10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer

Gern Blansten · January 2010

exactly...

redrock · January 2010

EddieLedBetter wrote:

redrock wrote:

Humanism... hmmm.... I think I would tend more toward existentialism though humanism does have good points too (it's not about putting your faith in mankind as a whole and thinking humans are inherently good).
As you say, people have done a lot to fuck things up but, if I read what some believers in this thread have to say, the world is cursed - that's why those things happen. Who cursed this world? It can only be god as he is the 'master of the universe' and controls man's destiny (as believers need to follow his rules or be dammed.) I would rather put my faith in a flawed man that can change things than thinking that bad stuff happen because there is a vengeful god who curses the world.

You cant say humans are inherently good...

Humans cursed the world, God didnt. We chose this path by wanting the knowlege God possesses. The opposition of God dangled it in front of us and we CHOSE it. We could have the knowlege if we want it and we chose it. The opposition still dangles it in front of us to this day and we still choose it by giving into our sinful nature.

Now we know what God knows and are living in that world because we chose to know this about human nature and the natural world. We still chose to search and know scientifically much about the world when all the essentials God has told us in his spoken/written word.

God is only vengeful to his opposition. The deity that he created that chose to rebel and the human that choses to disbelieve and live unaccordingly. .

For your whole post, I just had one thought.... WOW.... Not WOW in awe but more in disbelief.

First, I don't think anyone on this thread suggested that man is inherently good. At least we agree on one thing, man isn't. BUT... we know that and we are therefore masters of our destiny and we can do what we want with this knowledge. Most people would lead a decent life and yes, this may mean a lot of different things to different cultures, etc. You may think having several wives is wrong, others may not, etc. I do not believe in sin and a sinful nature as this is just another god thing.

We know what god knows...again.. wow. I must say it's a good thing we chose to search and gain scientific knowledge and that we don't have to rely on the bible for all our medical and technological needs. Medical advances helped your wife give birth safely.... lots of mothers and babies died during childbirth in the times the bible was written. One tiny example. I'm sure you will argue that god was looking after you guys because you are righteous.

God only vengeful to his opposition.... ie all those who do not believe in the christian god? Damn... Ghandi didn't see that one coming, did he?

EddieLedBetter · January 2010

I ment God watching dinosaurs. How are dinosaurs in direct conflict with the bibles teachings? How do you know the bibles teachings if you dont believe in it? Maybe God wiped out the earth, dinosaurs included, after the fall. Maybe not. The Bible does mention dinosaurs, though it never actually uses the word “dinosaur.” Instead, it uses the Hebrew word tanniyn, which is translated a few different ways in our English Bibles. Sometimes it’s “sea monster,” and sometimes it’s “serpent.” It is most commonly translated “dragon.” The tanniyn appear to have been some sort of giant reptile. These creatures are mentioned nearly thirty times in the Old Testament and were found both on land and in the water.

Haha that picture is far from me my friends as you can see in my icon to the right. What is that picture from?

Maybe we are in different realms. I dont know what you know and you dont know what I know. Like I said "what I believe is". What I believe pertains to me right now. If what I believe is true then it will also pertain to you someday but if not then no biggie

markin ball · January 2010

EddieLedBetter wrote:

redrock wrote:

Humanism... hmmm.... I think I would tend more toward existentialism though humanism does have good points too (it's not about putting your faith in mankind as a whole and thinking humans are inherently good).
As you say, people have done a lot to fuck things up but, if I read what some believers in this thread have to say, the world is cursed - that's why those things happen. Who cursed this world? It can only be god as he is the 'master of the universe' and controls man's destiny (as believers need to follow his rules or be dammed.) I would rather put my faith in a flawed man that can change things than thinking that bad stuff happen because there is a vengeful god who curses the world.

This is what I have gathered studying through faith and human experience.

You cant say humans are inherently good because you you have to first be outside of everything in existence to know what good is. You judge good by your standards and good for you isnt always good for others. No human is all good. In all of us there are good qualities but we give into bad daily. Only an outside force with an all good nature (God) can perscribe what good is = the Bible. Realizing that you are a sinner at heart is the first step. You may do good things but that doesnt make you good. Osama leads his people and they think he is good. We as americans may give to the poor every once and a while but we all become jealous, angry, or vengeful with our friends or family at times. Consider your heart a white sheet and each little sin drops of blood. The more and more sins that enter your life the less and less your inherent goodness (sheet) gets stained.

With that said...

