10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer

redrock

dpmay wrote:

and for 'follow the rules or be damned', well, what exactly 'follow the rules' means and what exactly 'damned' means is a huge matter of disagreement inside the christian community. another of my initial points - it's easy for non-god-believers to attack certain strains of christian thought, but not all christians think about these issues the same way..

Absolutely... but I think a lot of these responses are 'fuelled' by a more, how shall I say, 'fervent' believer in this thread. I've been raised a catholic... I know how/what religion can be. Been/am close to all kinds of different christians (best friend very practising, other very good friend a priest, etc.) but basic teachings are the same, the god is the same. OK... not all will see Jesus the same way, the holy trinity the same, etc. but still...blind faith in some almighty god is just something that I can't have. Good for those that do and feel that is what they need for their existence to have direction/value .

dpmay

EddieLedBetter wrote:

So you personally have read it front to back?

and ohbytheway, ELB, i want to say that even though we do not appear to agree on everything, we agree on the big stuff that actually matters to christians, and that i respect the strength of your convictions - from one christian to another.

Gern Blansten

dpmay wrote:

Gern Blansten wrote:

my life has no value to you....my dogs life has no value to you

our lives only have value to our families....not to invisible people

au contraire mon frere, your life does have value to me - at the risk of sounding like a creepy internet stalker weirdo - haha.

in fact, this is part of what i'm trying to say: why do people care about people they've never met, people they'll never see? we have a lot of evidence that this is true. tens (maybe hundreds) of millions raised for the people of haiti. why do so many people care about people they do not know, invisible people, as you say?

i have heard some argue that this is only because it gives the donor (in this specific example) a good, warm-fuzzy feeling inside, or something like that. or that evolution has caused us to care about each other because it strengthens the tribe. but that doesn't hold when we are talking about invisible people - actually, if i help someone outside my own tribe, i am reducing the resources available to my own, thus hurting myself. so why should i be so concerned about invisible people?

i believe it is because people are hard-wired to recognize that other people, even invisible people, have inherent value. and so, for me, the questions remains: whence cometh this value?

by invisible people I was referring to god...

evolution has nothing to do with charitable contributions....if I give $100 to Haiti my children are not affected at all except maybe their inheritance will be $100 less but assume I blew that $100 on lotto tickets or something....

I really don't follow your "value" discussion....I have a feeling it is related to the supernatural in some way which I do not see evidence of so I'm afraid I can't participate in that.....

my point was if I died tomorrow you would have no idea....you would forget about this discussion in a few days and never think of me again....therefore I certainly have no value to you

dpmay

redrock wrote:

dpmay wrote:

and for 'follow the rules or be damned', well, what exactly 'follow the rules' means and what exactly 'damned' means is a huge matter of disagreement inside the christian community. another of my initial points - it's easy for non-god-believers to attack certain strains of christian thought, but not all christians think about these issues the same way..

Absolutely... but I think a lot of these responses are 'fuelled' by a more, how shall I say, 'fervent' believer in this thread. I've been raised a catholic... I know how/what religion can be. Been/am close to all kinds of different christians (best friend very practising, other very good friend a priest, etc.) but basic teachings are the same, the god is the same. OK... not all will see Jesus the same way, the holy trinity the same, etc. but still...blind faith in some almighty god is just something that I can't have. Good for those that do and feel that is what they need for their existence to have direction/value .

i see. i too was raised catholic (so naturally i don't believe in god - isn't that the punchline? haha) and i agree, blind faith is something i can't have either. i believe that god exists, but i'm not certain and i wonder a lot about it. so much, in fact, that i spend time in threads like this - yeah. sometimes i wish i did have blind faith, maybe my life would be easier, but ultimately it wouldn't be worth it to me. the god i believe in gave me a brain, and the power of reason, and so i believe i am meant to question, and try to augment my faith with thought. not blind faith at all really.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

one thing that may or may not have been touched upon, is that faith seems to be ruled specifically by geography. What does that tell us? that only the christian god speaks to people in the US and Europe? Why is that? Why hasn't he "shown himself" to those in the mid-east? are they all doomed to hell?

I can't remember exactly who said it, but one believer said that we non-believers are taking a gamble with our eternal destiny of our soul by not believing. why is it so unfathomable that you are actually gambling with your soul by not following the buddhist god, or the native american gods, and so on and so forth?

you became a christian because of how you were brought up and/or the most popular god in your geographical location. nothing more. if you were born in the mid-east you would have become or been brought up a muslim; had you been born in china it's highly likely you would have been a buddhist, etc. this is one major factor of why I doubt the teachings of any religion, as they are divided by something man invented himself: borders.

redrock

dpmay wrote:

i see. i too was raised catholic (so naturally i don't believe in god - isn't that the punchline? haha) and i agree, blind faith is something i can't have either. i believe that god exists, but i'm not certain and i wonder a lot about it. so much, in fact, that i spend time in threads like this - yeah. sometimes i wish i did have blind faith, maybe my life would be easier, but ultimately it wouldn't be worth it to me. the god i believe in gave me a brain, and the power of reason, and so i believe i am meant to question, and try to augment my faith with thought. not blind faith at all really.

