I'm talking on scripture it's not me judging. It's the author of scripture judging. .
Just like 'the devil made me do it'
The scriptures seem to say that that should one not live their lives in the fear of god, they are doomed. They judge (and condemn!) non believers. You believe and accept the scriptures - you judge along with them.
I'm talking on scripture it's not me judging. It's the author of scripture judging. .
Just like 'the devil made me do it'
The scriptures seem to say that that should one not live their lives in the fear of god, they are doomed. They judge (and condemn!) non believers. You believe and accept the scriptures - you judge along with them.
yes....
Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018) The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago 2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy 2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE) 2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston 2020: Oakland, Oakland:2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana 2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville 2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt2
and in any case, i think pretty much everyone lives their lives based in part on faith in something or another.
Faith in yourself as a human being.
yup, that's what i am saying. is this faith any more or less reasonable than a faith in god?
You know you exist (somewhat concrete evidence of this!), you can feel yourself, see yourself, others see and feel you. You are master of your destiny. No one saw god, no concrete evidence of him being around... I would say faith in myself is more reasonable.
Though we could always go the Descartes way and how he decided god existed.
wait a sec - you believe you could beat a dog, the dog would suffer, and that would not mean the dog has value? i think a dog does have value, and that's why it suffers. if a dog is a valueless, how can the dog suffer? if it has no value, who cares what happens to it? in that case, is it really suffering or just an illusion of suffering created by the dog's brain chemistry?
maybe I didn't follow your point....although I don't really know what your point was I guess
Post edited by Gern Blansten on
Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018) The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago 2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy 2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE) 2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston 2020: Oakland, Oakland:2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana 2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville 2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt2
I have faith in we both can't be right. Either we die and disappear into nothingness or we don't. Either we were created for a purpose with moral standards to uphold or we weren't.
Macroevolution offers no answers to these statements. There is no "right and wrong" when it comes to survival of the fittest.
We're talking about ID and I'm not arguing on the side of the big bang or evolution here. ID says it all just can't come from nothing by accident, right? So how could the intelligent designer not have been designed?
regarding the origin of god (if one exists) and the universe, we have two choices, right?
event 1 was caused by event 2 which was caused by event 3 which was caused by event 4 which was caused by...extending infinitely into the "past."
OR:
event 1 was caused by event 2 which was casued by event 3 which was caused by...which was caused by event 234,454,452,353,343 - or whatever - the sequence has a beginning.
neither of these precludes the possible existence of god.
in the first case, we could have an infinitely existing god, which is what a lot of god-believers think is the nature of god.
in the second case, we have a first cause (here, it's event 234,454,452,353,343 - haha). it would be within the realm of possibility to call that first cause 'god'.
In the first case...the universe itself could also be the thing that is infinitely existing and intelligent design theory is invalid.
In the second case...If the first cause is god, then intelligent design theory is invalid because ID theory explains that it is not reasonable for something to come from nothing, so if the universe can't come from nothing, neither can god.
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win ."
You know you exist (somewhat concrete evidence of this!), you can feel yourself, see yourself, others see and feel you. You are master of your destiny. No one saw god, no concrete evidence of him being around... I would say faith in myself is more reasonable.
Though we could always go the Descartes way and how he decided god existed.
yes, all good points about my existence. however i believe that faith in one's self requires as much logical defense as faith in god. many very bad people have had faith in themselves. was that faith justified more than my own faith in god?
we also have a lot of evidence that people have done a lot to fuck things up around here, and it's just hard for me to put my ultimate faith in something that has been proved so often to be so messed up. humanity, that is. i guess that sounds really negative, and i don't necessarily mean it that way. it's just that, ultimately, humanism places so much faith in something that we have definitely seen to be, shall we say, less than good?
wait a sec - you believe you could beat a dog, the dog would suffer, and that would not mean the dog has value? i think a dog does have value, and that's why it suffers. if a dog is a valueless, how can the dog suffer? if it has no value, who cares what happens to it? in that case, is it really suffering or just an illusion of suffering created by the dog's brain chemistry?
maybe I didn't follow your point....although I don't really know what your point was I guess
i guess i was just wondering why human suffering is real. or the dog's suffering. i believe the suffering of each is, in fact, real. which, to me, means that people (and dogs) have real, inherent value. so my honest question is where does that value come from?
