10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer

Gern Blansten

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDHJ4ztnldQ

blackredyellow

The fact that that guy would go take the time (and money) to put that worthless video and website together boggles my mind...

Gern Blansten

I doubt that the video cost anything.

regardless it is an interesting video raising interesting questions...

blackredyellow

It just seems like a colossal waste of time to put all that stuff together to dis-prove what millions of people believe.

Rational thinking Christians (or any other religion) know that their "truth" or "facts" is based on faith and not concrete facts or evidence. A leap of faith is the whole essence of religion.

Why care what other people believe? I never got that about religious people who proselytize about their religions to "recruit" people, and I don't get it about anti-religious people who try to convince religious people that they are wrong.

Not even just with religion, you see it on all levels in our society... even on this board, people will go to great lengths to convince people that some band really sucks or that some band is really good... who cares? if someone thinks Lady Gaga is the most amazing musician ever , then what does that matter to me?

Gern Blansten

Is your posting on here a waste of time?

Does his video "dis-prove" anything? of course not....he wants to make people THINK

dpmay

shit, where to begin? how about here: if this guy is such a rational and intellectually fair observer, why does he not recognize his use of the old straw man logical fallacy? seems to me like he's decided what all christians believe about a large variety of intellectually and philosophically challenging questions. then, he attacks that monolithic perspective, thus 'disproving' any existence of god.

well lemme tell you, there is a lot of dissent in the christian world about the nature of god - A LOT. for example, some christians would take a more deist-stlye approach to belief in god, a belief where god exists but just doesn't really intervene in human affairs all that much.

do miracles occur? maybe, maybe not. but the non-existence of miracles is not a disproof of god.

why does god 'allow' suffering? well this one is a huge can of worms, but let me just say that i believe questions like this can actually be interpreted as evidence god DOES exist.

all those biblical issues? well, many rational christians believe that the bible was in fact written by a bunch of dudes a long time ago, in many cases for social and political reasons. and anyone who expects the bible to contan valid science is misguided. this includes people who point at the lack of valid science in the bible as some kind of evidence that god is imaginary...

why do bad things happen to good people? to claim that bad things happen to all people in equal statistical proportions (or whatever this guy said) is intellectually bankrupt. but so is claiming that god has a plan so suffering is actually good. which is what some christians do say. there really is a lot to be said here too...

as far as evidence of the miracles of jesus, well, i wonder what kind of evidence would suffice? what would in fact be universal to all people across all times?

and why should jesus appear to me? i am christian, but i'm just some dude - why should i expect apparations? that's what faith is.

as for the whole eatmybodydrinkmyblood thing, this guy should know that this issue has split chruches for centuries, and is a big reason why there are so many different types of christians now. many MANY christians do not actually believe in that literally.

the funniest part of this video for me (i actually laughed out loud) was the last question, why do christians get divorced so much? come on, man, gimme a break. christians are people like everyone else and do bad stupid shit like everyone else (not that i'm calling divorce bad and stupid - but i think that was his point).

to say that christians' bad behavior shows that there is no god is like saying that a few climate change scientists falsifying data means there is no climate change - no connection, really.

i just get sick of people acting like atheism is the only truly rational, defensable position. faith in god, even specific belief in christianity can be just as rational - if you put some thought into it.

OK i'm done.

Gern Blansten

good post

My opinion is that the inconsistencies across the different variations of faith is proof of non-existence. How could something so perfect created by a perfect being be allowed to become so flawed?

dpmay

Gern Blansten wrote:

good post

My opinion is that the inconsistencies across the different variations of faith is proof of non-existence. How could something so perfect created by a perfect being be allowed to become so flawed?

i think you are raising two separate issues.

first, what does inconsistency across the multitudes of faiths we currently see on earth mean? well, who knows. it could certainly mean that everyone is wrong and that nothing supernatural (like a creator god) exists.

i personally don't tend to think that. i think that absolute proof of god would be, frankly, unfair. so what might we be left with instead of absolute proof? well, how about culturally-specific beliefs, feelings, that there is somehow something else out there, in some way responsible for existence? How about faith traditions that would make sense to all different kinds of people, across geography and time? well, that is, almost universally, what we actually have. real proof of god could never be something that was only comprehensible or meaningful to a select few. so instead of airtight proof, we have circumstantial evidence, that essentially every culture that has ever existed believed in something. doesn't prove god's existence, of course not, but it is worth considering...

