You have to look at the foundation of how Muhammad spread his religion. People weren’t buying it until he started his conquest. War spread his religion. Love and selflessness spread Christ’s. This sounds more like a loving God to me than all other teachings.
remember the Crusades?
Everything not forbidden is compulsory and eveything not compulsory is forbidden. You are free... free to do what the government says you can do.
The Crusades began over trying to get the land back that muslims had come to occupy, not to further Christ's teachings. This whole event disagrees with what He taught. Flaws of men not God. Salem witch trials were also against what Christ taught. Once again flaws of men not God. So we can agree that men are sinful and evil, christians and non believers alike.
Love and selflessness spread Christ’s. This sounds more like a loving God to me than all other teachings.
And Crusades... And conquering other nations with missionaries... And ostracizing jews...
Or are we going to forget that?
Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V
The Crusades began over trying to get the land back that muslims had come to occupy, not to further Christ's teachings. This whole event disagrees with what He taught. Flaws of men not God. Salem witch trials were also against what Christ taught. Once again flaws of men not God. So we can agree that men are sinful and evil, christians and non believers alike.
You know, the crusades went on for a lot longer and a lot of other places than around Jerusalem. Generally, christian rulers invaded lands of "heathens" because it was frowned upon to attack fellow christians. Germany's expansion in the Baltic for instance. It is however correct that these things didn't have much to do with the "real teachings of Christ" as understood today. For most rulers, heathens were a fitting target for their material expansion, and wars they could get the church's blessing for.
But the question is, how do you think your muslim mirror image would consider acts of violence in the name of islam? Both christianity and islam spread through use of force. Conversions at gunpoint were considered acceptable in it's time. Even in our time, christanity is no guarantee people can't kill eachother over it. (N.Ireland, LRA). So why are muslims worse? The muslim jihad, and the christian missionary declaration are actually pretty similar concepts. Both can be interpreted as "spiritual" or "by force if necessary" and have been.
Peace
Dan
"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
the big answer, if I may return for one more comment, that ELB is getting at, is that everything good about Christianity is God's doing, but everything bad about it is Man's fault. He can explain it all away through that one simple, yet misguided, belief.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
The Crusades began over trying to get the land back that muslims had come to occupy, not to further Christ's teachings. This whole event disagrees with what He taught. Flaws of men not God. Salem witch trials were also against what Christ taught. Once again flaws of men not God. So we can agree that men are sinful and evil, christians and non believers alike.
Yes we can. Can we also agree that the something is not necessarily factually correct because people are willing to die for it?
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win ."
the big answer, if I may return for one more comment, that ELB is getting at, is that everything good about Christianity is God's doing, but everything bad about it is Man's fault. He can explain it all away through that one simple, yet misguided, belief.
What ELB stated is correct. Once again you attack by saying he is misguided.
Look at the simple rules God has provided. God doesn't want us to force others to believe, God only wants us to present the facts. It's up to you to decide whether to have faith or not. God gives us free will.
I Commandment
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
II Commandment
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that
is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor
serve them.
III Commandment
Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh
his name in vain.
IV Commandment
Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
V Commandment
Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth
thee.
VI Commandment
Thou shalt not kill.
VII Commandment
Thou shalt not commit adultery.
VIII Commandment
Thou shalt not steal.
IX Commandment
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
X Commandment
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’ s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant,
nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.
thank you The Beach for your post
some of the posts here are just beautiful and I personally like the simple words you wrote
"its up to you to decide to have faith or not"
the big answer, if I may return for one more comment, that ELB is getting at, is that everything good about Christianity is God's doing, but everything bad about it is Man's fault. He can explain it all away through that one simple, yet misguided, belief.
What ELB stated is correct. Once again you attack by saying he is misguided.
Look at the simple rules God has provided. God doesn't want us to force others to believe, God only wants us to present the facts. It's up to you to decide whether to have faith or not. God gives us free will.
I Commandment
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
II Commandment
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that
is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor
serve them.
III Commandment
Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh
his name in vain.
IV Commandment
Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
V Commandment
Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth
thee.
VI Commandment
Thou shalt not kill.
VII Commandment
Thou shalt not commit adultery.
VIII Commandment
Thou shalt not steal.
IX Commandment
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
X Commandment
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’ s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant,
nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.
seems like rape or child molestation should have made the list above #9, #10, etc
no?
Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018) The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago 2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy 2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE) 2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston 2020: Oakland, Oakland:2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana 2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville 2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt2
the big answer, if I may return for one more comment, that ELB is getting at, is that everything good about Christianity is God's doing, but everything bad about it is Man's fault. He can explain it all away through that one simple, yet misguided, belief.
What ELB stated is correct. Once again you attack by saying he is misguided.
Look at the simple rules God has provided. God doesn't want us to force others to believe, God only wants us to present the facts. It's up to you to decide whether to have faith or not. God gives us free will.