Borderline agnostic? Blind faith may make one's life easier... after all if you think that your path is set and 'someone' is taking care of things.

Questioning.... there is no room for questioning for 'true' christians (whatever that may be)- one accepts the word as it is (oops.. is that blind faith?). My daughter went to a church school in primary (nearest our home). Not quite 6 yet, she questioned certain 'things' with the visiting priest (this was around x-mas time). You know, the usual why this and why that of kids... Response? Believe and accept - it's the way it is. No need to question. Hmmmmm.......

dpmay

Gern Blansten wrote:

dpmay wrote:

Gern Blansten wrote:

my life has no value to you....my dogs life has no value to you

our lives only have value to our families....not to invisible people

au contraire mon frere, your life does have value to me - at the risk of sounding like a creepy internet stalker weirdo - haha.

in fact, this is part of what i'm trying to say: why do people care about people they've never met, people they'll never see? we have a lot of evidence that this is true. tens (maybe hundreds) of millions raised for the people of haiti. why do so many people care about people they do not know, invisible people, as you say?

i have heard some argue that this is only because it gives the donor (in this specific example) a good, warm-fuzzy feeling inside, or something like that. or that evolution has caused us to care about each other because it strengthens the tribe. but that doesn't hold when we are talking about invisible people - actually, if i help someone outside my own tribe, i am reducing the resources available to my own, thus hurting myself. so why should i be so concerned about invisible people?

i believe it is because people are hard-wired to recognize that other people, even invisible people, have inherent value. and so, for me, the questions remains: whence cometh this value?

by invisible people I was referring to god...

evolution has nothing to do with charitable contributions....if I give $100 to Haiti my children are not affected at all except maybe their inheritance will be $100 less but assume I blew that $100 on lotto tickets or something....

I really don't follow your "value" discussion....I have a feeling it is related to the supernatural in some way which I do not see evidence of so I'm afraid I can't participate in that.....

my point was if I died tomorrow you would have no idea....you would forget about this discussion in a few days and never think of me again....therefore I certainly have no value to you

so i promise i'm not trying to trick you into admitting anything, or coming around to see it my way, or anything like that. what am i doing? i dunno - i like conversations like this just for the sake of them. maybe it's just mental masturbation, haha, but here we are...

i am just offering my belief that all humans have inherent value (all life, too, really) and that, by my observation, almost everyone lives as if they believe that is true. i personally believe that value comes from the fact that life was created by what i call god. i am curious (not judgementally so) to hear where non-god-believers say this value comes from. or, maybe, to refute that human life does have inherent value.

so i guess pretty much exactly what we're doing...

Gern Blansten

dpmay wrote:

redrock wrote:

dpmay wrote:

and for 'follow the rules or be damned', well, what exactly 'follow the rules' means and what exactly 'damned' means is a huge matter of disagreement inside the christian community. another of my initial points - it's easy for non-god-believers to attack certain strains of christian thought, but not all christians think about these issues the same way..

Absolutely... but I think a lot of these responses are 'fuelled' by a more, how shall I say, 'fervent' believer in this thread. I've been raised a catholic... I know how/what religion can be. Been/am close to all kinds of different christians (best friend very practising, other very good friend a priest, etc.) but basic teachings are the same, the god is the same. OK... not all will see Jesus the same way, the holy trinity the same, etc. but still...blind faith in some almighty god is just something that I can't have. Good for those that do and feel that is what they need for their existence to have direction/value .

i see. i too was raised catholic (so naturally i don't believe in god - isn't that the punchline? haha) and i agree, blind faith is something i can't have either. i believe that god exists, but i'm not certain and i wonder a lot about it. so much, in fact, that i spend time in threads like this - yeah. sometimes i wish i did have blind faith, maybe my life would be easier, but ultimately it wouldn't be worth it to me. the god i believe in gave me a brain, and the power of reason, and so i believe i am meant to question, and try to augment my faith with thought. not blind faith at all really.

I used to be right where you are man....

My current belief is that we don't know if there is a god or not. BUT....if there is I refuse to believe that he gives a shit if I am christian/hindu/muslim/etc and he certainly doesn't require that I attend church, tithe, drink his blood, etc.

My morals are probably higher than most religious people and if I go to hell so be it....burn me.

dpmay

redrock wrote:

dpmay wrote:

i see. i too was raised catholic (so naturally i don't believe in god - isn't that the punchline? haha) and i agree, blind faith is something i can't have either. i believe that god exists, but i'm not certain and i wonder a lot about it. so much, in fact, that i spend time in threads like this - yeah. sometimes i wish i did have blind faith, maybe my life would be easier, but ultimately it wouldn't be worth it to me. the god i believe in gave me a brain, and the power of reason, and so i believe i am meant to question, and try to augment my faith with thought. not blind faith at all really.

