Redrock, I think the Israelis are victims. I think the Palestinians are victims. I'm not saying that the occupation is the Palestinians' fault. Clearly it isn't. What I am saying is that the actions that are currently being taken by many Palestinians, and which are summarily and unthinkingly termed "resistance," and therefore, if not justified, then certainly excusable, are in fact counterproductive to the ultimate cause of ending the occupation. And I think that insofar as people who care about the Palestinians continue to excuse their actions uncritically they are enabling the Palestinians in shooting themselves in the foot. What matters is results, and terrorism is manifestly not getting results. You can claim that lobbing rockets at Israeli civilians is an act of resistance all you want (and I'd ask you to explain how it is that attacking civilians inside Israel proper, rather than an actual manifestation of the occupation, qualifies as resistance to the occupation), but what is actually gained by such actions? All it does is terrorize and antagonize the Israeli public, making them less willing, rather than more willing, to risk their physical security for peace.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
Yosi, you may not have said in such words that Israel is a victim (as least this time), but you have laid the fault with the palestinians.
I don't see why you think the actions of the palestinians are 'unthinkingly' termed resistance. This is a perfectly fitting word. And, again referencing the french resistance (whence this term was coined), 'resistance' is not limited to the occupied country. There have been cross border actions during that time too. The maquis were guerrillas, not dis-similar to the palestinian fighters who use guerrilla warfare tactics.
What is actually gained from their actions? They fight for their family, their livelihood, their freedom and right to self-determination (a term you love to use). They have a few rockets and stones fighting mighty Israeli army backed by the 'strongest' nation. Let's turn the tables... what is/has been gained from Israeli actions, besides terrorizing, antagonizing (mild word), humiliating and oppressing the Palestinians? Hmmmmm..... food for thought, eh? Well, maybe food for thought for most. Maybe you think the palestinians should just bend over and submit. Don't do anything. Just let Israel do what it wants, when it wants.
I certainly do NOT think that the Palestinians should submit, and I fervently believe that Israel does NOT gain from the occupation, but is actually severely harmed by it. The occupation is, without a doubt, the biggest mistake and the greatest tragedy in the history of Israel, and it has been from the moment it began.
I do not lay THE fault with the Palestinians. I lay some fault with them. There is more than enough to go around. I'm not going to get into a discussion of what can and cannot legitimately be called resistance because that is really beside the point. What I'm interested in is practical reality, and the reality as I see it is that violence can be useful in certain situations and harmful in others. What I'm arguing is that is this situation Palestinian violence (and Israeli violence) are obstacles to ending the occupation and bringing peace (this seems almost too obvious to have to put in writing).
When you say that they are "fight[ing] for their family, their livelihood, their freedom and right to self-determination" you seem to be saying, if I may make an inference, that they are fighting so as to maintain their dignity. I can understand that, but the fact remains that when it comes to ACTUALLY ENDING THE OCCUPATION their actions are not only unproductive, but counterproductive.
I'm not saying they should submit, I'm saying they should choose a more productive way of resisting. Just look at the West Bank today. Clearly, the occupation persists, but Abbas and Fayyad seem to be succeeding in building the functional institutions that will be able to serve a future state. With American assistance, which has gone very much unheralded, they have trained a modern, capable, and by all accounts honest and accountable security force, which has now taken over from the IDF the daily security of the major West Bank towns and cities. In response to the Palestinians taking control of local security, and proving that they are up to the task, Israel has eased the restrictions imposed on Palestinians, reducing the number of roadblocks in the West Bank from (I believe 48) to 12 today.
Now, in the grand scheme of things this is clearly only a very minor improvement. But my point is that one wouldn't say that the Palestinians in the West Bank have submitted to the occupation. Rather I'd say that they have productively shifted their energies from pointlessly and violently lashing out at Israel (thereby confirming Israelis worst fears that the Palestinians cannot be trusted and mean them only harm) to productively building an embryonic state. The leadership in the West Bank has taken responsibility for what happens on its watch, seems to be doing its best to rein in violence (and seems to be successful in doing so), and has begun the long process of building up their future state. These are tangible accomplishments in which Palestinians can and should take pride, and Israel has responded to these developments in a positive way (though I think Israel could and should be doing more).
At the end of the day I really do want what is best for the Palestinians, because Israel and Palestine are joined at the hip, and what is good for one is good for the other. I'm arguing for a step back from the brink and a re-evaluation of what is pragmatically gained from violence. Shooting rockets at Israel may give people a sense of dignity, a feeling that they are not insignificant and can strike back at oppression. But it doesn't make their families safer. It puts them even more in harms way. It doesn't improve their livelihoods. It makes economic improvement even more remote. It certainly isn't bringing them freedom, or a state of their own. All of these things are being accomplished, however, in the West Bank, where the economy is better, the people are safer, and the institutions of a state are actually taking shape, and all of this is happening because the leadership there has made the simple realization that a lot more can be achieved by not resorting to violence.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
At the end of the day I really do want what is best for the Palestinians, because Israel and Palestine are joined at the hip, and what is good for one is good for the other. I'm arguing for a step back from the brink and a re-evaluation of what is pragmatically gained from violence. Shooting rockets at Israel may give people a sense of dignity, a feeling that they are not insignificant and can strike back at oppression. But it doesn't make their families safer. It puts them even more in harms way. It doesn't improve their livelihoods. It makes economic improvement even more remote. It certainly isn't bringing them freedom, or a state of their own. All of these things are being accomplished, however, in the West Bank, where the economy is better, the people are safer, and the institutions of a state are actually taking shape, and all of this is happening because the leadership there has made the simple realization that a lot more can be achieved by not resorting to violence.
we are circling tho ... sure, suicide bombings and "rocket" attacks will not help the palestinian cause but as each day goes by - there is movement to expand even further ...
if you truly want the best of palestinians - then you should join the voices that decry the violent acts committed by the state of israel ... you must voice your objection to their propaganda machine that has fooled many israelis into believing things that are most definitely not true ...
the PR/propaganda machine was shown for all the world to see in this latest incident with the floatilla ... their blatant lies have been exposed ... where are the voices of israelis who believe in human rights and truth? ...
i, too would like nothing more than two peoples to live in harmony side by side ... but that cannot happen until israel accepts responsibility for their actions and are willing to treat palestinians the way they wish to be treated ...
