The Official Philadelphia Phillies 2012 Thread

The Juggler · November 2009

petrocs wrote:

Halliday
Lee
Hamels
Drabek
Happ

I think i just jizzed

premature ejaculation!...i think we gotta give up happ to get doc. happ, brown, and gose and BOOM. i'll see you on broad street next year. happ could very well turn out to be tyler green. he didnt look as good down the stretch as he did his first trip around the league. i would do this in a 2nd. you still get to keep your top pitching prospect in drabek and michael taylor who is close to being ready to take over for ibanez (move werth to right and put taylor in right if need be). farm system is not totally drained and we win another world series.

...then sign either lee or doc to a long term extension. i would NOT give up hamels as some have suggested though.

petrocs · November 2009

Cliffy6745 wrote:

Not bad for a team that continually sings Type-A free agents.

Go go gadget! Spelling bee!

Hark! I think I see a mispelled word!

Haha...just playin Cliffy

Jearlpam0925 · November 2009

Cliffy6745 wrote:

Jearlpam0925 wrote:

Cliffy6745 wrote:

How would the Phillies get Halladay without giving up Drabek or Happ?

Secondly and I am curious on your opinions on this. The Phillies would seemingly have to give away the farm to acquire Lee and now Halladay. The Phillies would have almost no possibility of signing both of them long term past next year. What would happen after next season, you would have one star pitcher (assuming they could only sign one) and almost no farm system? Is it worth it?

The word on the street is you trade for Halladay and sign him to a long term deal, while taking a shot with a rotation of Lee, Halladay, Hamels, Blanton, Moyer/Drabek. You would sign Doc to a 110/120 million dollar deal and let Lee walk. A trade for Halladay will still be costly, but not as much as last year because you're only getting him for one "run". So if the original proposal was Happ, Drabek, Taylor, and Gose(I believe it was), can now become Happ, Taylor/Brown(one of the two - I'd go with Taylor) and Gose. The Phils have labeled Drabek untouchable, and I believe this would get the deal done. It's all about money on the payroll. The Jays would have Happ under control - and in the rotation - for 4 or 5 years along with some good prospects. Plus, you're never going to get greater value for Werth so they could look to move him with either Taylor or Brown waiting in the wings.

Interesting. In my opinion, I don't think Happ, Taylor/Brown and Gose would get it done. I would also be curious to see where scouts rank Happ after this season. From everything I have read he projected to be a 3rd starter. I wonder if that changes. Reminds me a bit of the Ian Kennedy situation with the Yankees except Happ has a bigger sample size. Werth is only locked up for one more year so I am not sure how much value he would add to the trade considering the Jays situation.

While I agree that the demands might be a bit less for Halladay since it is only for 1 year, I could also see more teams getting involved since "everyone" has a shot next year and not just the teams making a run at the postseason.

I already read that the Jay's GM said there is a "limited amount of teams" he's willing to negotiate with and it comes to about 4 or 5 teams and that the Phils are one of them. And I emailed David Murphy at the Daily News and he said Salisbury and Hoffman's articles weren't written without speaking with a source in baseball that have said that talks have resumed and that they're going to make some kind of effort. And when Happ can put up an ERA in the top 5(or so?) in the NL plus have a low whip and 2 CG SO's, I think he only increased his value.

Cliffy6745 · November 2009

Jearlpam0925 wrote:

I already read that the Jay's GM said there is a "limited amount of teams" he's willing to negotiate with and it comes to about 4 or 5 teams and that the Phils are one of them. And I emailed David Murphy at the Daily News and he said Salisbury and Hoffman's articles weren't written without speaking with a source in baseball that have said that talks have resumed and that they're going to make some kind of effort. And when Happ can put up an ERA in the top 5(or so?) in the NL plus have a low whip and 2 CG SO's, I think he only increased his value.

And to your point as well, Halladay as a full no trade clause so that also limits the number of teams. I wonder why a GM would limit the number of teams he is will to negotiate with though. Does not make much sense to me, seems like the more teams bidding the better packaged you are likely to get.

You know Boston and the Dodgers are going to be in the mix.

I definitely think Happ increased his value, I just wonder by how much. His numbers were very good.