I Commandment
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
II Commandment
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that
is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor
serve them.
III Commandment
Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh
his name in vain.
IV Commandment
Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
V Commandment
Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth
thee.
VI Commandment
Thou shalt not kill.
VII Commandment
Thou shalt not commit adultery.
VIII Commandment
Thou shalt not steal.
IX Commandment
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
X Commandment
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’ s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant,
nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.
seems like rape or child molestation should have made the list above #9, #10, etc
no?
That would fall under these:
VII Commandment
Thou shalt not commit adultery.
X Commandment
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’ s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant,
nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.[/quote]
How am I being an asshole? By getting passionate about your attempts to debunk my beliefs? "I said my god man think!" <--what an asshole statement of me to make i apologize. I didn’t call you son of satan, in reply to your Ted Kazanski reference of me when you threw out your attempts to debunk the bible. You don’t agree with Jesus' teachings, not mine or anything I say. That’s that. I see the typical secular lost soul assholieness coming through again. I'm going to throw my arms up and ask you to put me on your ignore list. Who is the hypocrite who cant handle debate here?
...
This is more of that behaviour I was referring to.. I especially like the childish touch, "I see the typical secular lost soul assholieness coming through again. I'm going to throw my arms up and ask you to put me on your ignore list. Who is the hypocrite who cant handle debate here?"... a nice twist, but the base comeback of, "I know you are, but what am I?" would have sufficed. This is just, yet another example that I cannot have a reasoned discussion with most Christians.
And PLEASE... do not try to hide behind 'Passion' when I have never tried to debunk your personal beliefs. The Unabomber Manifesto was directed to the article you posted... which you admitted to was not yours... but, now try to use it in your defense. The way I see it, manifesto is a farce... if you wrote it, then you are the farce. Passion can be and often is expressed without reverting to dickheadedness.
I have asked questions... questions I have run into by your explanations. These questions come to me because i think about them. Your impression that I am not using the thought processes, reasoning and logic.. delivered in your holier than thou response make you appear to be the fool, not me.
Which brings me to your response, 'It was rolled away so people could see inside' brings up another series of questions... Is it possible that someone crept in at night and stole the body of Jesus? Even if guarded... guards cannot be bribed? I got to this question by thinking of this:
If I went to a funeral and saw someone placed in a casket and buried, six feet deep... came back in 3 days to discover the gravesite had been dug up and the casket was empty. I would initially come to the conclusion that someone came in the night and stole the body.
Had I gone back in 3 day and dug up the grave, only to find an empty casket... well, that's a different story. Something else comes into play.
In other words, the opened tomb proves nothing.
...
And finally... thank you for labeling me as 'Lost and Souless'. I do not believe that is what Christian Fellowship teaches... but, it does shine a clearer light on the person I am dealing with.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Look at the simple rules God has provided. God doesn't want us to force others to believe, God only wants us to present the facts. It's up to you to decide whether to have faith or not. God gives us free will.
...
This is what many here have been saying... "It's up to you...".
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
the big answer, if I may return for one more comment, that ELB is getting at, is that everything good about Christianity is God's doing, but everything bad about it is Man's fault. He can explain it all away through that one simple, yet misguided, belief.
What ELB stated is correct. Once again you attack by saying he is misguided.
Look at the simple rules God has provided. God doesn't want us to force others to believe, God only wants us to present the facts. It's up to you to decide whether to have faith or not. God gives us free will.
I Commandment
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
II Commandment
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that
is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor
serve them.
III Commandment
Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh
his name in vain.
IV Commandment
Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
V Commandment
Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth
thee.
VI Commandment
Thou shalt not kill.
VII Commandment
Thou shalt not commit adultery.
VIII Commandment
Thou shalt not steal.
IX Commandment
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
X Commandment
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’ s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant,
nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.
you call saying someone has a misguided view as an attack? you'd better grow a bit thicker skin to get through life buddy, if you honestly think that's an "attack". :?
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
How am I being an asshole? By getting passionate about your attempts to debunk my beliefs? "I said my god man think!" <--what an asshole statement of me to make i apologize. I didn’t call you son of satan, in reply to your Ted Kazanski reference of me when you threw out your attempts to debunk the bible. You don’t agree with Jesus' teachings, not mine or anything I say. That’s that. I see the typical secular lost soul assholieness coming through again. I'm going to throw my arms up and ask you to put me on your ignore list. Who is the hypocrite who cant handle debate here?
...
This is more of that behaviour I was referring to.. I especially like the childish touch, "I see the typical secular lost soul assholieness coming through again. I'm going to throw my arms up and ask you to put me on your ignore list. Who is the hypocrite who cant handle debate here?"... a nice twist, but the base comeback of, "I know you are, but what am I?" would have sufficed. This is just, yet another example that I cannot have a reasoned discussion with most Christians.