Humans cursed the world, God didnt. We chose this path by wanting the knowlege God possesses. The opposition of God dangled it in front of us and we CHOSE it. We could have the knowlege if we want it and we chose it. The opposition still dangles it in front of us to this day and we still choose it by giving into our sinful nature. He and God are battling for our souls. We fight wars because we are now like our earthy father which is satan. Granted the story of Adam and Eve is in the form of a childs story but it has such great depth and meaning. Is that how it litteraly went down? No I doubt it. Originally the story says we were protected on earth "in a garden". You have to wonder why it specifies that we were protected from the outside world. Dinosaurs, earthquakes, death and destruction for humans were on the outside. These things arent evil naturally only when they start to kill us do we consider them that. Earthquakes are essential to the release of nitrogen from the plates to maintain specific levels in the atmosphere. Dinosaurs are awesome creatures and I'm sure were fun to watch, much like a dog. Death must exist in the outside world or it would become unbalanced and over populated. Now we know what God knows and are living in that world because we chose to know this about human nature and the natural world. We still chose to search and know scientifically much about the world when all the essentials God has told us in his spoken/written word.

God is only vengeful to his opposition. The deity that he created that chose to rebel and the human that choses to disbelieve and live unaccordingly. A person doesnt get comfort from their creator when suffering occurs because he denys it, resulting in hopelessness.

We control our destiny.

You cant come to know God thinking through logic, He is outside the realm of logic.

Finally, we agree. Peace be with you.

redrock · January 2010

EddieLedBetter wrote:

How do you know the bibles teachings if you dont believe in it? )

One does not have to believe the contents of a book to study it.

EddieLedBetter · January 2010

redrock wrote:

EddieLedBetter wrote:

How do you know the bibles teachings if you dont believe in it? )

One does not have to believe the contents of a book to study it.

So you personally have read it front to back?

he still stands · January 2010

EddieLedBetter wrote:

I ment God watching dinosaurs. How are dinosaurs in direct conflict with the bibles teachings?

Because if you BELIEVE in the bible then it clearly adds up to the age of the earth being <10,000 years old. Dinosaurs wandered the earth more than 40 MILLION years ago. Fairly simple... but I have absolutely no idea what you "ment" by "God watching dinosaurs."

http://www.albatrus.org/english/theolog ... _earth.htm

EddieLedBetter wrote:

How do you know the bibles teachings if you dont believe in it?

Huh? You can't be knowledgable of a topic without "believing" it? Just because I've read Mein Kampf doesn't mean that I believe Hitler's philosophy. Similarly, just because I've read (most) of the bible doesn't mean that I believe it to be true.

EddieLedBetter wrote:

Maybe God wiped out the earth, dinosaurs included, after the fall. Maybe not. The Bible does mention dinosaurs, though it never actually uses the word “dinosaur.” Instead, it uses the Hebrew word tanniyn, which is translated a few different ways in our English Bibles. Sometimes it’s “sea monster,” and sometimes it’s “serpent.” It is most commonly translated “dragon.” The tanniyn appear to have been some sort of giant reptile. These creatures are mentioned nearly thirty times in the Old Testament and were found both on land and in the water.

Ok, so with that logic, every tale of monsters/serpents/lizards in the history of man is about dinosaurs? That is a pretty bold leap.

redrock · January 2010

EddieLedBetter wrote:

redrock wrote:

EddieLedBetter wrote:

How do you know the bibles teachings if you dont believe in it? )

One does not have to believe the contents of a book to study it.

So you personally have read it front to back?

Pretty much so, I would say. But that's not the point. The point is BELIEVING what a book says to be able to study it. One can study text without having an affinity with what is written.

dpmay · January 2010

redrock wrote:

dpmay wrote:

redrock wrote:

You know you exist (somewhat concrete evidence of this!), you can feel yourself, see yourself, others see and feel you. You are master of your destiny. No one saw god, no concrete evidence of him being around... I would say faith in myself is more reasonable.

Though we could always go the Descartes way and how he decided god existed.

yes, all good points about my existence. however i believe that faith in one's self requires as much logical defense as faith in god. many very bad people have had faith in themselves. was that faith justified more than my own faith in god?

we also have a lot of evidence that people have done a lot to fuck things up around here, and it's just hard for me to put my ultimate faith in something that has been proved so often to be so messed up. humanity, that is. i guess that sounds really negative, and i don't necessarily mean it that way. it's just that, ultimately, humanism places so much faith in something that we have definitely seen to be, shall we say, less than good?

I'm not saying if placing faith in myself (bad or good!) is more 'justified' than placing faith in a god. I'm saying it seems more reasonable to me.

