U.S. to aid $400 million to Palastine..

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  • fuck
    fuck Posts: 4,069
    Cosmo wrote:
    ...
    Hey... I'm just saying...
    I don't think Israel is innocent in this thing... I think they are the one that holds most of the responsibility. But, i don't think the Palenstinians are faultless, either.
    such an easy statement to make. people think it makes them more "moderate" if they criticize both sides and that by being "moderate" they are "unbiased" and thus have a clear judgment on the situation. this does not apply to reality however. anyone who does a cursory studying of the history of this conflict will understand that not only does Israel hold most of the reponsibility, they hold the power to end this conflict by abiding my international law. this whole "Palestinians are not faultless" thing is pointless in comparison.
    Both sides need to come to a realization that the other one is here to stay. Based with that fact, maybe they can see each other as humans and work out a deal to live together.
    there is a growing movement for a binational solution. many palestinians accept this idea, one-state for two people. Israelis reject it because it goes against the notion of a "jewish state" (a racist, selfish idea that should be rejected by everyone in the world but for some reason it's accepted. when white people wanted the same thing in south africa it was eventually condemned but we seem to find it perfectly fine that Israelis stole a land from a people and do not want to give them equal status).
    But, since they don't... and continually send their people out to die in a perpetual cycle of payback killing... they must not place much value in human life... or they both think they are going to be the ones who get the last shot in and win the game.
    again, your ignorance on this issue shows. i may sound like a dick by the way i'm writing but whatever, the point is that this isn't as simple as "both sides send their people to die in a cycle of payback"... Israelis value life, just not Palestinian life. actually, not even American life, or the life of any other nation's citizens which has been shown by their history of attacking American citizens (just recently on the flotilla, also you should look up the sinking of the uss liberty), and even the zionist terrorist organizations before the founding of the state - they bombed the king david hotel in jerusalem killing a number of foreigners (mostly british nationals if i remember correctly)...
    Like I said... i think the people who believe airstrikes will stop the suicide bombing are as much asshole that think suicide bombings will stop the airstrikes. To those people... life is nothing to them because it is so easy for them to believe in killing.
    it's so easy for all of us to criticize, but why are we so quiet and complicit with Israel's violation of international law and persecution of millions of people?
  • Cosmo
    Cosmo Posts: 12,225
    _outlaw wrote:
    Blah-blah-blah...
    ...
    Look... if you just want to argue for arguements's sake... count me out.
    And I really detest your method of taking one line or paragraph and taking it completely out of context. State your ideas, points and opinions in one, overall idea instead of nitpicking one sentence, one comment or one example.
    If you have an overall disagreement with my opinion that both parties involved with the Israeli/Palestinian conflict hold responsibility fro prolonging this mess... then, state it out in ONE organized thought. Otherwise, put me on your ignore list because I'm done trying to debate you if all you have is rebuttals of singled out comments and relying on the moronic crutch of calling me ignorant.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • TriumphantAngel
    TriumphantAngel Posts: 1,760
    this is not directed at anyone in particular, it's just something i've noticed many times when having these discussions.

    so often, people will say things like, ''yes i know Israel is the aggressor and what they are doing is wrong and disgusting", even Yosi, Israel's greatest apologist on the board, says "that the IDF is using ridiculously harsh measures" against the Palestinians. ok so we agree on that. then in the next breath, people want to spend so much time and effort 'talking about ''but they are both at fault". i obviously strongly disagree with the 'both at fault'' talk as there is only one country occupying another.

    so i'm left wondering why all these people say how they can see that what Israel is doing is wrong, and they will fight and bicker about the "both at fault", and yet they won't put as much effort into speaking out on behalf of the Palestinians, and demand that the international community stop simply condemning Israel's brutal and illegal blockade of Gaza, and start doing something to end it.

    that's pretty sad isn't it. and this might sound harsh but i dont care, it's how i feel. the Palestinians suffering continues while all this back and forth goes on. 1.5 million ordinary Palestinians are subject to unimaginable horrors every single day. so anyone who "pretends'' to be interested by debating in these threads, and then turns a blind eye to what is happening, is just fooling themselves and has blood on their hands too.
  • fuck
    fuck Posts: 4,069
    Cosmo wrote:
    _outlaw wrote:
    Blah-blah-blah...
    ...
    Look... if you just want to argue for arguements's sake... count me out.
    And I really detest your method of taking one line or paragraph and taking it completely out of context. State your ideas, points and opinions in one, overall idea instead of nitpicking one sentence, one comment or one example.
    If you have an overall disagreement with my opinion that both parties involved with the Israeli/Palestinian conflict hold responsibility fro prolonging this mess... then, state it out in ONE organized thought. Otherwise, put me on your ignore list because I'm done trying to debate you if all you have is rebuttals of singled out comments and relying on the moronic crutch of calling me ignorant.
    argue for argument's sake? what the hell are you talking about, all of my points are valid. if you don't want to respond because you can't then that's a separate issue.

