10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer

Gern Blansten

dpmay wrote:

Gern Blansten wrote:

I guess I believe that everything else that could be termed "evidence" for the existence of a god can be logically dismissed by various arguments or rational thought.

huh, now that is interesting to me. that is pretty much exactly my own methodology - examining each piece of "evidence" through various arguments and rational thought. i just generally come out believing that my use of reason has strenghtened my faith in god.

of course this makes me wonder how much each of us is seeing what we want to see, that reaffirms what we already believe. you have admitted you would be willing to concede belief in god if evidence presented itself. i wonder if i would be willing to eschew my faith in god if evidence of god's non-existence presented itself...

(ultimately, though, i think it's a moot point for each of us - i don't see indesputable, incontrovertable evidence coming from either side any time soon.)

I would disagree....kind of what was presented in the video...in order to believe in god you would have to make up some uncomfortable excuses or rationalizations....to me that is evidence of no god because it just logically doesn't make sense

I'm not sure if you want to present something as an example because I think we'll end up back at the beginning of the universe again.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

pandora wrote:

1)I have always thought people believe in God because they have the need. The faith is strong because it answers a need. 2)It seems to me non believers just are not happy to leave those of faith alone most especially here on this website. They don't feel the need to believe but seem to feel the need to discredit what others believe. And yes often they seem a bit bitter and unhappy. Sometimes I think people are not feeling enough and just trying to over think everything.

I couldn't agree more with #1 in blue.
I couldn't disagree more with #2 in red, as I have never had an interest in debunking anyone's anything. I find more theists try to convert more atheists/agnostics than the other way around. What possible motivation do I have for convincing others there is no god except to defend my belief against a theist that is for some reason trying to make me a believer?

dpmay

Gern Blansten wrote:

I would disagree....kind of what was presented in the video...in order to believe in god you would have to make up some uncomfortable excuses or rationalizations....to me that is evidence of no god because it just logically doesn't make sense

I'm not sure if you want to present something as an example because I think we'll end up back at the beginning of the universe again.

OK, i will give it a try. and this is something i mentioned above in a previous post. in the context of the video, the guy asks a lot of questions (why won't god heal amputees, why are so many people starving, why do bad things happen to good people) that seems to wonder why god allows suffering. this question implies that human suffering is real, not imagined, and that it is bad. this point of view implies that humans do in fact have some kind of inherent value.

now, i ask, as i did above, where does this value come from? i do not imply that in the absence of god, human life can have no value. i just mention this: the god-believer believes that human life has value because there was some kind of purpose behind it's existence. the non-god-believer, as far as i can tell, must accept that human life has intrinsic value in and of itself, for no reason beyond the fact itself. while this is cetainly a defensable position, and one i certainly respect, i think it actually requires a leap of faith that is somewhat greater than believing humans have value for the reason of being god-created.

but i dunno, like i said, i want to learn about other's point of view...

dpmay

Johnny Sitar wrote:

pandora wrote:

1)I have always thought people believe in God because they have the need. The faith is strong because it answers a need. 2)It seems to me non believers just are not happy to leave those of faith alone most especially here on this website. They don't feel the need to believe but seem to feel the need to discredit what others believe. And yes often they seem a bit bitter and unhappy. Sometimes I think people are not feeling enough and just trying to over think everything.

I couldn't agree more with #1 in blue.
I couldn't disagree more with #2 in red, as I have never had an interest in debunking anyone's anything. I find more theists try to convert more atheists/agnostics than the other way around. What possible motivation do I have for convincing others there is no god except to defend my belief against a theist that is for some reason trying to make me a believer?

just to be clear, i personally am not trying to convince anyone. i am interested in an honest exchange of ideas.

that said, on point 1 here, like i said above, just because someone wants something to be true does not mean it is false.