At the end of the day I really do want what is best for the Palestinians, because Israel and Palestine are joined at the hip, and what is good for one is good for the other. I'm arguing for a step back from the brink and a re-evaluation of what is pragmatically gained from violence. Shooting rockets at Israel may give people a sense of dignity, a feeling that they are not insignificant and can strike back at oppression. But it doesn't make their families safer. It puts them even more in harms way. It doesn't improve their livelihoods. It makes economic improvement even more remote. It certainly isn't bringing them freedom, or a state of their own. All of these things are being accomplished, however, in the West Bank, where the economy is better, the people are safer, and the institutions of a state are actually taking shape, and all of this is happening because the leadership there has made the simple realization that a lot more can be achieved by not resorting to violence.
we are circling tho ... sure, suicide bombings and "rocket" attacks will not help the palestinian cause but as each day goes by - there is movement to expand even further ...
if you truly want the best of palestinians - then you should join the voices that decry the violent acts committed by the state of israel ... you must voice your objection to their propaganda machine that has fooled many israelis into believing things that are most definitely not true ...
the PR/propaganda machine was shown for all the world to see in this latest incident with the floatilla ... their blatant lies have been exposed ... where are the voices of israelis who believe in human rights and truth? ...
i, too would like nothing more than two peoples to live in harmony side by side ... but that cannot happen until israel accepts responsibility for their actions and are willing to treat palestinians the way they wish to be treated ...
there are many israeli's upset about the actions of their country but it's the same as in my country, they just don't get any news coverage. there were protests in israel over the flotilla attack but it wasn't really shown in the israeli media
don't compete; coexist
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
Polaris, I try to do my part in a manner that is constructive rather than accusatory. I don't agree that Israelis are fooled by some malicious propaganda machine deployed by their government. Israel has a free and vigorous press, which regularly criticizes the Israeli government fiercely. With regard to the flotilla, we disagree about what happened, and we each believe the other to be misinformed. But that is really beside the point.
From what I've seen, I believe that Israel is all too often criticized unfairly, and I know for a fact that most Israelis believe this as well. I know that you will disagree with me about this, but I really don't care that much whether the criticism is fair or not. What I care about are results, and from what I've seen Israelis have come to feel that they cannot get a fair hearing in the court of public opinion, that no matter what they do they will end up standing accused. The result has been that Israel (and now I'm talking about the government specifically) is increasingly deaf to condemnations of their actions no matter how deserved, and more importantly, they feel increasingly isolated, and therefore vulnerable. I know that it may not make sense to you that a country as militarily strong as Israel is radically insecure about its security, but the truth is that Israelis really do believe that their country faces existential threats. And the more insecure and isolated they feel, the less likely that they will have the confidence to make the concessions necessary for peace.
I'm not telling you that you shouldn't criticize Israel. If you believe that they have done something wrong you should speak out about it. Personally, I feel that I can play a more constructive role by not rushing to lay blame, but by approaching the situation pragmatically, looking for solutions that might actually work, and then trying to get my ideas out there in a form that people will be willing to listen to.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
Pepe, I'm not sure where you get your information, but the flotilla incident has been a huge deal in Israel and has received an enormous amount of press coverage there, virtually all of it sharply critical of the Israeli government (though not for the same reasons as you).
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
i would disagree that israel is overly-criticized ... everyone is always careful not to offend the ever-sensitive israeli ego ... i would say the criticism has been too sugar-coated ultimately resulting in an israeli gov't that essentially does whatever it pleases ... there has been zero consequence for its action on the floatilla, for their on-going seige in gaza, for their continued expansion all over the place ...
you can gripe about what is being written in the press but it still doesn't stop israeli behaviour so, how can you be so defensive about it?
Well, what can I say. We are clearly viewing the situation from radically different vantage points.
To pick up on only one of the things you said, I find your comment about there being "zero consequences for its action on the flotilla" to be extremely telling. To begin with there has been a huge consequence in terms of world opinion, and the incident seems to have the potential to completely rupture Israel's relationship with Turkey, which would be a diplomatic disaster for Israel. But beyond that, there has been no "consequences" because what happened has not been fully established. As yet there has been no investigation of the events on the flotilla, so all we have is a he-said-she-said situation. The fact that you (and seemingly most of the rest of the world) are so quick in your certainty of Israeli wrongdoing, making up your mind about what happened before all the facts are known, illustrates perfectly, I think, why Israelis feel that they are judged unfairly.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
first of all ... the world of public opinion matters not to the israeli gov't ... see all the other incidents mentioned as well as the expansion agreement when joe biden visited ... what are the actual consequences? ... there are no sanctions against israel ... no formal boycotts by countries ... nothing ...
what is troubling is that you expect the international community to wait on a formal investigation that is conducted under the control of israel ... israel refuses to let an independent investigation to be held ... why is that? ... if israel historically was more forthcoming - maybe we wouldn't be so quick to judge ... see white phosphorous ... the lies israel has been caught being told is endless ... forgive us if the initial doctored tapes are hard for us to believe and we trust the stuff coming from the activists who were on the floatilla ..
If your answer is, "Israel must leave, returning its land to the Palestinians"... that is not going to happen... not in the real world. The reality is, Israel is there to stay and are not going to leave and neither are the Palestinians. I take that back... I guess it **could** happen... if you either kill all of the Israelis or if you kill all of the Palestinians.
i just want to say something on the bit i highlighted Cosmo. you say not to talk about Israel leaving but they have to. that HAS to be the first step. i'm in favour of a binational solution and am actually opposed to a two state solution. but that's just me. i'll take the two state solution. before that even has a chance of happening, Israel has to cease all settlement expansion and return to the 67 borders. there is no way a real peace agreement will ever be reached without that happening.
having said that though Cosmo, pretty much the whole of the rest of the world is calling for a two state solution. Hamas has accepted that. the problem is that Israel refuses to abide by international law and cease expansion of settlements. they just keep on doing whatever they want regardless of the consequences. they refuse to acknowledge that the Palestinians have legal rights to a state. Israel has chosen war and occupation. they complain about the rockets that are fired. i'm not sure if you have any clue how ineffective these rockets are compared to what Israel uses. they have the most sophisticated weaponry in the world at its disposal and they use it without mercy. can't you see why the Palestinians use rockets? resistance is what comes with occupation. i don't know you personally, but i do see you fight here for what you believe in Cosmo. if you and your families were continually subjected to what the Palestinians are, i wonder if you would just lay down and not resist? that's how i think of it. what would i do? i hate violence Cosmo. Israels brutal, prolonged occupation would be enough to make the best of us snap.
Israel clearly have the advantage here. it's not war Cosmo. isn't war when two armies fight against each other? we're talking about 1.5 million people, caged in like animals, subjected to all sorts of inhuman treatment. if people really want peace, and i know i do, then we have to start holding Israel responsible for the conflict. any resistance that the Palestinians are showing is just an act. they have no hope. the Palestinians are the ones subject to occupation. they don't have any reason to give up resistance until Israel begins to treat them humanely. Israel as the occupier is completely responsible for these actions.
if you have a chance, please can you try and get a copy of Ali Abunimahs book, One Country. it's one of the best things i have ever read on the conflict and i would I recommend it to anyone who is honestly looking to either know more or to do something about the Palestine-Israel cause.
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Okay... FINALLY, someone has pointed out the mistake I have made in my communications... and I thank T.Angel for pointing this out to me.
