accidents or airstrikes.
Israeli soldiers also continue to shoot at Palestinian farmers, fishermen and other civilians when they venture near Gaza’s perimeter or approach the three nautical mile limit that Israel imposes on Gaza’s coastline causing deaths and injuries.
Collective punishment
The Israeli authorities have put forward a range of justifications for the blockade - saying variously that it is a response to attacks from Palestinian armed groups, a reaction to the continued holding of the captured Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit, and a means to pressure the Hamas de facto administration.
But whatever its stated justification, the blockade is collectively punishing the entire population of Gaza, the majority of whom are children, rather than targeting the Hamas administration or armed groups.
Exactly.
Most of this aid being military, TA is spot on. I would add this money funded the slaughter of thousands of Palestinians and is continuing to be used to oppress a people.
Part of this aid is also to help with the cost of bringing and settling jews from around the world in Israel.
... my point was that it is as if you are trying to justify the occupation. maybe justify is not the right word, but basically you are trying to excuse it when there should be no excusing it, Israel should not depend on any other country to fix the problem they created - they should just abide by international law and give the Palestinians their rightful home.
... maybe that's how you see it, but I see the US occupation of Iraq, the German occupation of Europe, and the British occupation as morally reprehensible and I don't think there are "two sides" to those stories. Unless of course you would like to justify the Nazi occupation of Western Europe in the 1940s, then by all means go for it. the reason I said its borderline racist and it is an unquestionably stereotypical statement because of your obvious grouping of all people into one category. I don't care if you include Israel in that group either. your analogy to the gang wars fails miserably, this is not a war over prestige or control over drug trade or anything that these stupid gangs fight for. seriously? this was the best you could come up with? and the fact that you keep mentioning this notion of 'revenge' killings show you don't understand the nature of this conflict in the simplest terms.
... that's not my point. my point is that it's not that these people simply don't value life. there is logic to it, as Pape argues in his book.
Look... if you just want to argue for arguements's sake... count me out.
And I really detest your method of taking one line or paragraph and taking it completely out of context. State your ideas, points and opinions in one, overall idea instead of nitpicking one sentence, one comment or one example.
If you have an overall disagreement with my opinion that both parties involved with the Israeli/Palestinian conflict hold responsibility fro prolonging this mess... then, state it out in ONE organized thought. Otherwise, put me on your ignore list because I'm done trying to debate you if all you have is rebuttals of singled out comments and relying on the moronic crutch of calling me ignorant.
Hail, Hail!!!
so often, people will say things like, ''yes i know Israel is the aggressor and what they are doing is wrong and disgusting", even Yosi, Israel's greatest apologist on the board, says "that the IDF is using ridiculously harsh measures" against the Palestinians. ok so we agree on that. then in the next breath, people want to spend so much time and effort 'talking about ''but they are both at fault". i obviously strongly disagree with the 'both at fault'' talk as there is only one country occupying another.
so i'm left wondering why all these people say how they can see that what Israel is doing is wrong, and they will fight and bicker about the "both at fault", and yet they won't put as much effort into speaking out on behalf of the Palestinians, and demand that the international community stop simply condemning Israel's brutal and illegal blockade of Gaza, and start doing something to end it.
that's pretty sad isn't it. and this might sound harsh but i dont care, it's how i feel. the Palestinians suffering continues while all this back and forth goes on. 1.5 million ordinary Palestinians are subject to unimaginable horrors every single day. so anyone who "pretends'' to be interested by debating in these threads, and then turns a blind eye to what is happening, is just fooling themselves and has blood on their hands too.
and i have not taken anything out of context, your points are the same, i just split them up so i can respond to each individual point. this is a very weak attack on my style of argument, which i guess i don't blame you for since it's the best way for you to opt out of the discussion, you were clearly falling behind. if you would like me to clarify anything then you should feel free to ask...
absolutely. And you would think after all the back and forth on this board that most people here would at least have a better understanding of the situation.