    and i have not taken anything out of context, your points are the same, i just split them up so i can respond to each individual point. this is a very weak attack on my style of argument, which i guess i don't blame you for since it's the best way for you to opt out of the discussion, you were clearly falling behind. if you would like me to clarify anything then you should feel free to ask...
  • Commy
    Commy Posts: 4,984
    TriumphantAngel wrote:
    this is not directed at anyone in particular, it's just something i've noticed many times when having these discussions.

    so often, people will say things like, ''yes i know Israel is the aggressor and what they are doing is wrong and disgusting", even Yosi, Israel's greatest apologist on the board, says "that the IDF is using ridiculously harsh measures" against the Palestinians. ok so we agree on that. then in the next breath, people want to spend so much time and effort 'talking about ''but they are both at fault". i obviously strongly disagree with the 'both at fault'' talk as there is only one country occupying another.

    so i'm left wondering why all these people say how they can see that what Israel is doing is wrong, and they will fight and bicker about the "both at fault", and yet they won't put as much effort into speaking out on behalf of the Palestinians, and demand that the international community stop simply condemning Israel's brutal and illegal blockade of Gaza, and start doing something to end it.

    that's pretty sad isn't it. and this might sound harsh but i dont care, it's how i feel. the Palestinians suffering continues while all this back and forth goes on. 1.5 million ordinary Palestinians are subject to unimaginable horrors every single day. so anyone who "pretends'' to be interested by debating in these threads, and then turns a blind eye to what is happening, is just fooling themselves and has blood on their hands too.

    absolutely. And you would think after all the back and forth on this board that most people here would at least have a better understanding of the situation.
  • badbrains
    badbrains Posts: 10,255
    I think a lot of people are affraid of being labeled an anti-Semite. But if they know what the word really means, then I dnt think theyd be as affraid. It's the most mis-used word in history. I just can't understand after all the debate on this topic, people still seem to be lost when it comes to the facts. In this day and age, with all the access to news outlets everywhere, they're still blind and confused. Read BOTH sides and hopefully your brain isn't fully programmed so that you can filter the bullshit out and come to your own conclusion. It doesn't matter if you agree with anyone, just know both sides so you dnt sound lame when you speak. I'm talking about everyone, not anybody in particular. The truths out there, you just got to want it to find it...
  • Cosmo
    Cosmo Posts: 12,225
    TriumphantAngel wrote:
    this is not directed at anyone in particular, it's just something i've noticed many times when having these discussions.

    so often, people will say things like, ''yes i know Israel is the aggressor and what they are doing is wrong and disgusting", even Yosi, Israel's greatest apologist on the board, says "that the IDF is using ridiculously harsh measures" against the Palestinians. ok so we agree on that. then in the next breath, people want to spend so much time and effort 'talking about ''but they are both at fault". i obviously strongly disagree with the 'both at fault'' talk as there is only one country occupying another.

    so i'm left wondering why all these people say how they can see that what Israel is doing is wrong, and they will fight and bicker about the "both at fault", and yet they won't put as much effort into speaking out on behalf of the Palestinians, and demand that the international community stop simply condemning Israel's brutal and illegal blockade of Gaza, and start doing something to end it.