Perhaps I need to speak precisely when I say, "Israel is not leaving and is here to stay"... I mean from the REGION... The Middle East. People think I mean the occupied territories.
I think that Israel needs to withdraw from the occupied territories of Gaza, The West Bank and the Golan Heights. YES, I believe they need to end their military occupation of those territories. I have felt this way since the 1980s. And another point, I certainly believe that the occupations of Gaza, The West Bank and the Golan Heights by the nation of Israel must end.
Oh, and I also oppose the Israeli occupation of Gaza, The West Bank and the Golan Heights.
But, Israel is NOT going to vacate the Middle East. So, some sort of NEGOTIATED PEACE settlement between Israel and the Arab states needs to take place. Because the violence has gotten them nowhere for 62 years.
Okay... The REGION, in general terms... Not specifically the Occupied Territories.
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Here... let me sum this up in case anyone else does not understand me and wants to counter my views, point by point...
Cosmo feels:
1. Violence solves nothing. If you want proof... just look at the accomplishments violence has achieved for them in the past 62 years.
2. Israel needs to end its occupation of Gaza, The West Bank and the Golan Heights.
3. Israel ain't going to leave (THE REGION) anytime soon... or anytime prior to the asteroid, that's going to put us all out of our misery, hits. Arab nations have to come to this realization.
4. Israel's attack on an unarmed floatilla was complete and utter bullshit and should have the condemnation of the entire world lashed upon them.
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Thanx.
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But, ...let's say Israel DOES comply and leave those occupied territories and stays in the region... does that mean peace and there won't be any rocket attacks across the border?
Post edited by Cosmo on
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Ok, so your argument is that you should be excused for prejudging the event before the facts are known because you think that Israel has a bad track record. But that's not how things work. You know, innocent until proven guilty? You're free to think whatever you want, but "consequences," whatever they might be, have to wait for actual evidence.
If you go back and reread what I wrote you'll see that I didn't say that the world should wait on an Israeli controlled investigation. I said simply an investigation. As it happens, however, Israel just today announced its plans for an investigative committee. It is to be headed by a former Israeli supreme court justice (the court has a well-documented record of independence, often coming into conflict with ruling governments and the army), and is to include two respected international legal experts, one Canadian, and one British I believe, to ensure that the investigation is transparent and honest.
Why do you assume the tapes Israel has released are doctored? Edited certainly, but that is a far cry from doctored, which carries an implication of falsification.
And on what basis, other than the fact that you agree with their politics, do you trust the "activists"? They are quite clearly not objective sources of information.
When it comes down to it you have jumped to your own conclusions about what happened on that ship, absent any definitive evidence. Justify that however you like, but don't be surprised and angry that (hopefully) responsible world governments aren't as quick to take punitive actions against another country based on nothing more than a pure assumption of guilt.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
As it happens, however, Israel just today announced its plans for an investigative committee. It is to be headed by a former Israeli supreme court justice (the court has a well-documented record of independence, often coming into conflict with ruling governments and the army), and is to include two respected international legal experts, one Canadian, and one British I believe, to ensure that the investigation is transparent and honest.
transparent and honest, right. those two words are not something i would use to describe anything relating to Israel.
regarding David Trimble. interesting comment at the bottom of the article.."Appointing David Trimble to oversee this inquiry is like appointing Judas to oversee an inquiry into the last supper"..
David Trimble will be one of the two foreign observers on the Israeli government investigative committee which will examine Israeli Defence Forces actions against the Gaza flotilla ships.
That is a little like putting the fox in charge of the hen house.
Trimble has a Nobel Prize for helping bring about the Good Friday Agreement in Northern Ireland but his bona fides on Israeli issues are suspect to say the least.
He is known to be close to Dore Gold, a close associate of Benjamin Netanyahu.
Indeed, Trimble recently joined the "Friends of Israel" initiative which was launched in Paris some weeks ago.
He is about as unbiased on Israel as he is on Ulster unionism.
With his Nobel Prize he offers some clever camouflage for the Israeli inquiry into what went on when the troops landed on board a Turkish boat and nine Turks were killed
But he is utterly biased.
Unionists in Northern Ireland overwhelmingly associate with Israel while nationalists associate with the Palestinians.
You will see Israeli flags in many Loyalist neighborhoods, as the sense of a siege mentality, and surrounded by enemies runs deep in both the Israeli and Unionist mindsets.
The fact that there is an Irish dimension to the flotilla, involving another Nobel Prize winner Mairead Maguire and activists who have ties to Northern nationalism, further weakens Trimble's stance as an unbiased observer.
His instinctive sense will be to side with Israeli authorities.
In that respect his detractors will see him playing the role of a useful idiot to an inquiry that seems highly unlikely to find the Israeli forces at fault
Why do you assume the tapes Israel has released are doctored? Edited certainly, but that is a far cry from doctored, which carries an implication of falsification.
why do you assume they are not? i posted this in another thread. thoughts yosi?
here, i'll repost it for you.
see this picture? This is an Israeli propaganda photo and caption that appeared on the website of Israeli newspaper Haaretz.
let's see if you can spot what's wrong with it. no cookies for guessing. it's too easy.
There's a number of things not credible about this:
The Israeli assault took place in darkness. There is bright daylight coming through the window.
Who took the picture? The Israeli commandos supposedly being threatened with stabbing? It's a great picture!
Everyone behind the man with the knife looks quite calm and not as if they are under attack by the Israeli army.
People on the ship were ordered to wear life jackets before the Israeli attack and most were on the video feed. No one is in this picture.
How do they know he's a "left-wing activist"? He doesn't fit my stereotype of a left-wing activist. Did they take the time to interview him while he was supposedly trying to stab them?
Reality check: If this photo even comes from the ship it shows a man carrying a ceremonial dagger, perhaps in a demonstration of bravado in front of cameras and journalists. What it certainly wouldn't do is justify a military assault on the high seas and the murder and wounding of dozens of civilians on a humanitarian aid ship. After all, suppose they had lots of daggers on the ship, what were they going to do, sail to Gaza and "stab" Israel?
And once again you show yourself to be utterly uninterested in anything approaching constructive debate. If all you want is to rant and rave in an echo chamber than please just stop responding to my posts.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
But, ...let's say Israel DOES comply and leave those occupied territories and stays in the region... does that mean peace and there won't be any rocket attacks across the border?
that would be the desired outcome yes.
can i just ask if you are suggesting that Israel has the right to imprison an entire population of people based on the actions of a few? because that's what is happening. the punishment does not fit the crime. never has. never will.
But... let's say Israel DOES comply and leave those occupied territories and stays in the region... does that mean peace and there won't be any rocket attacks across the border?
that would be the desired outcome yes.
can i just ask if you are suggesting that Israel has the right to imprison an entire population of people based on the actions of a few? because that's what is happening. the punishment does not fit the crime. never has. never will.
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My answer... NO, Israel (or any other country) has no right to imprison people on 'suspecion'... which is also why I object to Camp X-Ray at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. If you claim to be a just society... then, arrest them, interrogate them, either charge them with a crime and put them on trial or set them free.