Jearlpam0925 · November 2009

Cliffy6745 wrote:

Jearlpam0925 wrote:

I already read that the Jay's GM said there is a "limited amount of teams" he's willing to negotiate with and it comes to about 4 or 5 teams and that the Phils are one of them. And I emailed David Murphy at the Daily News and he said Salisbury and Hoffman's articles weren't written without speaking with a source in baseball that have said that talks have resumed and that they're going to make some kind of effort. And when Happ can put up an ERA in the top 5(or so?) in the NL plus have a low whip and 2 CG SO's, I think he only increased his value.

And to your point as well, Halladay as a full no trade clause so that also limits the number of teams. I wonder why a GM would limit the number of teams he is will to negotiate with though. Does not make much sense to me, seems like the more teams bidding the better packaged you are likely to get.

You know Boston and the Dodgers are going to be in the mix.

I definitely think Happ increased his value, I just wonder by how much. His numbers were very good.

Well, I should've included Shane because he probably carries more cache' in a trade than Werth. Either way, Taylor or Brown will definitely be seeing playing time in the bigs by 2011. I thought Boston is going to make another push for Gonzalez and move Lowell over to 3rd? EDIT: I mean Youkilis.

Cliffy6745 · November 2009

Jearlpam0925 wrote:

Cliffy6745 wrote:

Jearlpam0925 wrote:

I already read that the Jay's GM said there is a "limited amount of teams" he's willing to negotiate with and it comes to about 4 or 5 teams and that the Phils are one of them. And I emailed David Murphy at the Daily News and he said Salisbury and Hoffman's articles weren't written without speaking with a source in baseball that have said that talks have resumed and that they're going to make some kind of effort. And when Happ can put up an ERA in the top 5(or so?) in the NL plus have a low whip and 2 CG SO's, I think he only increased his value.

And to your point as well, Halladay as a full no trade clause so that also limits the number of teams. I wonder why a GM would limit the number of teams he is will to negotiate with though. Does not make much sense to me, seems like the more teams bidding the better packaged you are likely to get.

You know Boston and the Dodgers are going to be in the mix.

I definitely think Happ increased his value, I just wonder by how much. His numbers were very good.

Well, I should've included Shane because he probably carries more cache' in a trade than Werth. Either way, Taylor or Brown will definitely be seeing playing time in the bigs by 2011. I thought Boston is going to make another push for Gonzalez and move Lowell over to 3rd?

I can't remember where I read it but there was an interesting article in the last couple days about how the Padres signing Hoyer as GM makes a Gonzalez to Boston deal unlikely since he knows all of Theo's "tricks". On the contrary, I would think it could also help towards a trade.

I would be really suprised if Boston does not make a run at starting pitching. In my opinion it is their biggest need.

The Juggler · November 2009

Jearlpam0925 wrote:

Cliffy6745 wrote:

Jearlpam0925 wrote:

I already read that the Jay's GM said there is a "limited amount of teams" he's willing to negotiate with and it comes to about 4 or 5 teams and that the Phils are one of them. And I emailed David Murphy at the Daily News and he said Salisbury and Hoffman's articles weren't written without speaking with a source in baseball that have said that talks have resumed and that they're going to make some kind of effort. And when Happ can put up an ERA in the top 5(or so?) in the NL plus have a low whip and 2 CG SO's, I think he only increased his value.

And to your point as well, Halladay as a full no trade clause so that also limits the number of teams. I wonder why a GM would limit the number of teams he is will to negotiate with though. Does not make much sense to me, seems like the more teams bidding the better packaged you are likely to get.

You know Boston and the Dodgers are going to be in the mix.

I definitely think Happ increased his value, I just wonder by how much. His numbers were very good.

Well, I should've included Shane because he probably carries more cache' in a trade than Werth. Either way, Taylor or Brown will definitely be seeing playing time in the bigs by 2011. I thought Boston is going to make another push for Gonzalez and move Lowell over to 3rd? EDIT: I mean Youkilis.

i would lock werth up right now. no way would i part with him for halladay. we have enough with happ and the minor league guys to get this done.....plus, if we do not get halladay, its not the end of the world. i fully expect cole hamels to return to form next year. that is still a very solid 1-2 punch that not many teams have. and if we need a starter come july, we can always pull a deadline deal like last year.