(again, not implying non-god-believers do not value life or anything like that.)
We're talking about ID and I'm not arguing on the side of the big bang or evolution here. ID says it all just can't come from nothing by accident, right? So how could the intelligent designer not have been designed?
regarding the origin of god (if one exists) and the universe, we have two choices, right?
event 1 was caused by event 2 which was caused by event 3 which was caused by event 4 which was caused by...extending infinitely into the "past."
OR:
event 1 was caused by event 2 which was casued by event 3 which was caused by...which was caused by event 234,454,452,353,343 - or whatever - the sequence has a beginning.
neither of these precludes the possible existence of god.
in the first case, we could have an infinitely existing god, which is what a lot of god-believers think is the nature of god.
in the second case, we have a first cause (here, it's event 234,454,452,353,343 - haha). it would be within the realm of possibility to call that first cause 'god'.
In the first case...the universe itself could also be the thing that is infinitely existing and intelligent design theory is invalid.
In the second case...If the first cause is god, then intelligent design theory is invalid because ID theory explains that it is not reasonable for something to come from nothing, so if the universe can't come from nothing, neither can god.
fair points. but i was not arguing for the validity of intelligent design as a scientific theory. nor was i trying to provide a proof of god. i was just responding to the general sentiment (i guess not your's in particular) that god cannot exist because if so, what caused god? i was just pointing out that that particular line of reasoning shouldn't be considered valid in disproving god...
I have faith in we both can't be right. Either we die and disappear into nothingness or we don't. Either we were created for a purpose with moral standards to uphold or we weren't.
Macroevolution offers no answers to these statements. There is no "right and wrong" when it comes to survival of the fittest.
we dont disappear into nothingness. we just become a part of what is around us.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
You know you exist (somewhat concrete evidence of this!), you can feel yourself, see yourself, others see and feel you. You are master of your destiny. No one saw god, no concrete evidence of him being around... I would say faith in myself is more reasonable.
Though we could always go the Descartes way and how he decided god existed.
yes, all good points about my existence. however i believe that faith in one's self requires as much logical defense as faith in god. many very bad people have had faith in themselves. was that faith justified more than my own faith in god?
we also have a lot of evidence that people have done a lot to fuck things up around here, and it's just hard for me to put my ultimate faith in something that has been proved so often to be so messed up. humanity, that is. i guess that sounds really negative, and i don't necessarily mean it that way. it's just that, ultimately, humanism places so much faith in something that we have definitely seen to be, shall we say, less than good?
I'm not saying if placing faith in myself (bad or good!) is more 'justified' than placing faith in a god. I'm saying it seems more reasonable to me.
Humanism... hmmm.... I think I would tend more toward existentialism though humanism does have good points too (it's not about putting your faith in mankind as a whole and thinking humans are inherently good).
As you say, people have done a lot to fuck things up but, if I read what some believers in this thread have to say, the world is cursed - that's why those things happen. Who cursed this world? It can only be god as he is the 'master of the universe' and controls man's destiny (as believers need to follow his rules or be dammed.) I would rather put my faith in a flawed man that can change things than thinking that bad stuff happen because there is a vengeful god who curses the world.
wait a sec - you believe you could beat a dog, the dog would suffer, and that would not mean the dog has value? i think a dog does have value, and that's why it suffers. if a dog is a valueless, how can the dog suffer? if it has no value, who cares what happens to it? in that case, is it really suffering or just an illusion of suffering created by the dog's brain chemistry?
maybe I didn't follow your point....although I don't really know what your point was I guess
i guess i was just wondering why human suffering is real. or the dog's suffering. i believe the suffering of each is, in fact, real. which, to me, means that people (and dogs) have real, inherent value. so my honest question is where does that value come from?