Borderline agnostic? Blind faith may make one's life easier... after all if you think that your path is set and 'someone' is taking care of things.

Questioning.... there is no room for questioning for 'true' christians (whatever that may be)- one accepts the word as it is (oops.. is that blind faith?). My daughter went to a church school in primary (nearest our home). Not quite 6 yet, she questioned certain 'things' with the visiting priest (this was around x-mas time). You know, the usual why this and why that of kids... Response? Believe and accept - it's the way it is. No need to question. Hmmmmm.......

am i borderline agnostic? maybe, but i don't think so. my faith just ebbs and flows, like most things in life.

and i think there IS room for questioning in "true" christianity, although maybe not in many (or most) specific churches. in fact, "true" christianity would have to be based on jesus and not any specific dogma, and the way i read the jesus stories, he was pretty hard on the religious establishment. i see no reason why he wouldn't question a lot of what has become the modern christian church.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

Gern Blansten wrote:

My morals are probably higher than most religious people and if I go to hell so be it....burn me.

Gern Blansten

dpmay wrote:

so i promise i'm not trying to trick you into admitting anything, or coming around to see it my way, or anything like that. what am i doing? i dunno - i like conversations like this just for the sake of them. maybe it's just mental masturbation, haha, but here we are...

i am just offering my belief that all humans have inherent value (all life, too, really) and that, by my observation, almost everyone lives as if they believe that is true. i personally believe that value comes from the fact that life was created by what i call god. i am curious (not judgementally so) to hear where non-god-believers say this value comes from. or, maybe, to refute that human life does have inherent value.

so i guess pretty much exactly what we're doing...

I believe that we began from primordial soup and evolved to homo sapiens. We are animals just like any other but what sets us apart is our brain.

I have studied astronomy/anthropology/philosophy/religion, etc. in order to determine if my upbringing as a Methodist had any merit....I determined that it did not.

I do not believe in anything supernatural....I have always said that if someone can show me a ghost I will probably completely change my religious beliefs because that would be proof that the supernatural exists.

I don't believe anyone that states they have seen a ghost any more than I believe someone who says they spoke to god or had any communication with god.

Gern Blansten

Johnny Sitar wrote:

one thing that may or may not have been touched upon, is that faith seems to be ruled specifically by geography. What does that tell us? that only the christian god speaks to people in the US and Europe? Why is that? Why hasn't he "shown himself" to those in the mid-east? are they all doomed to hell?

I can't remember exactly who said it, but one believer said that we non-believers are taking a gamble with our eternal destiny of our soul by not believing. why is it so unfathomable that you are actually gambling with your soul by not following the buddhist god, or the native american gods, and so on and so forth?

you became a christian because of how you were brought up and/or the most popular god in your geographical location. nothing more. if you were born in the mid-east you would have become or been brought up a muslim; had you been born in china it's highly likely you would have been a buddhist, etc. this is one major factor of why I doubt the teachings of any religion, as they are divided by something man invented himself: borders.

exactly....it's examples like this that should make any believer stop and think

that did it for me....

Some of my first questions actually related to "why do we go to church"....or..."Why does god require that we go to church".....then I discovered that we were all going to hell because we went to church on sunday rather than saturday and that we should all stone our minister to death because he was working on sunday

dpmay

Johnny Sitar wrote:

one thing that may or may not have been touched upon, is that faith seems to be ruled specifically by geography. What does that tell us? that only the christian god speaks to people in the US and Europe? Why is that? Why hasn't he "shown himself" to those in the mid-east? are they all doomed to hell?

I can't remember exactly who said it, but one believer said that we non-believers are taking a gamble with our eternal destiny of our soul by not believing. why is it so unfathomable that you are actually gambling with your soul by not following the buddhist god, or the native american gods, and so on and so forth?

you became a christian because of how you were brought up and/or the most popular god in your geographical location. nothing more. if you were born in the mid-east you would have become or been brought up a muslim; had you been born in china it's highly likely you would have been a buddhist, etc. this is one major factor of why I doubt the teachings of any religion, as they are divided by something man invented himself: borders.

good points, to be sure. the fact of the matter is that the christian faith is growing more rapidly in africa than anywhere else on the planet. or at least as rapidly. so it's not JUST north america and europe.

but your point is still valid. one's geographic location and upbringing does hugely affect what one believes. i acknowledge this. that is a main part of the reason you'll never see me say that gandhi, for example, is gonna burn in hell. there is at least some room for interpretation in the christian faith about what it really means to follow god.

and while you may doubt the validity or ultimate truth of any religion, i doubt you really doubt all of the actual teachings of all religions. even if you think they're all founded on bullshit, don't some of them still have some good things to say? judge not lest ye be judged. didn't you quote that above - or maybe it was someone else. the hindu/buddhist conception of karma, a sort of getting what you give. i bet you think that's a decent idea - i do.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

Gern Blansten wrote:

We are animals just like any other but what sets us apart is our brain.

this is one thing that bothers me. many, most, if not all, christians believe that animals have no souls hence they don't go to heaven, etc. scientists have recently decided that dolphins can be categorized as non-human people, which means they emote, feel, care, have sex for pleasure, and teach each other. Dolphins that have been raised in captivity that are released and join their school or whatever have been seen teaching their fellow dolphins how to do that "swim standing on your back fin" thing. that's unheard of in the animal kingdom.