Jearlpam0925 · November 2009

The Jeagler wrote:

Jearlpam0925 wrote:

Cliffy6745 wrote:

And to your point as well, Halladay as a full no trade clause so that also limits the number of teams. I wonder why a GM would limit the number of teams he is will to negotiate with though. Does not make much sense to me, seems like the more teams bidding the better packaged you are likely to get.

You know Boston and the Dodgers are going to be in the mix.

I definitely think Happ increased his value, I just wonder by how much. His numbers were very good.

Well, I should've included Shane because he probably carries more cache' in a trade than Werth. Either way, Taylor or Brown will definitely be seeing playing time in the bigs by 2011. I thought Boston is going to make another push for Gonzalez and move Lowell over to 3rd? EDIT: I mean Youkilis.

i would lock werth up right now. no way would i part with him for halladay. we have enough with happ and the minor league guys to get this done.....plus, if we do not get halladay, its not the end of the world. i fully expect cole hamels to return to form next year. that is still a very solid 1-2 punch that not many teams have. and if we need a starter come july, we can always pull a deadline deal like last year.

I disagree. To go out and push forward because you don't even want to worry about the NL and make winning the World Series your #1 goal more than a pipedream that every player has going into the season(think about where we've come???). Werth's never going to be better than he was this year. Someone will need to go when Taylor or Brown are ready to come up. Shane and Werth will both want about 8/9 mil this year, and it will only sky rocket from there if they excel. And, if they don't - which, like i said, I don't think Werth gets any better, nor younger - now your back to paying guys like you paid Burrell and Lieberthal. Overpaid because of one good season or two. It's pitching, pitching, pitching, pitching, pitching. I can't say that enough. And to have a frontline rotation of Lee, Halladay, and Hamels for a year? You kiddin me??? And it increases your shot of locking either Lee or Halladay up to a number that's more reasonable to both sides than just for the player. I do not see a win/lose or a lose/lose in this scenario - nothing but win/win.

Cliffy6745 · November 2009

The Jeagler wrote:

i would lock werth up right now. no way would i part with him for halladay. we have enough with happ and the minor league guys to get this done.....plus, if we do not get halladay, its not the end of the world. i fully expect cole hamels to return to form next year. that is still a very solid 1-2 punch that not many teams have. and if we need a starter come july, we can always pull a deadline deal like last year.

I personally don't think the Phillies need to trade for him. If I were a Phillies fan I would be thrilled at the idea of having a 1-2 of Lee and Halladay but I think it would definitely be going all in next year.

Jearlpam0925 · November 2009

Cliffy6745 wrote:

The Jeagler wrote:

i would lock werth up right now. no way would i part with him for halladay. we have enough with happ and the minor league guys to get this done.....plus, if we do not get halladay, its not the end of the world. i fully expect cole hamels to return to form next year. that is still a very solid 1-2 punch that not many teams have. and if we need a starter come july, we can always pull a deadline deal like last year.

I personally don't think the Phillies need to trade for him. If I were a Phillies fan I would be thrilled at the idea of having a 1-2 of Lee and Halladay but I think it would definitely be going all in next year.

I think it just increases your chance of locking up one of these guys to a long term deal. Because if you don't get Halladay, then you're putting all your eggs in one basket in hoping that you sign Lee. And, if you wait for Doc in 2011, then you're just waiting with everybody else(those Nazi's up north. yeah, i said it.). Lee admitted before coming here that he was intending on testing the market, so you don't really know. All you can do is play the percentages, and that's by having both guys here and seeing you if you can sign either to an extension while they're still in red pinstripes.

The Juggler · November 2009

Jearlpam0925 wrote:

The Jeagler wrote:

Jearlpam0925 wrote:

Well, I should've included Shane because he probably carries more cache' in a trade than Werth. Either way, Taylor or Brown will definitely be seeing playing time in the bigs by 2011. I thought Boston is going to make another push for Gonzalez and move Lowell over to 3rd? EDIT: I mean Youkilis.

i would lock werth up right now. no way would i part with him for halladay. we have enough with happ and the minor league guys to get this done.....plus, if we do not get halladay, its not the end of the world. i fully expect cole hamels to return to form next year. that is still a very solid 1-2 punch that not many teams have. and if we need a starter come july, we can always pull a deadline deal like last year.

