PJ Joins Campaign to close Gitmo

dimitrispearljam · October 2009

Paul Andrews wrote:

For the records, I do belive KSM, Hambali, OBL etc should be tried and if found guilty, locked away forever. I am concerned for the innocent in these places and the way we treat those found guilty. I fully support Pearl Jam in this as I supported them in the 'Not In My Name' campaign against the death penalty.

better ten guilty persons out of prison, instead of one innocent behind bars

jwhite173 · October 2009

Okay... so let's close GITMO. And let's release every single one we don't have proof is a terrorist... Happy?

Now, what do we do with the rest of them? I'm not going to let you release them too.

I'm sure Seattle has a prison with plenty of room. Let's put them there. Let's put them in the prisons of towns of all of these artists.

See, that's the thing. Liberals can criticize all day long against failed policies they don't agree with. But how about offering some solutions.

Don't have any? Then let your elected government handle it.

Another Target commerical will sell more copies of Backspacer than a press release like this. Guess it would cost the band more though.

RoughMix · October 2009

keep on posting about how bad Gitmo is.Blah,blah,blah.
The truth is there are only 245 remaing prisoners it Gitmo.
These are the bad guys from al qaeda and other groups.
There is a reason why there hasn't been a terrorist attack on U.S. soil since 2001.
Also,wait until you hear the uproar when some of these people who want to close gitmo, find out these prisoners/detainees will be housed in their state prisons.
Not in my backyard!

dimitrispearljam · October 2009

Kat wrote:

The fact of the matter is that Guantanamo hurts our troops and makes America less safe. It has created enemies, some of whom surely went on to harm or kill American troops.l

for me, this is 1000% correct..eye for eye doesnt get u anywhere..u dont know how many countries hate America just for that..keep making enemies wqithout a reason is not smart.....and never a president of Usa or a leader of al quada is dead..the ones give the orders..always innocent people end up 2 metres under the ground..

jwhite173 · October 2009

dimitrispearljam wrote:

Kat wrote:

The fact of the matter is that Guantanamo hurts our troops and makes America less safe. It has created enemies, some of whom surely went on to harm or kill American troops.l

for me, this is 1000% correct..eye for eye doesnt get u anywhere..u dont know how many countries hate America just for that..keep making enemies wqithout a reason is not smart.....and never a president of Usa or a leader of al quada is dead..the ones give the orders..always innocent people end up 2 metres under the ground..

Can we keep convicted terrorists in Greece? Or should we just release them all? Maybe they'll come visit your country and bring peace and goodwill to all your friends and family.

dimitrispearljam · October 2009

jwhite173 wrote:

Can we keep convicted terrorists in Greece? Or should we just release them all? Maybe they'll come visit your country and bring peace and goodwill to all your friends and family.

we dont bomb there houses in Greece....we have America and Middle east countrys friends. we are a peacefull country....the terrorist here(we have some internal one) are in jail after a trial....with evidence,dna ,finger print,the guns and stuff....ill give u an exable for my country that happen last night..
a police man slap a citizen with no reason in the street...u know what happen?..the goverment sent the chief of police out of the force to his home...noone that have the power have the right to do what the hell he want.
arrest people,put them in court and put them in jail for ever..if they are guilty..torture them for make them feel fear or becouse of what they believe is not the right option

drinkbigredinstead · October 2009

PJ has the right to support what ever cause they choose, however this is a huge disappointment to me. There are so many other issues the band could focus on, it's sad to see their hatred of Bush take them over. I too was so sick of the crazy speeches during concerts, however I made the best of it and turned those 5 minute rants into bathroom breaks, because I sure as hell wasn't going to miss a song. Yes, I know a lot of their songs are political, but that's what I paid for, not Ed's speeches using soldiers coffins as his soapbox. I wish they could see it from a fans point of view and see what they are doing to their fans...one minute you're singing along, happy as can be, to be at a PJ show, sharing smiles and cheers with your fellow fans. Next thing you know Ed is foaming at the mouth and the unity the fans have goes to shit as the person next to you has a different opinion than you, and you spend the rest of the night giving shit looks to the ahole that keeps elbowing you while jumping up and down instead of the high fives you were giving 10 minutes before. I wish PJ would realize fame doesn't equal wisdom. Oh well, to each their own.

curmudgeoness · October 2009

Nobody is suggesting that we should free, or even be "nice" to terrorists! The individuals being held at Gitmo are suspected, not convicted, of committing crimes. Should they be freed? No!! They should be tried, locked up forever if found guilty, set free if found not guilty.