(again, not implying non-god-believers do not value life or anything like that.)
my life has no value to you....my dogs life has no value to you
our lives only have value to our families....not to invisible people
Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018) The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago 2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy 2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE) 2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston 2020: Oakland, Oakland:2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana 2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville 2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt2
Humanism... hmmm.... I think I would tend more toward existentialism though humanism does have good points too (it's not about putting your faith in mankind as a whole and thinking humans are inherently good).
As you say, people have done a lot to fuck things up but, if I read what some believers in this thread have to say, the world is cursed - that's why those things happen. Who cursed this world? It can only be god as he is the 'master of the universe' and controls man's destiny (as believers need to follow his rules or be dammed.) I would rather put my faith in a flawed man that can change things than thinking that bad stuff happen because there is a vengeful god who curses the world.
This is what I have gathered studying through faith and human experience.
You cant say humans are inherently good because you you have to first be outside of everything in existence to know what good is. You judge good by your standards and good for you isnt always good for others. No human is all good. In all of us there are good qualities but we give into bad daily. Only an outside force with an all good nature (God) can perscribe what good is = the Bible. Realizing that you are a sinner at heart is the first step. You may do good things but that doesnt make you good. Osama leads his people and they think he is good. We as americans may give to the poor every once and a while but we all become jealous, angry, or vengeful with our friends or family at times. Consider your heart a white sheet and each little sin drops of blood. The more and more sins that enter your life the less and less your inherent goodness (sheet) gets stained.
With that said...
Humans cursed the world, God didnt. We chose this path by wanting the knowlege God possesses. The opposition of God dangled it in front of us and we CHOSE it. We could have the knowlege if we want it and we chose it. The opposition still dangles it in front of us to this day and we still choose it by giving into our sinful nature. He and God are battling for our souls. We fight wars because we are now like our earthy father which is satan. Granted the story of Adam and Eve is in the form of a childs story but it has such great depth and meaning. Is that how it litteraly went down? No I doubt it. Originally the story says we were protected on earth "in a garden". You have to wonder why it specifies that we were protected from the outside world. Dinosaurs, earthquakes, death and destruction for humans were on the outside. These things arent evil naturally only when they start to kill us do we consider them that. Earthquakes are essential to the release of nitrogen from the plates to maintain specific levels in the atmosphere. Dinosaurs are awesome creatures and I'm sure were fun to watch, much like a dog. Death must exist in the outside world or it would become unbalanced and over populated. Now we know what God knows and are living in that world because we chose to know this about human nature and the natural world. We still chose to search and know scientifically much about the world when all the essentials God has told us in his spoken/written word.
God is only vengeful to his opposition. The deity that he created that chose to rebel and the human that choses to disbelieve and live unaccordingly. A person doesnt get comfort from their creator when suffering occurs because he denys it, resulting in hopelessness.
We control our destiny.
You cant come to know God thinking through logic, He is outside the realm of logic.
ELB, do you think that maybe you are just in a different "reality-tunnel" from most others, just as I am in a different reality tunnel, and every person is in a different tunnel? Maybe every tunnel is just as relevant and provable as any other? If so, why proselytize? If not, do you think you deny the "reality tunnel" because the concept makes you feel lonely?
Also, I consider myself a humanist agnostic (thanks Mr. Vonnegut). I help others when possible and try to be a good human to my brothers and sisters. But, I don't know about god(s). I don't deny the existence... but I can't say "I Believe" because that wouldn't be true. Will I go to heaven or to hell?
Everything not forbidden is compulsory and eveything not compulsory is forbidden. You are free... free to do what the government says you can do.
Dinosaurs are awesome creatures and I'm sure were fun to watch, much like a dog
so...you believe humans existed at the same time and watched dinosaurs?
it is funny that he puts dinosaurs and dogs on the same plane in order to diminish the perceived significance of an animal that is in direct conflict with the bible's teachings. tsk tsk.
For some reason I cannot get this kid out of my brain:
Everything not forbidden is compulsory and eveything not compulsory is forbidden. You are free... free to do what the government says you can do.
Humanism... hmmm.... I think I would tend more toward existentialism though humanism does have good points too (it's not about putting your faith in mankind as a whole and thinking humans are inherently good).
