U.S. to aid $400 million to Palastine..

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  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,167
    LikeAnOcean wrote:
    Your Mom Is Sleeping Over wrote:
    As this thread takes a predictable turn down the "Fuck Israel" spiral...

    I s r a e l. 'A' before 'E'.

    At which point did you say "Fuck Skool"?
    My spelling sucks, sorry, but that's besides the point. What is IsrAel doing for us with the 3 billion we give them? Like you said, shouldn't we be worried about helping people here?

    I'm just trying to understand this. I don't like taking sides with anyone over there.


    If you want to get technical with spelling, "thru" is not a word, just so you know. There's a quite a few gramical errors in your posts, but I won't hold them against you.

    Actually Israel does quite a lot. It is one of the leading centers of technological innovation in the world. Much of the technology in your cellphone, in your computer, probably even a lot of the technology that runs this site was developed in Israel. They've made huge contributions to medical technology, nano technology, green technology, not to mention the development of agricultural methods for arid environments that are now being deployed across large areas of Africa. So actually they've done quite a lot for us.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • haffajappa
    haffajappa British Columbia Posts: 5,955
    I remember a chart one of my profs showed in class of the wealth distribution of the world, with the richest 5% of the world (where most of the money lies) showed in a specific colour. Homeless people of North America fall within this portion.

    Not saying that homelessness isn't a problem (I come from an area of Canada that has one of the biggest homeless problems in the country) - but I don't particulary understand when people are up in arms about foreign aid and not all the other stuff that the government wastes its money on... i mean, i usually get mad about the government spending money on war, olympics, their own fat raises, etc. instead of our homeless problems... foreign aid seems a lot more important than a lot of things you may have forgotten your money goes to...
    live pearl jam is best pearl jam
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    UNCONDITIONAL aid to palestine is a good thing. it sure as hell beats having to come down heavy on israel doesnt it?? ;)
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  • fuck
    fuck Posts: 4,069
    Cosmo wrote:
    Why can't...
    Israel (and the international Community, including the U.S.) turn jusisdiction of Gaza back to Egypt? This way, Egypt will be held responsible and fully accountable for Gaza, including any attacks on Israel that are launched from Gaza.
    what gives Israel and the international community the right to deem Gaza Egyptian territory all of a sudden? And why does Egypt have to be held responsible and accountable for Gaza, as if the 1.5 million people living there are too incompetent to care for themselves? Just lift the blockade and let them live normal lives under their own jurisdiction, not anyone else's.
    And is there a problem with the establishment of a Paletinian state... within the current borders of Arab states? I mean, can Syria or Jordan... Egypt or Iraq set up a territory for a Palestinian state... with full national soverignty after 2 decades of non-violent actions against Israel?
    I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here - are you suggesting that one of these Arab countries cut off some of their land so that Palestinians establish a state there? I'm going to assume you are being sarcastic or something because that is otherwise just flawed logic.
    Or... how set is Israel with their current location/neighbors? How about we work out a three-way deal with Mexico? Mexico sells off Baja California and that becomes the new israel. All of the Mexicans living in Baja California are automatically U.S. Citizens (unless they wish to maintain their Mexican citizenship and move to mainland Mexico... or convert to Judaism). Baja could use new management... it is beatuiful... amazing coastlands and beaches... and... it's a fucking desert, just like the Middle East.
    This way... Israel has no more rocket attacks and exploding city busses... Baja California is under new management... no more illegal immigrants crossing the San Diego border, Mexico gets a ton of cash (to hopefully, build up a middle class) and the Arabs can carve up the Middle East any way they wish and can revert to the tribal conflicts that have been going between them for the past 1400 years and have no one to blame, but themselves.
    k, now i know you're joking...
  • TriumphantAngel
    TriumphantAngel Posts: 1,760
    Mahaloev2324 wrote:
    To me it's more like a 'personal' slap in the face to the people of the United States. How about all of the homeless & starving young American youth that go unoticed everyday here? There's always a hidden agenda when this country 'provides' aid to other countries. Money+Weapons=Power, I suppose...Home of the brave & land of the free. It really all makes me wanna cry when I think about what the future holds for my children. I'm guessing this $400 million donation could be one of the reasons why my childrens school was cut soooo much money from it's budget & now there are absolutely no extra-curricular programs being offered to the children. I may be waaay off topic here but shit like this makes me sick. What happened to this countries 'patriotism'?
    you really think the $400 million donation is one of the reasons your childrens school had it's budget cut? because of $400 million dollars?

    are you are aware of the $3 billion in direct foreign assistance each year that the U.S. gives Israel, which is close enough to 1/5th of the US foreign aid budget? aid which backs and supports Israel's illegal and brutal occupation against the Palestinians which has been going on for years.

    the US is funding the siege of gaza, if you're an american you are paying for brutality and repression and misery.

    be outraged about that.
  • Cosmo
    Cosmo Posts: 12,225
    _outlaw wrote:
    what gives Israel and the international community the right to deem Gaza Egyptian territory all of a sudden? And why does Egypt have to be held responsible and accountable for Gaza, as if the 1.5 million people living there are too incompetent to care for themselves? Just lift the blockade and let them live normal lives under their own jurisdiction, not anyone else's.