Gern Blansten

dpmay wrote:

Gern Blansten wrote:

I would disagree....kind of what was presented in the video...in order to believe in god you would have to make up some uncomfortable excuses or rationalizations....to me that is evidence of no god because it just logically doesn't make sense

I'm not sure if you want to present something as an example because I think we'll end up back at the beginning of the universe again.

OK, i will give it a try. and this is something i mentioned above in a previous post. in the context of the video, the guy asks a lot of questions (why won't god heal amputees, why are so many people starving, why do bad things happen to good people) that seems to wonder why god allows suffering. this question implies that human suffering is real, not imagined, and that it is bad. this point of view implies that humans do in fact have some kind of inherent value.

now, i ask, as i did above, where does this value come from? i do not imply that in the absence of god, human life can have no value. i just mention this: the god-believer believes that human life has value because there was some kind of purpose behind it's existence. the non-god-believer, as far as i can tell, must accept that human life has intrinsic value in and of itself, for no reason beyond the fact itself. while this is cetainly a defensable position, and one i certainly respect, i think it actually requires a leap of faith that is somewhat greater than believing humans have value for the reason of being god-created.

but i dunno, like i said, i want to learn about other's point of view...

of course it is real....we are animals....animals suffer

If I beat the neighbor's dog with a bat he will suffer....why does he have to have value to suffer?

Hugh Freaking Dillon

dpmay wrote:

Gern Blansten wrote:

I would disagree....kind of what was presented in the video...in order to believe in god you would have to make up some uncomfortable excuses or rationalizations....to me that is evidence of no god because it just logically doesn't make sense

I'm not sure if you want to present something as an example because I think we'll end up back at the beginning of the universe again.

OK, i will give it a try. and this is something i mentioned above in a previous post. in the context of the video, the guy asks a lot of questions (why won't god heal amputees, why are so many people starving, why do bad things happen to good people) that seems to wonder why god allows suffering. this question implies that human suffering is real, not imagined, and that it is bad. this point of view implies that humans do in fact have some kind of inherent value.

now, i ask, as i did above, where does this value come from? i do not imply that in the absence of god, human life can have no value. i just mention this: the god-believer believes that human life has value because there was some kind of purpose behind it's existence. the non-god-believer, as far as i can tell, must accept that human life has intrinsic value in and of itself, for no reason beyond the fact itself. while this is cetainly a defensable position, and one i certainly respect, i think it actually requires a leap of faith that is somewhat greater than believing humans have value for the reason of being god-created.

but i dunno, like i said, i want to learn about other's point of view...

I don't believe that I was created for a purpose; I believe my life has purpose because I was created.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

I am probably going to get destroyed for making this comparison, but this, Simpson's episode, called The Genesis Tub, believe it or not, actually made me think about this subject and gave me a new perspective on what god is/could be. Humour me, and just read on:

"Lisa performs a science experiment to see if cola will dissolve a tooth and Bart shocks Lisa as part of his project to prove that nerds conduct electricity. The tooth was also shocked and it undergoes an unusual reaction and creates a race of miniature beings. Lisa discovers this the next day and marvels at how the people in her universe evolve at a rapid rate, going through the various ages humans have gone through into modern times and eventually, a society more advanced than current humanity. Bart destroys some of the ecosystem in Lisa's tub universe and the people respond, sending a squadron of space ships to attack Bart. Bart vows revenge on the small universe and Lisa wonders what to do. Suddenly, she is beamed down into the tub where the citizens explain that they regard her as God and they want her to do something about Bart. However, Bart grabs the tub and submits it in the science fair and Lisa is forced to watch from within as Bart wins first prize. She asks to be returned to her normal size, which the citizens explain is impossible, and she realizes that she is stuck in the tub for the rest of her life."

Now, I understand the irony, if not outright ridiculousness, of a cartoon giving me insight into religion, but it seriously made me think; what if there is a god, but he's not the god we think he is. Maybe he accidentally created life, but has no real power beyond that.

Is it possible there is a "god" that is powerless with no real heaven as we've come to imagine, and also that evolution is real?