As you say, people have done a lot to fuck things up but, if I read what some believers in this thread have to say, the world is cursed - that's why those things happen. Who cursed this world? It can only be god as he is the 'master of the universe' and controls man's destiny (as believers need to follow his rules or be dammed.) I would rather put my faith in a flawed man that can change things than thinking that bad stuff happen because there is a vengeful god who curses the world.
You cant say humans are inherently good...
Humans cursed the world, God didnt. We chose this path by wanting the knowlege God possesses. The opposition of God dangled it in front of us and we CHOSE it. We could have the knowlege if we want it and we chose it. The opposition still dangles it in front of us to this day and we still choose it by giving into our sinful nature.
Now we know what God knows and are living in that world because we chose to know this about human nature and the natural world. We still chose to search and know scientifically much about the world when all the essentials God has told us in his spoken/written word.
God is only vengeful to his opposition. The deity that he created that chose to rebel and the human that choses to disbelieve and live unaccordingly. .
For your whole post, I just had one thought.... WOW.... Not WOW in awe but more in disbelief.
First, I don't think anyone on this thread suggested that man is inherently good. At least we agree on one thing, man isn't. BUT... we know that and we are therefore masters of our destiny and we can do what we want with this knowledge. Most people would lead a decent life and yes, this may mean a lot of different things to different cultures, etc. You may think having several wives is wrong, others may not, etc. I do not believe in sin and a sinful nature as this is just another god thing.
We know what god knows...again.. wow. I must say it's a good thing we chose to search and gain scientific knowledge and that we don't have to rely on the bible for all our medical and technological needs. Medical advances helped your wife give birth safely.... lots of mothers and babies died during childbirth in the times the bible was written. One tiny example. I'm sure you will argue that god was looking after you guys because you are righteous.
God only vengeful to his opposition.... ie all those who do not believe in the christian god? Damn... Ghandi didn't see that one coming, did he?
I ment God watching dinosaurs. How are dinosaurs in direct conflict with the bibles teachings? How do you know the bibles teachings if you dont believe in it? Maybe God wiped out the earth, dinosaurs included, after the fall. Maybe not. The Bible does mention dinosaurs, though it never actually uses the word “dinosaur.” Instead, it uses the Hebrew word tanniyn, which is translated a few different ways in our English Bibles. Sometimes it’s “sea monster,” and sometimes it’s “serpent.” It is most commonly translated “dragon.” The tanniyn appear to have been some sort of giant reptile. These creatures are mentioned nearly thirty times in the Old Testament and were found both on land and in the water.
Haha that picture is far from me my friends as you can see in my icon to the right. What is that picture from?
Maybe we are in different realms. I dont know what you know and you dont know what I know. Like I said "what I believe is". What I believe pertains to me right now. If what I believe is true then it will also pertain to you someday but if not then no biggie
Humanism... hmmm.... I think I would tend more toward existentialism though humanism does have good points too (it's not about putting your faith in mankind as a whole and thinking humans are inherently good).
As you say, people have done a lot to fuck things up but, if I read what some believers in this thread have to say, the world is cursed - that's why those things happen. Who cursed this world? It can only be god as he is the 'master of the universe' and controls man's destiny (as believers need to follow his rules or be dammed.) I would rather put my faith in a flawed man that can change things than thinking that bad stuff happen because there is a vengeful god who curses the world.
This is what I have gathered studying through faith and human experience.
You cant say humans are inherently good because you you have to first be outside of everything in existence to know what good is. You judge good by your standards and good for you isnt always good for others. No human is all good. In all of us there are good qualities but we give into bad daily. Only an outside force with an all good nature (God) can perscribe what good is = the Bible. Realizing that you are a sinner at heart is the first step. You may do good things but that doesnt make you good. Osama leads his people and they think he is good. We as americans may give to the poor every once and a while but we all become jealous, angry, or vengeful with our friends or family at times. Consider your heart a white sheet and each little sin drops of blood. The more and more sins that enter your life the less and less your inherent goodness (sheet) gets stained.
With that said...