    I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here - are you suggesting that one of these Arab countries cut off some of their land so that Palestinians establish a state there? I'm going to assume you are being sarcastic or something because that is otherwise just flawed logic.
    ...
    Yeah.. it was meant to be tongue in cheek...
    But, seriously... wasn't Gaza part of Egypt prior to the 1967 War? It is considered occupied territory, right?
    How about Israel giving Gaza back to Egypt and telling Egypt they are responsible for attacks launched from Eqyptian soil.
    ...
    And you know how Jordan, Syria, Saudi Arabia, et al are always citing the plight of the Palestinians as a central issue in the region? Why don't they take in the Palestinians into their homelands? Like Iran, for example... they are bitching about Israel all the time and how Israel needs to be kicked out of the region... why can't they carve out a plot within their borders to set up a homeland for them?
    I think, you are likely to find that they don't want them in their homes either. I think that even if Israel were to pack up and move out... like to Baja California or something... there would STILL be problems in the Middle East. I think the major force that is keeping them from fighting with each other is the common enemy of Israel in their neighborhood.
    Personally... i think they a ALL fucked up... Israel, the Arab States, Iran... they are all acting like assholes... killing each other... sending off young men to blow themselves up on a bus because an airstrike leveled a city block because a young man blew himself up in a cafe because a helicopter attack killed a buch of civilians because...
    They must not value life very much over there... or they are fucking stupid in thinking this airstrike will be the last one needed or that next suicide bomber will be the one to end the conflict. Life must be cheap and mean very little if they continue to think that what they are doing is a success.
    Am i wrong, here?
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • BinauralJam
    BinauralJam Posts: 14,158
    Jason P wrote:
    Our troops will not be leaving for some time. Go look at the map and see what lies in between Iraq and Afghanistan.

    That's a Scary god damn thought.
  • rebornFixer
    rebornFixer Posts: 4,901
    Cosmo wrote:
    And you know how Jordan, Syria, Saudi Arabia, et al are always citing the plight of the Palestinians as a central issue in the region? Why don't they take in the Palestinians into their homelands? Like Iran, for example... they are bitching about Israel all the time and how Israel needs to be kicked out of the region... why can't they carve out a plot within their borders to set up a homeland for them?

    I have had this same thought many times ... Glad someone else mentioned it. Jordan has made it very clear that they don't want a large body of Palestinians in their territory. Iran is heavy on the rhetoric and arms dealing, but hasn't exactly stepped up to help with any Palestinian homeland. The whole Iran thing is just odd to me in the first place ... Historically, Iranians have clashed with the Arab world ... They fought a 10-year war with Iraq, and the Saudis even got pulled in. But suddenly now, Iran is casting itself in this saviour role. I think it all fits the Iranian government's strategic and religious aspirations, and has sweet fuck all to do with concerns about the Palestinian people.
  • fuck
    fuck Posts: 4,069
    Cosmo wrote:
    _outlaw wrote:
    what gives Israel and the international community the right to deem Gaza Egyptian territory all of a sudden? And why does Egypt have to be held responsible and accountable for Gaza, as if the 1.5 million people living there are too incompetent to care for themselves? Just lift the blockade and let them live normal lives under their own jurisdiction, not anyone else's.