I think dolphins have more soul than some humans I know.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

dpmay wrote:

Johnny Sitar wrote:

one thing that may or may not have been touched upon, is that faith seems to be ruled specifically by geography. What does that tell us? that only the christian god speaks to people in the US and Europe? Why is that? Why hasn't he "shown himself" to those in the mid-east? are they all doomed to hell?

I can't remember exactly who said it, but one believer said that we non-believers are taking a gamble with our eternal destiny of our soul by not believing. why is it so unfathomable that you are actually gambling with your soul by not following the buddhist god, or the native american gods, and so on and so forth?

you became a christian because of how you were brought up and/or the most popular god in your geographical location. nothing more. if you were born in the mid-east you would have become or been brought up a muslim; had you been born in china it's highly likely you would have been a buddhist, etc. this is one major factor of why I doubt the teachings of any religion, as they are divided by something man invented himself: borders.

good points, to be sure. the fact of the matter is that the christian faith is growing more rapidly in africa than anywhere else on the planet. or at least as rapidly. so it's not JUST north america and europe.

but your point is still valid. one's geographic location and upbringing does hugely affect what one believes. i acknowledge this. that is a main part of the reason you'll never see me say that gandhi, for example, is gonna burn in hell. there is at least some room for interpretation in the christian faith about what it really means to follow god.

and while you may doubt the validity or ultimate truth of any religion, i doubt you really doubt all of the actual teachings of all religions. even if you think they're all founded on bullshit, don't some of them still have some good things to say? judge not lest ye be judged. didn't you quote that above - or maybe it was someone else. the hindu/buddhist conception of karma, a sort of getting what you give. i bet you think that's a decent idea - i do.

ok, saying "doubt the teachings of any religion" was a poor way to state it. I do believe that the fundamental core values of many religions are the basis for morality, human laws, etc, so of course those are valuable. But I don't think those came from any god, I think those came from man and he wrote them down as the words of their god as a way to control the people; keep the peace, if you will.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

dpmay wrote:

the fact of the matter is that the christian faith is growing more rapidly in africa than anywhere else on the planet. or at least as rapidly. so it's not JUST north america and europe.

yes, saying NA and Europe were just examples. Obviously, christianity is all over the world. But why do you think Africa's christian following is growing? Not only globalization, but many of those charities that set up shop there have a christian agenda. They take your money and teach the people they are helping about christ in exchange for food and clothing.

Kinda made me sick when I realized it.

Gern Blansten

dpmay wrote:

Johnny Sitar wrote:

one thing that may or may not have been touched upon, is that faith seems to be ruled specifically by geography. What does that tell us? that only the christian god speaks to people in the US and Europe? Why is that? Why hasn't he "shown himself" to those in the mid-east? are they all doomed to hell?

I can't remember exactly who said it, but one believer said that we non-believers are taking a gamble with our eternal destiny of our soul by not believing. why is it so unfathomable that you are actually gambling with your soul by not following the buddhist god, or the native american gods, and so on and so forth?

you became a christian because of how you were brought up and/or the most popular god in your geographical location. nothing more. if you were born in the mid-east you would have become or been brought up a muslim; had you been born in china it's highly likely you would have been a buddhist, etc. this is one major factor of why I doubt the teachings of any religion, as they are divided by something man invented himself: borders.

good points, to be sure. the fact of the matter is that the christian faith is growing more rapidly in africa than anywhere else on the planet. or at least as rapidly. so it's not JUST north america and europe.

but your point is still valid. one's geographic location and upbringing does hugely affect what one believes. i acknowledge this. that is a main part of the reason you'll never see me say that gandhi, for example, is gonna burn in hell. there is at least some room for interpretation in the christian faith about what it really means to follow god.

and while you may doubt the validity or ultimate truth of any religion, i doubt you really doubt all of the actual teachings of all religions. even if you think they're all founded on bullshit, don't some of them still have some good things to say? judge not lest ye be judged. didn't you quote that above - or maybe it was someone else. the hindu/buddhist conception of karma, a sort of getting what you give. i bet you think that's a decent idea - i do.

but in order to say that Gandhi won't burn in hell you are really abandoning the teachings of the bible.

that is probably another area that made me question Christianity....it has been changed to suit the masses...true christianity means that you are standing on a street corner telling us all that we are going to hell...and you would be right

those people are nuts but at least they follow what they believe to the "T"

Gern Blansten

Johnny Sitar wrote:

dpmay wrote:

the fact of the matter is that the christian faith is growing more rapidly in africa than anywhere else on the planet. or at least as rapidly. so it's not JUST north america and europe.

yes, saying NA and Europe were just examples. Obviously, christianity is all over the world. But why do you think Africa's christian following is growing? Not only globalization, but many of those charities that set up shop there have a christian agenda. They take your money and teach the people they are helping about christ in exchange for food and clothing.