second, why is something so perfect created by a perfect being now so flawed? this is a good question, and a hard one for everyone to consider. i mean, some athiests act like christians must account for the fucked-up nature of the world, but in actuality athiests must wrestle with this too. why is there suffering? believing there is no god does not answer that.

personally, i believe that as humans we can do what we want, and over the course of our history on this planet we have done a lot of fucking up. as a collective, which means as individuals too. so your question about why are things flawed is actually the exact point as to why i personally am christian.

markin ball

dpmay wrote:

Gern Blansten wrote:

good post

My opinion is that the inconsistencies across the different variations of faith is proof of non-existence. How could something so perfect created by a perfect being be allowed to become so flawed?

i think you are raising two separate issues.

first, what does inconsistency across the multitudes of faiths we currently see on earth mean? well, who knows. it could certainly mean that everyone is wrong and that nothing supernatural (like a creator god) exists.

i personally don't tend to think that. i think that absolute proof of god would be, frankly, unfair. so what might we be left with instead of absolute proof? well, how about culturally-specific beliefs, feelings, that there is somehow something else out there, in some way responsible for existence? How about faith traditions that would make sense to all different kinds of people, across geography and time? well, that is, almost universally, what we actually have. real proof of god could never be something that was only comprehensible or meaningful to a select few. so instead of airtight proof, we have circumstantial evidence, that essentially every culture that has ever existed believed in something. doesn't prove god's existence, of course not, but it is worth considering...

second, why is something so perfect created by a perfect being now so flawed? this is a good question, and a hard one for everyone to consider. i mean, some athiests act like christians must account for the fucked-up nature of the world, but in actuality athiests must wrestle with this too. why is there suffering? believing there is no god does not answer that.

personally, i believe that as humans we can do what we want, and over the course of our history on this planet we have done a lot of fucking up. as a collective, which means as individuals too. so your question about why are things flawed is actually the exact point as to why i personally am christian.

I appreciate the sentiment in your posts in this thread that seem to be express that the existence of God is faith based and not based on logic or scientific evidence except you do try to reason out one point. Logicaly, we cannot conclude that something (God) is responsible for all of existence without saying that something must be responsible for God.

Nothingman54

when i was 19 i was working at a music store a lady came in walked up to me and said god loves me and he will be watching over me very soon. i didnt think much of it. an hour later i got off work, went home. my best friend came over to get his guitar, he stayed only about 2 min. he left, 20 min later he hit a tree, head went threw the windsheild cut his neck and bleed to death...there is no doubt in my mind that that lady was an angel or messenger from God. i dont need evidence to know GOD is real. i know he is real.

NoK

Nothingman54 wrote:

when i was 19 i was working at a music store a lady came in walked up to me and said god loves me and he will be watching over me very soon. i didnt think much of it. an hour later i got off work, went home. my best friend came over to get his guitar, he stayed only about 2 min. he left, 20 min later he hit a tree, head went threw the windsheild cut his neck and bleed to death...there is no doubt in my mind that that lady was an angel or messenger from God. i dont need evidence to know GOD is real. i know he is real.

First, sorry about your friend. Second, honest question, how is your friend's passing linked to God watching over you? Were you supposed to be with your friend at the time and decided not to go? I don't get the logic.

Nothingman54

NoK wrote:

Nothingman54 wrote:

when i was 19 i was working at a music store a lady came in walked up to me and said god loves me and he will be watching over me very soon. i didnt think much of it. an hour later i got off work, went home. my best friend came over to get his guitar, he stayed only about 2 min. he left, 20 min later he hit a tree, head went threw the windsheild cut his neck and bleed to death...there is no doubt in my mind that that lady was an angel or messenger from God. i dont need evidence to know GOD is real. i know he is real.

First, sorry about your friend. Second, honest question, how is your friend's passing linked to God watching over you? Were you supposed to be with your friend at the time and decided not to go? I don't get the logic.

logic? a lady came to me and told me god loves me andd will be watching over me, then my friend died. maybe i could have gone and died to. i dont know. not much logic to it. it is what it is. maybe i would have committed suicide, i dont know. im still here. why wouldnt the 2 be linked? everybody wants a link or something for proff, very sad. thats all iv got to say about it. i dont want to get into it with aanyone over this. beliebve what you want.

NoK

Nothingman54 wrote:

logic? a lady came to me and told me god loves me andd will be watching over me, then my friend died. maybe i could have gone and died to. i dont know. not much logic to it. it is what it is. maybe i would have committed suicide, i dont know. im still here. why wouldnt the 2 be linked? everybody wants a link or something for proff, very sad. thats all iv got to say about it. i dont want to get into it with aanyone over this. beliebve what you want.