And PLEASE... do not try to hide behind 'Passion' when I have never tried to debunk your personal beliefs. The Unabomber Manifesto was directed to the article you posted... which you admitted to was not yours... but, now try to use it in your defense. The way I see it, manifesto is a farce... if you wrote it, then you are the farce. Passion can be and often is expressed without reverting to dickheadedness.
I have asked questions... questions I have run into by your explanations. These questions come to me because i think about them. Your impression that I am not using the thought processes, reasoning and logic.. delivered in your holier than thou response make you appear to be the fool, not me.
Which brings me to your response, 'It was rolled away so people could see inside' brings up another series of questions... Is it possible that someone crept in at night and stole the body of Jesus? Even if guarded... guards cannot be bribed? I got to this question by thinking of this:
If I went to a funeral and saw someone placed in a casket and buried, six feet deep... came back in 3 days to discover the gravesite had been dug up and the casket was empty. I would initially come to the conclusion that someone came in the night and stole the body.
Had I gone back in 3 day and dug up the grave, only to find an empty casket... well, that's a different story. Something else comes into play.
In other words, the opened tomb proves nothing.
...
And finally... thank you for labeling me as 'Lost and Souless'. I do not believe that is what Christian Fellowship teaches... but, it does shine a clearer light on the person I am dealing with.
I said lost soul not "lost and souless". The bible does in fact refer to people who havent found God through Jesus as lost sheep. I added soul because thats the seat of our emotions. The heart and soul.
"I know you are but what am I" would have sufficed usually means someone is the first attacker. Like you said "This is just, yet another example that I cannot have a reasoned discussion with most non-Christians." See how that works both ways? That being said maybe what you've experienced here is what the bible calls "my" sinful nature coming through. If I were a good Christ follower I would have held my tongue and not let your comments get to me thus envoking my passionate emotions. I'm not a perfect christian, I'm a sinner.
I wasn’t arguing that because the tomb was opened it proved he rose from the dead just the fact that it was opened so people could see for themselves. Would it have made you believe if it would have stayed closed but then opened by Pilate himself and the body was missing?
On to "if the guards were bribed to let his followers take the body". I'm assuming that at that time the guards would have been put to death anyway for losing the body but say they were given the benefit of the doubt. Would you lie for money if you faced death to protect a secret like a bribe? Would you tell the truth for fear of losing your life?
True you've asked questions but the answers I've given in favor of Jesus haven’t been good enough and never will be. Why don’t you want what Jesus taught to be true? I guess that should be the question. Why is it that people find it offensive when someone tells them they are a sinner and need God? God said this through Jesus not Christians.
Why is it that people find it offensive when someone tells them they are a sinner and need God? God said this through Jesus not Christians.
it's offensive (not to mention insanely arrogant) to tell people what they need in life. frankly, you don't know shit. just like I don't know what you need in your life. So with regards to you, I don't know shit either.
It's pretty simple.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
I added soul because thats the seat of our emotions.
The 'soul' is based on religious or spiritual traditions. I would say what 'spiritual' people would call the soul, I would call the 'psyche' which, as a non-believer, refers to my 'self'. The seat of our emotions is in various parts of the brain, where they are created, stored and actioned upon (or not). So really, losing/damaging one's 'soul' would be through brain damage. God/Jesus has nothing to do with one's 'soul'.
True you've asked questions but the answers I've given in favor of Jesus haven’t been good enough and never will be. Why don’t you want what Jesus taught to be true? I guess that should be the question. Why is it that people find it offensive when someone tells them they are a sinner and need God? God said this through Jesus not Christians.
...
You have not answered one thing... and I do not expect answers from you... especially after some of the things you have written in here.
As for your questions: God said this through Jesus not Christians
I try to follow the teachings of Christ. But that whole resurrection thing... I'm still not convinced because I understand the history of Man and the Church and do not place blind trust in either. For me, Jesus lives in His teachings. Why is it that people find it offensive when someone tells them they are a sinner and need God?
Because who are YOU to tell us that? Who put YOU in charge of telling us we are sinners? It is offensive to us because YOU think you are the one who needs to show us... you are not our salvation... we reject you. We do not reject Jesus... or God.. or the Christian faith... we reject you.
...
And don't try to lean on this: God said this through Jesus not Christians.
The truth of the matter is... Christians, specifically the Bishops of Emperor Constintine said that God said this through Jesus according to the New Testament that was created by the early Church of Rome.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
True you've asked questions but the answers I've given in favor of Jesus haven’t been good enough and never will be. Why don’t you want what Jesus taught to be true? I guess that should be the question. Why is it that people find it offensive when someone tells them they are a sinner and need God? God said this through Jesus not Christians.
...
You have not answered one thing... and I do not expect answers from you... especially after some of the things you have written in here.