What is so hard to understand about that?

How is transferring these people to maximum security prisons on U.S. soil "being nice" to them? Are you all aware that there are international laws governing the handling of prisoners of war? Perhaps you see this as "being nice to terrorists," but I see it as keeping our men and women in the armed forces just a little bit safer.

These are basic human rights and legal issues, and they have nothing to do with "liberalism."

Since we have a number of "How would you feel if...?" or "How would Ed feel if...?" comments on this thread, let me pose a different question to you:

How would you feel if, one day, your spouse went batshit crazy, decided s/he was sick of being married to you, and instead of calling a divorce attorney, chose to take a shortcut and go to the police, claiming that you had been bad-touching your children? How would you feel if the police showed up at your job and dragged your supposedly-child-molesting ass out of there in front of all of your co-workers, and hauled you off to jail?

How would you feel if you were left to sit in jail for ten years or so, without a trial, because everyone knows that if you have been accused of molesting your children, it must be true?? I mean, society hates pedophiles, and with good reason. Using the reasoning some of you are exercising, suspected = guilty.

Does that sound far-fetched?? It happened to a cousin of mine, who was able to get cleared of charges and tend to their wrecked life in a reasonable amount of time.

Locking up and torturing people who are guilty of no more than being in the wrong place at the wrong time, or of having pissed off the wrong person, is not making anyone safer. It is not helping to place the real criminals behind bars, and in all likelihood it is just creating more terrorists. I think we all agree that terrorism is evil. Why can we not agree on the need to find the actual terrorists and neutralize them, instead of just assuming that anyone who looks suspicious must be guilty?

Jason P · October 2009

Curmudgeoness' post is the first semi-sane argument I have read so far.

I just want to know which PJ song they played. I'm guessing it was Thumbing My Way although No More would have more ironic appeal.

scottstappsucks · October 2009

Paul Andrews wrote:

scottstappsucks wrote:

I think waterboarding etc. is justified if we know for sure the person subjected to it has information that could save lives, if we do not have intelligence proving it though we shouldn't.

When it comes to closing GitMo I don't really care. I think there are far more important issues like the actual war, the economy etc.

What about the Japanese guards who were executed by the US as war criminals for waterboarding US troops during interorgations during WW2? To use your argument, were they not then justified given the USA used a weapon of mass destruction on two Japanese cities but exectuted none the less? Again, I am well aware the Japanese Imperial Forces conductd numerous atrocities agasint American and Australian troops than can never be excused.

We should be trying to save as many American lives as possible during this war, whether it's hypocritical or not. I want our boys safe over there no matter what. Like I said I don't want people water boarded who most likely do not have information that could save lives, I think there are some situations where we should use it if it being done with assurances that the person it is being done to has information that will save American lives.

dimitrispearljam · October 2009

curmudgeoness wrote:

Nobody is suggesting that we should free, or even be "nice" to terrorists! The individuals being held at Gitmo are suspected, not convicted, of committing crimes. Should they be freed? No!! They should be tried, locked up forever if found guilty, set free if found not guilty.

What is so hard to understand about that?

How is transferring these people to maximum security prisons on U.S. soil "being nice" to them? Are you all aware that there are international laws governing the handling of prisoners of war? Perhaps you see this as "being nice to terrorists," but I see it as keeping our men and women in the armed forces just a little bit safer.

These are basic human rights and legal issues, and they have nothing to do with "liberalism."

Since we have a number of "How would you feel if...?" or "How would Ed feel if...?" comments on this thread, let me pose a different question to you:

How would you feel if, one day, your spouse went batshit crazy, decided s/he was sick of being married to you, and instead of calling a divorce attorney, chose to take a shortcut and go to the police, claiming that you had been bad-touching your children? How would you feel if the police showed up at your job and dragged your supposedly-child-molesting ass out of there in front of all of your co-workers, and hauled you off to jail?

How would you feel if you were left to sit in jail for ten years or so, without a trial, because everyone knows that if you have been accused of molesting your children, it must be true?? I mean, society hates pedophiles, and with good reason. Using the reasoning some of you are exercising, suspected = guilty.

Does that sound far-fetched?? It happened to a cousin of mine, who was able to get cleared of charges and tend to their wrecked life in a reasonable amount of time.