Post edited by Cosmo on
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
And once again you show yourself to be utterly uninterested in anything approaching constructive debate. If all you want is to rant and rave in an echo chamber than please just stop responding to my posts.
i can debate constructively with people yosi. your apologist attitude, smugness, selective posts that you reply to when it suits you, (i see you ignored my post above the one you just replied to), and holier than tho attitude, make me ill.
ignore me all you like. just remember tho, you can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time.
your main focus has always been to apologize and make excuses for Israels occupation. mine has always been for the people than no one gives a shit about who are victims of Israels brutality. especially the children.
and you don't like that. well too bad. i don't give a shit.
the 793,520 children of Gaza (56% of the population) have lived under occupation and siege all of their lives. They are beautiful, resilient, curious and full of potential. They deserve the basics that all children in the world should have. Food, clean water, healthcare, safe places to play and learn. They deserve the tools to deal with their nightmares, and sleep that is not punctuated by bombing. They deserve life, freedom, and hope. CC.
But... let's say Israel DOES comply and leave those occupied territories and stays in the region... does that mean peace and there won't be any rocket attacks across the border?
that would be the desired outcome yes.
can i just ask if you are suggesting that Israel has the right to imprison an entire population of people based on the actions of a few? because that's what is happening. the punishment does not fit the crime. never has. never will.
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My answer... NO, Israel (or any other country) has no right to imprison people on 'suspecion'... which is also why I object to Camp X-Ray at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. If you claim to be a just society... then, arrest them, interrogate them, either charge them with a crime and put them on trial or set them free.
i agree cosmo. whatever happened to using direct, conclusive evidence to get a conviction? if evidence exists (without resorting to torture), give people a fair trial, and if convicted, then sentence them to max security prisons. don't keep people imprisoned for years without charging them or granting them access to any sort of legal counsel. don't lie about things. don't torture them so that they agree to things they have not done. no one has any right to detain someone for years without charges or a fair trial. If there is no evidence, or if they are found innocent, set them free.
somebody has to be untouched by corruption. somebody has to love the truth. right?
i agree cosmo. whatever happened to using direct, conclusive evidence to get a conviction? if evidence exists (without resorting to torture), give people a fair trial, and if convicted, then sentence them to max security prisons. don't keep people imprisoned for years without charging them or granting them access to any sort of legal counsel. don't lie about things. don't torture them so that they agree to things they have not done. no one has any right to detain someone for years without charges or a fair trial. If there is no evidence, or if they are found innocent, set them free.
somebody has to be untouched by corruption. somebody has to love the truth. right?
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Yes, that is correct.
That being said... for those who ARE guilty of lobbing rockets over the border... those asshole need to be brought to justice. Not only do they kill people in the Israeli side of the border... they bring the wrath of the Israeli Air Force on the people of the neighborhoods they launch their attacks from.
Those rocket firing assholes (cowards) are the other side of the 'Both sides' I make references to. Rocket attacks result in air strikes that result in rocket attacks that result in airstrikes that result in rocket attacks... well, you get the picture. Both sides of the violence coin share the responsibility.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
i agree cosmo. whatever happened to using direct, conclusive evidence to get a conviction? if evidence exists (without resorting to torture), give people a fair trial, and if convicted, then sentence them to max security prisons. don't keep people imprisoned for years without charging them or granting them access to any sort of legal counsel. don't lie about things. don't torture them so that they agree to things they have not done. no one has any right to detain someone for years without charges or a fair trial. If there is no evidence, or if they are found innocent, set them free.
somebody has to be untouched by corruption. somebody has to love the truth. right?
...
Yes, that is correct.
That being said... for those who ARE guilty of lobbing rockets over the border... those asshole need to be brought to justice. Not only do they kill people in the Israeli side of the border... they bring the wrath of the Israeli Air Force on the people of the neighborhoods they launch their attacks from.
Those rocket firing assholes (cowards) are the other side of the 'Both sides' I make references to. Rocket attacks result in air strikes that result in rocket attacks that result in airstrikes that result in rocket attacks... well, you get the picture. Both sides of the violence coin share the responsibility.
there is only one occupier. Israel. Israel has turned Gaza into a concentration camp. it's not that difficult for me to understand what drives them to fire rockets into Israel. very limited attacks have been launched against Israel, but the Israeli response has always been deadly. these rockets are ineffective and useless. look i believe any loss of life is sad and i wish it didn't happen Cosmo but i can understand why it does. that's not making excuses or apologizing or defending why it's happening. it's reality.
i've already said so many times that Israel clearly has the advantage here. it's not war Cosmo. war is when two armies fight each other. we're talking about 1.5 million people, caged in like animals, subjected to all sorts of inhuman treatment.
one way you could stop the ineffective rocket fire would be if the US supplied the Palestinians with billions of dollars worth of money and weapons like they do with Israel then maybe they could just target Israeli military targets with F-16 bombers rather than use amateur rockets. fair fight right? :roll: that's the LAST thing i would want.
if people really want peace then we HAVE to start holding Israel responsible for the conflict.
Yes, that is correct.
That being said... for those who ARE guilty of lobbing rockets over the border... those asshole need to be brought to justice. Not only do they kill people in the Israeli side of the border... they bring the wrath of the Israeli Air Force on the people of the neighborhoods they launch their attacks from.
Those rocket firing assholes (cowards) are the other side of the 'Both sides' I make references to. Rocket attacks result in air strikes that result in rocket attacks that result in airstrikes that result in rocket attacks... well, you get the picture. Both sides of the violence coin share the responsibility.
why are you so worried about those rocket attacks?
during Israel's latest assault on Gaza, which prompted an all war for a few days....13 Israeli's were killed, 10 of whom militants. during that time 1300 Palestinians were killed, the vast majority civilian.
That's right. In all out conflict big bad Hamas killed all of 3 innocent people, Israel killed 1300. But sure Cosmo, lets focus on the rocket attacks.
Don't get me wrong, 3 is too many, but considering they are retaliatory to begin with it makes much more sense to focus on what's causing them anyway, which is Israel.
why are you so worried about those rocket attacks?
during Israel's latest assault on Gaza, which prompted an all war for a few days....13 Israeli's were killed, 10 of whom militants. during that time 1300 Palestinians were killed, the vast majority civilian.
That's right. In all out conflict big bad Hamas killed all of 3 innocent people, Israel killed 1300. But sure Cosmo, lets focus on the rocket attacks.
Don't get me wrong, 3 is too many, but considering they are retaliatory to begin with it makes much more sense to focus on what's causing them anyway, which is Israel.
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So, wait... I'm against rocket attacks... you are agruing with me... does that mean you are FOR rocket attacks?
I guess I must be extemely precice in choosing my words here... it seems as if every one is a potential landmine. so... hmmmm... okay, how do I put this...