    that's pretty sad isn't it. and this might sound harsh but i dont care, it's how i feel. the Palestinians suffering continues while all this back and forth goes on. 1.5 million ordinary Palestinians are subject to unimaginable horrors every single day. so anyone who "pretends'' to be interested by debating in these threads, and then turns a blind eye to what is happening, is just fooling themselves and has blood on their hands too.
    ...
    Okay.. I understand your point. I'm not talking about the current naval blockade (which I believe Israel should lift... if there is someone that can GUARANTEE that there are no weapons or weapons making materials on board). I am talking about the entire conflict as a whole.
    The question is... what is the solution to this conflict... not the blockade... but the ongoing conflict?
    If your answer is, "Israel must leave, returning its land to the Palestinians"... that is not going to happen... not in the real world. The reality is, Israel is there to stay and are not going to leave and neither are the Palestinians. I take that back... I guess it **could** happen... if you either kill all of the Israelis or if you kill all of the Palestinians. If anyone has another viable scenario that can be applied, using real world variables... I'm all ears.
    What I believe is that the current TACTICS of a cycle of violence that only results in counter-violence is not working and hasn't been working for the past 62 years. And both sides are guilty of violence towards the other.
    What I am saying is that one side HAS to restrain from the return fire and say, "Hey... this is getting us no where. You're not going anywhere... neither am I. Let's sit down and work something out where we BOTH make compromises... and give up something, in order to live peacefully together and stop sending our people out to kill each other. Killing each other is not the answer... we HAVE to look at another method to end this."
    ...
    So yeah... I guess I AM ignorant on the matter. I really don't give a crap about who started what or who fired the first shot. I am ignorant in the fact that I don't understand the reasoning on behind the logic that airstrikes on civilian populations or lobbing rockets across the border into civilian populations will somehow solve the problem. I just want to come up with an idea that will end the conflict.
    Someone who is enlightened on how continually killing each other will end the conflict... please, enlighten me.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • badbrains
    badbrains Posts: 10,255
    Who's killing who? If you look at the statistics in last couple of years, I see one side doing almost ALL of the killing. And dnt forget, you're talking about one side that attacked a peace flotilla in the darkness and killing 9 humans(I'm not putting activists), just humans. Spin it anyway they want, they were humans. Not Muslims, Jews, or Christians, they were humans.
  • Cosmo
    Cosmo Posts: 12,225
    edited June 2010
    badbrains wrote:
    Who's killing who? If you look at the statistics in last couple of years, I see one side doing almost ALL of the killing. And dnt forget, you're talking about one side that attacked a peace flotilla in the darkness and killing 9 humans(I'm not putting activists), just humans. Spin it anyway they want, they were humans. Not Muslims, Jews, or Christians, they were humans.
    ...
    I don't get it, please, help me out... because of past killing... future killings are justified? Should the Palestinians be given a free reign of killing to catch up on the body count? Then, the stats would equal. Would that make it better?
    NOTE: That was a rhetorical question. Of course, you don't think leveling out the body count will not solve anything. Only the dimmest of those who walk amongst us would feel that way. I am just trying to question the role of statistical body count in this equation.
    ...
    I am not taking sides with either the Israelis or the Palesinians. Instead, I am opposed to BOTH of them because of what they are doing to each other. In my mind, killing each other is not the answer. I'm not concerned about the statistical body count because it makes the conflict more into a sport, than life versus death. In my book, killing is killing... whether you kill 16 in a rocket attack or suicide bomb or 160 in a massive airstrike. To me... killing is killing and both actions (rocket attacks and airstrikes) are wrong.
    I'm saying the killing needs to stop.. because killing each other is not going to solve anything... unless one side completely exterminates the other. With complete extermination being out of the question.
    ...
    So, again, I ask... what can be done to move towards a long term solution to the ongoing conflict?
    Post edited by Cosmo on
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • Cosmo
    Cosmo Posts: 12,225
    Add:
    This is the preamble to the South Africa Constitution:
    "We, the people of South Africa, Recognize the injustices of our past; Honour those who suffered for justice and freedom in our land;
    Respect those who have worked to build and develop our country; and Believe that South Africa belongs to all who live in it, united in our diversity. We therefore, through our freely elected representatives, adopt this Constitution as the supreme law of the Republic so as to —

    Heal the divisions of the past and establish a society based on democratic values, social justice and fundamental human rights; Lay the foundations for a democratic and open society in which government is based on the will of the people and every citizen is equally protected by law;

