those who state that religon dosnt effect others is just plain wrong
Wold trade centres anyone
Homosexual rites
Abotrtion
wars
ethnic cleansing
all lay at the feet of religon. All religons
So to state that religom only effect those with faith well thats very wrong
and faith
Faith in somthing you have only ever been told about by somebody else
If I walked up to you in the street and asked for $50 and have faith that you will get it back from me would you give it
I think not
sad to see so much faith in stories but not in each other
Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace
wow. crazy. after checking the posts in this thread yesterday I started to sing that to myself. one of the greatest songs ever written, if not THE greatest.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
alright, i don't want to turn this thread into the footnotes for a theology paper, but i do want to share with you some of what i have read regarding this issue. namely, must one be explicitly christian to attain the salvation christians believe in?
- the current catechism of the catholic church (a sort of detailed description of all aspects of the catholic faith) says this: "the Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as 'a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at lenght have life.'" (the quote is from the lumen gentium, one of the documents to come from vatican II).
- in 1863, pope pius declared pesons invincibly ignorant of the christian religion who observed the natural law and were ready to obey god would be able to attain eternal life, thanks to the working of divine grace within them.
- in 1943, pius xii indicated in his mystici corporis, that there are actually two ways of belonging to the church: in actual fact (in re) or by desire (in voto). those belonging to the church in voto were ordered to the church by the dynamism of grace itself, which related them to the church in a way that they were in some sense in it.
- cardinal cushing of boston in a 1949 letter declared that one could belong to the church not only by actual membership, but also by an even unconcious desire.
- some texts conceived at vatican II in 1964 stated that god's universal salvic will means that he gives non-christians, including even athiests, sufficient help to be saved.
- in 2005, pope benedict said "Whoever seeks peace and the good of the community with a pure conscience, and keeps alive the desire for the transcendent, will be saved even if he lacks biblical faith."
(most of these paraphrasing come from a really interesing paper from avery cardinal dulles called 'who can be saved?').
in any case, i am not here to defend any of these positions. i just offer them as evidence that, even within the christian community, not everyone believes that, to put it one way, true christianity is standing on a street corner telling everyone they're going to hell.
but should they?
if you grew up on a deserted island and a bible dropped from the clouds wouldn't you be a true fundamentalist?
The Catholics have made religion very convenient for themselves....I'm more likely to support the fundy's
my only point, as i have already stated, is to point out that there are varying schools of thought on these issues - that the christian faith does have room for diversity of opinion on this issue in particular. and that opinions do change over time, even inside the christian community. and even from a strictly biblical point of view (which i have never adopted in this thread, on purpose) there are verses which imply god wants everyone to be saved.
as for catholics making it convenient - man, i don't think any catholic would say that. the common knock on catholicism is that it instills guilt in people, makes them think everything is wrong. i wouldn't call that convenient.
But does it bother you that the story of Jesus appears to be adapted from other religions? Have you ever read about Mithra and Vishnu? The similarities are striking. And remember....they used to claim that Caesar was born of a virgin so that was a very prevalent thread at the time.
My journey to non-belief was a chipping away process....chipping away at jesus was probably my last piece
One thing that amazed me was discovery the number of writers that existed at that time....they would keep diaries about their day to day lives...what they ate, what they did in their daily lives, etc....the question would be why weren't these people writing about this Jesus guy who was in the area performing all these miracles?
why did it take decades for the gospels to begin being written? why weren't they madly jotting down all these stories and spreading them around the region?
that was big for me
i know a little bit of these similarities - this is not the first i have encountered them. but i have not studied them closely. sometime i will.
i do find it interesting that chipping away at jesus was the last piece for you. for me, belief in some kind of god is a lot easier to have than the specific kind of faith required for jesus.
and ohbytheway, i don't appreciate this very much:
yeah that's why I have such a hard time with this because I know these people haven't dug that deep....once you start discovering these things it's kind of a no brainer
..... for me, belief in some kind of god is a lot easier to have than the specific kind of faith required for jesus.
I do believe that Jesus could have existed. I am sure there was a man named Jesus (quite a common name) who may have been a prophet/speaker/dissident that lived then. After all, we have plenty of those nowadays! But... Jesus son of god? Born from the 'virgin' Mary? Died for our sins? Hmmmmmm......
But does it bother you that the story of Jesus appears to be adapted from other religions? Have you ever read about Mithra and Vishnu? The similarities are striking. And remember....they used to claim that Caesar was born of a virgin so that was a very prevalent thread at the time.
My journey to non-belief was a chipping away process....chipping away at jesus was probably my last piece
One thing that amazed me was discovery the number of writers that existed at that time....they would keep diaries about their day to day lives...what they ate, what they did in their daily lives, etc....the question would be why weren't these people writing about this Jesus guy who was in the area performing all these miracles?
why did it take decades for the gospels to begin being written? why weren't they madly jotting down all these stories and spreading them around the region?
that was big for me
i know a little bit of these similarities - this is not the first i have encountered them. but i have not studied them closely. sometime i will.
i do find it interesting that chipping away at jesus was the last piece for you. for me, belief in some kind of god is a lot easier to have than the specific kind of faith required for jesus.
and ohbytheway, i don't appreciate this very much:
yeah that's why I have such a hard time with this because I know these people haven't dug that deep....once you start discovering these things it's kind of a no brainer
My discoveries about Jesus were the nail in the coffin of my christian beliefs but to this day I leave open the possibility of "god" but with what science keeps uncovering I think that becomes less and less likely.
Maybe god is a human that created us in a petri dish on a piece of moldy cheese....but then who created the human?
Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018) The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
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Matthew 7:13–14
13 “You can enter God’s Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell* is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose that way. 14 But the gateway to life is very narrow and the road is difficult, and only a few ever find it.