...
I am against violence. Violence perpetrated by either side, whether it kills 1 or 1,000. Body count is something that people typically, but not always, use as justification for use of force or to rationalize vengence.
It is the TACTIC of violence I am sick of. Tactics of violence are used by both sides in this matter. Are people understanding this? The tactic of retaliating violent aggression with violence... that is the cycle that needs to be broken. It does not work.. it hasn't worked for 62 years and it's not going to work for the next 27 milleniums.
So, am I against rocket attacks (or suicide bombers on city busses)? Damn straight, fuckin' aye.
Am i against air strikes (and occupation of other people's land)? Fuck yeah, I am.
Am I the only one here that seems to acknowledge that violence is violence... killing is killing and that both sides have blood on their hands? Apparently so. I admit... i am not taking sides as along as both sides use killing as their tactic.
I will support the bigger of the two that has the heart to say, 'I am not going to meet your violent attacks on me with more violence, anymore... I have fire my last shot'. That is the side I will choose.
...
So... FIRE AWAY!!! I am certain that something said is somehow going to somehow make me an Israel Apologist... or a Zionist... or wishes the Death of Palestine.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
A) Triumphant, I love it when the pot calls the kettle black. A concentration camp?! Are you serious!! If Israel ever starts murdering Palestinians on an industrial scale, tattooing numbers into their arms, using them as slave labor until they're too weak to work any longer, gassing them to death, and burning their corpses, THEN we can bring the Holocaust into this.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
Cosmo, I believe I've already said it, but I agree with you entirely. As for getting many others here to really look honestly at the violence of BOTH sides, good luck. I've found that the majority here are completely unwilling to take the Palestinians off the pedestal they've put them on, and actually hold them responsible for their own actions.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
A) Triumphant, I love it when the pot calls the kettle black. A concentration camp?! Are you serious!! If Israel ever starts tattooing numbers into their arms THEN we can bring the holocaust into this
Palestinians will now be evicted from land occupied illegally by Israel. Israel "effectively control's the Palestinian population register' in the West Bank". what's next? tattooing numbers on the palestinians to keep track of them?
Israeli human rights groups say that Palestinians and any foreigners living in the West Bank could be deemed 'infiltrators' and deported within 72 hours or jailed for seven years if they are found without the correct permit under the new orders. Photograph: Musa Al-Shaer/AFP/Getty Images
Israel's leading human rights groups are trying to stop two new Israeli military orders which will make any resident of the occupied West Bank who does not have an Israeli-issued permit liable for deportation or jail.
The new Order Regarding Prevention of Infiltration and Order Regarding Security Provisions, which comes into force on Tuesday have "severe ramifications," the rights groups say. Palestinians, and any foreigners living in the West Bank, could be labelled infiltrators and deported within 72 hours or jailed for seven years if they are found without the correct permit. It does not define what Israel considers a valid permit.
"The orders … are worded so broadly such as theoretically allowing the military to empty the West Bank of almost all its Palestinian inhabitants," said the 10 rights groups, which include Ha-Moked, B'Tselem, the Association for Civil Rights in Israel, and Rabbis for Human Rights. Until now the vast majority of Palestinians in the West Bank have not been required to hold a permit just to be present in their homes, the groups say.
"The military will be able to prosecute and deport any Palestinian defined as an infiltrator in stark contradiction to the Geneva conventions," they said. The law broadens the definition of an "infiltrator" and could allow Israel to transfer some Palestinians from the West Bank to Gaza, or to deport foreign passport holders married to West Bank Palestinians, or to deport Israelis or foreigners living in the West Bank. The groups said tens of thousands of Palestinians were in those categories.
Israel effectively controls the Palestinian population register and since 2000, apart from once in 2007, the Israeli authorities have frozen applications for renewal of visitor permits for foreign nationals, or applications to grant permanent status in the occupied territories. As a result, many Palestinians live in the West Bank without formal status and are now vulnerable under the new orders. The human rights groups wrote to the Israeli defence minister, Ehud Barak, today asking him to delay or revoke the orders, which they said were "unlawful and allow extreme and arbitrary injury to a vast number of people".
The Israeli military said the purpose of the orders was "the extradition of those residing illegally in Judea and Samaria," an Israeli term for the West Bank. The orders had been "corrected" in order to "assure judicial oversight of the extradition process," it said.
However, Saeb Erekat, the chief Palestinian negotiator, said the orders would make it easy for Israel to imprison or expel Palestinians from the West Bank. "These military orders belong in an apartheid state," he said. "They are an assault on ordinary Palestinians and an affront to the most fundamental principles of human rights. Israel's endgame is not peace. It is the colonisation of the West Bank."
A concentration camp?! Are you serious!! If Israel ever starts murdering Palestinians on an industrial scale, tattooing numbers into their arms, using them as slave labor until they're too weak to work any longer, gassing them to death, and burning their corpses, THEN we can bring the Holocaust into this.
Concentration camps are not just in relation to the Holocaust. You are bringing it into the discussion, no one else.
Concentration camps existed before and, whilst the Nazis made use of them, they were not the only ones.
"concentration camp (plural concentration camps)
1. A camp where large numbers of persons—such as political prisoners, prisoners of war, refugees—are detained for the purpose of concentrating them in one place.
2. A camp or premises in which persons considered to be undesirable by those who control it are hidden away, mistreated, and even killed.
3. A situation wherein crowding and extremely harsh conditions take place."
Seriously dude? Unless you are significantly mentally impaired you don't start talking about concentration camps and NOT expect people to understand that you're talking about the Holocaust. That would be like me likening someone to Hitler, and then saying that I wasn't talking about that Hitler, I was talking about Hitler McHitlerstein, the barber at the end of the street.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
Anyways, getting back to the more productive conversation we had going here earlier, before certain people felt the need to start personally insulting those they disagree with, it seems to me that simply looking at Gaza compared to the West Bank we have two models of how the Palestinians can go. On the one hand there is Abbas and Fayyad, capable technocrats who have embraced nonviolence and who are actually building something for their people, and tangibly improving their lives. On the other hand we have Hamas, a terrorist organization sporting a racist charter, which refuses to recognize Israel, refuses to forswear violence, and refuses to abide by previous treaty agreements. Whatever you think about Israel and its actions, I don't get why so many of you seem perfectly happy to be fellow travelers and apologists for Hamas, an organization that represents the exact opposite of what I take to be the liberal and secular politics of most everyone on this board. It seems to me that the sooner the West Bank model takes root in Gaza, the better it will be for everyone.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
Seriously dude? Unless you are significantly mentally impaired you don't start talking about concentration camps and NOT expect people to understand that you're talking about the Holocaust. That would be like me likening someone to Hitler, and then saying that I wasn't talking about that Hitler, I was talking about Hitler McHitlerstein, the barber at the end of the street.