What is sad is that you thought i was requesting a link or proof from you to change my entire belief system. I was just wondering, OUT OF INTEREST, what you thought the significance was of God watching over you when your friend was the one who passed. Doesn't really matter anyway.

dpmay

markin ball wrote:

I appreciate the sentiment in your posts in this thread that seem to be express that the existence of God is faith based and not based on logic or scientific evidence except you do try to reason out one point. Logicaly, we cannot conclude that something (God) is responsible for all of existence without saying that something must be responsible for God.

actually, i am i suppose kind arguing it both ways - is that fair? i definitely concede that belief in god is ultimately a matter of faith more than reason.

but, i am trying to make a few points that belief in god can be compatible with basic human logic, and in fact belief in god can also be strenghtened through logical arguments. my main motivation behind getting all lengthy here is the original video in the thread - people like that really bother me, in their evident belief that belief in god CANNOT be logical, or that the only real conclusion upon a logical assessment of our existence is that god CANNOT exist. it's damned closeminded and patronizing - there are a shit-ton of christians out there who have put a lifetime into a logical investigation into their faith. so to say belief in god can't be logical - those people have their heads in the sand as much as they think christians do.

as far as god being responsible for all existence, so then wondering what is responsible for god - i appreciate that issue. i think it's really kind of a matter of semantics. most modern cosmologists believe our universe started with the big bang, and no one really knows or thinks we'll ever be able to say what came before that. i completely believe in that science. so the very existence of our universe is based on an apparent cause-less event - the big bang. as such, the idea of a cause-less creator god doesn't really bother me too much.

redrock

dpmay wrote:

so the very existence of our universe is based on an apparent cause-less event - the big bang.

Apparent is the word.... Science will eventually explain it. Every day we understand more of the 'unexplained'. What was down to 'faith' & 'miracles' is being explained by perfectly natural phenomenon, etc. An almighty creator god just doesn't cut it.

Gern Blansten

Nothingman54 wrote:

NoK wrote:

Nothingman54 wrote:

when i was 19 i was working at a music store a lady came in walked up to me and said god loves me and he will be watching over me very soon. i didnt think much of it. an hour later i got off work, went home. my best friend came over to get his guitar, he stayed only about 2 min. he left, 20 min later he hit a tree, head went threw the windsheild cut his neck and bleed to death...there is no doubt in my mind that that lady was an angel or messenger from God. i dont need evidence to know GOD is real. i know he is real.

First, sorry about your friend. Second, honest question, how is your friend's passing linked to God watching over you? Were you supposed to be with your friend at the time and decided not to go? I don't get the logic.

logic? a lady came to me and told me god loves me andd will be watching over me, then my friend died. maybe i could have gone and died to. i dont know. not much logic to it. it is what it is. maybe i would have committed suicide, i dont know. im still here. why wouldnt the 2 be linked? everybody wants a link or something for proff, very sad. thats all iv got to say about it. i dont want to get into it with aanyone over this. beliebve what you want.

first...sorry about your friend

second....why didn't god save your friend? seems like he was the one that needed the heads up from the "angel"

dpmay

redrock wrote:

dpmay wrote:

so the very existence of our universe is based on an apparent cause-less event - the big bang.

Apparent is the word.... Science will eventually explain it. Every day we understand more of the 'unexplained'. What was down to 'faith' & 'miracles' is being explained by perfectly natural phenomenon, etc. An almighty creator god just doesn't cut it.

OK, so i think we are probably gonna disagree here - i firmly believe there are some things science is never gonna tell us, in fact CANNOT tell us. for example, the uncertainty principle tells us that it is impossible for us to simultaneously observe both the position and momentum of some kinds of subatomic particles. i think the big bang is kind of like that, and unless i am mistaken, i believe there is a school of thought among some cosmologists that we will never be able to describe the first few tiny fractions of a second after the big bang happened. i also think it's plausible that whatever came before the big bang occured before the existence of time and space as we know it, and as such our science, which is unavoidably stuck in time and space as we do know it, will be unable to describe what came before the big bang.