    Improve the quality of life of all citizens and free the potential of each person - Build a united and democratic South Africa able to take its rightful place as a sovereign state in the family of nations. May God protect our people.    "
    ...
    Now.. let me ward off any thoughts you may have that I am merely suggesting that the name 'South Africa' be replaced with 'Israel' or 'Palestine'. No... I clearly understand this will not apply, word for word.
    It is the IDEA or BASIC PREMISE conveyed by this preamble is beautiful, in my opinion, and is what i think both Israelis and Palestinians should embrace.
    It recognizes the injustices of the past and honors those who have died and suffered because of it. It recognizes the accomplishments the white settlers who have built and developed the country and accepts all as human of diverse race and culture.
    It further says that in order to heal the wounds of the past, they must all move forward.
    I think that basic premise can be applied in the Middle East. But, in order to do so, they all MUST heal the wounds of the past, NOT by forgetting about them, instead, recognizing that injustices have occurred and pay tribute to those who died and suffered because of it. From that jumping off point, they can all move forward towards a region that lives in peace.
    I may be the only one who feels this way. I hope not.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • badbrains
    badbrains Posts: 10,255
    Cosmo, you have much to learn about this conflict my friend....
  • fuck
    fuck Posts: 4,069
    for cosmo:
    _outlaw wrote:
    there is a growing movement for a binational solution. many palestinians accept this idea, one-state for two people. Israelis reject it because it goes against the notion of a "jewish state" (a racist, selfish idea that should be rejected by everyone in the world but for some reason it's accepted. when white people wanted the same thing in south africa it was eventually condemned but we seem to find it perfectly fine that Israelis stole a land from a people and do not want to give them equal status).

    you must not have read this. palestinians don't actually believe that it is possible to kick israelis out of the land, it's simply impossible to do so, there are millions of them living there. palestinians are calling for their rights to be restored, including the right of return, and to live in one democratic binational state. i highly recommend you also read "One Country: A Bold Proposal to end the Israeli-Palestinian impasse" by Ali Abunimah, the co-founder of electronicintifada.net
  • Cosmo
    Cosmo Posts: 12,225
    badbrains wrote:
    Cosmo, you have much to learn about this conflict my friend....
    ...
    I'll concede that... but, I'm saying that retaliation with violent acts will not solve anything.
    So... regarding the deaths of this specific Naval Blockade... I don't think the Israelis should be retailated against because it does not solve anything. Do you take the opposite viewpoint and believe that a retaliation resulting in death should be launched?
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • TriumphantAngel
    TriumphantAngel Posts: 1,760
    Cosmo wrote:
    TriumphantAngel wrote:
    this is not directed at anyone in particular, it's just something i've noticed many times when having these discussions.

    so often, people will say things like, ''yes i know Israel is the aggressor and what they are doing is wrong and disgusting", even Yosi, Israel's greatest apologist on the board, says "that the IDF is using ridiculously harsh measures" against the Palestinians. ok so we agree on that. then in the next breath, people want to spend so much time and effort 'talking about ''but they are both at fault". i obviously strongly disagree with the 'both at fault'' talk as there is only one country occupying another.

    so i'm left wondering why all these people say how they can see that what Israel is doing is wrong, and they will fight and bicker about the "both at fault", and yet they won't put as much effort into speaking out on behalf of the Palestinians, and demand that the international community stop simply condemning Israel's brutal and illegal blockade of Gaza, and start doing something to end it.

    that's pretty sad isn't it. and this might sound harsh but i dont care, it's how i feel. the Palestinians suffering continues while all this back and forth goes on. 1.5 million ordinary Palestinians are subject to unimaginable horrors every single day. so anyone who "pretends'' to be interested by debating in these threads, and then turns a blind eye to what is happening, is just fooling themselves and has blood on their hands too.
    ...
    Okay.. I understand your point. I'm not talking about the current naval blockade (which I believe Israel should lift... if there is someone that can GUARANTEE that there are no weapons or weapons making materials on board). I am talking about the entire conflict as a whole.
    The question is... what is the solution to this conflict... not the blockade... but the ongoing conflict?
    If your answer is, "Israel must leave, returning its land to the Palestinians"... that is not going to happen... not in the real world. The reality is, Israel is there to stay and are not going to leave and neither are the Palestinians. I take that back... I guess it **could** happen... if you either kill all of the Israelis or if you kill all of the Palestinians. If anyone has another viable scenario that can be applied, using real world variables... I'm all ears.
    What I believe is that the current TACTICS of a cycle of violence that only results in counter-violence is not working and hasn't been working for the past 62 years. And both sides are guilty of violence towards the other.
    What I am saying is that one side HAS to restrain from the return fire and say, "Hey... this is getting us no where. You're not going anywhere... neither am I. Let's sit down and work something out where we BOTH make compromises... and give up something, in order to live peacefully together and stop sending our people out to kill each other. Killing each other is not the answer... we HAVE to look at another method to end this."
    ...
    So yeah... I guess I AM ignorant on the matter. I really don't give a crap about who started what or who fired the first shot. I am ignorant in the fact that I don't understand the reasoning on behind the logic that airstrikes on civilian populations or lobbing rockets across the border into civilian populations will somehow solve the problem. I just want to come up with an idea that will end the conflict.
    Someone who is enlightened on how continually killing each other will end the conflict... please, enlighten me.