Matthew 7:13–14
13 “You can enter God’s Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell* is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose that way. 14 But the gateway to life is very narrow and the road is difficult, and only a few ever find it.
My discoveries about Jesus were the nail in the coffin of my christian beliefs but to this day I leave open the possibility of "god" but with what science keeps uncovering I think that becomes less and less likely.
Maybe god is a human that created us in a petri dish on a piece of moldy cheese....but then who created the human?
yeah man, that's what i meant: belief that god is possible is easier than belief that jesus was/is who christians say he was/is. and i say that as a christian myself.
and i read a little more about mithraism, and am (prehaps not surprisingly) unconvinced.
one thing i didn't really mention in my justification for my christian faith above is that, for me, there's also an emotional, visceral element that i really can't describe. maybe that validates all the negative suspicions you had about me...oh well.
My discoveries about Jesus were the nail in the coffin of my christian beliefs but to this day I leave open the possibility of "god" but with what science keeps uncovering I think that becomes less and less likely.
Maybe god is a human that created us in a petri dish on a piece of moldy cheese....but then who created the human?
yeah man, that's what i meant: belief that god is possible is easier than belief that jesus was/is who christians say he was/is. and i say that as a christian myself.
and i read a little more about mithraism, and am (prehaps not surprisingly) unconvinced.
one thing i didn't really mention in my justification for my christian faith above is that, for me, there's also an emotional, visceral element that i really can't describe. maybe that validates all the negative suspicions you had about me...oh well.
so you discovered Mithraism....you understand the similarities between Mithra and Christ....and you realize that the Mithra stories originated a thousand years before Christ....and that doesn't make you wonder?
I wasn't thinking that you would start following Mithra....just that it might strike you that "hey...it sounds like this Jesus guy was just a continuation of the Mithra fable"
I mean come on....it's obvious
Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018) The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago 2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy 2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE) 2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston 2020: Oakland, Oakland:2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana 2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville 2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt2
My discoveries about Jesus were the nail in the coffin of my christian beliefs but to this day I leave open the possibility of "god" but with what science keeps uncovering I think that becomes less and less likely.
Maybe god is a human that created us in a petri dish on a piece of moldy cheese....but then who created the human?
yeah man, that's what i meant: belief that god is possible is easier than belief that jesus was/is who christians say he was/is. and i say that as a christian myself.
and i read a little more about mithraism, and am (prehaps not surprisingly) unconvinced.
one thing i didn't really mention in my justification for my christian faith above is that, for me, there's also an emotional, visceral element that i really can't describe. maybe that validates all the negative suspicions you had about me...oh well.
so you discovered Mithraism....you understand the similarities between Mithra and Christ....and you realize that the Mithra stories originated a thousand years before Christ....and that doesn't make you wonder?
I wasn't thinking that you would start following Mithra....just that it might strike you that "hey...it sounds like this Jesus guy was just a continuation of the Mithra fable"
I mean come on....it's obvious
I had never heard of mithraism. I did some digging and everything I found says it was popular amongst Roman Empire soldiers during the 1st-4th centuries AD. One site even talks about the similarities between mithraism and christianity and says it is likely that mithraism borrowed from christianity. I havn't found anything about the existence of mithraism BC let alone 1,000 years BC. Maybe i just havn't found it?
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Indy 5/7/10 Alpine Valley x2 2011 Wrigley 2013 Milwaukee 14 Telluride 16
[/quote]
I had never heard of mithraism. I did some digging and everything I found says it was popular amongst Roman Empire soldiers during the 1st-4th centuries AD. One site even talks about the similarities between mithraism and christianity and says it is likely that mithraism borrowed from christianity. I havn't found anything about the existence of mithraism BC let alone 1,000 years BC. Maybe i just havn't found it?[/quote]
I actually doubt the existence of god more than the existence of Jesus. I mean, don't historians, theists and atheists alike, agree that there is enough historical evidence that Jesus Christ was an actual person?
Rising from the dead being another story entirely, but I digress......
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
(GB - would you please transcribe the 10 questions from the video to make it easier for someone who is actually willing to answer to do so?)
Here you go...
1. Why won't god heal amputees? (1:22)
2. Why are there so many starving people in our world? (2:27)
6. Why do bad things happen to good people? (5:26)
8. How do we explain the fact that Jesus has never appeared to you? (5:43)
To believe in god you must make all sorts of strange rationalizations and excuses....to those that do not believe in god all the answers make complete sense.
I have quickly looked at the previous 13 pages of this post and would like to make the following comments:
1) I find it very interesting that human beings that have a brain weighing 1300-1400 grams think this gives them enough "power" to argue for or against the existence of God. I find arrogant anyone who believe that their small brain, which is entrapped in a minuscule human body in comparison to the immensity of the universe, has enough power to refute the existence of God. Humans will never be able to understand the "logic" of God because our brain does not have the power to do so. Humans will never be able to understand why disasters occur because their brain will never have the power to understand "the big picture". Do not ask me what the big picture is, as my brain is also too small. Possibly after we are freed from the physical limitations of living in human bodies will we be able to have a better understanding.
2) The fact that science has not proven the existence of God does not prove he does not exist. Bacteria and viruses existed before the microscope could prove their existence. Far away galaxies existed before telescopes were created. Ultraviolet and infrared red light exist even if our eyes cannot see them. Electricity and vibrations exist in water despite the fact that humans cannot sense them. Shanks have the physical bodies to feel these later physical entities. The fact that we do no see ghosts does not prove they do not exist. The might, we just do not know yet. If God exist, it is not in his plan for us to understand these things at this point in time.
The human understanding of the universe (and God) is purely limited by our senses and the tools humans have been able to create so far in time. As we create more tools to explore the universe, our understanding of it will increase, which might get us closer to understanding the reality of God. That being said it may take millions of years to get there. I believe this is why millions of intelligent scientists who pride themselves in using logic and science on a daily basis can still believe in God as they understand their humanly limited science is not almighty and only slowly developing. To say that God does not exist at this point in time is giving humans and science way too much credit, in my, oh so limited (by my small brain), opinion.