Sorry Yosi, the world does not automatically revolve around Israel and the jews. There are many countries and regimes that have used/are using concentration camps. You might remember Cambodia and the Khmer Rouge, or maybe Chili during Pinochet's regime or Argentina whilst were are in South America. What about the camps during the Bosnian war? Not to mention North Korea or China. The list goes on..... Wake up to the rest of the world.
And by the way, I am neither a dude or significantly mentally impaired.
Also, you will find that Abbas and Fayyad are not particularly popular in Palestine (West Bank) and the relations between the two are very tense (they are political rivals). Whilst they try to put out a more or less united front, there are major disagreements between the two and things are starting to split at the seams.
Comments
I don't see why you think the actions of the palestinians are 'unthinkingly' termed resistance. This is a perfectly fitting word. And, again referencing the french resistance (whence this term was coined), 'resistance' is not limited to the occupied country. There have been cross border actions during that time too. The maquis were guerrillas, not dis-similar to the palestinian fighters who use guerrilla warfare tactics.
What is actually gained from their actions? They fight for their family, their livelihood, their freedom and right to self-determination (a term you love to use). They have a few rockets and stones fighting mighty Israeli army backed by the 'strongest' nation. Let's turn the tables... what is/has been gained from Israeli actions, besides terrorizing, antagonizing (mild word), humiliating and oppressing the Palestinians? Hmmmmm..... food for thought, eh? Well, maybe food for thought for most. Maybe you think the palestinians should just bend over and submit. Don't do anything. Just let Israel do what it wants, when it wants.
I do not lay THE fault with the Palestinians. I lay some fault with them. There is more than enough to go around. I'm not going to get into a discussion of what can and cannot legitimately be called resistance because that is really beside the point. What I'm interested in is practical reality, and the reality as I see it is that violence can be useful in certain situations and harmful in others. What I'm arguing is that is this situation Palestinian violence (and Israeli violence) are obstacles to ending the occupation and bringing peace (this seems almost too obvious to have to put in writing).
When you say that they are "fight[ing] for their family, their livelihood, their freedom and right to self-determination" you seem to be saying, if I may make an inference, that they are fighting so as to maintain their dignity. I can understand that, but the fact remains that when it comes to ACTUALLY ENDING THE OCCUPATION their actions are not only unproductive, but counterproductive.
I'm not saying they should submit, I'm saying they should choose a more productive way of resisting. Just look at the West Bank today. Clearly, the occupation persists, but Abbas and Fayyad seem to be succeeding in building the functional institutions that will be able to serve a future state. With American assistance, which has gone very much unheralded, they have trained a modern, capable, and by all accounts honest and accountable security force, which has now taken over from the IDF the daily security of the major West Bank towns and cities. In response to the Palestinians taking control of local security, and proving that they are up to the task, Israel has eased the restrictions imposed on Palestinians, reducing the number of roadblocks in the West Bank from (I believe 48) to 12 today.
Now, in the grand scheme of things this is clearly only a very minor improvement. But my point is that one wouldn't say that the Palestinians in the West Bank have submitted to the occupation. Rather I'd say that they have productively shifted their energies from pointlessly and violently lashing out at Israel (thereby confirming Israelis worst fears that the Palestinians cannot be trusted and mean them only harm) to productively building an embryonic state. The leadership in the West Bank has taken responsibility for what happens on its watch, seems to be doing its best to rein in violence (and seems to be successful in doing so), and has begun the long process of building up their future state. These are tangible accomplishments in which Palestinians can and should take pride, and Israel has responded to these developments in a positive way (though I think Israel could and should be doing more).
At the end of the day I really do want what is best for the Palestinians, because Israel and Palestine are joined at the hip, and what is good for one is good for the other. I'm arguing for a step back from the brink and a re-evaluation of what is pragmatically gained from violence. Shooting rockets at Israel may give people a sense of dignity, a feeling that they are not insignificant and can strike back at oppression. But it doesn't make their families safer. It puts them even more in harms way. It doesn't improve their livelihoods. It makes economic improvement even more remote. It certainly isn't bringing them freedom, or a state of their own. All of these things are being accomplished, however, in the West Bank, where the economy is better, the people are safer, and the institutions of a state are actually taking shape, and all of this is happening because the leadership there has made the simple realization that a lot more can be achieved by not resorting to violence.
we are circling tho ... sure, suicide bombings and "rocket" attacks will not help the palestinian cause but as each day goes by - there is movement to expand even further ...
if you truly want the best of palestinians - then you should join the voices that decry the violent acts committed by the state of israel ... you must voice your objection to their propaganda machine that has fooled many israelis into believing things that are most definitely not true ...
the PR/propaganda machine was shown for all the world to see in this latest incident with the floatilla ... their blatant lies have been exposed ... where are the voices of israelis who believe in human rights and truth? ...
i, too would like nothing more than two peoples to live in harmony side by side ... but that cannot happen until israel accepts responsibility for their actions and are willing to treat palestinians the way they wish to be treated ...
there are many israeli's upset about the actions of their country but it's the same as in my country, they just don't get any news coverage. there were protests in israel over the flotilla attack but it wasn't really shown in the israeli media
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
From what I've seen, I believe that Israel is all too often criticized unfairly, and I know for a fact that most Israelis believe this as well. I know that you will disagree with me about this, but I really don't care that much whether the criticism is fair or not. What I care about are results, and from what I've seen Israelis have come to feel that they cannot get a fair hearing in the court of public opinion, that no matter what they do they will end up standing accused. The result has been that Israel (and now I'm talking about the government specifically) is increasingly deaf to condemnations of their actions no matter how deserved, and more importantly, they feel increasingly isolated, and therefore vulnerable. I know that it may not make sense to you that a country as militarily strong as Israel is radically insecure about its security, but the truth is that Israelis really do believe that their country faces existential threats. And the more insecure and isolated they feel, the less likely that they will have the confidence to make the concessions necessary for peace.
I'm not telling you that you shouldn't criticize Israel. If you believe that they have done something wrong you should speak out about it. Personally, I feel that I can play a more constructive role by not rushing to lay blame, but by approaching the situation pragmatically, looking for solutions that might actually work, and then trying to get my ideas out there in a form that people will be willing to listen to.
you can gripe about what is being written in the press but it still doesn't stop israeli behaviour so, how can you be so defensive about it?
To pick up on only one of the things you said, I find your comment about there being "zero consequences for its action on the flotilla" to be extremely telling. To begin with there has been a huge consequence in terms of world opinion, and the incident seems to have the potential to completely rupture Israel's relationship with Turkey, which would be a diplomatic disaster for Israel. But beyond that, there has been no "consequences" because what happened has not been fully established. As yet there has been no investigation of the events on the flotilla, so all we have is a he-said-she-said situation. The fact that you (and seemingly most of the rest of the world) are so quick in your certainty of Israeli wrongdoing, making up your mind about what happened before all the facts are known, illustrates perfectly, I think, why Israelis feel that they are judged unfairly.
what is troubling is that you expect the international community to wait on a formal investigation that is conducted under the control of israel ... israel refuses to let an independent investigation to be held ... why is that? ... if israel historically was more forthcoming - maybe we wouldn't be so quick to judge ... see white phosphorous ... the lies israel has been caught being told is endless ... forgive us if the initial doctored tapes are hard for us to believe and we trust the stuff coming from the activists who were on the floatilla ..