Okay.. I understand your point. I'm not talking about the current naval blockade (which I believe Israel should lift... if there is someone that can GUARANTEE that there are no weapons or weapons making materials on board). I am talking about the entire conflict as a whole.
The question is... what is the solution to this conflict... not the blockade... but the ongoing conflict?
If your answer is, "Israel must leave, returning its land to the Palestinians"... that is not going to happen... not in the real world. The reality is, Israel is there to stay and are not going to leave and neither are the Palestinians. I take that back... I guess it **could** happen... if you either kill all of the Israelis or if you kill all of the Palestinians. If anyone has another viable scenario that can be applied, using real world variables... I'm all ears.
What I believe is that the current TACTICS of a cycle of violence that only results in counter-violence is not working and hasn't been working for the past 62 years. And both sides are guilty of violence towards the other.
What I am saying is that one side HAS to restrain from the return fire and say, "Hey... this is getting us no where. You're not going anywhere... neither am I. Let's sit down and work something out where we BOTH make compromises... and give up something, in order to live peacefully together and stop sending our people out to kill each other. Killing each other is not the answer... we HAVE to look at another method to end this."
...
So yeah... I guess I AM ignorant on the matter. I really don't give a crap about who started what or who fired the first shot. I am ignorant in the fact that I don't understand the reasoning on behind the logic that airstrikes on civilian populations or lobbing rockets across the border into civilian populations will somehow solve the problem. I just want to come up with an idea that will end the conflict.
Someone who is enlightened on how continually killing each other will end the conflict... please, enlighten me.
Hail, Hail!!!
I don't get it, please, help me out... because of past killing... future killings are justified? Should the Palestinians be given a free reign of killing to catch up on the body count? Then, the stats would equal. Would that make it better?
NOTE: That was a rhetorical question. Of course, you don't think leveling out the body count will not solve anything. Only the dimmest of those who walk amongst us would feel that way. I am just trying to question the role of statistical body count in this equation.
...
I am not taking sides with either the Israelis or the Palesinians. Instead, I am opposed to BOTH of them because of what they are doing to each other. In my mind, killing each other is not the answer. I'm not concerned about the statistical body count because it makes the conflict more into a sport, than life versus death. In my book, killing is killing... whether you kill 16 in a rocket attack or suicide bomb or 160 in a massive airstrike. To me... killing is killing and both actions (rocket attacks and airstrikes) are wrong.
I'm saying the killing needs to stop.. because killing each other is not going to solve anything... unless one side completely exterminates the other. With complete extermination being out of the question.
...
So, again, I ask... what can be done to move towards a long term solution to the ongoing conflict?
Hail, Hail!!!
This is the preamble to the South Africa Constitution:
"We, the people of South Africa, Recognize the injustices of our past; Honour those who suffered for justice and freedom in our land;
Respect those who have worked to build and develop our country; and Believe that South Africa belongs to all who live in it, united in our diversity. We therefore, through our freely elected representatives, adopt this Constitution as the supreme law of the Republic so as to —
Heal the divisions of the past and establish a society based on democratic values, social justice and fundamental human rights; Lay the foundations for a democratic and open society in which government is based on the will of the people and every citizen is equally protected by law;
Improve the quality of life of all citizens and free the potential of each person - Build a united and democratic South Africa able to take its rightful place as a sovereign state in the family of nations. May God protect our people."
...
Now.. let me ward off any thoughts you may have that I am merely suggesting that the name 'South Africa' be replaced with 'Israel' or 'Palestine'. No... I clearly understand this will not apply, word for word.
It is the IDEA or BASIC PREMISE conveyed by this preamble is beautiful, in my opinion, and is what i think both Israelis and Palestinians should embrace.
It recognizes the injustices of the past and honors those who have died and suffered because of it. It recognizes the accomplishments the white settlers who have built and developed the country and accepts all as human of diverse race and culture.
It further says that in order to heal the wounds of the past, they must all move forward.
I think that basic premise can be applied in the Middle East. But, in order to do so, they all MUST heal the wounds of the past, NOT by forgetting about them, instead, recognizing that injustices have occurred and pay tribute to those who died and suffered because of it. From that jumping off point, they can all move forward towards a region that lives in peace.