Back to the bong we go.

redrock

dpmay wrote:

... the god-believer believes that human life has value because there was some kind of purpose behind it's existence. .

And what is this purpose?

Hugh Freaking Dillon

redrock wrote:

dpmay wrote:

... the god-believer believes that human life has value because there was some kind of purpose behind it's existence. .

And what is this purpose?

I'm pretty sure even the righteous will admit they don't know this one. I think you are supposed to find out when you sit down with the big man for your eternal happy hour.

pandora

Gee and my most important point was that people are not feeling enough and over thinking everything
"I don't want to think I want to feel" a great man said that once

redrock

Johnny Sitar wrote:

redrock wrote:

dpmay wrote:

... the god-believer believes that human life has value because there was some kind of purpose behind it's existence. .

And what is this purpose?

I'm pretty sure even the righteous will admit they don't know this one. I think you are supposed to find out when you sit down with the big man for your eternal happy hour.

Hmmm... wait and see what responses are. I'm thinking it's easier to believe that you are here because something put you there for a purpose. A non believer has to figure out life for himself/herself. No 'god' safety cushion. Much harder (and I would say valuable), maybe with a better understanding of the value of life.

redrock

pandora wrote:

"I don't want to think I want to feel" a great man said that once

And another great one said "Cogito, ergo sum" (I think, therefore I am).

EddieLedBetter

redrock wrote:

dpmay wrote:

... the god-believer believes that human life has value because there was some kind of purpose behind it's existence. .

And what is this purpose?

Biblically mans purpose is to honor your creator by living, thinking and carrying out life while adhering to Gods commandments. To live fully creating as he created, working hard at anything and everything justly. Meaning your relationships, career and so on. "Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man. For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil" (Ecclesiastes 12:13-14). Live everyday with thankfulness for existence.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

redrock wrote:

I'm thinking it's easier to believe that you are here because something put you there for a purpose. A non believer has to figure out life for himself/herself. No 'god' safety cushion. Much harder (and I would say valuable), maybe with a better understanding of the value of life.

I'm thinking I agree with you 100% on this. I have said this several times, but ELB says the opposite, that for some reason believing in god and an afterlife makes life on earth more difficult. Explain that one to me.

EddieLedBetter

Only going on feelings or emotion is why man is so corrupt. The heart isnt the center of human being the mind is, or coinscience. We get into trouble when we allow our emotions to overtake our coinscience.

redrock

EddieLedBetter wrote:

redrock wrote:

dpmay wrote:

... the god-believer believes that human life has value because there was some kind of purpose behind it's existence. .

And what is this purpose?

Biblically mans purpose is to honor your creator by living, thinking and carrying out life while adhering to Gods commandments. To live fully creating as he created, working hard at anything and everything justly. Meaning your relationships, career and so on. "Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man. For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil" (Ecclesiastes 12:13-14). Live everyday with thankfulness for existence.

So one lives his life in 'fear of god', just in the hope that you will be in his good books on judgement day. Brings back the fact that one then must believe in punishment and reward (ie heaven and hell).

I would rather live my life 'working hard at anything', etc. because I WANT to. Because it brings me satisfaction, not because I fear god's judgement.

Gern Blansten

EddieLedBetter wrote:

redrock wrote:

dpmay wrote:

... the god-believer believes that human life has value because there was some kind of purpose behind it's existence. .

And what is this purpose?

Biblically mans purpose is to honor your creator by living, thinking and carrying out life while adhering to Gods commandments. To live fully creating as he created, working hard at anything and everything justly. Meaning your relationships, career and so on. "Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man. For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil" (Ecclesiastes 12:13-14). Live everyday with thankfulness for existence.

so the billions of people on the world that don't believe this are just out of luck? Their lives have no purpose?

EddieLedBetter

Johnny Sitar wrote:

redrock wrote:

I'm thinking it's easier to believe that you are here because something put you there for a purpose. A non believer has to figure out life for himself/herself. No 'god' safety cushion. Much harder (and I would say valuable), maybe with a better understanding of the value of life.