Locking up and torturing people who are guilty of no more than being in the wrong place at the wrong time, or of having pissed off the wrong person, is not making anyone safer. It is not helping to place the real criminals behind bars, and in all likelihood it is just creating more terrorists. I think we all agree that terrorism is evil. Why can we not agree on the need to find the actual terrorists and neutralize them, instead of just assuming that anyone who looks suspicious must be guilty?

+1..btw i m not sure i think was seeing in movies..isnt the national anthem of Usa or something like Pledge of Allegiance in the end says : "with Liberty and justice ...for ALL???"

Paul Andrews · October 2009

curmudgeoness wrote:

Nobody is suggesting that we should free, or even be "nice" to terrorists! The individuals being held at Gitmo are suspected, not convicted, of committing crimes. Should they be freed? No!! They should be tried, locked up forever if found guilty, set free if found not guilty.

What is so hard to understand about that?

How is transferring these people to maximum security prisons on U.S. soil "being nice" to them? Are you all aware that there are international laws governing the handling of prisoners of war? Perhaps you see this as "being nice to terrorists," but I see it as keeping our men and women in the armed forces just a little bit safer.

These are basic human rights and legal issues, and they have nothing to do with "liberalism."

Since we have a number of "How would you feel if...?" or "How would Ed feel if...?" comments on this thread, let me pose a different question to you:

How would you feel if, one day, your spouse went batshit crazy, decided s/he was sick of being married to you, and instead of calling a divorce attorney, chose to take a shortcut and go to the police, claiming that you had been bad-touching your children? How would you feel if the police showed up at your job and dragged your supposedly-child-molesting ass out of there in front of all of your co-workers, and hauled you off to jail?

How would you feel if you were left to sit in jail for ten years or so, without a trial, because everyone knows that if you have been accused of molesting your children, it must be true?? I mean, society hates pedophiles, and with good reason. Using the reasoning some of you are exercising, suspected = guilty.

Does that sound far-fetched?? It happened to a cousin of mine, who was able to get cleared of charges and tend to their wrecked life in a reasonable amount of time.

Locking up and torturing people who are guilty of no more than being in the wrong place at the wrong time, or of having pissed off the wrong person, is not making anyone safer. It is not helping to place the real criminals behind bars, and in all likelihood it is just creating more terrorists. I think we all agree that terrorism is evil. Why can we not agree on the need to find the actual terrorists and neutralize them, instead of just assuming that anyone who looks suspicious must be guilty?

Great post, the point I have been trying to make. Just because Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld et al say someone is guilty is not enough proof for me. I wouldn't trust the skid marks on their underwear unless you had them checked my a handwriting expert. As countries of laws, our constitution says you are innocent until proven guilty and that everyone is entitled to a fair trial. The reason they are being housed at Cuba is to deny then their human rights. I have no problem whatsoever with those fount GUILTY of spending the rest of their lives in supermax prisons like gangbangers and other criminals.

I'm sorry guys, but the last administration and those who blindly supported them did more harm to your country than the terrorists. There was so much goodwill for the USA around the world after 911, but it was squandered by these chicken-hawks. Iraq just made it worse and probably cost you the chance to capture those responsible for 911. Fox News, which is beamed around the world continues this damage. Our Howard administration at he time also tarnished our international reputation and those who know of the 'children overboard' scandal will always remember this dark passage in our history with shame.

Let's face it, most of these people are criminals - murderers and thugs - they deserve to be taken out of society and never returned. I'd have no problem with Australia housing this prison. Given what I've seen on "America's Harshest Prisons" I am sure there is a place where they can be housed. If Bush is so keen on the 'war on terror' maybe Texas can house them.

The other point of this thread is torture. It is roundly accepted - by experts - that the quality of information gained by torture is of vastly lower quality than other methods. The fact the experts also claim torture is used as a rallying point against us and just makes things worse when our boys are captured, and also puts us on questionable moral gounds is enough for me to say we should not torture.

Nowhere in any or my arguments do I support terrorism, nor do I give them any justification for their actions. But terrorists are not jsut Muslim extremists. Throughout history, many groups have resorted to terrorist tactics like the IRA, Tim McVeigh, The Unabomber, Falon Gung, Viet Kong and many more. When it suited America to back terrorists like Bin Laden against the Russians, the practice was deemed acceptabe and these people called 'freedom fighters'. Does anyone remember the Iran-Contra arms scandal - shit Olie North now has his own show on Fox!