Humanism... hmmm.... I think I would tend more toward existentialism though humanism does have good points too (it's not about putting your faith in mankind as a whole and thinking humans are inherently good).
As you say, people have done a lot to fuck things up but, if I read what some believers in this thread have to say, the world is cursed - that's why those things happen. Who cursed this world? It can only be god as he is the 'master of the universe' and controls man's destiny (as believers need to follow his rules or be dammed.) I would rather put my faith in a flawed man that can change things than thinking that bad stuff happen because there is a vengeful god who curses the world.

so maybe i used the word 'justified' interchangably with 'reasonable' which i suppose isn't really right. but i think my point is still valid - faith in one's self could seem completely reasonable, even if what you believed was that the voices were telling you to cut people up. (to which i suppose you will reply, well, an individual's faith in god could be equally crazy and unreasonable. touche.)

i guess my main point is that while belief in a god is ultimately an issue of faith, in can be enacted in a reasonable way. and i think that other life-guiding faiths, which we agree most people follow in some form or another, are also matters of faith which can be enacted in reasonable ways. as such, i don't think it's fair for the non-god-believer to criticize the god-believer for being unreasonable.

(it's also fair to say i misused the word humanism.)

as for why is the world fucked up, well, i have never said that is becasue god cursed the world. i personally believe that the world is fucked up beacuse the god i believe in gave people the choice to do pretty much whatever they want, and sometimes individuals and groups have chosen things that have fucked things up.

and for 'follow the rules or be damned', well, what exactly 'follow the rules' means and what exactly 'damned' means is a huge matter of disagreement inside the christian community. another of my initial points - it's easy for non-god-believers to attack certain strains of christian thought, but not all christians think about these issues the same way.

but thank you for responding to me, you are making me think. i hope i can return the favor...

dpmay · January 2010

Gern Blansten wrote:

my life has no value to you....my dogs life has no value to you

our lives only have value to our families....not to invisible people

au contraire mon frere, your life does have value to me - at the risk of sounding like a creepy internet stalker weirdo - haha.

in fact, this is part of what i'm trying to say: why do people care about people they've never met, people they'll never see? we have a lot of evidence that this is true. tens (maybe hundreds) of millions raised for the people of haiti. why do so many people care about people they do not know, invisible people, as you say?

i have heard some argue that this is only because it gives the donor (in this specific example) a good, warm-fuzzy feeling inside, or something like that. or that evolution has caused us to care about each other because it strengthens the tribe. but that doesn't hold when we are talking about invisible people - actually, if i help someone outside my own tribe, i am reducing the resources available to my own, thus hurting myself. so why should i be so concerned about invisible people?

i believe it is because people are hard-wired to recognize that other people, even invisible people, have inherent value. and so, for me, the questions remains: whence cometh this value?

redrock · January 2010

dpmay wrote:

and for 'follow the rules or be damned', well, what exactly 'follow the rules' means and what exactly 'damned' means is a huge matter of disagreement inside the christian community. another of my initial points - it's easy for non-god-believers to attack certain strains of christian thought, but not all christians think about these issues the same way..

Absolutely... but I think a lot of these responses are 'fuelled' by a more, how shall I say, 'fervent' believer in this thread. I've been raised a catholic... I know how/what religion can be. Been/am close to all kinds of different christians (best friend very practising, other very good friend a priest, etc.) but basic teachings are the same, the god is the same. OK... not all will see Jesus the same way, the holy trinity the same, etc. but still...blind faith in some almighty god is just something that I can't have. Good for those that do and feel that is what they need for their existence to have direction/value .

dpmay · January 2010

EddieLedBetter wrote:

So you personally have read it front to back?

and ohbytheway, ELB, i want to say that even though we do not appear to agree on everything, we agree on the big stuff that actually matters to christians, and that i respect the strength of your convictions - from one christian to another.

Gern Blansten · January 2010

dpmay wrote:

Gern Blansten wrote:

my life has no value to you....my dogs life has no value to you

our lives only have value to our families....not to invisible people

au contraire mon frere, your life does have value to me - at the risk of sounding like a creepy internet stalker weirdo - haha.

in fact, this is part of what i'm trying to say: why do people care about people they've never met, people they'll never see? we have a lot of evidence that this is true. tens (maybe hundreds) of millions raised for the people of haiti. why do so many people care about people they do not know, invisible people, as you say?

i have heard some argue that this is only because it gives the donor (in this specific example) a good, warm-fuzzy feeling inside, or something like that. or that evolution has caused us to care about each other because it strengthens the tribe. but that doesn't hold when we are talking about invisible people - actually, if i help someone outside my own tribe, i am reducing the resources available to my own, thus hurting myself. so why should i be so concerned about invisible people?

i believe it is because people are hard-wired to recognize that other people, even invisible people, have inherent value. and so, for me, the questions remains: whence cometh this value?

by invisible people I was referring to god...

evolution has nothing to do with charitable contributions....if I give $100 to Haiti my children are not affected at all except maybe their inheritance will be $100 less but assume I blew that $100 on lotto tickets or something....