Kinda made me sick when I realized it.

missionaries spreading the word.....I have a facebook friend that goes to S America every year and helps build water wells, etc. Noble cause but they also hand out bibles and build churches.

I mean come on....there are places in the USA that need that kind of attention

dpmay

Gern Blansten wrote:

dpmay wrote:

so i promise i'm not trying to trick you into admitting anything, or coming around to see it my way, or anything like that. what am i doing? i dunno - i like conversations like this just for the sake of them. maybe it's just mental masturbation, haha, but here we are...

i am just offering my belief that all humans have inherent value (all life, too, really) and that, by my observation, almost everyone lives as if they believe that is true. i personally believe that value comes from the fact that life was created by what i call god. i am curious (not judgementally so) to hear where non-god-believers say this value comes from. or, maybe, to refute that human life does have inherent value.

so i guess pretty much exactly what we're doing...

I believe that we began from primordial soup and evolved to homo sapiens. We are animals just like any other but what sets us apart is our brain.

I have studied astronomy/anthropology/philosophy/religion, etc. in order to determine if my upbringing as a Methodist had any merit....I determined that it did not.

I do not believe in anything supernatural....I have always said that if someone can show me a ghost I will probably completely change my religious beliefs because that would be proof that the supernatural exists.

I don't believe anyone that states they have seen a ghost any more than I believe someone who says they spoke to god or had any communication with god.

all of these are valid points, and defensable. i don't disagree that we are animals. this doesn't mean god cannot exist. i have been on record in this thread as believing that animal life does have value. can animals go to heaven? i don't know, maybe.

belief in the supernatural, yeah, that's what belief in god pretty much is. and i'm ok with that. i believe science, i trust in science, (hell i even think evolution is valid - heresy!) - i just think it has it's limits as a worldview.

Gern Blansten wrote:

My morals are probably higher than most religious people...

that may be true, and i don't say what follows as a personal insult, because i have enjoyed our conversation and respect you, but that sounds pretty arrogant. wasn't that one of your main problems with god-believers?

Gern Blansten wrote:

exactly....it's examples like this that should make any believer stop and think

that did it for me....

Some of my first questions actually related to "why do we go to church"....or..."Why does god require that we go to church".....then I discovered that we were all going to hell because we went to church on sunday rather than saturday and that we should all stone our minister to death because he was working on sunday

questions like that (like all of these) definitely do make me think. and i think it's really too bad that some (or most or all, whatev) churches put so much emphasis on things like when you go to church, or even if you do, that they can seem to lose sight of what being christian really is. to me, it's not about any specific dogma.

Gern Blansten

Johnny Sitar wrote:

Gern Blansten wrote:

We are animals just like any other but what sets us apart is our brain.

this is one thing that bothers me. many, most, if not all, christians believe that animals have no souls hence they don't go to heaven, etc. scientists have recently decided that dolphins can be categorized as non-human people, which means they emote, feel, care, have sex for pleasure, and teach each other. Dolphins that have been raised in captivity that are released and join their school or whatever have been seen teaching their fellow dolphins how to do that "swim standing on your back fin" thing. that's unheard of in the animal kingdom.

I think dolphins have more soul than some humans I know.

agreed...

I was always amazed by gorillas....the non verbal communication they use like eye contact, hand gestures, etc.

no they can't make a model airplane but it is still amazing

dpmay

Gern Blansten wrote:

but in order to say that Gandhi won't burn in hell you are really abandoning the teachings of the bible.

that is probably another area that made me question Christianity....it has been changed to suit the masses...true christianity means that you are standing on a street corner telling us all that we are going to hell...and you would be right

those people are nuts but at least they follow what they believe to the "T"

OK, fair point. i am going to have to get back to you on this one becasue the specific writing of what some christians believe about this are at my house, and i am at work (which reminds me i need to stop this nonsense and do some work - i am defending my dissertation in less than two weeks!). but i am certain that there is room for various biblical interpretations inside of christianity.

dpmay

as for missionaries, well, that is an entirely different topic, right? is it good to help people? sure. is it good to demand something in return? no. is it ok to help people and tell them what are the underlying principles as to why you are helping them? i don't see why not. but, full disclosure, i don't really know much of anything about christian missionary work.

markin ball

Dpmay, I am directing this to you if you don't mind.

I understand your specific point that god is possible...why does Christianity get the nod over every other religion?

dpmay

dpmay wrote:

Gern Blansten wrote:

but in order to say that Gandhi won't burn in hell you are really abandoning the teachings of the bible.

that is probably another area that made me question Christianity....it has been changed to suit the masses...true christianity means that you are standing on a street corner telling us all that we are going to hell...and you would be right

those people are nuts but at least they follow what they believe to the "T"

OK, fair point. i am going to have to get back to you on this one becasue the specific writing of what some christians believe about this are at my house, and i am at work (which reminds me i need to stop this nonsense and do some work - i am defending my dissertation in less than two weeks!). but i am certain that there is room for various biblical interpretations inside of christianity.

alright, i don't want to turn this thread into the footnotes for a theology paper, but i do want to share with you some of what i have read regarding this issue. namely, must one be explicitly christian to attain the salvation christians believe in?