Peace.
I wish I was as fortunate, as fortunate as me.
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(GB - would you please transcribe the 10 questions from the video to make it easier for someone who is actually willing to answer to do so?)
Here you go...
1. Why won't god heal amputees? (1:22)
2. Why are there so many starving people in our world? (2:27)
6. Why do bad things happen to good people? (5:26)
8. How do we explain the fact that Jesus has never appeared to you? (5:43)
To believe in god you must make all sorts of strange rationalizations and excuses....to those that do not believe in god all the answers make complete sense.
I have quickly looked at the previous 13 pages of this post and would like to make the following comments:
1) I find it very interesting that human beings that have a brain weighing 1300-1400 grams think this gives them enough "power" to argue for or against the existence of God. I find arrogant anyone who believe that their small brain, which is entrapped in a minuscule human body in comparison to the immensity of the universe, has enough power to refute the existence of God. Humans will never be able to understand the "logic" of God because our brain does not have the power to do so. Humans will never be able to understand why disasters occur because their brain will never have the power to understand "the big picture". Do not ask me what the big picture is, as my brain is also too small. Possibly after we are freed from the physical limitations of living in human bodies will we be able to have a better understanding.
2) The fact that science has not proven the existence of God does not prove he does not exist. Bacteria and viruses existed before the microscope could prove their existence. Far away galaxies existed before telescopes were created. Ultraviolet and infrared red light exist even if our eyes cannot see them. Electricity and vibrations exist in water despite the fact that humans cannot sense them. Shanks have the physical bodies to feel these later physical entities. The fact that we do no see ghosts does not prove they do not exist. The might, we just do not know yet. If God exist, it is not in his plan for us to understand these things at this point in time.
The human understanding of the universe (and God) is purely limited by our senses and the tools humans have been able to create so far in time. As we create more tools to explore the universe, our understanding of it will increase, which might get us closer to understanding the reality of God. That being said it may take millions of years to get there. I believe this is why millions of intelligent scientists who pride themselves in using logic and science on a daily basis can still believe in God as they understand their humanly limited science is not almighty and only slowly developing. To say that God does not exist at this point in time is giving humans and science way too much credit, in my, oh so limited (by my small brain), opinion.
Peace.
but using your logic, isn't it arrogant of you to claim you know that there is something beyond what our brains comprehend? what if this is it? you don't know there is anymore than I know there isn't, so how can you judge the other side? that argument is completely hypocritical.
God may or may not exist to my little brain. What makes your admitted little brain able to see him more than us? Is your little brain bigger than mine that makes your "reality" more plausible than ours?
How can you call one side arrogant and not admit that you are as well, when we both have as much or as little knowledge as the other?
Hello, pot. I'm kettle. Yes, I am black. But so are you.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
(GB - would you please transcribe the 10 questions from the video to make it easier for someone who is actually willing to answer to do so?)
Here you go...
1. Why won't god heal amputees? (1:22)
2. Why are there so many starving people in our world? (2:27)
6. Why do bad things happen to good people? (5:26)
8. How do we explain the fact that Jesus has never appeared to you? (5:43)
To believe in god you must make all sorts of strange rationalizations and excuses....to those that do not believe in god all the answers make complete sense.
I have quickly looked at the previous 13 pages of this post and would like to make the following comments:
1) I find it very interesting that human beings that have a brain weighing 1300-1400 grams think this gives them enough "power" to argue for or against the existence of God. I find arrogant anyone who believe that their small brain, which is entrapped in a minuscule human body in comparison to the immensity of the universe, has enough power to refute the existence of God. Humans will never be able to understand the "logic" of God because our brain does not have the power to do so. Humans will never be able to understand why disasters occur because their brain will never have the power to understand "the big picture". Do not ask me what the big picture is, as my brain is also too small. Possibly after we are freed from the physical limitations of living in human bodies will we be able to have a better understanding.
2) The fact that science has not proven the existence of God does not prove he does not exist. Bacteria and viruses existed before the microscope could prove their existence. Far away galaxies existed before telescopes were created. Ultraviolet and infrared red light exist even if our eyes cannot see them. Electricity and vibrations exist in water despite the fact that humans cannot sense them. Shanks have the physical bodies to feel these later physical entities. The fact that we do no see ghosts does not prove they do not exist. The might, we just do not know yet. If God exist, it is not in his plan for us to understand these things at this point in time.
The human understanding of the universe (and God) is purely limited by our senses and the tools humans have been able to create so far in time. As we create more tools to explore the universe, our understanding of it will increase, which might get us closer to understanding the reality of God. That being said it may take millions of years to get there. I believe this is why millions of intelligent scientists who pride themselves in using logic and science on a daily basis can still believe in God as they understand their humanly limited science is not almighty and only slowly developing. To say that God does not exist at this point in time is giving humans and science way too much credit, in my, oh so limited (by my small brain), opinion.
Peace.
All fair points...however I think most of the non-believers here think that it is possible god exists, at least I do. Another thing to look at is the same line of thinking in your post can also bring us to other possibilities. Maybe when or if our current human limitations are put behind us, and our understanding of the universe is more complete, god will not be there. To say, at this time, that either or any scenario will certainly occur is foolhardy however I would say since there are an infinite of possibilites in this line of reasoning and god is but one of them, it is infinitely more likely that there is no god.
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win ."