    I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here - are you suggesting that one of these Arab countries cut off some of their land so that Palestinians establish a state there? I'm going to assume you are being sarcastic or something because that is otherwise just flawed logic.
    ...
    Yeah.. it was meant to be tongue in cheek...
    But, seriously... wasn't Gaza part of Egypt prior to the 1967 War? It is considered occupied territory, right?
    How about Israel giving Gaza back to Egypt and telling Egypt they are responsible for attacks launched from Eqyptian soil.
    between 48 and 67 Egypt occupied Gaza until Israel took over after the 67 war. Israel will not give control over Gaza to the Egyptians, they don't trust them at all and it would go against their plans to beat the Palestinian people into submission because they don't like their democratically elected government.
    Either way though, your logic is STILL flawed. why should anyone have control over Gaza other than the people who live there? They are not Egyptian, trading one occupier for the other is a meaningless attempt at just forcing the Palestinians to submit under foreign rule.
    ...
    And you know how Jordan, Syria, Saudi Arabia, et al are always citing the plight of the Palestinians as a central issue in the region? Why don't they take in the Palestinians into their homelands? Like Iran, for example... they are bitching about Israel all the time and how Israel needs to be kicked out of the region... why can't they carve out a plot within their borders to set up a homeland for them?
    again this logic makes no sense. Iran is miles away from there, why should the Palestinians be forced to relocate from their original homes? additionally, Israel is obviously the aggressor and the occupier in this conflict, why should we ignore their need to abide by international law and force another country to give up part of its territory because the Israelis don't want to give land back? Iran has every right to call out Israel's crimes, and all the countries who don't, including which ever Western country you live in (if it's the US then you should get my point) should be ashamed of themselves for letting this rogue state go on committing these crimes and massacres while facing no repercussions. is this not disturbing to you?
    I think, you are likely to find that they don't want them in their homes either. I think that even if Israel were to pack up and move out... like to Baja California or something... there would STILL be problems in the Middle East. I think the major force that is keeping them from fighting with each other is the common enemy of Israel in their neighborhood.
    what does this have to do with Israel's disregard for international law? because of Cosmo's theory that the Middle East is destined to be fucked up, we should ignore Israel's illegal oppression of Palestinians and let it go by unnoticed? the injustice to the Palestinians has gone on long enough and I think if you just reread what you wrote, you'd see the flaws in your language. if any other state had done this, kept up this occupation for this long, everyone would be condemning them to hell, whereas with this issue everyone says "there's two sides". how come there is no two sides to any other occupation in the history of the world? i like that phrase, "history of the world"
    Personally... i think they a ALL fucked up... Israel, the Arab States, Iran... they are all acting like assholes... killing each other... sending off young men to blow themselves up on a bus because an airstrike leveled a city block because a young man blew himself up in a cafe because a helicopter attack killed a buch of civilians because...
    They must not value life very much over there... or they are fucking stupid in thinking this airstrike will be the last one needed or that next suicide bomber will be the one to end the conflict. Life must be cheap and mean very little if they continue to think that what they are doing is a success.
    Am i wrong, here?
    yes you are wrong. in fact you should know you're wrong by your categorization ... your usage of "they" to refer to everyone is startling. you know black people in the US are thieves right and drug dealers right? they must not care about the law, that's your logic right here, stereotypical and borderline racist.

    I suggest you read Robert Pape's "Dying to Win" where he assesses the strategic logic of suicide terrorism, I think it'll shed light on this last paragraph of yours that breathes ignorance
  • fuck
    fuck Posts: 4,069
    rebornFixer wrote:
    Cosmo wrote:
    And you know how Jordan, Syria, Saudi Arabia, et al are always citing the plight of the Palestinians as a central issue in the region? Why don't they take in the Palestinians into their homelands? Like Iran, for example... they are bitching about Israel all the time and how Israel needs to be kicked out of the region... why can't they carve out a plot within their borders to set up a homeland for them?

    I have had this same thought many times ... Glad someone else mentioned it. Jordan has made it very clear that they don't want a large body of Palestinians in their territory. Iran is heavy on the rhetoric and arms dealing, but hasn't exactly stepped up to help with any Palestinian homeland. The whole Iran thing is just odd to me in the first place ... Historically, Iranians have clashed with the Arab world ... They fought a 10-year war with Iraq, and the Saudis even got pulled in. But suddenly now, Iran is casting itself in this saviour role. I think it all fits the Iranian government's strategic and religious aspirations, and has sweet fuck all to do with concerns about the Palestinian people.
    historically Iranians clashed with Arabs? I mean, you must be forgetting all those centuries when they were all one empire... they also dont really clash that much - everyone knows the Iran-Iraq war was just a war waged by a dictator who was used by the US. other than that, Iranian and Arab relations only suffer due to stupid schism conflicts that go back centuries. however Iran does have good relations with some Arab countries and groups, such as Syria and Hezbollah who is a major party in Lebanon.