I may be the only one who feels this way. I hope not.
Hail, Hail!!!
you must not have read this. palestinians don't actually believe that it is possible to kick israelis out of the land, it's simply impossible to do so, there are millions of them living there. palestinians are calling for their rights to be restored, including the right of return, and to live in one democratic binational state. i highly recommend you also read "One Country: A Bold Proposal to end the Israeli-Palestinian impasse" by Ali Abunimah, the co-founder of electronicintifada.net
I'll concede that... but, I'm saying that retaliation with violent acts will not solve anything.
So... regarding the deaths of this specific Naval Blockade... I don't think the Israelis should be retailated against because it does not solve anything. Do you take the opposite viewpoint and believe that a retaliation resulting in death should be launched?
Hail, Hail!!!
i just want to say something on the bit i highlighted Cosmo. you say not to talk about Israel leaving but they have to. that HAS to be the first step. i'm in favour of a binational solution and am actually opposed to a two state solution. but that's just me. i'll take the two state solution. before that even has a chance of happening, Israel has to cease all settlement expansion and return to the 67 borders. there is no way a real peace agreement will ever be reached without that happening.
having said that though Cosmo, pretty much the whole of the rest of the world is calling for a two state solution. Hamas has accepted that. the problem is that Israel refuses to abide by international law and cease expansion of settlements. they just keep on doing whatever they want regardless of the consequences. they refuse to acknowledge that the Palestinians have legal rights to a state. Israel has chosen war and occupation. they complain about the rockets that are fired. i'm not sure if you have any clue how ineffective these rockets are compared to what Israel uses. they have the most sophisticated weaponry in the world at its disposal and they use it without mercy. can't you see why the Palestinians use rockets? resistance is what comes with occupation. i don't know you personally, but i do see you fight here for what you believe in Cosmo. if you and your families were continually subjected to what the Palestinians are, i wonder if you would just lay down and not resist? that's how i think of it. what would i do? i hate violence Cosmo. Israels brutal, prolonged occupation would be enough to make the best of us snap.
Israel clearly have the advantage here. it's not war Cosmo. isn't war when two armies fight against each other? we're talking about 1.5 million people, caged in like animals, subjected to all sorts of inhuman treatment. if people really want peace, and i know i do, then we have to start holding Israel responsible for the conflict. any resistance that the Palestinians are showing is just an act. they have no hope. the Palestinians are the ones subject to occupation. they don't have any reason to give up resistance until Israel begins to treat them humanely. Israel as the occupier is completely responsible for these actions.
if you have a chance, please can you try and get a copy of Ali Abunimahs book, One Country. it's one of the best things i have ever read on the conflict and i would I recommend it to anyone who is honestly looking to either know more or to do something about the Palestine-Israel cause.
Triumphant, I agree with you as well. Israel needs to stop expanding the settlements and to begin the process of disengaging itself from the West Bank immediately. In practical terms, something that could be done immediately is to create financial incentives to lure the less ideological settlers to homes in Israel proper, while simultaneously getting rid of the incentives (tax breaks, etc.) that lead many people to choose to live in the settlements to begin with. The government needs to police the settlers much more actively, closing down new settlements quickly, and keeping them closed, and ensuring that Palestinians and their property are protected from harm. And they need to immediately start to create the conditions that will allow them to eventually move (forcibly if necessary) the vast majority of the settlers to new homes in Israel (for example, they should start building new communities in Israel proper that will be able to absorb settlers in large numbers).
A full return to the '67 borders isn't going to happen before a final peace agreement is reached, for the simple reason that this will inevitably involve placing Israel's major population and economic centers in easy range of even the crudest rockets. While I think that this withdrawal is inevitable and necessary, no Israeli government can take such a step absent a final accord that provides credible security guarantees (by the by, the new Palestinian security forces in the West Bank, which have been trained by the U.S., have taken over responsibility for day to day security in the major cities and towns of the West Bank, and have gotten high marks from their Israeli counterparts, with whom they apparently have a pretty good working relationship. This is a very good thing, since a capable Palestinian security force with the will to actually keep the peace in the West Bank goes a long way towards calming Israeli security fears). In any event, I agree that a withdrawal is necessary, and the sooner the better, and while I don't think the IDF can be pulled out before a final accord is signed, I certainly think that civilians (settlers) should be relocated as soon as possible.