Humans cursed the world, God didnt. We chose this path by wanting the knowlege God possesses. The opposition of God dangled it in front of us and we CHOSE it. We could have the knowlege if we want it and we chose it. The opposition still dangles it in front of us to this day and we still choose it by giving into our sinful nature. He and God are battling for our souls. We fight wars because we are now like our earthy father which is satan. Granted the story of Adam and Eve is in the form of a childs story but it has such great depth and meaning. Is that how it litteraly went down? No I doubt it. Originally the story says we were protected on earth "in a garden". You have to wonder why it specifies that we were protected from the outside world. Dinosaurs, earthquakes, death and destruction for humans were on the outside. These things arent evil naturally only when they start to kill us do we consider them that. Earthquakes are essential to the release of nitrogen from the plates to maintain specific levels in the atmosphere. Dinosaurs are awesome creatures and I'm sure were fun to watch, much like a dog. Death must exist in the outside world or it would become unbalanced and over populated. Now we know what God knows and are living in that world because we chose to know this about human nature and the natural world. We still chose to search and know scientifically much about the world when all the essentials God has told us in his spoken/written word.
God is only vengeful to his opposition. The deity that he created that chose to rebel and the human that choses to disbelieve and live unaccordingly. A person doesnt get comfort from their creator when suffering occurs because he denys it, resulting in hopelessness.
We control our destiny.
You cant come to know God thinking through logic, He is outside the realm of logic.
Finally, we agree. Peace be with you.
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win ."
I ment God watching dinosaurs. How are dinosaurs in direct conflict with the bibles teachings?
Because if you BELIEVE in the bible then it clearly adds up to the age of the earth being <10,000 years old. Dinosaurs wandered the earth more than 40 MILLION years ago. Fairly simple... but I have absolutely no idea what you "ment" by "God watching dinosaurs."
How do you know the bibles teachings if you dont believe in it?
Huh? You can't be knowledgable of a topic without "believing" it? Just because I've read Mein Kampf doesn't mean that I believe Hitler's philosophy. Similarly, just because I've read (most) of the bible doesn't mean that I believe it to be true.
Maybe God wiped out the earth, dinosaurs included, after the fall. Maybe not. The Bible does mention dinosaurs, though it never actually uses the word “dinosaur.” Instead, it uses the Hebrew word tanniyn, which is translated a few different ways in our English Bibles. Sometimes it’s “sea monster,” and sometimes it’s “serpent.” It is most commonly translated “dragon.” The tanniyn appear to have been some sort of giant reptile. These creatures are mentioned nearly thirty times in the Old Testament and were found both on land and in the water.
Ok, so with that logic, every tale of monsters/serpents/lizards in the history of man is about dinosaurs? That is a pretty bold leap.
Everything not forbidden is compulsory and eveything not compulsory is forbidden. You are free... free to do what the government says you can do.
How do you know the bibles teachings if you dont believe in it? )
One does not have to believe the contents of a book to study it.
So you personally have read it front to back?
Pretty much so, I would say. But that's not the point. The point is BELIEVING what a book says to be able to study it. One can study text without having an affinity with what is written.
You know you exist (somewhat concrete evidence of this!), you can feel yourself, see yourself, others see and feel you. You are master of your destiny. No one saw god, no concrete evidence of him being around... I would say faith in myself is more reasonable.
Though we could always go the Descartes way and how he decided god existed.
yes, all good points about my existence. however i believe that faith in one's self requires as much logical defense as faith in god. many very bad people have had faith in themselves. was that faith justified more than my own faith in god?
we also have a lot of evidence that people have done a lot to fuck things up around here, and it's just hard for me to put my ultimate faith in something that has been proved so often to be so messed up. humanity, that is. i guess that sounds really negative, and i don't necessarily mean it that way. it's just that, ultimately, humanism places so much faith in something that we have definitely seen to be, shall we say, less than good?
I'm not saying if placing faith in myself (bad or good!) is more 'justified' than placing faith in a god. I'm saying it seems more reasonable to me.
Humanism... hmmm.... I think I would tend more toward existentialism though humanism does have good points too (it's not about putting your faith in mankind as a whole and thinking humans are inherently good).