    as for why Arab countries don't help out Palestinians, you are both right that Arab countries have certainly made the problem worse and their treatment of Palestinians is disgusting. in fact i am in Amman, Jordan right now and I just visited a Palestinian refugee camp today - it was one of the worst sights I had ever seen. Half a million people living horrendously, they have atleast 5 or 6 families living in 1 building! Lebanon is just as bad if not worse. The only thing about this though is that Israel supporters and defenders (not accusing either one of you of being so, just making a general statement) use the Arab countries' lack of caring for the Palestinian refugees as a distraction from the main problem, which is how they were created in the first place and why they don't have a homeland to go back to yet: Israel.
  • Cosmo
    Cosmo Posts: 12,225
    _outlaw wrote:
    between 48 and 67 Egypt occupied Gaza until Israel took over after the 67 war. Israel will not give control over Gaza to the Egyptians, they don't trust them at all and it would go against their plans to beat the Palestinian people into submission because they don't like their democratically elected government.
    Either way though, your logic is STILL flawed. why should anyone have control over Gaza other than the people who live there? They are not Egyptian, trading one occupier for the other is a meaningless attempt at just forcing the Palestinians to submit under foreign rule.
    ...
    So... Gaza was never a part of Egypt... just occupied by Egypt? Okay then, Egypt is off the hook.
    ...
    _outlaw wrote:
    again this logic makes no sense. Iran is miles away from there, why should the Palestinians be forced to relocate from their original homes? additionally, Israel is obviously the aggressor and the occupier in this conflict, why should we ignore their need to abide by international law and force another country to give up part of its territory because the Israelis don't want to give land back? Iran has every right to call out Israel's crimes, and all the countries who don't, including which ever Western country you live in (if it's the US then you should get my point) should be ashamed of themselves for letting this rogue state go on committing these crimes and massacres while facing no repercussions. is this not disturbing to you?
    ...
    I'm just saying... Arabs in the region constantly point to the Palestinian issue as a major sticking point in their relations with Israel... but, how do they treat Palestinians in their countries? Like shit, right? If not Iran... then how about Syria, Lebannon or Jordan? They're always bitching about the Israeli/Palenstinian conflict... how about they open their doors to them (Palestinians)?
    ...
    _outlaw wrote:
    what does this have to do with Israel's disregard for international law? because of Cosmo's theory that the Middle East is destined to be fucked up, we should ignore Israel's illegal oppression of Palestinians and let it go by unnoticed? the injustice to the Palestinians has gone on long enough and I think if you just reread what you wrote, you'd see the flaws in your language. if any other state had done this, kept up this occupation for this long, everyone would be condemning them to hell, whereas with this issue everyone says "there's two sides". how come there is no two sides to any other occupation in the history of the world? i like that phrase, "history of the world"
    ...
    I've read and reread this and can't make heads or tails out of it in the context of my comments. I'm therefore, writing this off as your predetermined rant about the injustices of Isreal (of which I agree on). If you want to discuss what the region would possibly be like if Israel were to pull up anchor and ship out, fine. But, save your little tirades for discussions concerned with them.
    ...
    But... as a side note: There are two sides in other occupations... U.S. occupation in Iraq, comes to mind. How about Germany's occupation in most of Europe in the early 1940? Britian's occupation of Northern Ireland... Rome's occupation of Judea? Weren't those also part of the 'History Of The World'?
    ...
    _outlaw wrote:
    yes you are wrong. in fact you should know you're wrong by your categorization ... your usage of "they" to refer to everyone is startling. you know black people in the US are thieves right and drug dealers right? they must not care about the law, that's your logic right here, stereotypical and borderline racist.
    ...
    Okay... break out th 'Racist Card'. Can't you do ANY better than that? It's really sad... yet, Race Cards make me laugh because they are typically broken out in places where racism doesn't exist and are typically played by the simplest of minds.
    I'm saying that the Arabs and the Israelis (hence, the ALL of Them comment) must not value life, if they continue to prolong this revenge killing... for what reason? You try to paint me as racist... well, here's more stuff so you can play that other Racist Card hidden up your sleeve:
    It's like the gang wars in the streets of Los Angeles between Crips and Bloods. They revenge murder each other to gain what? At some point you'd think they'd come to a realization that they are killing each other out of habit, not necessity. And yes.. ALL of the Crips and Bloods are acting like assholes because they are killing eacth other for no other reason but, revenge.
    ...
    _outlaw wrote:
    I suggest you read Robert Pape's "Dying to Win" where he assesses the strategic logic of suicide terrorism, I think it'll shed light on this last paragraph of yours that breathes ignorance.
    ...
    I'll check into it... and I'm certain there is strategic logic tied to suicide bombing. But, isn't there also strategic logic tied to airstrikes? Who's strategic logic is more logical?
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • TriumphantAngel
    TriumphantAngel Posts: 1,760
    Cosmo wrote:
    They must not value life very much over there... or they are fucking stupid in thinking this airstrike will be the last one needed or that next suicide bomber will be the one to end the conflict. Life must be cheap and mean very little if they continue to think that what they are doing is a success.
    i value life. that's why i fight so hard to try and bring awareness to the injustices that the Palestinians in the occupied territories are subjected to every day Cosmo.

    don't fool yourself that the firing of rockets compares to Israel's ongoing siege of Gaza. there is only ONE side occupying the other. the Palestinians are imprisoned in Gaza and have no military force other than guns and homemade rockets. Israel, has the most sophisticated weaponry in the world at its disposal and uses it without mercy. they bomb Gaza Strip with F-16 fighter planes and helicopter gun ships. they target civillians. their response is completely disproportionate to the damage caused by the rocket fire from Gaza, which is a retaliation for Israel's aggression and illegal occupation. israel is NOT under threat. the number of Israelis killed and injured by rockets has been very few compared to the Palestinians killed in Gaza. if you are interested, i can give you plenty of statistics to back this up.

    who the fuck are Israel to punish an an entire population? their actions are illegal under international law. (Israel has proven time and time again that they don't give a rats ass about international law though). most of the 1.5 million Palestinians in Gaza are not combatants. they are just trying to live their life in peace, forced to live in apartheid conditions. ordinary beautiful people, families and children. how dare the Israel government treat them like that. they are locked up like animals and every single one of their basic human rights are denied because of the actions of a few?