With all that said, I have two final thoughts. The first, Triumphant, is that while I too can understand how anger and hopelessness can drive people to "resistance," it seems to me that you too easily forgive and justify Palestinian violence. When you simply say "well, they're under occupation, and that drove them to violence," what you are doing is shifting responsibility for Palestinian violence onto Israel. That is, to my mind, patronizing, in that it implicitly strips Palestinians of personal responsibility for their actions, and, from the perspective of a path to peace, counterproductive. If there is going to be peace it will require, as Cosmo has so rightly said, a shift in mindset, a willingness on both sides to honestly confront how each side has harmed the other. What you are saying is that Palestinians aren't really responsible for the violence they commit, and in doing so I really believe that you are re-enforcing a mindset that is inimical to peace and reconciliation.
The second point, simply, is that I just don't understand how anyone can take the bi-national state idea seriously. It's a nice concept, in theory, except for the fact that it is premised on the idea that it is OK to strip Israelis of their right to self-determination, which I believe to be wrong in principle, and more importantly, it ignores reality insofar as Israel will never agree to dissolve itself. If a bi-national state were imposed, more likely than not you'd end up with a civil war, which would almost assuredly be far more bloody (as civil wars tend to be) than any of the violence we have yet seen in this conflict.
You always state this Israeli right to self-determination. Stating that the concept is premised that it's OK to strip (!) Israel of their right is wrong and fear mongering on the Israeli side. ALL have a right to self-determination and, should there be a one state solution, ALL 'parties' (ie all religions/ethnic groups) will be represented and therefore have equal rights with the responsibilities that go with this. ALL will have the same right to this 'self-determination' which, in itself is a very complex issue (and I will not go into it or this post will last forever! Once can question what is really self-determination).
Naturally, Israel is not keen on this at all as, should a binational state exist, they know the 'jewishness' of the state will be lost and we know that this is not acceptable to zionist Israel.
please watch this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqvLtoWBpTU
it's a video showing settler girls attacking students and teachers at Qurtaba School, blocking their way out of the school as a police officer filmed and soldiers watched. the settlers sing and chant in Hebrew, "there is no Palestine, this is Israel" and "there are no Palestinians." settler boys in the street then blocked the stairs by stoning the students as they tried to come down the stairs. the students scream and run, but are blocked from every direction. though the Israeli police and soldiers were on the scene, they did nothing to prevent injuries despite constant pleading for help from the internationals. documentarian Terje Carlsson filmed this incident. this is NOT an isolated incident.
do you understand Yosi, that this is the sort of treatment that the ordinary, beautiful children of Palestine are subjected to every single day. these are children. this is their life. they see the authorities stand back and do nothing. yet they dare throw rocks at heavily-armed and bullet-proofed Israeli occupation troops, and what's their punishment? they are thrown in Israeli jails. why is it ok for the IDF to sit back and do nothing to help the Palestinian children? what lesson does that teach them? it teaches them that no one cares about them. they have to fight to survive. if this was just an isolated incident it would be bad enough, but it's not. it's state-sponsored terrorism against defenseless children. children who are subjected to cruel and inhuman treatment at the hands of Israeli soldiers. and the purpose? there can only be one. they want to slowly and methodically crush their will for wanting to live free on their own land. things that we take for granted. is it really any wonder they grow up and one day and retaliate?
and from Rachel...
Just want to write to my Mom and tell her that I'm witnessing this chronic, insidious genocide and I'm really scared, and questioning my fundamental belief in the goodness of human nature. This has to stop. I think it is a good idea for us all to drop everything and devote our lives to making this stop. Disbelief and horror is what I feel. Disappointment. I am disappointed that this is the base reality of our world and that we, in fact, participate in it. This is not at all what I asked for when I came into this world. This is not at all what the people here asked for when they came into this world.