As for your questions: God said this through Jesus not Christians
I try to follow the teachings of Christ. But that whole resurrection thing... I'm still not convinced because I understand the history of Man and the Church and do not place blind trust in either. For me, Jesus lives in His teachings. Why is it that people find it offensive when someone tells them they are a sinner and need God?
Because who are YOU to tell us that? Who put YOU in charge of telling us we are sinners? It is offensive to us because YOU think you are the one who needs to show us... you are not our salvation... we reject you. We do not reject Jesus... or God.. or the Christian faith... we reject you.
...
And don't try to lean on this: God said this through Jesus not Christians.
The truth of the matter is... Christians, specifically the Bishops of Emperor Constintine said that God said this through Jesus according to the New Testament that was created by the early Church of Rome.
It wasnt created by the early church of rome it was compiled, there is a difference there. They had the best intentions when they "compiled" it. True after they saw the power aspect that arose the roman catholic church began to use that power. They pray to a holy mother mary. This isnt biblical. No one is holy but God/Jesus/Holy Spirit.
For me, Jesus lives in His teachings.
This is the best thing that you've said to me. So resurrection aside, if you believe what he taught then you believe that he said you are a sinner and no man could come to know god without confessing that Jesus can forgive your sins with his sacrifice?
This video was not anything new at all. I asked these questions and still do to some extent. Whomever is responsible for this video is not "educated" about Christianity. He assumes that all Christians believe in holy communion. He also assumes that just because one says they are Christian means that they must be Christian. Let's talk about science. The only thing that is to be recoginzed about science is that it continously dissproves itself. For example, we are still trying to figure out gravity and all those pictures of atoms in science tectbooks are simple illustrations to explain things we know very little about. Physiology is all theory. There is no certainty in science. There are only statistics as to effects. Nothing can be explained in pure scientific terms.
This video was not anything new at all. I asked these questions and still do to some extent. Whomever is responsible for this video is not "educated" about Christianity. He assumes that all Christians believe in holy communion. He also assumes that just because one says they are Christian means that they must be Christian. Let's talk about science. The only thing that is to be recoginzed about science is that it continously dissproves itself. For example, we are still trying to figure out gravity and all those pictures of atoms in science tectbooks are simple illustrations to explain things we know very little about. Physiology is all theory. There is no certainty in science. There are only statistics as to effects. Nothing can be explained in pure scientific terms.
Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018) The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago 2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy 2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE) 2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston 2020: Oakland, Oakland:2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana 2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville 2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt2
It wasnt created by the early church of rome it was compiled, there is a difference there. They had the best intentions when they "compiled" it. True after they saw the power aspect that arose the roman catholic church began to use that power. They pray to a holy mother mary. This isnt biblical. No one is holy but God/Jesus/Holy Spirit.
They compiled it choosing from a lot of texts. Those that weren't chosen disappeared and many are only now found in various places. Christianity as it was at that time was enormously heterogenous. Everything from esoteric gnostics to Jews awaiting his immediate return as a worldly king of Israel. The church had an enormous influence then to define what they thought Christianity was and should be. Had to make up stuff like the trinity (which isnt found anywhere explicitly in the bible itself) to get there, but having their authoritative interpretation enabled them to crack down with impunity on "heretics" the following centuries.
For me, Jesus lives in His teachings.
This is the best thing that you've said to me. So resurrection aside, if you believe what he taught then you believe that he said you are a sinner and no man could come to know god without confessing that Jesus can forgive your sins with his sacrifice?
I am guessing Cosmo is more into living a just life, turning the other cheek and so forth than that particular dogma. That's how I think about him anyway. Pacifism, community and morality is something we all can relate to after all. The son-of-god stuff is entirely the leap of faith which we mostly refuse to accept. Funny though, to Christians, his biggest contribution was to die innocently, while to un-christians like me his biggest contribution was his overall message of peace and heaven on earth...
Peace
Dan
"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
It wasnt created by the early church of rome it was compiled, there is a difference there. They had the best intentions when they "compiled" it. True after they saw the power aspect that arose the roman catholic church began to use that power. They pray to a holy mother mary. This isnt biblical. No one is holy but God/Jesus/Holy Spirit.
They compiled it choosing from a lot of texts. Those that weren't chosen disappeared and many are only now found in various places. Christianity as it was at that time was enormously heterogenous. Everything from esoteric gnostics to Jews awaiting his immediate return as a worldly king of Israel. The church had an enormous influence then to define what they thought Christianity was and should be. Had to make up stuff like the trinity (which isnt found anywhere explicitly in the bible itself) to get there, but having their authoritative interpretation enabled them to crack down with impunity on "heretics" the following centuries.
For me, Jesus lives in His teachings.
This is the best thing that you've said to me. So resurrection aside, if you believe what he taught then you believe that he said you are a sinner and no man could come to know god without confessing that Jesus can forgive your sins with his sacrifice?