    the UN consistantly condemns the Israeli settlements in the occupied territories as illegal, and their treatment of the Palestinians as brutal and inhumane. the Palestinians have, and continue to sufffer years of physical and psychological violence and oppression at the hands of Israel. there is nothing that anyone could say to me, that will ever in my eyes, justify the ongoing illegal and brutal occupation that the Palestinians are subjected to every single day. there is nothing anyone could say to me, that will convince me that Israel has the right to imprison an entire population of people.

    there is no damn justification at all. people can bring up every fact, every link, every god damn conversation in the history of the situation, but there is nothing that the Palestinians have ever done that justifies this. not a damn thing.

    here's a thought. people should be demanding that the international community stop simply condemning Israel's brutal and illegal blockade of Gaza, and start doing something to end it. talk is cheap isn't it. meanwhile, the suffering continues.
  • Cosmo
    Cosmo Posts: 12,225
    TriumphantAngel wrote:
    Cosmo wrote:
    They must not value life very much over there... or they are fucking stupid in thinking this airstrike will be the last one needed or that next suicide bomber will be the one to end the conflict. Life must be cheap and mean very little if they continue to think that what they are doing is a success.
    i value life. that's why i fight so hard to try and bring awareness to the injustices that the Palestinians in the occupied territories are subjected to every day Cosmo.

    don't fool yourself that the firing of rockets compares to Israel's ongoing siege of Gaza. there is only ONE side occupying the other. the Palestinians are imprisoned in Gaza and have no military force other than guns and homemade rockets. Israel, has the most sophisticated weaponry in the world at its disposal and uses it without mercy. they bomb Gaza Strip with F-16 fighter planes and helicopter gun ships. they target civillians. their response is completely disproportionate to the damage caused by the rocket fire from Gaza, which is a retaliation for Israel's aggression and illegal occupation. israel is NOT under threat. the number of Israelis killed and injured by rockets has been very few compared to the Palestinians killed in Gaza. if you are interested, i can give you plenty of statistics to back this up.

    who the fuck are Israel to punish an an entire population? their actions are illegal under international law. (Israel has proven time and time again that they don't give a rats ass about international law though). most of the 1.5 million Palestinians in Gaza are not combatants. they are just trying to live their life in peace, forced to live in apartheid conditions. ordinary beautiful people, families and children. how dare the Israel government treat them like that. they are locked up like animals and every single one of their basic human rights are denied because of the actions of a few?

    the UN consistantly condemns the Israeli settlements in the occupied territories as illegal, and their treatment of the Palestinians as brutal and inhumane. the Palestinians have, and continue to sufffer years of physical and psychological violence and oppression at the hands of Israel. there is nothing that anyone could say to me, that will ever in my eyes, justify the ongoing illegal and brutal occupation that the Palestinians are subjected to every single day. there is nothing anyone could say to me, that will convince me that Israel has the right to imprison an entire population of people.

    there is no damn justification at all. people can bring up every fact, every link, every god damn conversation in the history of the situation, but there is nothing that the Palestinians have ever done that justifies this. not a damn thing.

    here's a thought. people should be demanding that the international community stop simply condemning Israel's brutal and illegal blockade of Gaza, and start doing something to end it. talk is cheap isn't it. meanwhile, the suffering continues.
    ...
    Hey... I'm just saying...
    I don't think Israel is innocent in this thing... I think they are the one that holds most of the responsibility. But, i don't think the Palenstinians are faultless, either. Both sides need to come to a realization that the other one is here to stay. Based with that fact, maybe they can see each other as humans and work out a deal to live together.
    But, since they don't... and continually send their people out to die in a perpetual cycle of payback killing... they must not place much value in human life... or they both think they are going to be the ones who get the last shot in and win the game.
    Like I said... i think the people who believe airstrikes will stop the suicide bombing are as much asshole that think suicide bombings will stop the airstrikes. To those people... life is nothing to them because it is so easy for them to believe in killing.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,167
    Cosmo, regarding your earlier idea about letting Egypt be responsible for Gaza, an idea that is sort of similar to that has actually started to be thrown around in the Israeli press.

    Basically, a lot of Israelis don't want to have anything to do with Gaza. They don't trust Hamas to keep the peace, but they've come to the conclusion that maintaining the blockade isn't effective (before anyone objects to the language just realize that the argument is strategic, and so intentionally doesn't really deal with moral concerns), and that at this point Israel would be better off having nothing to do with Gaza at all. What they suggest is that Israel announce that at some specified future date Israel will end the blockade (though they would retain the right to inspect Gaza-bound ships for weapons), and that they will at the same time close and seal their border with Gaza completely, and stop providing Gaza with all the services they currently provide (electricity, water, humanitarian aid, etc). The announcement would be made so as to allow enough time for Gaza to make provisions to get what they need from other countries, using sea routes and their border with Egypt. Essentially Israel would wash their hands of Gaza entirely.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • TriumphantAngel
    TriumphantAngel Posts: 1,760
    yosi wrote:
    Cosmo, regarding your earlier idea about letting Egypt be responsible for Gaza, an idea that is sort of similar to that has actually started to be thrown around in the Israeli press.