Wow! What an aggressive tone to your response. You should have properly read my post especially the part where I say that I fully admit that my brain, as everyone else, is too small to answer the question if God exist or not. In the first paragraph I clearly stated "Do not ask me what the big picture is as my brain is also too small". When I stated humans will never be able to answer this question how come you thought I excluded myself from this group. I did not and never pretended that I know the answer to this question. I tried to write my comment without answering this question. The only points I wanted to make is that our brains are too small for such question and that science is extremely limited. There is no black kettle here as I am not calling anyone anything. I only stated that none of us can know if God exist or not due to our physically limited state of being, period. I did not call one side arrogant without calling the other the same. I called everyone who tried to answer the question "does God exist", regardless of the answer they give, arrogant. Raising the question is interesting but in the end none of us will ever be able to prove anything anyway.
To marking ball
I certainly appreciate your comment (ant its better tone) and would agree that there is the possibility that God does not exist. I do not know and may never know. This is where having faith or not comes into play but still does not answer the question with certainty either way. This goes back to my two points that our physical form is limiting us from understanding things and that science in 2010 if not able to answer this question either way.
Peace
I wish I was as fortunate, as fortunate as me.
Montreal 20/06/03, Montreal 15/09/05, Ottawa 16/09/05. Montreal 1 (EV) 09/08/08; Albany 2 (EV) 09/06/09.
Toronto 21/08/09; Cleveland 9/05/10; Buffalo 10/05/10. Montreal 7/09/11; Toronto 11/9/11; Toronto 12/9/11; Ottawa 14/9/11.
London 16/07/13; Pittsburg 11/10/13; Buffalo 12/10/13. Moline (No Code) 17/10/14, St Paul 19/10/14, Milwaukee (Yield) 20/10/14.
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But does it bother you that the story of Jesus appears to be adapted from other religions? Have you ever read about Mithra and Vishnu? The similarities are striking. And remember....they used to claim that Caesar was born of a virgin so that was a very prevalent thread at the time.
Crazy, Gern is some what capable of putting faith in what men from ancient history have written or passed down about a supposed God. Everything on the internet is truth!
My journey to non-belief was a chipping away process....chipping away at jesus was probably my last piece
One thing that amazed me was discovery the number of writers that existed at that time....they would keep diaries about their day to day lives...what they ate, what they did in their daily lives, etc....the question would be why weren't these people writing about this Jesus guy who was in the area performing all these miracles?
why did it take decades for the gospels to begin being written? why weren't they madly jotting down all these stories and spreading them around the region?
that was big for me
You fail to realize that after the time of Jesus everyone who was a writer wasnt willing to be put to death by a Roman empire for writing about Jesus. Only a devout few writers of that time were actually willing to give up their lives to write these things and pass them down. If you lived then and knew that you would be beheaded or crucified upside down for merely writing about Jesus, someone you have no faith in, would you write about him?
Those who werent brave enough to die for the cause kept the story alive by word of mouth until someone who God worked through who was willing to die, Paul for example, put the words down.
Both Mithraism and Christianity became popular in Rome during the second century, A.D. As a Persian religion, Mithraism was far older and more venerable at the time, having been practiced as early as 1500, B.C. during the Aryan migration into both Persia and India. This was when the early Vedic god Mitra, similar to Mithra, began to be worshipped in India. During the sixth century, B.C., the Persian mystic Zarathustra (Zoroaster, as described in Greece) subordinated the story of Mithra to a grand epic struggle between a god (Ahura Mazda) and a devil (Ahriman) that supposedly culminates in judgment day, when all souls can expect to be consigned either to heaven or hell. Whether perceived as the primary god in his own right or subordinated to Ahura Mazda, Mithra was worshipped across Asia from the Indus River to the Black Sea when his religion finally arrived in Rome in a version that first emerged perhaps a hundred years before Christ.
Rome's initial exposure to Mithraism was probably through Cilician "traders" (pirates from the coast of Turkey on the Mediterranean), and with sufficient curiosity value that the Emperor Nero (54-68) supposedly considered becoming a Mithraist. After expeditions to the eastern front by the Emperor Trajan and others in the mid-second century, Mithraism quickly spread to all frontiers of the Roman empire guarded by Roman legions transferred from the Near East. Mithraism was even practiced in Great Britain, where numerous Mithraic temples have been excavated.
Christianity, on the other hand, took at least a century to become a major religious movement competitive with others in the Roman Empire. Besides Mithraism, these included Manichaenism, Gnosticism, and the worship of Heracles, Cybele, Isis, Osiris, Dionysus Zagreus, and the god Serapis as a syncretistic fusion of Osiris and Dionysus--also the religions and mysteries of Jews, Stoics, Pythagoreans, Orphics, and Neoplatonists. The early history of Christian doctrine in the authorship of the Gospels may be charted as follows:
so if we can agree on 1500 AD then review this....
SIMILARITIES BETWEEN MITHRA AND CHRIST:
1. Both Mithras and Christ were portrayed as young and beardless; both sometimes appeared in the shepherd's role, and both saved mankind by performing sacrifical deeds.
2. Both Mithras and Christ had virgin births in the sense that they were conceived without any sexual union between man and woman. Christ's father was said to be God, while Mithras was said to have had no father or mother, having emerged as an adult from a large rock.
3. Both Mithraism and Christianity celebrated the birth of their god on the winter solstice, the 25th of December according to the Julian calendar. Both featured the sharing of presents, the use of Christmas trees with candles, and nativity scenes that included shepherds attracted by a sacred light. The special importance of this solstice ceremony to Mithraists would be indicated by the name Mithras, which derived from Meitras, which in Greek numerology refers to the number 365, the last day of the solar year at the winter solstice.
4. Both the Old Testament and Mithraic legend told of the first human couple having been created. Mithra supposedly kept a watchful eye over their descendents until Ahriman caused a draught that caused such thirst that they begged Mithra for water.
5. Both told of a major flood, in the case of Mithra through his having shot an arrow into a stone cliff to quench mankind's thirst. Unfortunately, the entire world's population was drowned in a flood produced by the water spout that gushed from the hole his arrow produced. One man alone (a Noah figure borrowed from the earlier Sumerian myth of Atrahasis) was warned in time and could therefore save himself and his cattle in an ark.
