U.S. to aid $400 million to Palastine..

1234568»

Comments

  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    yosi wrote:
    It's not that they have no control, it's that for the moment they have ceded the field. I want this very much to not be the case. As I've said I think the settlers are out of their minds and a danger to Israel. But getting the Israeli majority to confront these nutbags is difficult for reasons I've spelled out above. I don't think it would be any easier for the Palestinians to take control of their own extremists. In fact I'm quite sure it would be even more difficult. But I'm convinced that there will not be peace until they do (not that they have to do this first - again this isn't some turn based game - just that extremists on both sides have a history of sinking peace deals, and they will have to be confronted and dealt with for peace to be had). When I talk about Palestinian violence re-enforcing Israeli fears I'm not saying that Israel can't do anything before the Palestinians change their actions. They can and they should. But a shift towards non-violence would push Israelis in the right direction, and embolden Israeli moderates to do what has to be done. Likewise, I'm sure that a change in Israeli behavior would help moderate Palestinians in the same way. So it's not about "first Israel has to do this, or first the Palestinians have to do this," it's that both sides need to change, and this is difficult for both of them. It doesn't matter who starts changing their actions first, but it is unrealistic to expect that one side or the other will change entirely before the other. It has to be a mutual process, because I think for both Palestinians and Israelis there is only so far they will be willing to go on their own without seeing the changes occurring on the other side as well. They need to shift together so that each re-enforces the other.

    Redrock, I'm sorry that I confused you with Polaris. It was 3 am and I was tired. If you want an answer just remind me what you're talking about because I just don't remember. Please stop being an insulting prick for no reason.

    which leads us to my previous point that if no one does anything and the status quo is the same - there will be one side that will be suffering more than the other ...

    ultimately, i speak for myself in this regard, although i know that any palestinian resistance or retaliation will not help the so called peace process ... i feel that they have suffered far too long and that hope must surely be lost for so many ... sitting idly by while you get treated like shit and to see your land taken away with no one there to protect you ... at some point - that anger will always translate to violence ... right or wrong ... this is the nature of israeli actions ... i know for a fact that if i slapped a thousand strangers in the face every day for a year ... at some point ... many of them will slap back ...
  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,167
    ...and then you slap him for slapping you and he slaps you for slapping him and you slap him for slapping you and he slaps you for slapping him...eventually you'll both have to decide to stop slapping each other or just go on forever.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • fuck
    fuck Posts: 4,069
    yosi wrote:
    Israel doesn't control whether Palestinians shoot rockets at them.
    Yes they do. If the Israelis would withdraw from the occupied territories and ease the illegal siege on Gaza then rockets would stop. In fact, this isn't even hypothetical. It has already been proven that rockets would stop during the truce from June 2007 until December 2007. Hamas held to its deal of not shooting rockets, whereas Israel lied and kept the brutal siege of Gaza in tact.

    Israel wants to continue its occupation and wants to keep stealing land. This is the truth. Why do settlements keep continuing? Quit acting like settlements only continue because of Netanyahu's government. During the fake Oslo "peace" process, settlements were increasing at a ridiculous rate! Israelis don't want a true peace settlement with the Palestinians. Settlements have not stopped, I don't care how much you say you want it to stop yosi, Israelis clearly don't give a fuck about them enough to make their government stop.
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    yosi wrote:
    ...and then you slap him for slapping you and he slaps you for slapping him and you slap him for slapping you and he slaps you for slapping him...eventually you'll both have to decide to stop slapping each other or just go on forever.

    the difference is that my perpetual slapping is non-stop while the strangers get a slap in every year or so
  • Pepe Silvia
    Pepe Silvia Posts: 3,758
    redrock wrote:
    yosi wrote:
    Please stop being an insulting prick for no reason.
    Look who's talking. I don't believe there was any insult in my post. And I don't think I can qualify as a 'prick'.


    especially when it seems like yosi is the main one throwing insults :roll:
    don't compete; coexist

    what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?

    "I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama

    when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
    i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,167
    What I find so upsetting is that instead of trying to support those who are trying to help the Palestinians, most of the people on this site who are "pro-Palestinian" seem more than happy to enable the worst elements in Palestinian society. It's like you have a friend addicted to drugs and he's in pain, but instead of making him confront his problem you just give him more drugs so the pain will go away. Palestinian violence is understandable. It is an emotional response to oppression, and at the very least gives Palestinians a sense of dignity from refusing to bow down. But when all is said and done it Palestinian violence hurts the Palestinian cause. I hope that someday you can all come to see that.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    yosi wrote:
    What I find so upsetting is that instead of trying to support those who are trying to help the Palestinians, most of the people on this site who are "pro-Palestinian" seem more than happy to enable the worst elements in Palestinian society. It's like you have a friend addicted to drugs and he's in pain, but instead of making him confront his problem you just give him more drugs so the pain will go away. Palestinian violence is understandable. It is an emotional response to oppression, and at the very least gives Palestinians a sense of dignity from refusing to bow down. But when all is said and done it Palestinian violence hurts the Palestinian cause. I hope that someday you can all come to see that.