    i just want to say something on the bit i highlighted Cosmo. you say not to talk about Israel leaving but they have to. that HAS to be the first step. i'm in favour of a binational solution and am actually opposed to a two state solution. but that's just me. i'll take the two state solution. before that even has a chance of happening, Israel has to cease all settlement expansion and return to the 67 borders. there is no way a real peace agreement will ever be reached without that happening.

    having said that though Cosmo, pretty much the whole of the rest of the world is calling for a two state solution. Hamas has accepted that. the problem is that Israel refuses to abide by international law and cease expansion of settlements. they just keep on doing whatever they want regardless of the consequences. they refuse to acknowledge that the Palestinians have legal rights to a state. Israel has chosen war and occupation. they complain about the rockets that are fired. i'm not sure if you have any clue how ineffective these rockets are compared to what Israel uses. they have the most sophisticated weaponry in the world at its disposal and they use it without mercy. can't you see why the Palestinians use rockets? resistance is what comes with occupation. i don't know you personally, but i do see you fight here for what you believe in Cosmo. if you and your families were continually subjected to what the Palestinians are, i wonder if you would just lay down and not resist? that's how i think of it. what would i do? i hate violence Cosmo. Israels brutal, prolonged occupation would be enough to make the best of us snap.

    Israel clearly have the advantage here. it's not war Cosmo. isn't war when two armies fight against each other? we're talking about 1.5 million people, caged in like animals, subjected to all sorts of inhuman treatment. if people really want peace, and i know i do, then we have to start holding Israel responsible for the conflict. any resistance that the Palestinians are showing is just an act. they have no hope. the Palestinians are the ones subject to occupation. they don't have any reason to give up resistance until Israel begins to treat them humanely. Israel as the occupier is completely responsible for these actions.

    if you have a chance, please can you try and get a copy of Ali Abunimahs book, One Country. it's one of the best things i have ever read on the conflict and i would I recommend it to anyone who is honestly looking to either know more or to do something about the Palestine-Israel cause.
  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,167
    Cosmo, I wholeheartedly agree with you. Violence begets violence, and it is entirely necessary for both parties in this conflict to confront history honestly and acknowledge how each has harmed the other.

    Triumphant, I agree with you as well. Israel needs to stop expanding the settlements and to begin the process of disengaging itself from the West Bank immediately. In practical terms, something that could be done immediately is to create financial incentives to lure the less ideological settlers to homes in Israel proper, while simultaneously getting rid of the incentives (tax breaks, etc.) that lead many people to choose to live in the settlements to begin with. The government needs to police the settlers much more actively, closing down new settlements quickly, and keeping them closed, and ensuring that Palestinians and their property are protected from harm. And they need to immediately start to create the conditions that will allow them to eventually move (forcibly if necessary) the vast majority of the settlers to new homes in Israel (for example, they should start building new communities in Israel proper that will be able to absorb settlers in large numbers).

    A full return to the '67 borders isn't going to happen before a final peace agreement is reached, for the simple reason that this will inevitably involve placing Israel's major population and economic centers in easy range of even the crudest rockets. While I think that this withdrawal is inevitable and necessary, no Israeli government can take such a step absent a final accord that provides credible security guarantees (by the by, the new Palestinian security forces in the West Bank, which have been trained by the U.S., have taken over responsibility for day to day security in the major cities and towns of the West Bank, and have gotten high marks from their Israeli counterparts, with whom they apparently have a pretty good working relationship. This is a very good thing, since a capable Palestinian security force with the will to actually keep the peace in the West Bank goes a long way towards calming Israeli security fears). In any event, I agree that a withdrawal is necessary, and the sooner the better, and while I don't think the IDF can be pulled out before a final accord is signed, I certainly think that civilians (settlers) should be relocated as soon as possible.