    Basically, a lot of Israelis don't want to have anything to do with Gaza. They don't trust Hamas to keep the peace, but they've come to the conclusion that maintaining the blockade isn't effective (before anyone objects to the language just realize that the argument is strategic, and so intentionally doesn't really deal with moral concerns), and that at this point Israel would be better off having nothing to do with Gaza at all. What they suggest is that Israel announce that at some specified future date Israel will end the blockade (though they would retain the right to inspect Gaza-bound ships for weapons), and that they will at the same time close and seal their border with Gaza completely, and stop providing Gaza with all the services they currently provide (electricity, water, humanitarian aid, etc). The announcement would be made so as to allow enough time for Gaza to make provisions to get what they need from other countries, using sea routes and their border with Egypt. Essentially Israel would wash their hands of Gaza entirely.
    Gaza wishes that Israel would just fuck off and leave them alone. stop pretending that the pathetic bit of aid you may allow through is actually letting these people have an acceptable quality of life. how about you just going back to your accepted borders Israel.

    how about you stop taking the land that is not yours. how about you stop expanding the illegal settlements. how about you stop taking 80% of the water and giving the Palestinians only 20%, how about you stop uprooting their olive tree and other groves at gunpoint, stop the blockades, stop the violence and abuse from illegal settlers, stop battering down villagers front doors in the dead of night at gun-point, pull down the illegal ‘separation’ wall you built, quit isolating their communities, enforcing blockades of exports and imports to cause economic ruin. how about you stop allowing sick people to die because they don't have access to timely health care.

    and most of all stop pretending like you've done everything you can and have no idea why there is violence.
  • TriumphantAngel
    TriumphantAngel Posts: 1,760
    yosi wrote:
    Cosmo, regarding your earlier idea about letting Egypt be responsible for Gaza, an idea that is sort of similar to that has actually started to be thrown around in the Israeli press.

    Basically, a lot of Israelis don't want to have anything to do with Gaza. They don't trust Hamas to keep the peace, but they've come to the conclusion that maintaining the blockade isn't effective (before anyone objects to the language just realize that the argument is strategic, and so intentionally doesn't really deal with moral concerns), and that at this point Israel would be better off having nothing to do with Gaza at all. What they suggest is that Israel announce that at some specified future date Israel will end the blockade (though they would retain the right to inspect Gaza-bound ships for weapons), and that they will at the same time close and seal their border with Gaza completely, and stop providing Gaza with all the services they currently provide (electricity, water, humanitarian aid, etc). The announcement would be made so as to allow enough time for Gaza to make provisions to get what they need from other countries, using sea routes and their border with Egypt. Essentially Israel would wash their hands of Gaza entirely.
    are you suggesting the services currently provided are adequate? you make it sound like Israel is doing the Palestinians a huge favour.

    take note of the effect the blockade is having on the children.

    Suffocating Gaza - the Israeli blockade's effects on Palestinians

    © Amnesty International

    1 June 2010

    Israel's military blockade of Gaza has left more than 1.4 million Palestinian men, women and children trapped in the Gaza Strip, an area of land just 40 kilometres long and 9.5 kilometres wide.

    Mass unemployment, extreme poverty and food price rises caused by shortages have left four in five Gazans dependent on humanitarian aid. As a form of collective punishment, Israel’s continuing blockade of Gaza is a flagrant violation of international law.

    Closed borders
    Since the blockade of Gaza was imposed in June 2007, the five Israeli-controlled crossings between Gaza and Israel or the West Bank have been kept closed.

    The one other land crossing at Rafah, on the border between Gaza and Egypt, is controlled by the Egyptian authorities and kept shut most of the time. The closures prevent the movement of Palestinians into and out of Gaza in all but a handful of cases, generally in exceptional humanitarian cases.

    Basic goods
    The blockade prohibits most exports and restricts the entry of basic goods, including food and fuel. Much of the available food is provided by the UN and other aid agencies, or smuggled in through tunnels running under the Egypt-Gaza border and then sold on at exorbitantly high prices to Gaza’s beleaguered residents.

    The situation has been made worse by the Egyptian government’s construction of a steel wall along the border at Rafah to disrupt the cross-border smuggling that has become Gaza’s lifeline, as well as the bombing of tunnels by the Israeli airforce.

    Economic collapse
    Rather than targeting armed groups, the blockade mainly hits the most vulnerable, such as children (who make up more than half of the population in Gaza), the elderly, the sick and the Gaza Strip's large refugee population.