I really don't follow your "value" discussion....I have a feeling it is related to the supernatural in some way which I do not see evidence of so I'm afraid I can't participate in that.....

my point was if I died tomorrow you would have no idea....you would forget about this discussion in a few days and never think of me again....therefore I certainly have no value to you

dpmay · January 2010

redrock wrote:

dpmay wrote:

and for 'follow the rules or be damned', well, what exactly 'follow the rules' means and what exactly 'damned' means is a huge matter of disagreement inside the christian community. another of my initial points - it's easy for non-god-believers to attack certain strains of christian thought, but not all christians think about these issues the same way..

Absolutely... but I think a lot of these responses are 'fuelled' by a more, how shall I say, 'fervent' believer in this thread. I've been raised a catholic... I know how/what religion can be. Been/am close to all kinds of different christians (best friend very practising, other very good friend a priest, etc.) but basic teachings are the same, the god is the same. OK... not all will see Jesus the same way, the holy trinity the same, etc. but still...blind faith in some almighty god is just something that I can't have. Good for those that do and feel that is what they need for their existence to have direction/value .

i see. i too was raised catholic (so naturally i don't believe in god - isn't that the punchline? haha) and i agree, blind faith is something i can't have either. i believe that god exists, but i'm not certain and i wonder a lot about it. so much, in fact, that i spend time in threads like this - yeah. sometimes i wish i did have blind faith, maybe my life would be easier, but ultimately it wouldn't be worth it to me. the god i believe in gave me a brain, and the power of reason, and so i believe i am meant to question, and try to augment my faith with thought. not blind faith at all really.

Hugh Freaking Dillon · January 2010

one thing that may or may not have been touched upon, is that faith seems to be ruled specifically by geography. What does that tell us? that only the christian god speaks to people in the US and Europe? Why is that? Why hasn't he "shown himself" to those in the mid-east? are they all doomed to hell?

I can't remember exactly who said it, but one believer said that we non-believers are taking a gamble with our eternal destiny of our soul by not believing. why is it so unfathomable that you are actually gambling with your soul by not following the buddhist god, or the native american gods, and so on and so forth?

you became a christian because of how you were brought up and/or the most popular god in your geographical location. nothing more. if you were born in the mid-east you would have become or been brought up a muslim; had you been born in china it's highly likely you would have been a buddhist, etc. this is one major factor of why I doubt the teachings of any religion, as they are divided by something man invented himself: borders.

redrock · January 2010

dpmay wrote:

i see. i too was raised catholic (so naturally i don't believe in god - isn't that the punchline? haha) and i agree, blind faith is something i can't have either. i believe that god exists, but i'm not certain and i wonder a lot about it. so much, in fact, that i spend time in threads like this - yeah. sometimes i wish i did have blind faith, maybe my life would be easier, but ultimately it wouldn't be worth it to me. the god i believe in gave me a brain, and the power of reason, and so i believe i am meant to question, and try to augment my faith with thought. not blind faith at all really.

Borderline agnostic?

Blind faith may make one's life easier... after all if you think that your path is set and 'someone' is taking care of things.

Questioning.... there is no room for questioning for 'true' christians (whatever that may be)- one accepts the word as it is (oops.. is that blind faith?). My daughter went to a church school in primary (nearest our home). Not quite 6 yet, she questioned certain 'things' with the visiting priest (this was around x-mas time). You know, the usual why this and why that of kids... Response? Believe and accept - it's the way it is. No need to question. Hmmmmm.......

dpmay · January 2010

Gern Blansten wrote:

dpmay wrote:

Gern Blansten wrote:

my life has no value to you....my dogs life has no value to you

our lives only have value to our families....not to invisible people

au contraire mon frere, your life does have value to me - at the risk of sounding like a creepy internet stalker weirdo - haha.

in fact, this is part of what i'm trying to say: why do people care about people they've never met, people they'll never see? we have a lot of evidence that this is true. tens (maybe hundreds) of millions raised for the people of haiti. why do so many people care about people they do not know, invisible people, as you say?

i have heard some argue that this is only because it gives the donor (in this specific example) a good, warm-fuzzy feeling inside, or something like that. or that evolution has caused us to care about each other because it strengthens the tribe. but that doesn't hold when we are talking about invisible people - actually, if i help someone outside my own tribe, i am reducing the resources available to my own, thus hurting myself. so why should i be so concerned about invisible people?

i believe it is because people are hard-wired to recognize that other people, even invisible people, have inherent value. and so, for me, the questions remains: whence cometh this value?

by invisible people I was referring to god...

evolution has nothing to do with charitable contributions....if I give $100 to Haiti my children are not affected at all except maybe their inheritance will be $100 less but assume I blew that $100 on lotto tickets or something....