6. Both Mithraism and Christianity emphasized mankind's redemption resulting from a sacrificial death followed by the god's ascent to heaven. In the case of Christ, it was the god himself (or his son) who was sacrificed; in the case of Mithra, it was a sacred steer that Mithra sacrificed.
7. Both featured resurrection through sacrifice. Mithraism more obviously drew upon spring equinox fertility myths by depicting Mithra's sacrificial bull with a tail that consisted of sheaves of wheat that were supposedly scattered throughout the world once it was slaughtered. Also, the bull's blood formed the milky way, allowing human souls both to be born and to return to the heavens after death.
8. Both told of a Last Supper linked with the blood sacrifice whose symbolic recreation by eating bread and wine provided salvation for all worshippers. After Mithra killed the bull depicted in Mithraic art, he feasted upon it with the Sun God and other companions before ascending to the heavens in the sun god's chariot. The sequence was slightly different in the New Testament: Christ's Last Supper necessarily preceded his crucifixion rather than following it, after which he ascended to heaven.
9. Both emphasized purification through baptism, Mithraists by washing themselves in the blood of sacrificial oxen. While dying oxen bled to death on lattice floors built over their heads, initiates both drank and washed themselves with the blood that dripped on them.
10. Both featured secret temples located underground. For Christians it was a temporary expedient to avoid persecution, but for Mithraists it became a permanent institution, each small chapel, called a Mithraeum, having seated no more than fifty worshippers and having been constructed to point from east to west. Rounded ceilings were painted blue and imbedded with gemstones. There were no windows except for a few chapels in which tiny holes in the ceiling that had been bored to let in the light of certain stars at particular times of the year.
11. Both held Sunday to be sacred.
12. Both encouraged asceticism. Mithraists were expected to resist sensuality and to abstain from eating certain foods.
13. Both emphasized charity. Mithra was identified as the god of help who protected his worshippers, whatever their tribulations in life.
14. Last and probably least, both emphasized a rock, Mithra having been born from one and the Vatican having been built on one.
Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018) The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago 2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy 2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE) 2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston 2020: Oakland, Oakland:2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana 2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville 2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt2
Eusebius of Caesarea (circa 283-371 CE) wrote: "The religion of Jesus Christ is neither new nor strange."
St. Augustine of Hippo (354-430 CE) wrote: "This, in our day, is the Christian religion, not as having been unknown in former times, but as having recently received that name."
Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018) The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago 2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy 2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE) 2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston 2020: Oakland, Oakland:2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana 2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville 2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt2
You fail to realize that after the time of Jesus everyone who was a writer wasnt willing to be put to death by a Roman empire for writing about Jesus. Only a devout few writers of that time were actually willing to give up their lives to write these things and pass them down. If you lived then and knew that you would be beheaded or crucified upside down for merely writing about Jesus, someone you have no faith in, would you write about him?
Those who werent brave enough to die for the cause kept the story alive by word of mouth until someone who God worked through who was willing to die, Paul for example, put the words down.
you fail to realize that it is quite possible that they weren't writing about Jesus because there was no Jesus
Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018) The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago 2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy 2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE) 2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston 2020: Oakland, Oakland:2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana 2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville 2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt2
Wow! What an aggressive tone to your response. You should have properly read my post especially the part where I say that I fully admit that my brain, as everyone else, is too small to answer the question if God exist or not. In the first paragraph I clearly stated "Do not ask me what the big picture is as my brain is also too small". When I stated humans will never be able to answer this question how come you thought I excluded myself from this group. I did not and never pretended that I know the answer to this question. I tried to write my comment without answering this question. The only points I wanted to make is that our brains are too small for such question and that science is extremely limited. There is no black kettle here as I am not calling anyone anything. I only stated that none of us can know if God exist or not due to our physically limited state of being, period. I did not call one side arrogant without calling the other the same. I called everyone who tried to answer the question "does God exist", regardless of the answer they give, arrogant. Raising the question is interesting but in the end none of us will ever be able to prove anything anyway.
To marking ball
I certainly appreciate your comment (ant its better tone) and would agree that there is the possibility that God does not exist. I do not know and may never know. This is where having faith or not comes into play but still does not answer the question with certainty either way. This goes back to my two points that our physical form is limiting us from understanding things and that science in 2010 if not able to answer this question either way.
Peace
not aggressive at all. you can take my tone any way you want. I was merely pointing out that you seem to air on the side of believing, and pointing out that just because science can't prove god is real doesn't mean he doesn't exist. that's obvious. christians seem to think they HAVE proof, and that's bogus to me.
no aggression in this one either, by the way.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
You fail to realize that after the time of Jesus everyone who was a writer wasnt willing to be put to death by a Roman empire for writing about Jesus. Only a devout few writers of that time were actually willing to give up their lives to write these things and pass them down. If you lived then and knew that you would be beheaded or crucified upside down for merely writing about Jesus, someone you have no faith in, would you write about him?
Those who werent brave enough to die for the cause kept the story alive by word of mouth until someone who God worked through who was willing to die, Paul for example, put the words down.
you fail to realize that it is quite possible that they weren't writing about Jesus because there was no Jesus
Wow! What an aggressive tone to your response. You should have properly read my post especially the part where I say that I fully admit that my brain, as everyone else, is too small to answer the question if God exist or not. In the first paragraph I clearly stated "Do not ask me what the big picture is as my brain is also too small". When I stated humans will never be able to answer this question how come you thought I excluded myself from this group. I did not and never pretended that I know the answer to this question. I tried to write my comment without answering this question. The only points I wanted to make is that our brains are too small for such question and that science is extremely limited. There is no black kettle here as I am not calling anyone anything. I only stated that none of us can know if God exist or not due to our physically limited state of being, period. I did not call one side arrogant without calling the other the same. I called everyone who tried to answer the question "does God exist", regardless of the answer they give, arrogant. Raising the question is interesting but in the end none of us will ever be able to prove anything anyway.