If any of us had our lives and welfare completely strangled, lived with children in a shrinking place where we knew, because of previous experience, that soldiers and tanks and bulldozers could come for us at any moment and destroy all the greenhouses that we had been cultivating for however long, and did this while some of us were beaten and held captive with 149 other people for several hours - do you think we might try to use somewhat violent means to protect whatever fragments remained? I think about this especially when I see orchards and greenhouses and fruit trees destroyed - just years of care and cultivation. I think about you and how long it takes to make things grow and what a labour of love it is. I really think, in a similar situation, most people would defend themselves as best they could. I think Uncle Craig would. I think probably Grandma would. I think I would.
- Rachel Corrie
Though not completely comparable, it is like the French resistance in occupied France during WWII. 'Freedom fighters' for the French, terrorists for the Nazis. It was considered 'heroic' and a even a duty to resist the occupier/oppressor and I don't think anyone has a problem with that. So, isn't it a bit the same with the occupied territories, wouldn't you think?
I do not deny the brutality of the occupation. But you haven't dealt with the substance of my criticism.
Look, the Palestinians are people just like any other people. There have been others who have faced oppression and have made the choice to resist it without resorting to tactics of terrorism. I understand the argument Pape makes about terror being the weapon of the weak, but that is a matter of tactics and nothing more. Being the less powerful party does not strip you of the ability to choose your actions, nor does it absolve you of responsibility for your choices. I'm not going to be so cliche as to say that the Palestinians should be like Gandhi or King. Violence has its place. The first Intifada served a purpose. It woke Israelis up (most of them at least) and made them realize, probably for the first time, that the occupation was ultimately unsustainable. THAT was justified resistance. But now "resistance" has just calcified into this mantra that is repeated over and over again as a justification for everything the Palestinians do. They blow up a bus full of kids, "terrible, but they have a right to resist." They fire rockets into civilian neighborhoods, "terrible, but they're just resisting occupation."
You know those Chines finger traps, where you put a finger in each end, and the harder you pull to get them out the tighter the trap becomes? That's what happened to "resistance." Israelis (most of them at least) want nothing more than to be done with the Palestinians, to end the occupation and live in peace. The thing is that they have faced so much "resistance," they've seen so many people killed and maimed by Palestinians "resisting" occupation, that they no longer trust the Palestinians enough to feel safe as their neighbors. So Israelis allow the occupation to go on, even though they'd like it not to, because they've seen so much violence that they are now convinced that the guys next door just want to kill them no matter what, that "resistance" isn't about the occupation at all, but about Israel itself. It doesn't really matter whether they're right or not, that's what they think, so they figure that until things change, until the Palestinians no longer seem like they just want to kill Israelis, they'll be safer with the occupation than without it. I'm not saying they're justified in this. I'm just saying that this is the way it is. So what's happened is that the "resistance" is feeding the occupation. The more Palestinians "resist" the occupation with violence, the less likely it is that Israelis will feel secure enough to end the occupation. "Resistance" is doing the exact opposite of what it is supposed to do, but everyone is so caught up in the mantra, so intoxicated by it, so convinced that "resistance" is like inertia, the inevitable reaction against occupation, and that it is just fine for "resistance" to take the form of violence, that nobody stops to ask whether "resistance" is getting them anywhere. AND YOU, AND ALL THE PEOPLE WHO THINK LIKE YOU, ARE FEEDING THIS. What you don't get is that you are doing harm with the best intentions. By being an apologist for violence you are re-enforcing a mindset that prolongs the occupation that you'd like to see ended.
I'm not saying that Palestinians don't have a right to resist the occupation, or that they shouldn't exercise that right. What I'm saying is that they need to take responsibility for the manner in which they resist, for the means they employ, realizing that "resistance" is supposed to be a means to an end, not the end itself, and that the route they've chosen to take has actually taken them backwards.