As I previously maintained, our Governments have a lot to answer for - usually in the name of greed and powerlust - unfortunately it is the people, the mums and dads and sons and daughters who just want to live in peace who pay the price. Many of these 'terrorists' are pawns in a game that they do not understand - they were indoctrinated into a mind set before they had any idea of an alternate point of view. That does not excuse them at all, but we should not allow ourselves to be pawns in the same game - we're all better than that. Every time we sink to their level, we lose a piece of what we hold dear.

Medals on a wooden mantle. Next to a handsome face.
That the president took for granted.
Writing checks that others pay.

And in all the madness. Thought becomes numb and naive.
So much to talk about there's. Nothing for to say.

It's the same everyday and the wave won't break
Tell you to pray, while the devil's on their shoulder

Laying claim to the take our soldiers save
Does not equate, and the truth's already out there

TouringFan2000 · October 2009

putting aside the "rightness" or "wrongness" of closing Gitmo, i just want to say that i'm always impressed and inspired that PJ is willing to speak out for the causes the band members believe in. they never seem to worry about who will agree or disagree, whether they might lose fans because of an opinion, or whether they might come under fire in the press. at least they use their "fame" as a platform to try to get things done that they feel strongly about. from what i've read about the founding of America and the intent of our founding fathers and mothers, this is pretty much what they wanted from all of us. yet most of us would never do this, especially if we were in the public eye. once again ... bravo Pearl Jam.

goo · October 2009

drinkbigredinstead wrote:

PJ has the right to support what ever cause they choose, however this is a huge disappointment to me. There are so many other issues the band could focus on, it's sad to see their hatred of Bush take them over. I too was so sick of the crazy speeches during concerts, however I made the best of it and turned those 5 minute rants into bathroom breaks, because I sure as hell wasn't going to miss a song. Yes, I know a lot of their songs are political, but that's what I paid for, not Ed's speeches using soldiers coffins as his soapbox. I wish they could see it from a fans point of view and see what they are doing to their fans...one minute you're singing along, happy as can be, to be at a PJ show, sharing smiles and cheers with your fellow fans. Next thing you know Ed is foaming at the mouth and the unity the fans have goes to shit as the person next to you has a different opinion than you, and you spend the rest of the night giving shit looks to the ahole that keeps elbowing you while jumping up and down instead of the high fives you were giving 10 minutes before. I wish PJ would realize fame doesn't equal wisdom. Oh well, to each their own.

thank you. the problem with Ed is that he doesn't have one conservative bone in his body. and since he is the "voice" of the band, his one-sided views reflect on the others and make them look the same way. that may not always be the case. out of 5 different people, views are going to be different. I wonder that if Jeff or Matt ever had the floor and went on a rant, just how much would it differ with the usual we get from Ed. one-sided politics are useless. as I've always said: never be too conservative, never be too liberal. by all means, pick a side. but use common sense, what happens physically when you lean too far to the left or to the right? you're gonna fall over.

TouringFan2000 · October 2009

drinkbigredinstead wrote:

PJ has the right to support what ever cause they choose, however this is a huge disappointment to me. There are so many other issues the band could focus on, it's sad to see their hatred of Bush take them over. I too was so sick of the crazy speeches during concerts, however I made the best of it and turned those 5 minute rants into bathroom breaks, because I sure as hell wasn't going to miss a song. Yes, I know a lot of their songs are political, but that's what I paid for, not Ed's speeches using soldiers coffins as his soapbox. I wish they could see it from a fans point of view and see what they are doing to their fans...one minute you're singing along, happy as can be, to be at a PJ show, sharing smiles and cheers with your fellow fans. Next thing you know Ed is foaming at the mouth and the unity the fans have goes to shit as the person next to you has a different opinion than you, and you spend the rest of the night giving shit looks to the ahole that keeps elbowing you while jumping up and down instead of the high fives you were giving 10 minutes before. I wish PJ would realize fame doesn't equal wisdom. Oh well, to each their own.

umm ... are you familiar with this band? nothing is any different since day 1. ed has always made "speeches" or done some antics onstage, in one form or another. it's part of ed ... it's part of pearl jam. i'm not trying to fuck with you. i just don't know why you're not used to it by now. also, whether or not you agree with what ed is saying or doing, how do you feel about the fact that he's actually willing to openly say or do that stuff? i admire his guts, even when i don't agree with him.

Jerome230 · October 2009

Kind of off-topic, kind of on-topic...Tom Morello of Rage Against the Machine said in a statement:

"Guantanamo is known around the world as one of the places where human beings have been tortured -- from waterboarding to stripping, hooding and forcing detainees into humiliating sexual acts -- playing music for 72 hours in a row at volumes just below that to shatter the eardrums," said Morello.