    With all that said, I have two final thoughts. The first, Triumphant, is that while I too can understand how anger and hopelessness can drive people to "resistance," it seems to me that you too easily forgive and justify Palestinian violence. When you simply say "well, they're under occupation, and that drove them to violence," what you are doing is shifting responsibility for Palestinian violence onto Israel. That is, to my mind, patronizing, in that it implicitly strips Palestinians of personal responsibility for their actions, and, from the perspective of a path to peace, counterproductive. If there is going to be peace it will require, as Cosmo has so rightly said, a shift in mindset, a willingness on both sides to honestly confront how each side has harmed the other. What you are saying is that Palestinians aren't really responsible for the violence they commit, and in doing so I really believe that you are re-enforcing a mindset that is inimical to peace and reconciliation.

    The second point, simply, is that I just don't understand how anyone can take the bi-national state idea seriously. It's a nice concept, in theory, except for the fact that it is premised on the idea that it is OK to strip Israelis of their right to self-determination, which I believe to be wrong in principle, and more importantly, it ignores reality insofar as Israel will never agree to dissolve itself. If a bi-national state were imposed, more likely than not you'd end up with a civil war, which would almost assuredly be far more bloody (as civil wars tend to be) than any of the violence we have yet seen in this conflict.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    yosi wrote:
    It's a nice concept, in theory, except for the fact that it is premised on the idea that it is OK to strip Israelis of their right to self-determination, which I believe to be wrong in principle.

    You always state this Israeli right to self-determination. Stating that the concept is premised that it's OK to strip (!) Israel of their right is wrong and fear mongering on the Israeli side. ALL have a right to self-determination and, should there be a one state solution, ALL 'parties' (ie all religions/ethnic groups) will be represented and therefore have equal rights with the responsibilities that go with this. ALL will have the same right to this 'self-determination' which, in itself is a very complex issue (and I will not go into it or this post will last forever! Once can question what is really self-determination).

    Naturally, Israel is not keen on this at all as, should a binational state exist, they know the 'jewishness' of the state will be lost and we know that this is not acceptable to zionist Israel.
  • TriumphantAngel
    TriumphantAngel Posts: 1,760
    yosi wrote:
    With all that said, I have two final thoughts. The first, Triumphant, is that while I too can understand how anger and hopelessness can drive people to "resistance," it seems to me that you too easily forgive and justify Palestinian violence.
    the Palestinians have the right to defend themselves AND resist the brutal Israeli occupation. it's not like anyone is rushing to their aid to do it for them is it? 1.5 million people forgotten, their suffering ignored by most of the world.

    please watch this video
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqvLtoWBpTU

    it's a video showing settler girls attacking students and teachers at Qurtaba School, blocking their way out of the school as a police officer filmed and soldiers watched. the settlers sing and chant in Hebrew, "there is no Palestine, this is Israel" and "there are no Palestinians." settler boys in the street then blocked the stairs by stoning the students as they tried to come down the stairs. the students scream and run, but are blocked from every direction. though the Israeli police and soldiers were on the scene, they did nothing to prevent injuries despite constant pleading for help from the internationals. documentarian Terje Carlsson filmed this incident. this is NOT an isolated incident.

    do you understand Yosi, that this is the sort of treatment that the ordinary, beautiful children of Palestine are subjected to every single day. these are children. this is their life. they see the authorities stand back and do nothing. yet they dare throw rocks at heavily-armed and bullet-proofed Israeli occupation troops, and what's their punishment? they are thrown in Israeli jails. why is it ok for the IDF to sit back and do nothing to help the Palestinian children? what lesson does that teach them? it teaches them that no one cares about them. they have to fight to survive. if this was just an isolated incident it would be bad enough, but it's not. it's state-sponsored terrorism against defenseless children. children who are subjected to cruel and inhuman treatment at the hands of Israeli soldiers. and the purpose? there can only be one. they want to slowly and methodically crush their will for wanting to live free on their own land. things that we take for granted. is it really any wonder they grow up and one day and retaliate?

    and from Rachel...

    Just want to write to my Mom and tell her that I'm witnessing this chronic, insidious genocide and I'm really scared, and questioning my fundamental belief in the goodness of human nature. This has to stop. I think it is a good idea for us all to drop everything and devote our lives to making this stop. Disbelief and horror is what I feel. Disappointment. I am disappointed that this is the base reality of our world and that we, in fact, participate in it. This is not at all what I asked for when I came into this world. This is not at all what the people here asked for when they came into this world.