    According to the United Nations Relief and Works Agency, the number of refugees living in abject poverty in the Gaza Strip has tripled since the blockade began. These families lack the means to purchase even the most basic items, including soap, school materials and clean drinking water. According to the UN, more than 60 per cent of households are currently "food insecure".

    Lack of facilities
    There are worsening problems with the supply of electricity in the Gaza Strip, with many residents enduring 8-12 hours of power cuts each day. There are also recurrent shortages of cooking gas, requiring the implementation of a rationing scheme in which hospitals and bakeries are prioritised.

    Aid blocked
    While Israel allows some humanitarian supplies from international aid agencies into Gaza, these are strictly limited and frequently delayed. UN agencies have said that additional storage and transportation costs incurred from delays due to the blockade totalled around $5 million in 2009.

    Health
    Gaza's health sector has been plagued by shortages in equipment and medical supplies during the blockade.

    Following the Israeli closure of crossings, people with medical conditions that cannot be treated in Gaza have been required to apply for permits to leave the territory to receive treatment in either foreign hospitals or Palestinian hospitals in the West Bank.

    The Israeli authorities frequently delay or refuse these permits; some Gazans have died while waiting to obtain permits to leave the territory for medical treatment elsewhere.

    World Health Organization (WHO) trucks of medical equipment bound for Gazan hospitals have repeatedly been turned away, without explanation, by Israeli border officials.

    The Gaza conflict
    From 27 December 2008 to 18 January 2009, Gaza was subjected to a devastating Israeli military offensive – Operation “Cast Lead” – which Israel said it carried out to stop Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups firing indiscriminate rockets into Israel.

    More then 1,380 Palestinians were killed, including more than 300 children and other civilians, and thousands were injured. Many thousands of homes were destroyed or severely damaged, as were the electricity and water systems. Civilian buildings, including hospitals and schools, were also damaged or destroyed by Israeli attacks.

    Operation “Cast Lead” pushed the humanitarian crisis in Gaza to catastrophic levels. Since it concluded, the blockade has severely hampered or prevented reconstruction efforts. With many construction materials barred or limited by Israel, Gaza’s inhabitants are unable to rebuild their shattered lives.

    Continued violence
    In November 2009, Hamas declared a unilateral cessation of rocket fire, although this has since been breached on several occasions by members of Palestinian armed groups.

    Since the ceasefire following Operation “Cast Lead” in January 2009, one person in southern Israel has been killed by mortars and rockets fired by Palestinian armed groups.

    Israeli military forces, meanwhile, have conducted regular raids into Gaza and have continued to bomb the tunnels under the border at Rafah used for smuggling between Gaza and Egypt. In the year following Operation “Cast Lead”, 71 Palestinians were killed and 130 injured in the Gaza tunnels from tunnel collapse, accidents or airstrikes.

    Israeli soldiers also continue to shoot at Palestinian farmers, fishermen and other civilians when they venture near Gaza’s perimeter or approach the three nautical mile limit that Israel imposes on Gaza’s coastline causing deaths and injuries.

    Collective punishment
    The Israeli authorities have put forward a range of justifications for the blockade - saying variously that it is a response to attacks from Palestinian armed groups, a reaction to the continued holding of the captured Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit, and a means to pressure the Hamas de facto administration.

    But whatever its stated justification, the blockade is collectively punishing the entire population of Gaza, the majority of whom are children, rather than targeting the Hamas administration or armed groups.
  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    TriumphantAngel wrote:
    and most of all stop pretending like you've done everything you can and have no idea why there is violence.

    Exactly.
  • badbrains
    badbrains Posts: 10,255
    Got to say it. Seems to me TA knows her shit! Can't argue with her. Well you can but probably lose. Compassion, will, fiesty, and humanitarian, all rolled up in one. That would be one awesome joint I'd smoke!!!! Keep your voice loud TA. Let everyone hear your message. I'm glad people like you exist and aren't affraid to speak out. And more importantly, never puts her tail between her legs and apologizes for what she feels or what she says, no matter how loud her voice is. As loud as her voice is, it needs to be louder. Turn that volume up TA, never mute your voice cuz a lot of us are listening and learning. Thanks TA!!! :mrgreen:
  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    TriumphantAngel wrote:
    are you are aware of the $3 billion in direct foreign assistance each year that the U.S. gives Israel, which is close enough to 1/5th of the US foreign aid budget? aid which backs and supports Israel's illegal and brutal occupation against the Palestinians which has been going on for years.

    the US is funding the siege of gaza, if you're an american you are paying for brutality and repression and misery.

    be outraged about that.

    Most of this aid being military, TA is spot on. I would add this money funded the slaughter of thousands of Palestinians and is continuing to be used to oppress a people.