As you say, people have done a lot to fuck things up but, if I read what some believers in this thread have to say, the world is cursed - that's why those things happen. Who cursed this world? It can only be god as he is the 'master of the universe' and controls man's destiny (as believers need to follow his rules or be dammed.) I would rather put my faith in a flawed man that can change things than thinking that bad stuff happen because there is a vengeful god who curses the world.
so maybe i used the word 'justified' interchangably with 'reasonable' which i suppose isn't really right. but i think my point is still valid - faith in one's self could seem completely reasonable, even if what you believed was that the voices were telling you to cut people up. (to which i suppose you will reply, well, an individual's faith in god could be equally crazy and unreasonable. touche.)
i guess my main point is that while belief in a god is ultimately an issue of faith, in can be enacted in a reasonable way. and i think that other life-guiding faiths, which we agree most people follow in some form or another, are also matters of faith which can be enacted in reasonable ways. as such, i don't think it's fair for the non-god-believer to criticize the god-believer for being unreasonable.
(it's also fair to say i misused the word humanism.)
as for why is the world fucked up, well, i have never said that is becasue god cursed the world. i personally believe that the world is fucked up beacuse the god i believe in gave people the choice to do pretty much whatever they want, and sometimes individuals and groups have chosen things that have fucked things up.
and for 'follow the rules or be damned', well, what exactly 'follow the rules' means and what exactly 'damned' means is a huge matter of disagreement inside the christian community. another of my initial points - it's easy for non-god-believers to attack certain strains of christian thought, but not all christians think about these issues the same way.
but thank you for responding to me, you are making me think. i hope i can return the favor...
my life has no value to you....my dogs life has no value to you
our lives only have value to our families....not to invisible people
au contraire mon frere, your life does have value to me - at the risk of sounding like a creepy internet stalker weirdo - haha.
in fact, this is part of what i'm trying to say: why do people care about people they've never met, people they'll never see? we have a lot of evidence that this is true. tens (maybe hundreds) of millions raised for the people of haiti. why do so many people care about people they do not know, invisible people, as you say?
i have heard some argue that this is only because it gives the donor (in this specific example) a good, warm-fuzzy feeling inside, or something like that. or that evolution has caused us to care about each other because it strengthens the tribe. but that doesn't hold when we are talking about invisible people - actually, if i help someone outside my own tribe, i am reducing the resources available to my own, thus hurting myself. so why should i be so concerned about invisible people?
i believe it is because people are hard-wired to recognize that other people, even invisible people, have inherent value. and so, for me, the questions remains: whence cometh this value?
Comments
Just like 'the devil made me do it'
The scriptures seem to say that that should one not live their lives in the fear of god, they are doomed. They judge (and condemn!) non believers. You believe and accept the scriptures - you judge along with them.
yes....
The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt2
You know you exist (somewhat concrete evidence of this!), you can feel yourself, see yourself, others see and feel you. You are master of your destiny. No one saw god, no concrete evidence of him being around... I would say faith in myself is more reasonable.
Though we could always go the Descartes way and how he decided god existed.
maybe I didn't follow your point....although I don't really know what your point was I guess
The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt2
Macroevolution offers no answers to these statements. There is no "right and wrong" when it comes to survival of the fittest.
In the first case...the universe itself could also be the thing that is infinitely existing and intelligent design theory is invalid.
In the second case...If the first cause is god, then intelligent design theory is invalid because ID theory explains that it is not reasonable for something to come from nothing, so if the universe can't come from nothing, neither can god.
"With our thoughts we make the world"
yes, all good points about my existence. however i believe that faith in one's self requires as much logical defense as faith in god. many very bad people have had faith in themselves. was that faith justified more than my own faith in god?
we also have a lot of evidence that people have done a lot to fuck things up around here, and it's just hard for me to put my ultimate faith in something that has been proved so often to be so messed up. humanity, that is. i guess that sounds really negative, and i don't necessarily mean it that way. it's just that, ultimately, humanism places so much faith in something that we have definitely seen to be, shall we say, less than good?
i guess i was just wondering why human suffering is real. or the dog's suffering. i believe the suffering of each is, in fact, real. which, to me, means that people (and dogs) have real, inherent value. so my honest question is where does that value come from?