Okay... FINALLY, someone has pointed out the mistake I have made in my communications... and I thank T.Angel for pointing this out to me.
Perhaps I need to speak precisely when I say, "Israel is not leaving and is here to stay"... I mean from the REGION... The Middle East. People think I mean the occupied territories.
I think that Israel needs to withdraw from the occupied territories of Gaza, The West Bank and the Golan Heights. YES, I believe they need to end their military occupation of those territories. I have felt this way since the 1980s. And another point, I certainly believe that the occupations of Gaza, The West Bank and the Golan Heights by the nation of Israel must end.
Oh, and I also oppose the Israeli occupation of Gaza, The West Bank and the Golan Heights.
But, Israel is NOT going to vacate the Middle East. So, some sort of NEGOTIATED PEACE settlement between Israel and the Arab states needs to take place. Because the violence has gotten them nowhere for 62 years.
Okay... The REGION, in general terms... Not specifically the Occupied Territories.
...
Here... let me sum this up in case anyone else does not understand me and wants to counter my views, point by point...
Cosmo feels:
1. Violence solves nothing. If you want proof... just look at the accomplishments violence has achieved for them in the past 62 years.
2. Israel needs to end its occupation of Gaza, The West Bank and the Golan Heights.
3. Israel ain't going to leave (THE REGION) anytime soon... or anytime prior to the asteroid, that's going to put us all out of our misery, hits. Arab nations have to come to this realization.
4. Israel's attack on an unarmed floatilla was complete and utter bullshit and should have the condemnation of the entire world lashed upon them.
...
Thanx.
...
But, ...let's say Israel DOES comply and leave those occupied territories and stays in the region... does that mean peace and there won't be any rocket attacks across the border?
Hail, Hail!!!
If you go back and reread what I wrote you'll see that I didn't say that the world should wait on an Israeli controlled investigation. I said simply an investigation. As it happens, however, Israel just today announced its plans for an investigative committee. It is to be headed by a former Israeli supreme court justice (the court has a well-documented record of independence, often coming into conflict with ruling governments and the army), and is to include two respected international legal experts, one Canadian, and one British I believe, to ensure that the investigation is transparent and honest.
Why do you assume the tapes Israel has released are doctored? Edited certainly, but that is a far cry from doctored, which carries an implication of falsification.
And on what basis, other than the fact that you agree with their politics, do you trust the "activists"? They are quite clearly not objective sources of information.
When it comes down to it you have jumped to your own conclusions about what happened on that ship, absent any definitive evidence. Justify that however you like, but don't be surprised and angry that (hopefully) responsible world governments aren't as quick to take punitive actions against another country based on nothing more than a pure assumption of guilt.
regarding David Trimble. interesting comment at the bottom of the article.."Appointing David Trimble to oversee this inquiry is like appointing Judas to oversee an inquiry into the last supper"..
David Trimble will be one of the two foreign observers on the Israeli government investigative committee which will examine Israeli Defence Forces actions against the Gaza flotilla ships.
That is a little like putting the fox in charge of the hen house.
Trimble has a Nobel Prize for helping bring about the Good Friday Agreement in Northern Ireland but his bona fides on Israeli issues are suspect to say the least.
He is known to be close to Dore Gold, a close associate of Benjamin Netanyahu.
Indeed, Trimble recently joined the "Friends of Israel" initiative which was launched in Paris some weeks ago.
He is about as unbiased on Israel as he is on Ulster unionism.
With his Nobel Prize he offers some clever camouflage for the Israeli inquiry into what went on when the troops landed on board a Turkish boat and nine Turks were killed
But he is utterly biased.
Unionists in Northern Ireland overwhelmingly associate with Israel while nationalists associate with the Palestinians.
You will see Israeli flags in many Loyalist neighborhoods, as the sense of a siege mentality, and surrounded by enemies runs deep in both the Israeli and Unionist mindsets.
The fact that there is an Irish dimension to the flotilla, involving another Nobel Prize winner Mairead Maguire and activists who have ties to Northern nationalism, further weakens Trimble's stance as an unbiased observer.
His instinctive sense will be to side with Israeli authorities.
In that respect his detractors will see him playing the role of a useful idiot to an inquiry that seems highly unlikely to find the Israeli forces at fault
why do you assume they are not? i posted this in another thread. thoughts yosi?
here, i'll repost it for you.
see this picture? This is an Israeli propaganda photo and caption that appeared on the website of Israeli newspaper Haaretz.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-d ... s-1.293089
let's see if you can spot what's wrong with it. no cookies for guessing. it's too easy.
There's a number of things not credible about this:
The Israeli assault took place in darkness. There is bright daylight coming through the window.
Who took the picture? The Israeli commandos supposedly being threatened with stabbing? It's a great picture!
Everyone behind the man with the knife looks quite calm and not as if they are under attack by the Israeli army.
People on the ship were ordered to wear life jackets before the Israeli attack and most were on the video feed. No one is in this picture.
How do they know he's a "left-wing activist"? He doesn't fit my stereotype of a left-wing activist. Did they take the time to interview him while he was supposedly trying to stab them?
Reality check: If this photo even comes from the ship it shows a man carrying a ceremonial dagger, perhaps in a demonstration of bravado in front of cameras and journalists. What it certainly wouldn't do is justify a military assault on the high seas and the murder and wounding of dozens of civilians on a humanitarian aid ship. After all, suppose they had lots of daggers on the ship, what were they going to do, sail to Gaza and "stab" Israel?
what a joke.
the rest of your post is just absolute garbage. once again you attempt to portray Israel as the victim.
can i just ask if you are suggesting that Israel has the right to imprison an entire population of people based on the actions of a few? because that's what is happening. the punishment does not fit the crime. never has. never will.
My answer... NO, Israel (or any other country) has no right to imprison people on 'suspecion'... which is also why I object to Camp X-Ray at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. If you claim to be a just society... then, arrest them, interrogate them, either charge them with a crime and put them on trial or set them free.
Hail, Hail!!!
ignore me all you like. just remember tho, you can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time.
your main focus has always been to apologize and make excuses for Israels occupation. mine has always been for the people than no one gives a shit about who are victims of Israels brutality. especially the children.
and you don't like that. well too bad. i don't give a shit.
the 793,520 children of Gaza (56% of the population) have lived under occupation and siege all of their lives. They are beautiful, resilient, curious and full of potential. They deserve the basics that all children in the world should have. Food, clean water, healthcare, safe places to play and learn. They deserve the tools to deal with their nightmares, and sleep that is not punctuated by bombing. They deserve life, freedom, and hope. CC.
somebody has to be untouched by corruption. somebody has to love the truth. right?