- the current catechism of the catholic church (a sort of detailed description of all aspects of the catholic faith) says this: "the Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as 'a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at lenght have life.'" (the quote is from the lumen gentium, one of the documents to come from vatican II).

- in 1863, pope pius declared pesons invincibly ignorant of the christian religion who observed the natural law and were ready to obey god would be able to attain eternal life, thanks to the working of divine grace within them.

- in 1943, pius xii indicated in his mystici corporis, that there are actually two ways of belonging to the church: in actual fact (in re) or by desire (in voto). those belonging to the church in voto were ordered to the church by the dynamism of grace itself, which related them to the church in a way that they were in some sense in it.

- cardinal cushing of boston in a 1949 letter declared that one could belong to the church not only by actual membership, but also by an even unconcious desire.

- some texts conceived at vatican II in 1964 stated that god's universal salvic will means that he gives non-christians, including even athiests, sufficient help to be saved.

- in 2005, pope benedict said "Whoever seeks peace and the good of the community with a pure conscience, and keeps alive the desire for the transcendent, will be saved even if he lacks biblical faith."

(most of these paraphrasing come from a really interesing paper from avery cardinal dulles called 'who can be saved?').

in any case, i am not here to defend any of these positions. i just offer them as evidence that, even within the christian community, not everyone believes that, to put it one way, true christianity is standing on a street corner telling everyone they're going to hell.

dpmay

markin ball wrote:

Dpmay, I am directing this to you if you don't mind.

I understand your specific point that god is possible...why does Christianity get the nod over every other religion?

OK, thank you for asking that. i will answer openly and honestly, and if anyone wants to challenge, doubt, mock or laugh, that's fine. i do not claim that any of what follows should be obvious to everyone, is undoubtedly true, or must in any way be accepted. it's just what i personally believe.

i am a christian, and of course i would be foolish and ignorant not to admit that part of that is because i was born where and when i was, and that my parents are christian. but is that really so bad? the dalai lama, addressing westerners who would consider becomming buddhist, suggests that a faith tradition more relevent to one's own cultural traditions would be more meaningful. as such, (and remember, we are not arguing about whether god is real or not -but rather why i choose to follow a christian conception of god) a christian perspective of god works well for me, in the context of my larger cultural and familial milieus.

but that is not all of it. i have a line of reasoning which leads me to a christian conception of god. (and remember, this is just my own personal faith - not a declaration of absolute truth.) i believe a creator god exists. as such, i believe it stands to reason that a relationship between the creator (god) and the creation (me) is something that we would both want. but how am i to, shall we say, achieve this relationship? well, its pretty obvious (to me) that i can't do this on this earth, the way i am now. part of that inability is my own extremely limited ability at understanding, being stuck in this time and space - and another of it is how fucked up the world is, and, frankly, how inadequate i am compared to a creator god. people, myself included, have kind of taken the free will that i believe god gave them (and me) and really made things, well, bad. mostly. so, in order for me to establish a meaningful relationship with the creator god i believe in, i need some kind of connection, a bridge or go-between. and that's pretty much exactly what christians believe jesus is. a connection to achieve a relationship with a creator god that bridges the gap between the highly uncomprehensible nature of god and my own somewhat deficient self. all the christian (i) need do is acknowledge the need for the bridge of jesus.

that's about it. really pretty traditional. to me, pretty much everything else is an academic detail that, while fun to argue about, is not really relevent from a christian point of view.

so, take what you will out of that. it's really just my own personal faith rationale.

(and thanks for asking, again. i think it is good to have to actually write down what you believe and why. at least i think it helped me.)

markin ball

dpmay wrote:

markin ball wrote:

Dpmay, I am directing this to you if you don't mind.

I understand your specific point that god is possible...why does Christianity get the nod over every other religion?

OK, thank you for asking that. i will answer openly and honestly, and if anyone wants to challenge, doubt, mock or laugh, that's fine. i do not claim that any of what follows should be obvious to everyone, is undoubtedly true, or must in any way be accepted. it's just what i personally believe.

i am a christian, and of course i would be foolish and ignorant not to admit that part of that is because i was born where and when i was, and that my parents are christian. but is that really so bad? the dalai lama, addressing westerners who would consider becomming buddhist, suggests that a faith tradition more relevent to one's own cultural traditions would be more meaningful. as such, (and remember, we are not arguing about whether god is real or not -but rather why i choose to follow a christian conception of god) a christian perspective of god works well for me, in the context of my larger cultural and familial milieus.