(again, not implying non-god-believers do not value life or anything like that.)
fair points. but i was not arguing for the validity of intelligent design as a scientific theory. nor was i trying to provide a proof of god. i was just responding to the general sentiment (i guess not your's in particular) that god cannot exist because if so, what caused god? i was just pointing out that that particular line of reasoning shouldn't be considered valid in disproving god...
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
we dont disappear into nothingness. we just become a part of what is around us.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
It's OK... The answer is 42.
I'm not saying if placing faith in myself (bad or good!) is more 'justified' than placing faith in a god. I'm saying it seems more reasonable to me.
Humanism... hmmm.... I think I would tend more toward existentialism though humanism does have good points too (it's not about putting your faith in mankind as a whole and thinking humans are inherently good).
As you say, people have done a lot to fuck things up but, if I read what some believers in this thread have to say, the world is cursed - that's why those things happen. Who cursed this world? It can only be god as he is the 'master of the universe' and controls man's destiny (as believers need to follow his rules or be dammed.) I would rather put my faith in a flawed man that can change things than thinking that bad stuff happen because there is a vengeful god who curses the world.
my life has no value to you....my dogs life has no value to you
our lives only have value to our families....not to invisible people
The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt2
This is what I have gathered studying through faith and human experience.
You cant say humans are inherently good because you you have to first be outside of everything in existence to know what good is. You judge good by your standards and good for you isnt always good for others. No human is all good. In all of us there are good qualities but we give into bad daily. Only an outside force with an all good nature (God) can perscribe what good is = the Bible. Realizing that you are a sinner at heart is the first step. You may do good things but that doesnt make you good. Osama leads his people and they think he is good. We as americans may give to the poor every once and a while but we all become jealous, angry, or vengeful with our friends or family at times. Consider your heart a white sheet and each little sin drops of blood. The more and more sins that enter your life the less and less your inherent goodness (sheet) gets stained.
With that said...
Humans cursed the world, God didnt. We chose this path by wanting the knowlege God possesses. The opposition of God dangled it in front of us and we CHOSE it. We could have the knowlege if we want it and we chose it. The opposition still dangles it in front of us to this day and we still choose it by giving into our sinful nature. He and God are battling for our souls. We fight wars because we are now like our earthy father which is satan. Granted the story of Adam and Eve is in the form of a childs story but it has such great depth and meaning. Is that how it litteraly went down? No I doubt it. Originally the story says we were protected on earth "in a garden". You have to wonder why it specifies that we were protected from the outside world. Dinosaurs, earthquakes, death and destruction for humans were on the outside. These things arent evil naturally only when they start to kill us do we consider them that. Earthquakes are essential to the release of nitrogen from the plates to maintain specific levels in the atmosphere. Dinosaurs are awesome creatures and I'm sure were fun to watch, much like a dog. Death must exist in the outside world or it would become unbalanced and over populated. Now we know what God knows and are living in that world because we chose to know this about human nature and the natural world. We still chose to search and know scientifically much about the world when all the essentials God has told us in his spoken/written word.
God is only vengeful to his opposition. The deity that he created that chose to rebel and the human that choses to disbelieve and live unaccordingly. A person doesnt get comfort from their creator when suffering occurs because he denys it, resulting in hopelessness.
We control our destiny.
You cant come to know God thinking through logic, He is outside the realm of logic.
Also, I consider myself a humanist agnostic (thanks Mr. Vonnegut). I help others when possible and try to be a good human to my brothers and sisters. But, I don't know about god(s). I don't deny the existence... but I can't say "I Believe" because that wouldn't be true. Will I go to heaven or to hell?
so...you believe humans existed at the same time and watched dinosaurs?
The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt2
your god is certainly outside the realm....agreed
The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt2
it is funny that he puts dinosaurs and dogs on the same plane in order to diminish the perceived significance of an animal that is in direct conflict with the bible's teachings. tsk tsk.
For some reason I cannot get this kid out of my brain:
The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt2
For your whole post, I just had one thought.... WOW.... Not WOW in awe but more in disbelief.