    if you read what i wrote just a few posts ago - you will see that is has already been acknowledged ... although i cannot truly speak for everyone, i do feel that most of us you consider to be "pro-palestinian" do not wish for anymore innocent blood to be spilt on either side ... we will always side with humanity on almost every other issue ... what it comes down to is that this affair has been sooo one-sided in its consequence that it is hard for us to empathize with a populace that oppresses ... like i have been saying ... if israelis do not save the palestinian people - there is no hope for them ... international efforts are met with political agendas and in the end - there is not much to show for it ...
  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,167
    Well, I'm just not satisfied with an attitude that says, essentially, there's nothing we can do, so let's not even try. The longer there is no peace the longer Palestinians suffer, and I just cannot understand how anyone can claim to care about the Palestinians, but stand by silently while Palestinians irrationally add fuel to the fire of their own suffering.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    yosi wrote:
    ......but stand by silently while Palestinians irrationally add fuel to the fire of their own suffering.
    I really don't think 'we' are standing by silently, far from that. There is worldwide condemnation of the aggressor, resolutions in place to stop all of this and ease the suffering (but Israel couldn't give a shit), etc. Again... you seem to be blaming the Palestinians for their plight (though of course you don't play the blaming game). Irrationally??? :roll: ISRAEL is the cause of their suffering. Should ISRAEL decide to put out the fire they started, there would be nothing for the Palestinians to stoke.
  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,167
    This isn't an either/or situation. It isn't as if the Palestinians taking actions means that Israel doesn't have to also, and vice versa. And you aren't affecting a real change by ranting about how much you hate Israel. I take it upon myself to try to speak with Israelis I know and to get them to see what I see, to see the conflict from my perspective, because it's all too easy too be blinded by pain and anger when you're in the middle of it. You all should do the same for the Palestinians. Help them to see that there are better alternatives to violence, alternatives that don't invite violence in turn, that don't undermine trust, if you prefer to frame it this way, that don't hand Israel easy excuses.

    Or you can keep doing what you're doing, pointing fingers and changing nothing at all.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    yosi wrote:
    I take it upon myself to try to speak with Israelis I know ..... You all should do the same for the Palestinians.. .

    I guess it's a bit easier to speak to Israelis as Israelis have free movement, can go abroad, etc. and tourists and others who wish to visit Israel have free access to the country. Also, Israelis have access to international news/tv channels/papers/internet, etc. and one would think they would be able to inform themselves (and not just rely on Israeli propaganda) and not have such a blinkered view of things. They would then start to understand how things are and what the international community's position is and what Israel needs to do (UN resolutions - remember those?). Most would probably still not care.

    Speaking to Palestinians is a 'tad' bit more difficult seeing one cannot get into the country, electricity and goods being limited, not many people will have a computer to be able to 'connect' with the world. Even if these means of electronic communication were readily available, most people in Gaza do not have money or homes are destroyed and whatever money they may have will be going to basic goods to enable them to feed their children.

    Israel is not doing much to enable 'change' are they? On the contrary..... Again, I would ask you to turn the tables.... Again, you are putting the onus on Gaza (not giving Israel easy 'excuses' - Israel does not need excuses)

    Also, I don't think anyone said anything about hating Israel. You are again putting words in our mouths.
  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,167
    No, Israel is certainly not doing enough. Not nearly. But that is not an excuse for the Palestinians not to do their part, or for their supporters not to push them in the right direction.

    Israelis are not relying on government propaganda. The press in Israel is free and vibrant. It is not state controlled, and it is quite often very critical of the government. In fact I'd say that most Israelis recognize that their country is currently suffering an extreme crisis in leadership, and they view the pronouncements of the government with a healthy degree of skepticism. You are assuming that their is only one "correct" way to view this conflict, that there is an objective truth, and that it is exactly what you believe it is. Israelis have a very different perspective, one that I think is no less true than your own. You don't seem capable of accepting this, that the narratives of both sides of this conflict are both true and that at the same time they obscure the equally valid truth of the other side. So you just write off the Israeli narrative to propaganda, which is really very convenient, but it doesn't reflect the reality.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    yosi wrote:
    So you just write off the Israeli narrative to propaganda, .

    Hmmmn...... doctored tapes, blatant lies, gagging of 'others'.... yep... I call that propaganda. And not just this time for the attack on the aid flotilla but numerous other occasions.

Categories