    Part of this aid is also to help with the cost of bringing and settling jews from around the world in Israel.
  • fuck
    fuck Posts: 4,069
    Cosmo wrote:
    _outlaw wrote:
    again this logic makes no sense. Iran is miles away from there, why should the Palestinians be forced to relocate from their original homes? additionally, Israel is obviously the aggressor and the occupier in this conflict, why should we ignore their need to abide by international law and force another country to give up part of its territory because the Israelis don't want to give land back? Iran has every right to call out Israel's crimes, and all the countries who don't, including which ever Western country you live in (if it's the US then you should get my point) should be ashamed of themselves for letting this rogue state go on committing these crimes and massacres while facing no repercussions. is this not disturbing to you?
    ...
    I'm just saying... Arabs in the region constantly point to the Palestinian issue as a major sticking point in their relations with Israel...
    not just Israeli relations with Palestinians but with the other Arab countries as well. Remember, Israel still occupies the Golan Heights which legally belongs to Syria.
    but, how do they treat Palestinians in their countries? Like shit, right? If not Iran... then how about Syria, Lebannon or Jordan? They're always bitching about the Israeli/Palenstinian conflict... how about they open their doors to them (Palestinians)?
    agreed. of course there is plenty of criticism of the Arab countries' treatment of Palestinian refugees but again this is just a side issue. There is a Palestinian problem to begin with because of Israel.
    ...
    _outlaw wrote:
    what does this have to do with Israel's disregard for international law? because of Cosmo's theory that the Middle East is destined to be fucked up, we should ignore Israel's illegal oppression of Palestinians and let it go by unnoticed? the injustice to the Palestinians has gone on long enough and I think if you just reread what you wrote, you'd see the flaws in your language. if any other state had done this, kept up this occupation for this long, everyone would be condemning them to hell, whereas with this issue everyone says "there's two sides". how come there is no two sides to any other occupation in the history of the world? i like that phrase, "history of the world"
    ...
    I've read and reread this and can't make heads or tails out of it in the context of my comments. I'm therefore, writing this off as your predetermined rant about the injustices of Isreal (of which I agree on). If you want to discuss what the region would possibly be like if Israel were to pull up anchor and ship out, fine. But, save your little tirades for discussions concerned with them.
    my point was that it is as if you are trying to justify the occupation. maybe justify is not the right word, but basically you are trying to excuse it when there should be no excusing it, Israel should not depend on any other country to fix the problem they created - they should just abide by international law and give the Palestinians their rightful home.
    ...
    But... as a side note: There are two sides in other occupations... U.S. occupation in Iraq, comes to mind. How about Germany's occupation in most of Europe in the early 1940? Britian's occupation of Northern Ireland... Rome's occupation of Judea? Weren't those also part of the 'History Of The World'?
    ...
    maybe that's how you see it, but I see the US occupation of Iraq, the German occupation of Europe, and the British occupation as morally reprehensible and I don't think there are "two sides" to those stories. Unless of course you would like to justify the Nazi occupation of Western Europe in the 1940s, then by all means go for it.
    _outlaw wrote:
    yes you are wrong. in fact you should know you're wrong by your categorization ... your usage of "they" to refer to everyone is startling. you know black people in the US are thieves right and drug dealers right? they must not care about the law, that's your logic right here, stereotypical and borderline racist.
    ...
    Okay... break out th 'Racist Card'. Can't you do ANY better than that? It's really sad... yet, Race Cards make me laugh because they are typically broken out in places where racism doesn't exist and are typically played by the simplest of minds.
    I'm saying that the Arabs and the Israelis (hence, the ALL of Them comment) must not value life, if they continue to prolong this revenge killing... for what reason? You try to paint me as racist... well, here's more stuff so you can play that other Racist Card hidden up your sleeve:
    It's like the gang wars in the streets of Los Angeles between Crips and Bloods. They revenge murder each other to gain what? At some point you'd think they'd come to a realization that they are killing each other out of habit, not necessity. And yes.. ALL of the Crips and Bloods are acting like assholes because they are killing eacth other for no other reason but, revenge.
    the reason I said its borderline racist and it is an unquestionably stereotypical statement because of your obvious grouping of all people into one category. I don't care if you include Israel in that group either. your analogy to the gang wars fails miserably, this is not a war over prestige or control over drug trade or anything that these stupid gangs fight for. seriously? this was the best you could come up with? and the fact that you keep mentioning this notion of 'revenge' killings show you don't understand the nature of this conflict in the simplest terms.
    ...
    _outlaw wrote:
    I suggest you read Robert Pape's "Dying to Win" where he assesses the strategic logic of suicide terrorism, I think it'll shed light on this last paragraph of yours that breathes ignorance.
    ...
    I'll check into it... and I'm certain there is strategic logic tied to suicide bombing. But, isn't there also strategic logic tied to airstrikes? Who's strategic logic is more logical?
    that's not my point. my point is that it's not that these people simply don't value life. there is logic to it, as Pape argues in his book.

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