"Guantanamo may be Dick Cheney's idea of America, but it's not mine. The fact that music I helped create was used in crimes against humanity sickens me," he added.

goo · October 2009

TouringFan2000 wrote:

drinkbigredinstead wrote:

PJ has the right to support what ever cause they choose, however this is a huge disappointment to me. There are so many other issues the band could focus on, it's sad to see their hatred of Bush take them over. I too was so sick of the crazy speeches during concerts, however I made the best of it and turned those 5 minute rants into bathroom breaks, because I sure as hell wasn't going to miss a song. Yes, I know a lot of their songs are political, but that's what I paid for, not Ed's speeches using soldiers coffins as his soapbox. I wish they could see it from a fans point of view and see what they are doing to their fans...one minute you're singing along, happy as can be, to be at a PJ show, sharing smiles and cheers with your fellow fans. Next thing you know Ed is foaming at the mouth and the unity the fans have goes to shit as the person next to you has a different opinion than you, and you spend the rest of the night giving shit looks to the ahole that keeps elbowing you while jumping up and down instead of the high fives you were giving 10 minutes before. I wish PJ would realize fame doesn't equal wisdom. Oh well, to each their own.

umm ... are you familiar with this band? nothing is any different since day 1. ed has always made "speeches" or done some antics onstage, in one form or another. it's part of ed ... it's part of pearl jam. i'm not trying to fuck with you. i just don't know why you're not used to it by now. also, whether or not you agree with what ed is saying or doing, how do you feel about the fact that he's actually willing to openly say or do that stuff? i admire his guts, even when i don't agree with him.

dude, come on. you can get on stage at a rock concert and say anything. guts shmuts. it's not like he's addressing congress. he's up there talking to a bunch of drunk people who came out to hear some rock music and have a good, mindless time. for God's sake, the guy can say nothing but the word "fuck" and people cheer. what's wrong with that picture? I don't care who it is, be it a liberal or conservative entertainer, a concert is NOT the ideal place to get into your politics. like someone said above, it divides the people whose original intent was to get together and enjoy some music, for the sake of MUSIC. if Ed really wants to do something, he should put down his guitar and get into real politics where his views will have true assessment by the experts. maybe that way someone would finally get through to him how wrong he is on certain issues.

Paul Andrews · October 2009

goo wrote:

dude, come on. you can get on stage at a rock concert and say anything. guts shmuts. it's not like he's addressing congress. he's up there talking to a bunch of drunk people who came out to hear some rock music and have a good, mindless time. for God's sake, the guy can say nothing but the word "fuck" and people cheer. what's wrong with that picture? I don't care who it is, be it a liberal or conservative entertainer, a concert is NOT the ideal place to get into your politics. like someone said above, it divides the people whose original intent was to get together and enjoy some music, for the sake of MUSIC. if Ed really wants to do something, he should put down his guitar and get into real politics where his views will have true assessment by the experts. maybe that way someone would finally get through to him how wrong he is on certain issues.

Yes you can gte up on stage and say 'anything' but pearl jam have always been about issues that are close to them, be it the environment, peace, personal libery, the strength and fragility of the human spirit, anti-corruption etc. i don't agree with everything Ed says, but I find myself agreeing with most of it. But the point is not to agree, it is to then look at an issue with an open mind and make an informed decision, not one that the powers that be wold have you blindly follow. The fact Ed and Johnny Ramone were great mates desipte their political differences speaks volumes of the character of both of these men.

The best arguments on this thread are the ones that people have researched and come to an opinion based upon reasoned decision making - not knee jerk reactions. I understand lust for revenge - if my children were ever harmed maliciously, I'd want to kill the person involved - and would probably not rest until I succeeded - but that is why that decision should not be in my hands.

dawitchdoc · October 2009

PLEASE LEAVE THE POLITICS AT HOME WHEN YOU COME TO PHILLY EDDIE. I BOUGHT TICKETS FOR A ROCK CONCERT NOT A POLITICAL RALLY !!

Smellyman · October 2009

dawitchdoc wrote:

PLEASE LEAVE THE POLITICS AT HOME WHEN YOU COME TO PHILLY EDDIE. I BOUGHT TICKETS FOR A ROCK CONCERT NOT A POLITICAL RALLY !!

You actually bought tickets to a PJ concert which often includes political commentary...

but you already knew that.

PJ Joins Campaign to close Gitmo

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