I am guessing Cosmo is more into living a just life, turning the other cheek and so forth than that particular dogma. That's how I think about him anyway. Pacifism, community and morality is something we all can relate to after all. The son-of-god stuff is entirely the leap of faith which we mostly refuse to accept. Funny though, to Christians, his biggest contribution was to die innocently, while to un-christians like me his biggest contribution was his overall message of peace and heaven on earth...
Peace
Dan
Those compiled text were left out because they were unbiblical when up against the teachings of the old canon/testament and the teachings of Jesus. They didn’t chose or add anything to them. You would ask me how I know this just like I would ask you how you know what you claim. They compiled with the upmost integrity.
The trinity isn’t something they invented. Where did you come up with that? Jesus talked about his father being the same is him just that himself, Jesus had God+a human nature, but also said his father would send "a helper" after he was gone, the holy spirit. Its thought of as a triangle. All the sides are essential to making up the triangle and equally share a part as different, yet they are one.
It doesn’t take a leap of faith to believe we all came from nothing by random chance? I think it requires less faith to believe in the something we came from then from absolute nothingness.
It wasnt created by the early church of rome it was compiled, there is a difference there. They had the best intentions when they "compiled" it. True after they saw the power aspect that arose the roman catholic church began to use that power. They pray to a holy mother mary. This isnt biblical. No one is holy but God/Jesus/Holy Spirit.
They compiled it choosing from a lot of texts. Those that weren't chosen disappeared and many are only now found in various places. Christianity as it was at that time was enormously heterogenous. Everything from esoteric gnostics to Jews awaiting his immediate return as a worldly king of Israel. The church had an enormous influence then to define what they thought Christianity was and should be. Had to make up stuff like the trinity (which isnt found anywhere explicitly in the bible itself) to get there, but having their authoritative interpretation enabled them to crack down with impunity on "heretics" the following centuries.
For me, Jesus lives in His teachings.
This is the best thing that you've said to me. So resurrection aside, if you believe what he taught then you believe that he said you are a sinner and no man could come to know god without confessing that Jesus can forgive your sins with his sacrifice?
I am guessing Cosmo is more into living a just life, turning the other cheek and so forth than that particular dogma. That's how I think about him anyway. Pacifism, community and morality is something we all can relate to after all. The son-of-god stuff is entirely the leap of faith which we mostly refuse to accept. Funny though, to Christians, his biggest contribution was to die innocently, while to un-christians like me his biggest contribution was his overall message of peace and heaven on earth...
Peace
Dan
Those compiled text were left out because they were unbiblical when up against the teachings of the old canon/testament and the teachings of Jesus. They didn’t chose or add anything to them. You would ask me how I know this just like I would ask you how you know what you claim. They compiled with the upmost integrity.
The trinity isn’t something they invented. Where did you come up with that? Jesus talked about his father being the same is him just that himself, Jesus had God+a human nature, but also said his father would send "a helper" after he was gone, the holy spirit. Its thought of as a triangle. All the sides are essential to making up the triangle and equally share a part as different, yet they are one.
It doesn’t take a leap of faith to believe we all came from nothing by random chance? I think it requires less faith to believe in the something we came from then from absolute nothingness.
Well I believe in the thing that God came from, no wait, I believe in the thing that the previous thing that created God came from, no wait............I thought we agreed no to try to "logic" this out anymore. :x
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win ."
Those compiled text were left out because they were unbiblical when up against the teachings of the old canon/testament and the teachings of Jesus. They didn’t chose or add anything to them. You would ask me how I know this just like I would ask you how you know what you claim. They compiled with the upmost integrity.
But that's what I'm saying. It was constructed by the church fathers to fit what they thought and wanted it to be. And they did choose, choosing to leave out the books that didn't fit their version of the story... They didn't need to create any new books, they just had to pick from the multitude of different versions the ones they liked the most. The moment christianity became a consolidated state religion (which was at that time in history), it became an instrument of power, soon going after heretics just as hard as christians themselves had been persecuted. I would not put too much trust in the men that made this happen. And that's where the choice of biblical texts come from.
The trinity isn’t something they invented. Where did you come up with that? Jesus talked about his father being the same is him just that himself, Jesus had God+a human nature, but also said his father would send "a helper" after he was gone, the holy spirit. Its thought of as a triangle. All the sides are essential to making up the triangle and equally share a part as different, yet they are one.
Where does he flat out say it? The god in me stuff could be taken as referring to the divine in every person. The reason the trinity was consolidated as a principle was first and foremost to compromise the wildly different strands of christianity into an institution to be used for power. There are several illogical components to me in the god=man=ghost setup. I can only make sense of it if it really is about uniting christian directions that each for themselves felt either that Jesus WAS God, that he was the son of God (allowing for those with more polytheistic tastes) or that he was embodied by the holy spirit of God that saturates the universe (allowing for intellectual and pantheistic directions). The trinity lets them all agree that Jesus was a swell guy, and move on.