(but i am not a physicist, or a comologist (i'm a mathematician) and so these understandings may be incomplete...)

another thing, i agree with you that science has told us more and more about our world and universe, and will continue to. i just think there are limits. if you believe in god and just define that god as a so-called 'god of the gaps', plugging god into whatever you can't understand, i think you're putting yourself in a bad position. the god i believe in is not just a proxy for the scientific stuff we don't understand yet. the god i believe in resides in that area outside of what our science can tell us - and there really is such an area.

and when you say an almighty creator god just doesn't cut it, what exactly do you mean?

ohbytheway, i purposely have avoided the word 'almighty' as it is kind of loaded...

Hugh Freaking Dillon

Nothingman54 wrote:

NoK wrote:

Nothingman54 wrote:

when i was 19 i was working at a music store a lady came in walked up to me and said god loves me and he will be watching over me very soon. i didnt think much of it. an hour later i got off work, went home. my best friend came over to get his guitar, he stayed only about 2 min. he left, 20 min later he hit a tree, head went threw the windsheild cut his neck and bleed to death...there is no doubt in my mind that that lady was an angel or messenger from God. i dont need evidence to know GOD is real. i know he is real.

First, sorry about your friend. Second, honest question, how is your friend's passing linked to God watching over you? Were you supposed to be with your friend at the time and decided not to go? I don't get the logic.

logic? a lady came to me and told me god loves me andd will be watching over me, then my friend died. maybe i could have gone and died to. i dont know. not much logic to it. it is what it is. maybe i would have committed suicide, i dont know. im still here. why wouldnt the 2 be linked? everybody wants a link or something for proff, very sad. thats all iv got to say about it. i dont want to get into it with aanyone over this. beliebve what you want.

it's called a random event. nutbar christians say that shit to strangers all the time. especially to long haired kids working in music stores. this one just happened to say it to you shortly before a very tragic incident in your life. if you had been in the car and walked away unscathed, or if you were supposed to go with him and something held you back at the last second,I guess I could maybe see why you would think the two are linked, but one has nothing to do with the other. it's like saying "this guy I knew dropped dead of a heart attack two days later, that could have been me!".

But that's just my opinion. and don't say it's sad that people are looking for proof. you were the one trying to give it to us unsolicited in the first place.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

Nothingman54 wrote:

when i was 19 i was working at a music store a lady came in walked up to me and said god loves me and he will be watching over me very soon. i didnt think much of it. an hour later i got off work, went home. my best friend came over to get his guitar, he stayed only about 2 min. he left, 20 min later he hit a tree, head went threw the windsheild cut his neck and bleed to death...there is no doubt in my mind that that lady was an angel or messenger from God. i dont need evidence to know GOD is real. i know he is real.

and that's the other thing that bothers me. how is the fact that god let your friend bleed to death tragically, evidence that there is a god? why not save him? I'm pretty sure your friend's family didn't think that was evidence that god is real. Quite the contrary.

cajunkiwi

blackredyellow wrote:

It just seems like a colossal waste of time to put all that stuff together to dis-prove what millions of people believe.

Rational thinking Christians (or any other religion) know that their "truth" or "facts" is based on faith and not concrete facts or evidence. A leap of faith is the whole essence of religion.

Why care what other people believe? I never got that about religious people who proselytize about their religions to "recruit" people, and I don't get it about anti-religious people who try to convince religious people that they are wrong.

Not even just with religion, you see it on all levels in our society... even on this board, people will go to great lengths to convince people that some band really sucks or that some band is really good... who cares? if someone thinks Lady Gaga is the most amazing musician ever , then what does that matter to me?

My only beef is when politicians use their leap of faith to justify laws being passed. I couldn't care less what religion people practice in their own home, or in their place of worship - but the hairs on the back of my neck stand on end when someone tells me that people should have basic civil rights withheld because the bible said their sexual preference/color of skin is bad. If Adam and Steve want to get married, who cares? It certainly doesn't make my marriage to my wife (I'm a guy) any less legit - I'd be happy for Adam that he found someone he loved as much as I love my wife.

So, I'm with you... to a point. So long as you don't use that leap of faith to persecute other people, we're cool. Lady Gaga's last album sold a crapload more copies than Backspacer, so it doesn't take a leap of faith to state there are more Lady Gaga fans around than Pearl Jam fans right now, but Pearl Jam has just as much right to be in the same record store.