To marking ball
I certainly appreciate your comment (ant its better tone) and would agree that there is the possibility that God does not exist. I do not know and may never know. This is where having faith or not comes into play but still does not answer the question with certainty either way. This goes back to my two points that our physical form is limiting us from understanding things and that science in 2010 if not able to answer this question either way.
Peace
not aggressive at all. you can take my tone any way you want. I was merely pointing out that you seem to air on the side of believing, and pointing out that just because science can't prove god is real doesn't mean he doesn't exist. that's obvious. christians seem to think they HAVE proof, and that's bogus to me.
if there's anything sad about this, it's that post. gimme a break. people trying to convince us we're not happy, when nothing could be further than the truth (at least in my case, and also stated by Gern). typical religious recruitment MO: convince people they aren't happy so they'll join the cause. and you people wonder why some consider christianity a crutch or for the weak. you perpetuate your own negative stigma.
such a crock.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
if there's anything sad about this, it's that post. gimme a break. people trying to convince us we're not happy, when nothing could be further than the truth (at least in my case, and also stated by Gern). typical religious recruitment MO: convince people they aren't happy so they'll join the cause. and you people wonder why some consider christianity a crutch or for the weak. you perpetuate your own negative stigma.
such a crock.
I never said you weren't happy in this life. It's funny how you both interpreted what I said that way.
Hmnn......
if there's anything sad about this, it's that post. gimme a break. people trying to convince us we're not happy, when nothing could be further than the truth (at least in my case, and also stated by Gern). typical religious recruitment MO: convince people they aren't happy so they'll join the cause. and you people wonder why some consider christianity a crutch or for the weak. you perpetuate your own negative stigma.
such a crock.
I never said you weren't happy in this life. It's funny how you both interpreted what I said that way.
Hmnn......
fine. I'll bite. Then please enlighten us on what exactly "I'm sad for you" is supposed to mean? This is the exact same type of drivel that ELB and Godfather has been feeding us the past while, so while I can concede it's possible that you didn't mean it that way, I think given what we've been hitting our heads against the last while, you can understand why it came across as such. Most of the other believers on this thread have said point blank that you aren't happy until you believe.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Comments
Wold trade centres anyone
Homosexual rites
Abotrtion
wars
ethnic cleansing
all lay at the feet of religon. All religons
So to state that religom only effect those with faith well thats very wrong
and faith
Faith in somthing you have only ever been told about by somebody else
If I walked up to you in the street and asked for $50 and have faith that you will get it back from me would you give it
I think not
sad to see so much faith in stories but not in each other
Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace
The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt2
wow. crazy. after checking the posts in this thread yesterday I started to sing that to myself. one of the greatest songs ever written, if not THE greatest.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
my only point, as i have already stated, is to point out that there are varying schools of thought on these issues - that the christian faith does have room for diversity of opinion on this issue in particular. and that opinions do change over time, even inside the christian community. and even from a strictly biblical point of view (which i have never adopted in this thread, on purpose) there are verses which imply god wants everyone to be saved.
as for catholics making it convenient - man, i don't think any catholic would say that. the common knock on catholicism is that it instills guilt in people, makes them think everything is wrong. i wouldn't call that convenient.
i know a little bit of these similarities - this is not the first i have encountered them. but i have not studied them closely. sometime i will.
i do find it interesting that chipping away at jesus was the last piece for you. for me, belief in some kind of god is a lot easier to have than the specific kind of faith required for jesus.
and ohbytheway, i don't appreciate this very much:
I do believe that Jesus could have existed. I am sure there was a man named Jesus (quite a common name) who may have been a prophet/speaker/dissident that lived then. After all, we have plenty of those nowadays! But... Jesus son of god? Born from the 'virgin' Mary? Died for our sins? Hmmmmmm......
My discoveries about Jesus were the nail in the coffin of my christian beliefs but to this day I leave open the possibility of "god" but with what science keeps uncovering I think that becomes less and less likely.
Maybe god is a human that created us in a petri dish on a piece of moldy cheese....but then who created the human?
The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt2
13 “You can enter God’s Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell* is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose that way. 14 But the gateway to life is very narrow and the road is difficult, and only a few ever find it.
want to be enlightened"
yeah man, that's what i meant: belief that god is possible is easier than belief that jesus was/is who christians say he was/is. and i say that as a christian myself.
and i read a little more about mithraism, and am (prehaps not surprisingly) unconvinced.
one thing i didn't really mention in my justification for my christian faith above is that, for me, there's also an emotional, visceral element that i really can't describe. maybe that validates all the negative suspicions you had about me...oh well.
so you discovered Mithraism....you understand the similarities between Mithra and Christ....and you realize that the Mithra stories originated a thousand years before Christ....and that doesn't make you wonder?
I wasn't thinking that you would start following Mithra....just that it might strike you that "hey...it sounds like this Jesus guy was just a continuation of the Mithra fable"
I mean come on....it's obvious
The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt2
Missoula 6/20/98
Alpine Valley 6/26/98 & 6/27/98
Alpine Valley 10/8/00
Champaign 4/23/03
Alpine Valley 6/21/03
Missoula 8/29/05
Chicago 5/16 & 17/06
Grand Rapids 5/19/06
Summerfest 6/29/06 & 6/30/06
Tampa 6/12/08
Chicago 8/23/09
Indy 5/7/10
Alpine Valley x2 2011
Wrigley 2013
Milwaukee 14
Telluride 16
I had never heard of mithraism. I did some digging and everything I found says it was popular amongst Roman Empire soldiers during the 1st-4th centuries AD. One site even talks about the similarities between mithraism and christianity and says it is likely that mithraism borrowed from christianity. I havn't found anything about the existence of mithraism BC let alone 1,000 years BC. Maybe i just havn't found it?[/quote]
http://www.crystalinks.com/mithraism.html
I'm not attesting to it's accuracy but this has some info on dates and such.