First, I don't think anyone on this thread suggested that man is inherently good. At least we agree on one thing, man isn't. BUT... we know that and we are therefore masters of our destiny and we can do what we want with this knowledge. Most people would lead a decent life and yes, this may mean a lot of different things to different cultures, etc. You may think having several wives is wrong, others may not, etc. I do not believe in sin and a sinful nature as this is just another god thing.
We know what god knows...again.. wow. I must say it's a good thing we chose to search and gain scientific knowledge and that we don't have to rely on the bible for all our medical and technological needs. Medical advances helped your wife give birth safely.... lots of mothers and babies died during childbirth in the times the bible was written. One tiny example. I'm sure you will argue that god was looking after you guys because you are righteous.
God only vengeful to his opposition.... ie all those who do not believe in the christian god? Damn... Ghandi didn't see that one coming, did he?
Haha that picture is far from me my friends as you can see in my icon to the right. What is that picture from?
Maybe we are in different realms. I dont know what you know and you dont know what I know. Like I said "what I believe is". What I believe pertains to me right now. If what I believe is true then it will also pertain to you someday but if not then no biggie
Finally, we agree. Peace be with you.
"With our thoughts we make the world"
One does not have to believe the contents of a book to study it.
So you personally have read it front to back?
Because if you BELIEVE in the bible then it clearly adds up to the age of the earth being <10,000 years old. Dinosaurs wandered the earth more than 40 MILLION years ago. Fairly simple... but I have absolutely no idea what you "ment" by "God watching dinosaurs."
http://www.albatrus.org/english/theolog ... _earth.htm
Huh? You can't be knowledgable of a topic without "believing" it? Just because I've read Mein Kampf doesn't mean that I believe Hitler's philosophy. Similarly, just because I've read (most) of the bible doesn't mean that I believe it to be true.
Ok, so with that logic, every tale of monsters/serpents/lizards in the history of man is about dinosaurs? That is a pretty bold leap.
Pretty much so, I would say. But that's not the point. The point is BELIEVING what a book says to be able to study it. One can study text without having an affinity with what is written.
so maybe i used the word 'justified' interchangably with 'reasonable' which i suppose isn't really right. but i think my point is still valid - faith in one's self could seem completely reasonable, even if what you believed was that the voices were telling you to cut people up. (to which i suppose you will reply, well, an individual's faith in god could be equally crazy and unreasonable. touche.)
i guess my main point is that while belief in a god is ultimately an issue of faith, in can be enacted in a reasonable way. and i think that other life-guiding faiths, which we agree most people follow in some form or another, are also matters of faith which can be enacted in reasonable ways. as such, i don't think it's fair for the non-god-believer to criticize the god-believer for being unreasonable.
(it's also fair to say i misused the word humanism.)
as for why is the world fucked up, well, i have never said that is becasue god cursed the world. i personally believe that the world is fucked up beacuse the god i believe in gave people the choice to do pretty much whatever they want, and sometimes individuals and groups have chosen things that have fucked things up.
and for 'follow the rules or be damned', well, what exactly 'follow the rules' means and what exactly 'damned' means is a huge matter of disagreement inside the christian community. another of my initial points - it's easy for non-god-believers to attack certain strains of christian thought, but not all christians think about these issues the same way.
but thank you for responding to me, you are making me think. i hope i can return the favor...
au contraire mon frere, your life does have value to me - at the risk of sounding like a creepy internet stalker weirdo - haha.
in fact, this is part of what i'm trying to say: why do people care about people they've never met, people they'll never see? we have a lot of evidence that this is true. tens (maybe hundreds) of millions raised for the people of haiti. why do so many people care about people they do not know, invisible people, as you say?
i have heard some argue that this is only because it gives the donor (in this specific example) a good, warm-fuzzy feeling inside, or something like that. or that evolution has caused us to care about each other because it strengthens the tribe. but that doesn't hold when we are talking about invisible people - actually, if i help someone outside my own tribe, i am reducing the resources available to my own, thus hurting myself. so why should i be so concerned about invisible people?
i believe it is because people are hard-wired to recognize that other people, even invisible people, have inherent value. and so, for me, the questions remains: whence cometh this value?