As long as Pearl Jam and Lady Gaga albums can hang out under the same roof, I'm cool with my agnostic self hanging out with my religious friends. Just as long as they don't try and turn me into a Gaga fan... lol

pandora

Well we are "little brains" trying to figure it all out that is clear
I pray to the God that doesn't exist for enlightened times to come soon.
Wouldn't that just be a gas?
the dawning of a new era where to feel means to know

dpmay

i know there is a similar discussion going on in another thread, but i have not read all 30-some-odd pages, some i'm gonna keep posting here...

and besides, it was the video originally posted in this thread that got me interested in replying.

there seems to be sentiment in this thread (and the other one) that one of the things that bother some people about some christians is that they act very certain, sure of themselves, and act like the athiest or agnostic perspective is somehow immoral, and that it is their duty to convert non-believers.

i am here to point out that in fact some athiests do exactly the same thing - and it bothers me that their positions are considered rational, logical, reasonable, rather than just as judgemental as the christians they are attacking.

case in point: what if i believe the evidence for god's existense is completely overwhelming and say

"your non-religious beliefs hurt you personally and hurt us as a species becasue they are delusional. disbelief in any god is complete nonsense."

i think most nonbelievers would be either annoyed or offended. however, this is exactly what the guy in the original video said - just take out the "non-" and "dis". and no one has attacked his position as judgemental.

we have a lot of super-atheists like richard dawkins and christoher hitchens writing books, convincing intelligent people that belief in god in general and christianity in particular cannot be rational. but that is simply not so.

Gern Blansten

Honestly the one thing that bothers me the most about christians is their arrogance

Not all christians certainly but I would say more than 50% have blinders on. Facebook is a good example....people constantly posting praises to god for their kids getting good grades, asking for prayers because they are sick, etc. (maybe they should have prayed to not get sick?)

It boils down to arrogance and ignorance and it's extremely annoying.

pandora

lets just remember to feel for others and be kind whatever our beliefs

EddieLedBetter

Ha why wont evolution just evolve a new arm or leg? Or maybe the amputees are just a result of natural selection, survival of the digits?

Gern Blansten

EddieLedBetter wrote:

Ha why wont evolution just evolve a new arm or leg? Or maybe the amputees are just a result of natural selection, survival of the digits?

please tell me you are kidding

Beck..

EddieLedBetter wrote:

Ha why wont evolution just evolve a new arm or leg? Or maybe the amputees are just a result of natural selection, survival of the digits?

I think someone needs to tune into sanity Fm

EddieLedBetter

Satirically speaking.

What is the "strange excuse" or "convoluted rationalizations" that science and or intelligent college answers creates for evolution breaking the 2nd law of thermodynamics aka the law of entropy?

CJMST3K

Gern Blansten wrote:

10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer

EddieLedBetter wrote:

Ha why wont evolution just evolve a new arm or leg? Or maybe the amputees are just a result of natural selection, survival of the digits?

Hahahaha... I suppose my answer should be why start being logical now?!

I thought GB's post with 10 questions was valid, and yet, no one on the religious side dares to answer.

I'll answer your question though ELB, in hope you'll return the favor and answer GB's questions. Deal?

Evolution happens on a long term scale, either adapting to large-scale change, or as a mutation that coincidentally helps that one creature survive, and it's spawn keep the mutation, and continue on with the mutation/evolution. Evolution does not solve an individual creature losing an arm, leg, eyeball, etc - unless it's a problem that is so common with that species, that the creature evolves it's own defense, such as a lizard's tail which regenerates.


Ok... I answered your direct question. Will you answer maybe a few of the 10 questions?

(GB - would you please transcribe the 10 questions from the video to make it easier for someone who is actually willing to answer to do so?)

dpmay

CJMST3K wrote:

I thought GB's post with 10 questions was valid, and yet, no one on the religious side dares to answer.

uhm, pardon me, but i have addressed nearly every one of these questions in this thread, most of them directly in my first post. i did this because i wanted to start a discussion about them - the actual questions the dude raises. they are good questions (well some of them anyway) and they are worth considering by both god-believers and god-non-believers as well.

and what is no one "dares" answer supposed to mean anyway?

dpmay

Gern Blansten wrote:

Honestly the one thing that bothers me the most about christians is their arrogance

Not all christians certainly but I would say more than 50% have blinders on. Facebook is a good example....people constantly posting praises to god for their kids getting good grades, asking for prayers because they are sick, etc. (maybe they should have prayed to not get sick?)

It boils down to arrogance and ignorance and it's extremely annoying.

i agree - arrogance is annoying. but i would argue it is a generally human foible more than it is a specifically christian foible.

what is more arrogant - believing a god answers your prayers, or telling someone that they are hurting their species because of their religious beliefs? i think it's the second...