"With our thoughts we make the world"
Rising from the dead being another story entirely, but I digress......
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
I have quickly looked at the previous 13 pages of this post and would like to make the following comments:
1) I find it very interesting that human beings that have a brain weighing 1300-1400 grams think this gives them enough "power" to argue for or against the existence of God. I find arrogant anyone who believe that their small brain, which is entrapped in a minuscule human body in comparison to the immensity of the universe, has enough power to refute the existence of God. Humans will never be able to understand the "logic" of God because our brain does not have the power to do so. Humans will never be able to understand why disasters occur because their brain will never have the power to understand "the big picture". Do not ask me what the big picture is, as my brain is also too small. Possibly after we are freed from the physical limitations of living in human bodies will we be able to have a better understanding.
2) The fact that science has not proven the existence of God does not prove he does not exist. Bacteria and viruses existed before the microscope could prove their existence. Far away galaxies existed before telescopes were created. Ultraviolet and infrared red light exist even if our eyes cannot see them. Electricity and vibrations exist in water despite the fact that humans cannot sense them. Shanks have the physical bodies to feel these later physical entities. The fact that we do no see ghosts does not prove they do not exist. The might, we just do not know yet. If God exist, it is not in his plan for us to understand these things at this point in time.
The human understanding of the universe (and God) is purely limited by our senses and the tools humans have been able to create so far in time. As we create more tools to explore the universe, our understanding of it will increase, which might get us closer to understanding the reality of God. That being said it may take millions of years to get there. I believe this is why millions of intelligent scientists who pride themselves in using logic and science on a daily basis can still believe in God as they understand their humanly limited science is not almighty and only slowly developing. To say that God does not exist at this point in time is giving humans and science way too much credit, in my, oh so limited (by my small brain), opinion.
Peace.
Montreal 20/06/03, Montreal 15/09/05, Ottawa 16/09/05. Montreal 1 (EV) 09/08/08; Albany 2 (EV) 09/06/09.
Toronto 21/08/09; Cleveland 9/05/10; Buffalo 10/05/10. Montreal 7/09/11; Toronto 11/9/11; Toronto 12/9/11; Ottawa 14/9/11.
London 16/07/13; Pittsburg 11/10/13; Buffalo 12/10/13. Moline (No Code) 17/10/14, St Paul 19/10/14, Milwaukee (Yield) 20/10/14.
Quebec City 5/5/2016, Ottawa 8/5/2016; Toronto (Binaural) 10/5/2016, Toronto 12/5/2016 (Completed Ten, finally got Oceans).
London 18/7/2018, London 19/7/2018 :(, Boston 2/9/2018.
Quebec City 1/9/2022; Ottawa 3/9/2022; Hamilton 6/9/2022, Toronto 8/9/2022.
but using your logic, isn't it arrogant of you to claim you know that there is something beyond what our brains comprehend? what if this is it? you don't know there is anymore than I know there isn't, so how can you judge the other side? that argument is completely hypocritical.
God may or may not exist to my little brain. What makes your admitted little brain able to see him more than us? Is your little brain bigger than mine that makes your "reality" more plausible than ours?
How can you call one side arrogant and not admit that you are as well, when we both have as much or as little knowledge as the other?
Hello, pot. I'm kettle. Yes, I am black. But so are you.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
All fair points...however I think most of the non-believers here think that it is possible god exists, at least I do. Another thing to look at is the same line of thinking in your post can also bring us to other possibilities. Maybe when or if our current human limitations are put behind us, and our understanding of the universe is more complete, god will not be there. To say, at this time, that either or any scenario will certainly occur is foolhardy however I would say since there are an infinite of possibilites in this line of reasoning and god is but one of them, it is infinitely more likely that there is no god.
"With our thoughts we make the world"
Wow! What an aggressive tone to your response. You should have properly read my post especially the part where I say that I fully admit that my brain, as everyone else, is too small to answer the question if God exist or not. In the first paragraph I clearly stated "Do not ask me what the big picture is as my brain is also too small". When I stated humans will never be able to answer this question how come you thought I excluded myself from this group. I did not and never pretended that I know the answer to this question. I tried to write my comment without answering this question. The only points I wanted to make is that our brains are too small for such question and that science is extremely limited. There is no black kettle here as I am not calling anyone anything. I only stated that none of us can know if God exist or not due to our physically limited state of being, period. I did not call one side arrogant without calling the other the same. I called everyone who tried to answer the question "does God exist", regardless of the answer they give, arrogant. Raising the question is interesting but in the end none of us will ever be able to prove anything anyway.
To marking ball
I certainly appreciate your comment (ant its better tone) and would agree that there is the possibility that God does not exist. I do not know and may never know. This is where having faith or not comes into play but still does not answer the question with certainty either way. This goes back to my two points that our physical form is limiting us from understanding things and that science in 2010 if not able to answer this question either way.
Peace
Montreal 20/06/03, Montreal 15/09/05, Ottawa 16/09/05. Montreal 1 (EV) 09/08/08; Albany 2 (EV) 09/06/09.
Toronto 21/08/09; Cleveland 9/05/10; Buffalo 10/05/10. Montreal 7/09/11; Toronto 11/9/11; Toronto 12/9/11; Ottawa 14/9/11.
London 16/07/13; Pittsburg 11/10/13; Buffalo 12/10/13. Moline (No Code) 17/10/14, St Paul 19/10/14, Milwaukee (Yield) 20/10/14.