I really don't follow your "value" discussion....I have a feeling it is related to the supernatural in some way which I do not see evidence of so I'm afraid I can't participate in that.....

my point was if I died tomorrow you would have no idea....you would forget about this discussion in a few days and never think of me again....therefore I certainly have no value to you

so i promise i'm not trying to trick you into admitting anything, or coming around to see it my way, or anything like that. what am i doing? i dunno - i like conversations like this just for the sake of them. maybe it's just mental masturbation, haha, but here we are...

i am just offering my belief that all humans have inherent value (all life, too, really) and that, by my observation, almost everyone lives as if they believe that is true. i personally believe that value comes from the fact that life was created by what i call god. i am curious (not judgementally so) to hear where non-god-believers say this value comes from. or, maybe, to refute that human life does have inherent value.

so i guess pretty much exactly what we're doing...

Gern Blansten · January 2010

dpmay wrote:

redrock wrote:

dpmay wrote:

and for 'follow the rules or be damned', well, what exactly 'follow the rules' means and what exactly 'damned' means is a huge matter of disagreement inside the christian community. another of my initial points - it's easy for non-god-believers to attack certain strains of christian thought, but not all christians think about these issues the same way..

Absolutely... but I think a lot of these responses are 'fuelled' by a more, how shall I say, 'fervent' believer in this thread. I've been raised a catholic... I know how/what religion can be. Been/am close to all kinds of different christians (best friend very practising, other very good friend a priest, etc.) but basic teachings are the same, the god is the same. OK... not all will see Jesus the same way, the holy trinity the same, etc. but still...blind faith in some almighty god is just something that I can't have. Good for those that do and feel that is what they need for their existence to have direction/value .

i see. i too was raised catholic (so naturally i don't believe in god - isn't that the punchline? haha) and i agree, blind faith is something i can't have either. i believe that god exists, but i'm not certain and i wonder a lot about it. so much, in fact, that i spend time in threads like this - yeah. sometimes i wish i did have blind faith, maybe my life would be easier, but ultimately it wouldn't be worth it to me. the god i believe in gave me a brain, and the power of reason, and so i believe i am meant to question, and try to augment my faith with thought. not blind faith at all really.

I used to be right where you are man....

My current belief is that we don't know if there is a god or not. BUT....if there is I refuse to believe that he gives a shit if I am christian/hindu/muslim/etc and he certainly doesn't require that I attend church, tithe, drink his blood, etc.

My morals are probably higher than most religious people and if I go to hell so be it....burn me.

dpmay · January 2010

redrock wrote:

dpmay wrote:

i see. i too was raised catholic (so naturally i don't believe in god - isn't that the punchline? haha) and i agree, blind faith is something i can't have either. i believe that god exists, but i'm not certain and i wonder a lot about it. so much, in fact, that i spend time in threads like this - yeah. sometimes i wish i did have blind faith, maybe my life would be easier, but ultimately it wouldn't be worth it to me. the god i believe in gave me a brain, and the power of reason, and so i believe i am meant to question, and try to augment my faith with thought. not blind faith at all really.

Borderline agnostic? Blind faith may make one's life easier... after all if you think that your path is set and 'someone' is taking care of things.

Questioning.... there is no room for questioning for 'true' christians (whatever that may be)- one accepts the word as it is (oops.. is that blind faith?). My daughter went to a church school in primary (nearest our home). Not quite 6 yet, she questioned certain 'things' with the visiting priest (this was around x-mas time). You know, the usual why this and why that of kids... Response? Believe and accept - it's the way it is. No need to question. Hmmmmm.......

am i borderline agnostic? maybe, but i don't think so. my faith just ebbs and flows, like most things in life.

and i think there IS room for questioning in "true" christianity, although maybe not in many (or most) specific churches. in fact, "true" christianity would have to be based on jesus and not any specific dogma, and the way i read the jesus stories, he was pretty hard on the religious establishment. i see no reason why he wouldn't question a lot of what has become the modern christian church.

Hugh Freaking Dillon · January 2010

Gern Blansten wrote:

My morals are probably higher than most religious people and if I go to hell so be it....burn me.

10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer

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