Yes, that is correct.
That being said... for those who ARE guilty of lobbing rockets over the border... those asshole need to be brought to justice. Not only do they kill people in the Israeli side of the border... they bring the wrath of the Israeli Air Force on the people of the neighborhoods they launch their attacks from.
Those rocket firing assholes (cowards) are the other side of the 'Both sides' I make references to. Rocket attacks result in air strikes that result in rocket attacks that result in airstrikes that result in rocket attacks... well, you get the picture. Both sides of the violence coin share the responsibility.
Hail, Hail!!!
i've already said so many times that Israel clearly has the advantage here. it's not war Cosmo. war is when two armies fight each other. we're talking about 1.5 million people, caged in like animals, subjected to all sorts of inhuman treatment.
one way you could stop the ineffective rocket fire would be if the US supplied the Palestinians with billions of dollars worth of money and weapons like they do with Israel then maybe they could just target Israeli military targets with F-16 bombers rather than use amateur rockets. fair fight right? :roll: that's the LAST thing i would want.
if people really want peace then we HAVE to start holding Israel responsible for the conflict.
why are you so worried about those rocket attacks?
during Israel's latest assault on Gaza, which prompted an all war for a few days....13 Israeli's were killed, 10 of whom militants. during that time 1300 Palestinians were killed, the vast majority civilian.
That's right. In all out conflict big bad Hamas killed all of 3 innocent people, Israel killed 1300. But sure Cosmo, lets focus on the rocket attacks.
Don't get me wrong, 3 is too many, but considering they are retaliatory to begin with it makes much more sense to focus on what's causing them anyway, which is Israel.
So, wait... I'm against rocket attacks... you are agruing with me... does that mean you are FOR rocket attacks?
I guess I must be extemely precice in choosing my words here... it seems as if every one is a potential landmine. so... hmmmm... okay, how do I put this...
...
I am against violence. Violence perpetrated by either side, whether it kills 1 or 1,000. Body count is something that people typically, but not always, use as justification for use of force or to rationalize vengence.
It is the TACTIC of violence I am sick of. Tactics of violence are used by both sides in this matter. Are people understanding this? The tactic of retaliating violent aggression with violence... that is the cycle that needs to be broken. It does not work.. it hasn't worked for 62 years and it's not going to work for the next 27 milleniums.
So, am I against rocket attacks (or suicide bombers on city busses)? Damn straight, fuckin' aye.
Am i against air strikes (and occupation of other people's land)? Fuck yeah, I am.
Am I the only one here that seems to acknowledge that violence is violence... killing is killing and that both sides have blood on their hands? Apparently so. I admit... i am not taking sides as along as both sides use killing as their tactic.
I will support the bigger of the two that has the heart to say, 'I am not going to meet your violent attacks on me with more violence, anymore... I have fire my last shot'. That is the side I will choose.
...
So... FIRE AWAY!!! I am certain that something said is somehow going to somehow make me an Israel Apologist... or a Zionist... or wishes the Death of Palestine.
Hail, Hail!!!
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/ap ... ups-attack
Apartheid Palestine
Israeli human rights groups say that Palestinians and any foreigners living in the West Bank could be deemed 'infiltrators' and deported within 72 hours or jailed for seven years if they are found without the correct permit under the new orders. Photograph: Musa Al-Shaer/AFP/Getty Images
Israel's leading human rights groups are trying to stop two new Israeli military orders which will make any resident of the occupied West Bank who does not have an Israeli-issued permit liable for deportation or jail.
The new Order Regarding Prevention of Infiltration and Order Regarding Security Provisions, which comes into force on Tuesday have "severe ramifications," the rights groups say. Palestinians, and any foreigners living in the West Bank, could be labelled infiltrators and deported within 72 hours or jailed for seven years if they are found without the correct permit. It does not define what Israel considers a valid permit.
"The orders … are worded so broadly such as theoretically allowing the military to empty the West Bank of almost all its Palestinian inhabitants," said the 10 rights groups, which include Ha-Moked, B'Tselem, the Association for Civil Rights in Israel, and Rabbis for Human Rights. Until now the vast majority of Palestinians in the West Bank have not been required to hold a permit just to be present in their homes, the groups say.
"The military will be able to prosecute and deport any Palestinian defined as an infiltrator in stark contradiction to the Geneva conventions," they said. The law broadens the definition of an "infiltrator" and could allow Israel to transfer some Palestinians from the West Bank to Gaza, or to deport foreign passport holders married to West Bank Palestinians, or to deport Israelis or foreigners living in the West Bank. The groups said tens of thousands of Palestinians were in those categories.
Israel effectively controls the Palestinian population register and since 2000, apart from once in 2007, the Israeli authorities have frozen applications for renewal of visitor permits for foreign nationals, or applications to grant permanent status in the occupied territories. As a result, many Palestinians live in the West Bank without formal status and are now vulnerable under the new orders. The human rights groups wrote to the Israeli defence minister, Ehud Barak, today asking him to delay or revoke the orders, which they said were "unlawful and allow extreme and arbitrary injury to a vast number of people".
The Israeli military said the purpose of the orders was "the extradition of those residing illegally in Judea and Samaria," an Israeli term for the West Bank. The orders had been "corrected" in order to "assure judicial oversight of the extradition process," it said.
However, Saeb Erekat, the chief Palestinian negotiator, said the orders would make it easy for Israel to imprison or expel Palestinians from the West Bank. "These military orders belong in an apartheid state," he said. "They are an assault on ordinary Palestinians and an affront to the most fundamental principles of human rights. Israel's endgame is not peace. It is the colonisation of the West Bank."
Concentration camps are not just in relation to the Holocaust. You are bringing it into the discussion, no one else.
Concentration camps existed before and, whilst the Nazis made use of them, they were not the only ones.
"concentration camp (plural concentration camps)
1. A camp where large numbers of persons—such as political prisoners, prisoners of war, refugees—are detained for the purpose of concentrating them in one place.
2. A camp or premises in which persons considered to be undesirable by those who control it are hidden away, mistreated, and even killed.
3. A situation wherein crowding and extremely harsh conditions take place."
Sounds like Gaza to me.
Sorry Yosi, the world does not automatically revolve around Israel and the jews. There are many countries and regimes that have used/are using concentration camps. You might remember Cambodia and the Khmer Rouge, or maybe Chili during Pinochet's regime or Argentina whilst were are in South America. What about the camps during the Bosnian war? Not to mention North Korea or China. The list goes on..... Wake up to the rest of the world.
And by the way, I am neither a dude or significantly mentally impaired.
Also, you will find that Abbas and Fayyad are not particularly popular in Palestine (West Bank) and the relations between the two are very tense (they are political rivals). Whilst they try to put out a more or less united front, there are major disagreements between the two and things are starting to split at the seams.