but that is not all of it. i have a line of reasoning which leads me to a christian conception of god. (and remember, this is just my own personal faith - not a declaration of absolute truth.) i believe a creator god exists. as such, i believe it stands to reason that a relationship between the creator (god) and the creation (me) is something that we would both want. but how am i to, shall we say, achieve this relationship? well, its pretty obvious (to me) that i can't do this on this earth, the way i am now. part of that inability is my own extremely limited ability at understanding, being stuck in this time and space - and another of it is how fucked up the world is, and, frankly, how inadequate i am compared to a creator god. people, myself included, have kind of taken the free will that i believe god gave them (and me) and really made things, well, bad. mostly. so, in order for me to establish a meaningful relationship with the creator god i believe in, i need some kind of connection, a bridge or go-between. and that's pretty much exactly what christians believe jesus is. a connection to achieve a relationship with a creator god that bridges the gap between the highly uncomprehensible nature of god and my own somewhat deficient self. all the christian (i) need do is acknowledge the need for the bridge of jesus.

that's about it. really pretty traditional. to me, pretty much everything else is an academic detail that, while fun to argue about, is not really relevent from a christian point of view.

so, take what you will out of that. it's really just my own personal faith rationale.

(and thanks for asking, again. i think it is good to have to actually write down what you believe and why. at least i think it helped me.)

Thank you.

Gern Blansten

dpmay wrote:

dpmay wrote:

Gern Blansten wrote:

but in order to say that Gandhi won't burn in hell you are really abandoning the teachings of the bible.

that is probably another area that made me question Christianity....it has been changed to suit the masses...true christianity means that you are standing on a street corner telling us all that we are going to hell...and you would be right

those people are nuts but at least they follow what they believe to the "T"

OK, fair point. i am going to have to get back to you on this one becasue the specific writing of what some christians believe about this are at my house, and i am at work (which reminds me i need to stop this nonsense and do some work - i am defending my dissertation in less than two weeks!). but i am certain that there is room for various biblical interpretations inside of christianity.

alright, i don't want to turn this thread into the footnotes for a theology paper, but i do want to share with you some of what i have read regarding this issue. namely, must one be explicitly christian to attain the salvation christians believe in?

- the current catechism of the catholic church (a sort of detailed description of all aspects of the catholic faith) says this: "the Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as 'a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at lenght have life.'" (the quote is from the lumen gentium, one of the documents to come from vatican II).

- in 1863, pope pius declared pesons invincibly ignorant of the christian religion who observed the natural law and were ready to obey god would be able to attain eternal life, thanks to the working of divine grace within them.

- in 1943, pius xii indicated in his mystici corporis, that there are actually two ways of belonging to the church: in actual fact (in re) or by desire (in voto). those belonging to the church in voto were ordered to the church by the dynamism of grace itself, which related them to the church in a way that they were in some sense in it.

- cardinal cushing of boston in a 1949 letter declared that one could belong to the church not only by actual membership, but also by an even unconcious desire.

- some texts conceived at vatican II in 1964 stated that god's universal salvic will means that he gives non-christians, including even athiests, sufficient help to be saved.

- in 2005, pope benedict said "Whoever seeks peace and the good of the community with a pure conscience, and keeps alive the desire for the transcendent, will be saved even if he lacks biblical faith."

(most of these paraphrasing come from a really interesing paper from avery cardinal dulles called 'who can be saved?').

in any case, i am not here to defend any of these positions. i just offer them as evidence that, even within the christian community, not everyone believes that, to put it one way, true christianity is standing on a street corner telling everyone they're going to hell.

but should they?

if you grew up on a deserted island and a bible dropped from the clouds wouldn't you be a true fundamentalist?

The Catholics have made religion very convenient for themselves....I'm more likely to support the fundy's

Gern Blansten

dpmay wrote:

markin ball wrote:

Dpmay, I am directing this to you if you don't mind.

I understand your specific point that god is possible...why does Christianity get the nod over every other religion?

OK, thank you for asking that. i will answer openly and honestly, and if anyone wants to challenge, doubt, mock or laugh, that's fine. i do not claim that any of what follows should be obvious to everyone, is undoubtedly true, or must in any way be accepted. it's just what i personally believe.

i am a christian, and of course i would be foolish and ignorant not to admit that part of that is because i was born where and when i was, and that my parents are christian. but is that really so bad? the dalai lama, addressing westerners who would consider becomming buddhist, suggests that a faith tradition more relevent to one's own cultural traditions would be more meaningful. as such, (and remember, we are not arguing about whether god is real or not -but rather why i choose to follow a christian conception of god) a christian perspective of god works well for me, in the context of my larger cultural and familial milieus.