I disagree. To go out and push forward because you don't even want to worry about the NL and make winning the World Series your #1 goal more than a pipedream that every player has going into the season(think about where we've come???). Werth's never going to be better than he was this year. Someone will need to go when Taylor or Brown are ready to come up. Shane and Werth will both want about 8/9 mil this year, and it will only sky rocket from there if they excel. And, if they don't - which, like i said, I don't think Werth gets any better, nor younger - now your back to paying guys like you paid Burrell and Lieberthal. Overpaid because of one good season or two. It's pitching, pitching, pitching, pitching, pitching. I can't say that enough. And to have a frontline rotation of Lee, Halladay, and Hamels for a year? You kiddin me??? And it increases your shot of locking either Lee or Halladay up to a number that's more reasonable to both sides than just for the player. I do not see a win/lose or a lose/lose in this scenario - nothing but win/win.

ibanez is the one to go dude. you said you think they will be mlb ready by 2011? ....ibanez will be on his way out the door by that time if not sooner. if they trade werth in your scenario, are you comfortable with 38 year old ibanez hitting behind howard next year after what he did after june this past season? werth may not get any better, but i think ibanez is only going to get worse as he gets older.

Jearlpam0925 · November 2009

The Jeagler wrote:

Jearlpam0925 wrote:

The Jeagler wrote:

i would lock werth up right now. no way would i part with him for halladay. we have enough with happ and the minor league guys to get this done.....plus, if we do not get halladay, its not the end of the world. i fully expect cole hamels to return to form next year. that is still a very solid 1-2 punch that not many teams have. and if we need a starter come july, we can always pull a deadline deal like last year.

I disagree. To go out and push forward because you don't even want to worry about the NL and make winning the World Series your #1 goal more than a pipedream that every player has going into the season(think about where we've come???). Werth's never going to be better than he was this year. Someone will need to go when Taylor or Brown are ready to come up. Shane and Werth will both want about 8/9 mil this year, and it will only sky rocket from there if they excel. And, if they don't - which, like i said, I don't think Werth gets any better, nor younger - now your back to paying guys like you paid Burrell and Lieberthal. Overpaid because of one good season or two. It's pitching, pitching, pitching, pitching, pitching. I can't say that enough. And to have a frontline rotation of Lee, Halladay, and Hamels for a year? You kiddin me??? And it increases your shot of locking either Lee or Halladay up to a number that's more reasonable to both sides than just for the player. I do not see a win/lose or a lose/lose in this scenario - nothing but win/win.

ibanez is the one to go dude. you said you think they will be mlb ready by 2011? ....ibanez will be on his way out the door by that time if not sooner. if they trade werth in your scenario, are you comfortable with 38 year old ibanez hitting behind howard next year after what he did after june this past season? werth may not get any better, but i think ibanez is only going to get worse as he gets older.

True. Again, this only reiterates my point that you're not gonna get something for nothing. Either Werth or Victorino will be traded in the next couple years. All this could be a moot point, but Raul's got two more years here and I don't see him going anywhere. Werth's contract is up after next season I believe, and he may be able to entice that deal.

Cliffy6745 · November 2009

Jearlpam0925 wrote:

Cliffy6745 wrote:

The Jeagler wrote:

i would lock werth up right now. no way would i part with him for halladay. we have enough with happ and the minor league guys to get this done.....plus, if we do not get halladay, its not the end of the world. i fully expect cole hamels to return to form next year. that is still a very solid 1-2 punch that not many teams have. and if we need a starter come july, we can always pull a deadline deal like last year.

I personally don't think the Phillies need to trade for him. If I were a Phillies fan I would be thrilled at the idea of having a 1-2 of Lee and Halladay but I think it would definitely be going all in next year.

I think it just increases your chance of locking up one of these guys to a long term deal. Because if you don't get Halladay, then you're putting all your eggs in one basket in hoping that you sign Lee. And, if you wait for Doc in 2011, then you're just waiting with everybody else(those Nazi's up north. yeah, i said it.). Lee admitted before coming here that he was intending on testing the market, so you don't really know. All you can do is play the percentages, and that's by having both guys here and seeing you if you can sign either to an extension while they're still in red pinstripes.

I hear you but I think the Phillies should be able to sign Lee either way. They have plently of money making the World Series the last 2 years. I really don't see them having a problem signing him.