To me, why God jumps through all kinds of hoops to essentially sacrifice himself to himself... I dont get it. (and dont get me started on "blood sacrifice") Especially since he some pages further back in the good book has no qualms about intervening spectacularly when he wants something.
It doesn’t take a leap of faith to believe we all came from nothing by random chance? I think it requires less faith to believe in the something we came from then from absolute nothingness.
You seem to assume there are only two options: Christianity or random chance meaningless atheism. I would like to remind you that there are MANY ways to look at it of which these are only two of them. To the best of our knowledge, we do not know from where we come. All formulas break down at the surmised big bang. What you want to put in front of that is up to personal taste. But putting God in there just begs the question where God came from. Unnecessary in my view, and according to Occam's razor, but to each his own.
To the best of our ability, we know evolution is a mechanism that is working, and we know many of the ways it does. We know the earth is incredibly old, and that there have been myriads of different dominant species before us.
As for what surronds our facts, it's really very open. Meaning is what you make of it. Life can be meaning in itself, the universe's way to experience itself perhaps. Maybe god is everything of which we all are a tiny part. Perhaps there is no ultimate meaning. Life appears, changes, disappears all across the universe without a higher purpose. Meaning is what we make it. It is not hard to find a meaning that more closely aligns with scientific facts than christianity. And christanity do not have the monopoly on god, the divine, meaning or morality. Poking at science does not automatically strengthen Christianity or Deism in general.
I just can't stay away apparently.
Anyways, take it for what it's worth as my opinion and understanding of facts.
Peace
Dan
"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
Life can be meaning in itself, the universe's way to experience itself perhaps.
That is a very Taoist view and philosophically I think it is very interesting, primarily because I had sort of a "spiritual epiphany" that your statement is indeed how it works the first time I did lysergic. :shock:
Everything not forbidden is compulsory and eveything not compulsory is forbidden. You are free... free to do what the government says you can do.
Life can be meaning in itself, the universe's way to experience itself perhaps.
That is a very Taoist view and philosophically I think it is very interesting, primarily because I had sort of a "spiritual epiphany" that your statement is indeed how it works the first time I did lysergic. :shock:
Taoist, eh? Perhaps it is, I wouldn't know as I havent read up on that. My influence stems from Daniel Quinn I think, where I was presented with animist/pantheist possibilities. It is a road I find alot more interesting than several box-office religions though.
Anyways, I get epiphanies sometimes, usually in a setting of nature, or in a tight and large social setting. Which is why I to an extent respect religious views, as I see them as their way to explain what I too experience from time to time. That feeling of connectedness and being a part. I dont need the crutches of religious dogma to try to make sense of it, and dont automatically think within the bounds of the local religion. I am sure that what I, christians, muslims etc are experiencing are of the same root. So I guess I'm sort of agnostic in one way, and somewhat atheist in another. But who said it is supposed to be easy.
Peace
Dan
"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
"So I made a mistake, ONE mistake, can't a man start over?! DO I HAVE TO KEEP PAYING?! Maybe I should make another mistake... maybe I should make two."
Comments
remember the Crusades?
The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt2
PRAISE!!!!
The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt2
Or are we going to forget that?
You know, the crusades went on for a lot longer and a lot of other places than around Jerusalem. Generally, christian rulers invaded lands of "heathens" because it was frowned upon to attack fellow christians. Germany's expansion in the Baltic for instance. It is however correct that these things didn't have much to do with the "real teachings of Christ" as understood today. For most rulers, heathens were a fitting target for their material expansion, and wars they could get the church's blessing for.
But the question is, how do you think your muslim mirror image would consider acts of violence in the name of islam? Both christianity and islam spread through use of force. Conversions at gunpoint were considered acceptable in it's time. Even in our time, christanity is no guarantee people can't kill eachother over it. (N.Ireland, LRA). So why are muslims worse? The muslim jihad, and the christian missionary declaration are actually pretty similar concepts. Both can be interpreted as "spiritual" or "by force if necessary" and have been.
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Yes we can. Can we also agree that the something is not necessarily factually correct because people are willing to die for it?
"With our thoughts we make the world"
What ELB stated is correct. Once again you attack by saying he is misguided.
Look at the simple rules God has provided. God doesn't want us to force others to believe, God only wants us to present the facts. It's up to you to decide whether to have faith or not. God gives us free will.
I Commandment
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
II Commandment
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that
is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor
serve them.
III Commandment
Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh
his name in vain.
IV Commandment
Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
V Commandment
Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth
thee.
VI Commandment
Thou shalt not kill.
VII Commandment
Thou shalt not commit adultery.
VIII Commandment
Thou shalt not steal.