but that is not all of it. i have a line of reasoning which leads me to a christian conception of god. (and remember, this is just my own personal faith - not a declaration of absolute truth.) i believe a creator god exists. as such, i believe it stands to reason that a relationship between the creator (god) and the creation (me) is something that we would both want. but how am i to, shall we say, achieve this relationship? well, its pretty obvious (to me) that i can't do this on this earth, the way i am now. part of that inability is my own extremely limited ability at understanding, being stuck in this time and space - and another of it is how fucked up the world is, and, frankly, how inadequate i am compared to a creator god. people, myself included, have kind of taken the free will that i believe god gave them (and me) and really made things, well, bad. mostly. so, in order for me to establish a meaningful relationship with the creator god i believe in, i need some kind of connection, a bridge or go-between. and that's pretty much exactly what christians believe jesus is. a connection to achieve a relationship with a creator god that bridges the gap between the highly uncomprehensible nature of god and my own somewhat deficient self. all the christian (i) need do is acknowledge the need for the bridge of jesus.

that's about it. really pretty traditional. to me, pretty much everything else is an academic detail that, while fun to argue about, is not really relevent from a christian point of view.

so, take what you will out of that. it's really just my own personal faith rationale.

(and thanks for asking, again. i think it is good to have to actually write down what you believe and why. at least i think it helped me.)

But does it bother you that the story of Jesus appears to be adapted from other religions? Have you ever read about Mithra and Vishnu? The similarities are striking. And remember....they used to claim that Caesar was born of a virgin so that was a very prevalent thread at the time.

My journey to non-belief was a chipping away process....chipping away at jesus was probably my last piece

One thing that amazed me was discovery the number of writers that existed at that time....they would keep diaries about their day to day lives...what they ate, what they did in their daily lives, etc....the question would be why weren't these people writing about this Jesus guy who was in the area performing all these miracles?

why did it take decades for the gospels to begin being written? why weren't they madly jotting down all these stories and spreading them around the region?

that was big for me

Hugh Freaking Dillon

Gern Blansten wrote:

dpmay wrote:

markin ball wrote:

Dpmay, I am directing this to you if you don't mind.

I understand your specific point that god is possible...why does Christianity get the nod over every other religion?

OK, thank you for asking that. i will answer openly and honestly, and if anyone wants to challenge, doubt, mock or laugh, that's fine. i do not claim that any of what follows should be obvious to everyone, is undoubtedly true, or must in any way be accepted. it's just what i personally believe.

i am a christian, and of course i would be foolish and ignorant not to admit that part of that is because i was born where and when i was, and that my parents are christian. but is that really so bad? the dalai lama, addressing westerners who would consider becomming buddhist, suggests that a faith tradition more relevent to one's own cultural traditions would be more meaningful. as such, (and remember, we are not arguing about whether god is real or not -but rather why i choose to follow a christian conception of god) a christian perspective of god works well for me, in the context of my larger cultural and familial milieus.

but that is not all of it. i have a line of reasoning which leads me to a christian conception of god. (and remember, this is just my own personal faith - not a declaration of absolute truth.) i believe a creator god exists. as such, i believe it stands to reason that a relationship between the creator (god) and the creation (me) is something that we would both want. but how am i to, shall we say, achieve this relationship? well, its pretty obvious (to me) that i can't do this on this earth, the way i am now. part of that inability is my own extremely limited ability at understanding, being stuck in this time and space - and another of it is how fucked up the world is, and, frankly, how inadequate i am compared to a creator god. people, myself included, have kind of taken the free will that i believe god gave them (and me) and really made things, well, bad. mostly. so, in order for me to establish a meaningful relationship with the creator god i believe in, i need some kind of connection, a bridge or go-between. and that's pretty much exactly what christians believe jesus is. a connection to achieve a relationship with a creator god that bridges the gap between the highly uncomprehensible nature of god and my own somewhat deficient self. all the christian (i) need do is acknowledge the need for the bridge of jesus.

that's about it. really pretty traditional. to me, pretty much everything else is an academic detail that, while fun to argue about, is not really relevent from a christian point of view.

so, take what you will out of that. it's really just my own personal faith rationale.

(and thanks for asking, again. i think it is good to have to actually write down what you believe and why. at least i think it helped me.)

But does it bother you that the story of Jesus appears to be adapted from other religions? Have you ever read about Mithra and Vishnu? The similarities are striking. And remember....they used to claim that Caesar was born of a virgin so that was a very prevalent thread at the time.

My journey to non-belief was a chipping away process....chipping away at jesus was probably my last piece

One thing that amazed me was discovery the number of writers that existed at that time....they would keep diaries about their day to day lives...what they ate, what they did in their daily lives, etc....the question would be why weren't these people writing about this Jesus guy who was in the area performing all these miracles?

why did it take decades for the gospels to begin being written? why weren't they madly jotting down all these stories and spreading them around the region?

that was big for me

not that I need further convincing, but wow, I didn't know the stuff you just mentioned. I'm going to have to do some more reading. If this thread has done anything, it's re-ignited my interest in the subject.

Gern Blansten

yeah that's why I have such a hard time with this because I know these people haven't dug that deep....once you start discovering these things it's kind of a no brainer

If you haven't read "Losing Faith in Faith" by Dan Barker I would highly recommend it. He was an evangelist that became an atheist. He is co-President of the Freedom from Religion Foundation

www.ffrf.org