    If any of us had our lives and welfare completely strangled, lived with children in a shrinking place where we knew, because of previous experience, that soldiers and tanks and bulldozers could come for us at any moment and destroy all the greenhouses that we had been cultivating for however long, and did this while some of us were beaten and held captive with 149 other people for several hours - do you think we might try to use somewhat violent means to protect whatever fragments remained? I think about this especially when I see orchards and greenhouses and fruit trees destroyed - just years of care and cultivation. I think about you and how long it takes to make things grow and what a labour of love it is. I really think, in a similar situation, most people would defend themselves as best they could. I think Uncle Craig would. I think probably Grandma would. I think I would.
    - Rachel Corrie
  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    TriumphantAngel wrote:
    the Palestinians have the right to defend themselves AND resist the brutal Israeli occupation.

    Though not completely comparable, it is like the French resistance in occupied France during WWII. 'Freedom fighters' for the French, terrorists for the Nazis. It was considered 'heroic' and a even a duty to resist the occupier/oppressor and I don't think anyone has a problem with that. So, isn't it a bit the same with the occupied territories, wouldn't you think?
  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,167
    Triumphant, first of all, I am fine with Palestinians practicing self-defense. And quite frankly I am fine with Palestinians resisting the occupation. I fail to see how deliberately trying to murder civilians, regardless of whether it is with bomb belts or by firing rockets (however crude they may be) qualifies as either self-defense or resistance to the occupation. The "targets" of such violence aren't involved in attacking Palestinians when they are killed, so it is hard to see how self-defense would apply, and they are almost always killed within Israel proper, and not in the occupied territories.

    I do not deny the brutality of the occupation. But you haven't dealt with the substance of my criticism.

    Look, the Palestinians are people just like any other people. There have been others who have faced oppression and have made the choice to resist it without resorting to tactics of terrorism. I understand the argument Pape makes about terror being the weapon of the weak, but that is a matter of tactics and nothing more. Being the less powerful party does not strip you of the ability to choose your actions, nor does it absolve you of responsibility for your choices. I'm not going to be so cliche as to say that the Palestinians should be like Gandhi or King. Violence has its place. The first Intifada served a purpose. It woke Israelis up (most of them at least) and made them realize, probably for the first time, that the occupation was ultimately unsustainable. THAT was justified resistance. But now "resistance" has just calcified into this mantra that is repeated over and over again as a justification for everything the Palestinians do. They blow up a bus full of kids, "terrible, but they have a right to resist." They fire rockets into civilian neighborhoods, "terrible, but they're just resisting occupation."

    You know those Chines finger traps, where you put a finger in each end, and the harder you pull to get them out the tighter the trap becomes? That's what happened to "resistance." Israelis (most of them at least) want nothing more than to be done with the Palestinians, to end the occupation and live in peace. The thing is that they have faced so much "resistance," they've seen so many people killed and maimed by Palestinians "resisting" occupation, that they no longer trust the Palestinians enough to feel safe as their neighbors. So Israelis allow the occupation to go on, even though they'd like it not to, because they've seen so much violence that they are now convinced that the guys next door just want to kill them no matter what, that "resistance" isn't about the occupation at all, but about Israel itself. It doesn't really matter whether they're right or not, that's what they think, so they figure that until things change, until the Palestinians no longer seem like they just want to kill Israelis, they'll be safer with the occupation than without it. I'm not saying they're justified in this. I'm just saying that this is the way it is. So what's happened is that the "resistance" is feeding the occupation. The more Palestinians "resist" the occupation with violence, the less likely it is that Israelis will feel secure enough to end the occupation. "Resistance" is doing the exact opposite of what it is supposed to do, but everyone is so caught up in the mantra, so intoxicated by it, so convinced that "resistance" is like inertia, the inevitable reaction against occupation, and that it is just fine for "resistance" to take the form of violence, that nobody stops to ask whether "resistance" is getting them anywhere. AND YOU, AND ALL THE PEOPLE WHO THINK LIKE YOU, ARE FEEDING THIS. What you don't get is that you are doing harm with the best intentions. By being an apologist for violence you are re-enforcing a mindset that prolongs the occupation that you'd like to see ended.

    I'm not saying that Palestinians don't have a right to resist the occupation, or that they shouldn't exercise that right. What I'm saying is that they need to take responsibility for the manner in which they resist, for the means they employ, realizing that "resistance" is supposed to be a means to an end, not the end itself, and that the route they've chosen to take has actually taken them backwards.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    Somehow Yosi you have managed to deflect and paint Israel as victim again (it's their fault type argument).

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