IX Commandment
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
X Commandment
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’ s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant,
nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.
want to be enlightened"
some of the posts here are just beautiful and I personally like the simple words you wrote
"its up to you to decide to have faith or not"
seems like rape or child molestation should have made the list above #9, #10, etc
no?
The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt2
VII Commandment
Thou shalt not commit adultery.
X Commandment
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’ s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant,
nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.[/quote]
want to be enlightened"
This is more of that behaviour I was referring to.. I especially like the childish touch, "I see the typical secular lost soul assholieness coming through again. I'm going to throw my arms up and ask you to put me on your ignore list. Who is the hypocrite who cant handle debate here?"... a nice twist, but the base comeback of, "I know you are, but what am I?" would have sufficed. This is just, yet another example that I cannot have a reasoned discussion with most Christians.
And PLEASE... do not try to hide behind 'Passion' when I have never tried to debunk your personal beliefs. The Unabomber Manifesto was directed to the article you posted... which you admitted to was not yours... but, now try to use it in your defense. The way I see it, manifesto is a farce... if you wrote it, then you are the farce. Passion can be and often is expressed without reverting to dickheadedness.
I have asked questions... questions I have run into by your explanations. These questions come to me because i think about them. Your impression that I am not using the thought processes, reasoning and logic.. delivered in your holier than thou response make you appear to be the fool, not me.
Which brings me to your response, 'It was rolled away so people could see inside' brings up another series of questions... Is it possible that someone crept in at night and stole the body of Jesus? Even if guarded... guards cannot be bribed? I got to this question by thinking of this:
If I went to a funeral and saw someone placed in a casket and buried, six feet deep... came back in 3 days to discover the gravesite had been dug up and the casket was empty. I would initially come to the conclusion that someone came in the night and stole the body.
Had I gone back in 3 day and dug up the grave, only to find an empty casket... well, that's a different story. Something else comes into play.
In other words, the opened tomb proves nothing.
...
And finally... thank you for labeling me as 'Lost and Souless'. I do not believe that is what Christian Fellowship teaches... but, it does shine a clearer light on the person I am dealing with.
Hail, Hail!!!
This is what many here have been saying... "It's up to you...".
Hail, Hail!!!
you call saying someone has a misguided view as an attack? you'd better grow a bit thicker skin to get through life buddy, if you honestly think that's an "attack". :?
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
I said lost soul not "lost and souless". The bible does in fact refer to people who havent found God through Jesus as lost sheep. I added soul because thats the seat of our emotions. The heart and soul.
"I know you are but what am I" would have sufficed usually means someone is the first attacker. Like you said "This is just, yet another example that I cannot have a reasoned discussion with most non-Christians." See how that works both ways? That being said maybe what you've experienced here is what the bible calls "my" sinful nature coming through. If I were a good Christ follower I would have held my tongue and not let your comments get to me thus envoking my passionate emotions. I'm not a perfect christian, I'm a sinner.
I wasn’t arguing that because the tomb was opened it proved he rose from the dead just the fact that it was opened so people could see for themselves. Would it have made you believe if it would have stayed closed but then opened by Pilate himself and the body was missing?
On to "if the guards were bribed to let his followers take the body". I'm assuming that at that time the guards would have been put to death anyway for losing the body but say they were given the benefit of the doubt. Would you lie for money if you faced death to protect a secret like a bribe? Would you tell the truth for fear of losing your life?
True you've asked questions but the answers I've given in favor of Jesus haven’t been good enough and never will be. Why don’t you want what Jesus taught to be true? I guess that should be the question. Why is it that people find it offensive when someone tells them they are a sinner and need God? God said this through Jesus not Christians.
it's offensive (not to mention insanely arrogant) to tell people what they need in life. frankly, you don't know shit. just like I don't know what you need in your life. So with regards to you, I don't know shit either.
It's pretty simple.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
The 'soul' is based on religious or spiritual traditions. I would say what 'spiritual' people would call the soul, I would call the 'psyche' which, as a non-believer, refers to my 'self'. The seat of our emotions is in various parts of the brain, where they are created, stored and actioned upon (or not). So really, losing/damaging one's 'soul' would be through brain damage. God/Jesus has nothing to do with one's 'soul'.
You have not answered one thing... and I do not expect answers from you... especially after some of the things you have written in here.
As for your questions:
God said this through Jesus not Christians
I try to follow the teachings of Christ. But that whole resurrection thing... I'm still not convinced because I understand the history of Man and the Church and do not place blind trust in either. For me, Jesus lives in His teachings.
Why is it that people find it offensive when someone tells them they are a sinner and need God?
Because who are YOU to tell us that? Who put YOU in charge of telling us we are sinners? It is offensive to us because YOU think you are the one who needs to show us... you are not our salvation... we reject you. We do not reject Jesus... or God.. or the Christian faith... we reject you.
...