Quebec City 5/5/2016, Ottawa 8/5/2016; Toronto (Binaural) 10/5/2016, Toronto 12/5/2016 (Completed Ten, finally got Oceans).
London 18/7/2018, London 19/7/2018 :(, Boston 2/9/2018.
Quebec City 1/9/2022; Ottawa 3/9/2022; Hamilton 6/9/2022, Toronto 8/9/2022.
-Kurt Vonnegut Jr.
You fail to realize that after the time of Jesus everyone who was a writer wasnt willing to be put to death by a Roman empire for writing about Jesus. Only a devout few writers of that time were actually willing to give up their lives to write these things and pass them down. If you lived then and knew that you would be beheaded or crucified upside down for merely writing about Jesus, someone you have no faith in, would you write about him?
Those who werent brave enough to die for the cause kept the story alive by word of mouth until someone who God worked through who was willing to die, Paul for example, put the words down.
so if we can agree on 1500 AD then review this....
SIMILARITIES BETWEEN MITHRA AND CHRIST:
1. Both Mithras and Christ were portrayed as young and beardless; both sometimes appeared in the shepherd's role, and both saved mankind by performing sacrifical deeds.
2. Both Mithras and Christ had virgin births in the sense that they were conceived without any sexual union between man and woman. Christ's father was said to be God, while Mithras was said to have had no father or mother, having emerged as an adult from a large rock.
3. Both Mithraism and Christianity celebrated the birth of their god on the winter solstice, the 25th of December according to the Julian calendar. Both featured the sharing of presents, the use of Christmas trees with candles, and nativity scenes that included shepherds attracted by a sacred light. The special importance of this solstice ceremony to Mithraists would be indicated by the name Mithras, which derived from Meitras, which in Greek numerology refers to the number 365, the last day of the solar year at the winter solstice.
4. Both the Old Testament and Mithraic legend told of the first human couple having been created. Mithra supposedly kept a watchful eye over their descendents until Ahriman caused a draught that caused such thirst that they begged Mithra for water.
5. Both told of a major flood, in the case of Mithra through his having shot an arrow into a stone cliff to quench mankind's thirst. Unfortunately, the entire world's population was drowned in a flood produced by the water spout that gushed from the hole his arrow produced. One man alone (a Noah figure borrowed from the earlier Sumerian myth of Atrahasis) was warned in time and could therefore save himself and his cattle in an ark.
6. Both Mithraism and Christianity emphasized mankind's redemption resulting from a sacrificial death followed by the god's ascent to heaven. In the case of Christ, it was the god himself (or his son) who was sacrificed; in the case of Mithra, it was a sacred steer that Mithra sacrificed.
7. Both featured resurrection through sacrifice. Mithraism more obviously drew upon spring equinox fertility myths by depicting Mithra's sacrificial bull with a tail that consisted of sheaves of wheat that were supposedly scattered throughout the world once it was slaughtered. Also, the bull's blood formed the milky way, allowing human souls both to be born and to return to the heavens after death.
8. Both told of a Last Supper linked with the blood sacrifice whose symbolic recreation by eating bread and wine provided salvation for all worshippers. After Mithra killed the bull depicted in Mithraic art, he feasted upon it with the Sun God and other companions before ascending to the heavens in the sun god's chariot. The sequence was slightly different in the New Testament: Christ's Last Supper necessarily preceded his crucifixion rather than following it, after which he ascended to heaven.
9. Both emphasized purification through baptism, Mithraists by washing themselves in the blood of sacrificial oxen. While dying oxen bled to death on lattice floors built over their heads, initiates both drank and washed themselves with the blood that dripped on them.
10. Both featured secret temples located underground. For Christians it was a temporary expedient to avoid persecution, but for Mithraists it became a permanent institution, each small chapel, called a Mithraeum, having seated no more than fifty worshippers and having been constructed to point from east to west. Rounded ceilings were painted blue and imbedded with gemstones. There were no windows except for a few chapels in which tiny holes in the ceiling that had been bored to let in the light of certain stars at particular times of the year.
11. Both held Sunday to be sacred.
12. Both encouraged asceticism. Mithraists were expected to resist sensuality and to abstain from eating certain foods.
13. Both emphasized charity. Mithra was identified as the god of help who protected his worshippers, whatever their tribulations in life.
14. Last and probably least, both emphasized a rock, Mithra having been born from one and the Vatican having been built on one.
The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt2
St. Augustine of Hippo (354-430 CE) wrote: "This, in our day, is the Christian religion, not as having been unknown in former times, but as having recently received that name."
The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt2
you fail to realize that it is quite possible that they weren't writing about Jesus because there was no Jesus
The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt2
not aggressive at all. you can take my tone any way you want. I was merely pointing out that you seem to air on the side of believing, and pointing out that just because science can't prove god is real doesn't mean he doesn't exist. that's obvious. christians seem to think they HAVE proof, and that's bogus to me.
no aggression in this one either, by the way.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
I'm sad for you
The proof is in our faith
want to be enlightened"
don't be....life couldn't be better
The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt2
heidi klum is secretly in love with me. what? you want me to prove it? i don't have to give any proof, it's true because I believe it to be so!!
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
if there's anything sad about this, it's that post. gimme a break. people trying to convince us we're not happy, when nothing could be further than the truth (at least in my case, and also stated by Gern). typical religious recruitment MO: convince people they aren't happy so they'll join the cause. and you people wonder why some consider christianity a crutch or for the weak. you perpetuate your own negative stigma.
such a crock.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Hmnn......
want to be enlightened"
fine. I'll bite. Then please enlighten us on what exactly "I'm sad for you" is supposed to mean? This is the exact same type of drivel that ELB and Godfather has been feeding us the past while, so while I can concede it's possible that you didn't mean it that way, I think given what we've been hitting our heads against the last while, you can understand why it came across as such. Most of the other believers on this thread have said point blank that you aren't happy until you believe.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014