I'm thinking I agree with you 100% on this. I have said this several times, but ELB says the opposite, that for some reason believing in god and an afterlife makes life on earth more difficult. Explain that one to me.

One reason its easier for you is you have no eternal consequences for living your way. You live and die and never having to reap what you sow on earth. Its much harder for me to not give into the temptation of emotions I have; say at work when someone else gets a promotion over me (envy), or at home by myself on the internet (lust), or out away from my wife surrounded by temptation (adultry/lust).

Another is by having faith in a good deity (God) means that one knows an opposing deity exists (satan). Bad things naturally happen to people, that is a given. When I am on the right path in my faith I can tell that certain things are happening to me because of that opposing deity which tries to tempt me into stumbling in my faith by bringing to the front of my thoughts worldly materialistic things like bills, car crashes, house burning down. Its a stream that satan wants me to tap into so I constantly think this is all I have. You dont believe these things exist so you arent tormented by them regularly for one. In a way you're soul is already won so whats the use in wasting time beating a dead horse when we have tons of kids entering college from the church whos minds are fresh and able to sway from the truth by worldly explainations of evolution and tolerance especially.

EddieLedBetter

Gern Blansten wrote:

the god-believer believes that human life has value because there was some kind of purpose behind it's existence. .

And what is this purpose?

Biblically mans purpose is to honor your creator by living, thinking and carrying out life while adhering to Gods commandments. To live fully creating as he created, working hard at anything and everything justly. Meaning your relationships, career and so on. "Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man. For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil" (Ecclesiastes 12:13-14). Live everyday with thankfulness for existence.[/quote]

so the billions of people on the world that don't believe this are just out of luck? Their lives have no purpose?[/quote]





You have purpose in a worldly sense but your view ends at that. It fades even though your soul will live on and the problem is everyone has been tricked into thinking that this part of us doesnt exist. I can tell you we are more than random chance and more than chemical reactions. My son was born for a reason, changed my life. My thoughts of dying for him overweigh what science says the chemicals in our brains tell me to instinctually do which is survive. That is soul, coinscience is soul. Everyone is given the same opportunity as I have been given. The evidence is out there one just has to open their minds to it.

Cosmo

EddieLedBetter wrote:

Johnny Sitar wrote:

redrock wrote:

I'm thinking it's easier to believe that you are here because something put you there for a purpose. A non believer has to figure out life for himself/herself. No 'god' safety cushion. Much harder (and I would say valuable), maybe with a better understanding of the value of life.

I'm thinking I agree with you 100% on this. I have said this several times, but ELB says the opposite, that for some reason believing in god and an afterlife makes life on earth more difficult. Explain that one to me.

One reason its easier for you is you have no eternal consequences for living your way. You live and die and never having to reap what you sow on earth. Its much harder for me to not give into the temptation of emotions I have; say at work when someone else gets a promotion over me (envy), or at home by myself on the internet (lust), or out away from my wife surrounded by temptation (adultry/lust).

Another is by having faith in a good deity (God) means that one knows an opposing deity exists (satan). Bad things naturally happen to people, that is a given. When I am on the right path in my faith I can tell that certain things are happening to me because of that opposing deity which tries to tempt me into stumbling in my faith by bringing to the front of my thoughts worldly materialistic things like bills, car crashes, house burning down. Its a stream that satan wants me to tap into so I constantly think this is all I have. You dont believe these things exist so you arent tormented by them regularly for one. In a way you're soul is already won so whats the use in wasting time beating a dead horse when we have tons of kids entering college from the church whos minds are fresh and able to sway from the truth by worldly explainations of evolution and tolerance especially.

...
What you are saying here is... you are not a descent person without your belief in Christ. Without it, you are a porn loving adulterer.
The thing that SHOULD keep you from the pettiness of envy or jealousy is the character of your being. What you are saying is that you have none of these positive character traits without your religion.