I would be suprised if the Yankees make a run at Doc.

Jearlpam0925 · November 2009

Cliffy6745 wrote:

Jearlpam0925 wrote:

Cliffy6745 wrote:

I personally don't think the Phillies need to trade for him. If I were a Phillies fan I would be thrilled at the idea of having a 1-2 of Lee and Halladay but I think it would definitely be going all in next year.

I think it just increases your chance of locking up one of these guys to a long term deal. Because if you don't get Halladay, then you're putting all your eggs in one basket in hoping that you sign Lee. And, if you wait for Doc in 2011, then you're just waiting with everybody else(those Nazi's up north. yeah, i said it.). Lee admitted before coming here that he was intending on testing the market, so you don't really know. All you can do is play the percentages, and that's by having both guys here and seeing you if you can sign either to an extension while they're still in red pinstripes.

I hear you but I think the Phillies should be able to sign Lee either way. They have plently of money making the World Series the last 2 years. I really don't see them having a problem signing him.

I would be suprised if the Yankees make a run at Doc.

I would not be.

Jearlpam0925 · November 2009

:?

Cliffy6745 · November 2009

I personally don't think they like his age. Cashman is always talking about getting younger and signing a 33 year old pitcher to a long term deal does not fit into that.

Heyman seems to think the Yankees are going to offer Lackey the same/similar deal as AJ. I don't like that.

The Juggler · November 2009

Jearlpam0925 wrote:

The Jeagler wrote:

Jearlpam0925 wrote:

ibanez is the one to go dude. you said you think they will be mlb ready by 2011? ....ibanez will be on his way out the door by that time if not sooner. if they trade werth in your scenario, are you comfortable with 38 year old ibanez hitting behind howard next year after what he did after june this past season? werth may not get any better, but i think ibanez is only going to get worse as he gets older.

True. Again, this only reiterates my point that you're not gonna get something for nothing. Either Werth or Victorino will be traded in the next couple years. All this could be a moot point, but Raul's got two more years here and I don't see him going anywhere. Werth's contract is up after next season I believe, and he may be able to entice that deal.

i got a feeling raul's gonna go all jamie moyer on us sooner than later...and to me, that is a reason to sign werth for 3-4 years. he can play right or left and is a perfect right handed bat behind howard. then you throw brown or taylor (whichever one does not get dealt) in the other side of the outfield.....this isn't the same "small market" team that overpaid for lieby back in the day. i think you might be undervaluing werth's worth on this squad. plus, i think we can get halladay without giving him up so i think this is a moo point. moooo.

Jearlpam0925 · November 2009

Cliffy6745 wrote:

I personally don't think they like his age. Cashman is always talking about getting younger and signing a 33 year old pitcher to a long term deal does not fit into that.

Heyman seems to think the Yankees are going to offer Lackey the same/similar deal as AJ. I don't like that.

There it is! Yeah, I don't see how the Angels don't re-sign him though.

Cliffy6745 · November 2009

Jearlpam0925 wrote:

Cliffy6745 wrote:

I personally don't think they like his age. Cashman is always talking about getting younger and signing a 33 year old pitcher to a long term deal does not fit into that.

Heyman seems to think the Yankees are going to offer Lackey the same/similar deal as AJ. I don't like that.

There it is! Yeah, I don't see how the Angels don't re-sign him though.

Me either. The Heyman stuff seems like pure speculation as well but I would absolutely hate it if the Yanks gave him anything close to AJ's contract

Jearlpam0925 · November 2009

Cliffy6745 wrote:

Jearlpam0925 wrote:

Cliffy6745 wrote:

I personally don't think they like his age. Cashman is always talking about getting younger and signing a 33 year old pitcher to a long term deal does not fit into that.

Heyman seems to think the Yankees are going to offer Lackey the same/similar deal as AJ. I don't like that.

There it is! Yeah, I don't see how the Angels don't re-sign him though.

Me either. The Heyman stuff seems like pure speculation as well but I would absolutely hate it if the Yanks gave him anything close to AJ's contract

Well, he is better than AJ though, so he deserves that kind of money. I just don't see where Anaheim improves if they let him AND Figgins walk.

The Official Philadelphia Phillies 2012 Thread

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