And don't try to lean on this:
God said this through Jesus not Christians.
The truth of the matter is... Christians, specifically the Bishops of Emperor Constintine said that God said this through Jesus according to the New Testament that was created by the early Church of Rome.
Hail, Hail!!!
It wasnt created by the early church of rome it was compiled, there is a difference there. They had the best intentions when they "compiled" it. True after they saw the power aspect that arose the roman catholic church began to use that power. They pray to a holy mother mary. This isnt biblical. No one is holy but God/Jesus/Holy Spirit.
For me, Jesus lives in His teachings.
This is the best thing that you've said to me. So resurrection aside, if you believe what he taught then you believe that he said you are a sinner and no man could come to know god without confessing that Jesus can forgive your sins with his sacrifice?
The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt2
I am guessing Cosmo is more into living a just life, turning the other cheek and so forth than that particular dogma. That's how I think about him anyway. Pacifism, community and morality is something we all can relate to after all. The son-of-god stuff is entirely the leap of faith which we mostly refuse to accept. Funny though, to Christians, his biggest contribution was to die innocently, while to un-christians like me his biggest contribution was his overall message of peace and heaven on earth...
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
Those compiled text were left out because they were unbiblical when up against the teachings of the old canon/testament and the teachings of Jesus. They didn’t chose or add anything to them. You would ask me how I know this just like I would ask you how you know what you claim. They compiled with the upmost integrity.
The trinity isn’t something they invented. Where did you come up with that? Jesus talked about his father being the same is him just that himself, Jesus had God+a human nature, but also said his father would send "a helper" after he was gone, the holy spirit. Its thought of as a triangle. All the sides are essential to making up the triangle and equally share a part as different, yet they are one.
It doesn’t take a leap of faith to believe we all came from nothing by random chance? I think it requires less faith to believe in the something we came from then from absolute nothingness.
Well I believe in the thing that God came from, no wait, I believe in the thing that the previous thing that created God came from, no wait............I thought we agreed no to try to "logic" this out anymore. :x
"With our thoughts we make the world"
Where does he flat out say it? The god in me stuff could be taken as referring to the divine in every person. The reason the trinity was consolidated as a principle was first and foremost to compromise the wildly different strands of christianity into an institution to be used for power. There are several illogical components to me in the god=man=ghost setup. I can only make sense of it if it really is about uniting christian directions that each for themselves felt either that Jesus WAS God, that he was the son of God (allowing for those with more polytheistic tastes) or that he was embodied by the holy spirit of God that saturates the universe (allowing for intellectual and pantheistic directions). The trinity lets them all agree that Jesus was a swell guy, and move on.
To me, why God jumps through all kinds of hoops to essentially sacrifice himself to himself... I dont get it. (and dont get me started on "blood sacrifice") Especially since he some pages further back in the good book has no qualms about intervening spectacularly when he wants something.
You seem to assume there are only two options: Christianity or random chance meaningless atheism. I would like to remind you that there are MANY ways to look at it of which these are only two of them. To the best of our knowledge, we do not know from where we come. All formulas break down at the surmised big bang. What you want to put in front of that is up to personal taste. But putting God in there just begs the question where God came from. Unnecessary in my view, and according to Occam's razor, but to each his own.
To the best of our ability, we know evolution is a mechanism that is working, and we know many of the ways it does. We know the earth is incredibly old, and that there have been myriads of different dominant species before us.
As for what surronds our facts, it's really very open. Meaning is what you make of it. Life can be meaning in itself, the universe's way to experience itself perhaps. Maybe god is everything of which we all are a tiny part. Perhaps there is no ultimate meaning. Life appears, changes, disappears all across the universe without a higher purpose. Meaning is what we make it. It is not hard to find a meaning that more closely aligns with scientific facts than christianity. And christanity do not have the monopoly on god, the divine, meaning or morality. Poking at science does not automatically strengthen Christianity or Deism in general.
I just can't stay away apparently.
Anyways, take it for what it's worth as my opinion and understanding of facts.
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
That is a very Taoist view and philosophically I think it is very interesting, primarily because I had sort of a "spiritual epiphany" that your statement is indeed how it works the first time I did lysergic. :shock:
Anyways, I get epiphanies sometimes, usually in a setting of nature, or in a tight and large social setting. Which is why I to an extent respect religious views, as I see them as their way to explain what I too experience from time to time. That feeling of connectedness and being a part. I dont need the crutches of religious dogma to try to make sense of it, and dont automatically think within the bounds of the local religion. I am sure that what I, christians, muslims etc are experiencing are of the same root. So I guess I'm sort of agnostic in one way, and somewhat atheist in another. But who said it is supposed to be easy.
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
"So I made a mistake, ONE mistake, can't a man start over?! DO I HAVE TO KEEP PAYING?! Maybe I should make another mistake... maybe I should make two."
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014